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It seems to me that the game has lots of unnecessary rolling and randomness, and they affect things that don't substantially improve gameplay. I suggest eliminating some of these random elements.

Proposed changes:

- difficult terrain, no more rolling, everyone moves a flat 4". Move through cover units are unaffected by difficult terrain.

- running, no more rolling, everyone can run 4". Fleet, crusader, etc add 2".

- charging, no more rolling, charge 6". Charging through cover subtracts 2". Fleet adds 2".

- over watch, no more rolling buckets of dice on snap shots. Templates and blast grenades inflict two automatic hits (only one model per squad can use a grenade in overwatch). Pistols fire at full BS. Anything else had its chance in the shooting phase.

- eliminate pile in moves, not rolling related. Everyone in a combat within 6" of an enemy model fights (close combat, short range fire, etc). In the movement phase, engaged models must move into base to base contact with an enemy model, or as close as possible.

- look out sir rolls, only one per unit per turn. When allocating a wound to a character or IC, the player may take a leadership test on that character or ICs leadership. If passed, then for the rest of that turn the character or IC may only be allocated wounds after all other models in the unit have been removed as casualties (the character absorbs any spillover wounds). Only one character or IC per unit may LOS in a given player turn. This means players can no longer abuse an ICs invul save to protect the much more numerous grunts around him.

The game needs randomness to simulate the chaos and chance in any battle. But these changes eliminate unnecessary rolling, speed up the game, and do away with game elements that complicate the game without adding to the fun.

All this really benefits is Eldar and SM, it hurts Orks and others etc.

Pretty much what Zebio said. This destroys Orks entirely and gives Eldar another massive benefit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
All this really benefits is Eldar and SM, it hurts Orks and others etc.

There's no way to make positive changes that don't massively benefit the Eldar. It's a testament to how absurdly broken that army is. The Ork fix is easy, give them a special rule "crazed charge" where they charge triple their initiative.

The SM buff is fine for their underused assault units. But these changes also nerf the powerful overwatch from marines, Eldar, and Tau.

I think these changes are far superior to the crazy randomness of a charge that could be 2"-12".

Wait, Marines have a powerful overwatch?

 curran12 wrote:
Wait, Marines have a powerful overwatch?

S4 AP5 rapid fire is very powerful in overwatch.

I'd just add a Movement value to all units and be done with it. Most have a movement value of 6. If you want to run you double that value and forgo shooting. If you are moving through difficult terrain you can only move your base. When you charge you add +3 to your movement value.

You can eliminate fleet too by just adding a +1 to their movement value for all units that have the rule.

I totally agree with the sentiment of removing 'rolling dice just for the sake of it that slows the game down.'

However, I prefer using different methods.
(Using a Mobility stat and modifiers for terrain for example.And remove the need for overwatch by using a more interactive game turn.)

I would change charge distance to a flat 7".

Fleet - Roll an additional D6 when determining run distance and add an additional 2" to charge distances.

 TheSilo wrote:
It seems to me that the game has lots of unnecessary rolling and randomness, and they affect things that don't substantially improve gameplay. I suggest

- Eldar may only select armies using 80% of the agreed points value.

This is the most inelegant solution I've ever heard. If Eldar are 20% better than any other army (and how would this work with Allies or god forbid unbound) they need to be fixed from the ground up not just a hot fix.

Initiative based charging. Keeper of Secrets is very happy with that. 6" move + 20 " charge = 26"

Or Blood Thirsters....12" glide move + 18" charge. 30" charge range

Or Daemon Princes 12" glide + 16" charge = 28"

Basing charge on double Iniitiave (or initiative at all) is pretty poor.

Nurgle units charge 4" max?
Necron Wraiths 4" charge max?

So we have units that can move 12" in the movement phase sometimes with fleet, that then can only charge 4".

Charge distance = movement is far more fair.

Proposed rules are also a huge nerf to fleet, better at moving through terrain (lots of Fleet units have move through cover.), better at running by 2" is meh.

People suggesting movement stats are on a better path. Then make charge = movement.

