DE razorwing layout

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**vorrax-ghul**

Hey probably just a quick question, I was wondering what is a better choice for the razorwing. I've had it equipped with DL for a while
But I never seem to get any results. More often than not it's missing or not getting through the wounding rolls and I often end a game with it having barely touch anything.

I was considering just having it with disintegrator guns and making it a dedicated troop or smeq killer but then it loses its anti air traits.

Been playing DE for a while but only really casually with friends so it's not crucial I have then best of the best but just found it underwhelming.
Which is sucky cos I love the model and love fliers

Just could do with a few new thoughts maybe even just a success story or too to get my hopes up :p

**Frozocrone**

I take Disintegrators/Splinter Cannon. Monoscythe if I'm taking Covens units, Necro if Kabal.

Personally I find that Haywire/Disintegrators are the new Splinter/Dark Lance for DE.

Does this help against Zooming Flyers? No not really, but you're DE, you should be fast enough to evade them.

**TheNewBlood**

I get the sense that the Razorwing is best left to hunt infantry, and the Voidraven is better off hunting other flyers and AA.

**vipoid**

The thing is, dark lances are one of the worst, most overcosted anti-tank guns in the game. It takes an average of 9 just to kill a Chimera, so the Razorwing isn't going to accomplish much against vehicles with just two.

My suggestion would be to instead focus on using the base missiles to obliterate an infantry squad when it first arrives. After that, I'd use it to do a bit of damage to ground targets with its disintegrators or dark lances.

Personally, I often don't bother upgrading the disintegrators, simply because I don't have the points to do so. But, if I have the points, I'd probably give it Dark Lances so that it can at least hurt vehicles (it probably won't kill them alone, but it might well strip the last hull point off one). But, it's main role is anti-infantry, and I'd only go after other stuff once all its missiles are gone (or there's no infantry on the board).

I'd also advise firing all 4 missiles when it first arrives (assuming there's a good target, obviously). Unless your target has 2+ saves and/or has very few models, in which case you're probably better off firing 2 missiles and 2 disintegrators or dark lances. But, for all other targets, I'd suggest no half-measures.

**Jimsolo**

The best way I've found to run a Razorwing is from the sidelines. Regardless of loadout, I just don't get good performance from them in games. Other folks have had better experiences, I believe.

**vorrax-ghul**

I see so many list running DL I just can't fathom it.
I still feel even with disintegrators it could hassle if nothing else other weak fliers. Haven't tried it as of yet but we'll see.

Thanks for the feed back as well guys.

**Alcibiades**

Not meaning to start a flame here, but with respect to the Dark Lances vs. Imperial lascannons debate (supposedly DLs are awful).

Dark Lances are on very fast, deep striking platforms. Like the Dark Eldar army as a whole, they are supposed to strike by concentrating fire at weak points, not lined up in front of a Chimera shooting at its front armor.

**vipoid**

Alcibiades wrote:
Not meaning to start a flame here, but with respect to the Dark Lances vs. Imperial lascannons debate (supposedly DLs are awful).

Dark Lances are on very fast, deep striking platforms. Like the Dark Eldar army as a whole, they are supposed to strike by concentrating fire at weak points, not lined up in front of a Chimera shooting at its front armor.

Sorry, but that's just a pathetic argument.

Considering the price DE pay for their mobility, they should be using it to get an actual advantage out of already good weapons. They shouldn't be forced to do so just to make their weapons functional. Though I suspect you'd get on very well with the current design team, who can't seem to grasp the principle of a 'glass cannon' and have instead gone with 'glass pea-shooter'.

Furthermore, this ignores that many vehicles are not so easily hit on side armour, and may even have identical side and front armour. Moreover, the idea that DE vehicles can always deep strike exactly in position to hit a vehicle's weak facing (assuming it even has one) is absurd.

**vorrax-ghul**

I find that most vehicles are already around AV 12 anyway so the lance rule seems more like speed stripes than a helpful bonus.

And even then DE are very maneuverable and side amour is a breeze to hit which makes the likes of a Leman Russ or perhaps Hammer heads even more frustrating. All that speed and you're still at square one.

It just feels like lance is a novelty.

**vipoid**

vorrax-ghul wrote:
I find that most vehicles are already around AV 12 anyway so the lance rule seems more like speed stripes than a helpful bonus.

And even then DE are very maneuverable and side amour is a breeze to hit which makes the likes of a Leman Russ or perhaps Hammer heads even more frustrating. All that speed and you're still at square one.

It just feels like lance is a novelty.

I know what you mean. The other aspect is that the Dark Lance treats AV13+ as AV12. People look at this and think Dark Lances are amazing. They all seem to forget that Dark Lances are crap against AV12.

Going back to the Lascannon comparison:

Against AV10, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range
Against AV11, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range
Against AV12, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range
Against AV13, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -12" range
Against AV14, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with +1S and -12" range

So, a Dark Lance is better against AV14, but worse against all others. And, let's not forget that Lascannons aren't good anti-vehicle weapons to begin with.

The difference is, marines can easily drop meltas on the backfield turn 1 with drop pods to deal with high-AV vehicles. In contrast, DE pay a 65pt character tax on their drop pods, and even their elites can't take meltas - just more dark lances.

**Drasius**

I guess you'll just have to do with the multitude of haywire blasters you've got that always glance on a 2+ and can be taken in large numbers. Oh woe is you, whatever will you do against vehicles?

**vipoid**

Drasius wrote:
I guess you'll just have to do with the multitude of haywire blasters you've got that always glance on a 2+ and can be taken in large numbers. Oh woe is you, whatever will you do against vehicles?

By what definition is '4' a large number?

Also, I'm not sure one FA choice constitutes a "multitude".

But, who cares about facts, right?

**krodarklorr**

The better choice of loadout for the Razorwing is the Crimson Hunter.

**Jimsolo**

Alcibiades wrote:