I can understand wanting fewer rolls, but things like 2 hits from every pistol actually makes marine overwatch better not worse. Right now they get 1 hit for every 6 pistols on average., and 1 hit for every 3 bolters. So 9 marines with bolters get 3 hits in overwatch, in your system since they also have pistols they get 18 hits?

Its a dice game, I like that many aspects are random. However, if you want to eliminate some rolling, try playing a 'low luck' game. I got this idea from a board game I play. This is where you assume average rolls. If the average is a fraction you only roll for the remainder.

For example, 10 bolter shots are targeting marines. Since 9 shots averages a 1 kill, you assume that 1 kill and roll the remaining one shot. You could even customize it and only use low luck for certain parts of the game. For instance you could use low luck to get the number of wounds and still roll all armor saves as normal to keep it from being too predictable.

The absolute first thing you need to do if you want to speed the game up is reduce the number of times a model moves in a single turn.

To start off, Run/fleet type moves need to be made in the movement phase. I don't want to watch you shuffle your 4x30 Orks/Gaunts those 2" forward right after you've already moved them once.

Second is the ridiculous pile in move at every initiative step. This was introduced so fighters wouldn't be cheated out of their attacks by opponents removing casualties from base to base but it is unnecessary. Just allow everyone who was engaged at the start of the fight sub-phase to make their attacks regardless of distance to opponents at their initiative step, and pile in only at the end of combat.

Why not charge 4+d6 inches

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The absolute first thing you need to do if you want to speed the game up is reduce the number of times a model moves in a single turn.

To start off, Run/fleet type moves need to be made in the movement phase. I don't want to watch you shuffle your 4x30 Orks/Gaunts those 2" forward right after you've already moved them once.

Second is the ridiculous pile in move at every initiative step. This was introduced so fighters wouldn't be cheated out of their attacks by opponents removing casualties from base to base but it is unnecessary. Just allow everyone who was engaged at the start of the fight sub-phase to make their attacks regardless of distance to opponents at their initiative step, and pile in only at the end of combat.

These are good suggestions. We could go back to the old city fight assault rule, if you're within 6" of an enemy model in the same combat, then you fight (sword, shooting at close range, throwing rocks, etc). And then in your movement phase you "pile in" models so they can all attack, and they must move towards the nearest enemy model that their unit is engaged with.

Yeah, Cityfight did it well.

The next order of business is random charge distance, but if you wanna go back to 6", I think it is necessary to also drop the whole "casualties removed from the front" thing. This then also makes Look Out Sir completely superfluous, cutting down even more on pointless dice rolls.

As for terrain, I'd make it so it doesn't slow you down at all, but you can't Run through it. This way it still provides a meaningful defense against assault armies closing in but makes everything more streamlined overall.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yeah, Cityfight did it well.

The next order of business is random charge distance, but if you wanna go back to 6", I think it is necessary to also drop the whole "casualties removed from the front" thing. This then also makes Look Out Sir completely superfluous, cutting down even more on pointless dice rolls.

As for terrain, I'd make it so it doesn't slow you down at all, but you can't Run through it. This way it still provides a meaningful defense against assault armies closing in but makes everything more streamlined overall.

I think the nerfed overwatch I propose above is enough to keep pull from the front. I generally like the pull from front, since it makes positioning more important, and based on your movement you might lose that important Sargent. In 3rd your unit would get obliterated except magically your sarge and special weapon trained troopers.

I agree on the look out sir rolls, proposed changes above. Basically you test on his ld once per turn (soldiers are willing to take the hit for more inspirational leaders) and afterwards all wounds must be allocated to the rest of the unit. No more LOS abuse, rolling 2+ character saves on all the AP3 weapons. And only one character per unit can LOS.

I think terrain should still slow down movement, otherwise shooting armies wouldn't really be affected by terrain, only assault models and armies.

I understand both why it's faster to run when you move, but also why it's helpful to run in the shooting phase...the decision often relies on how he shooting went. For non shooting units, most players will do both in the movement phase anyway. As long as they have a set run distance, that should help speed it up a little.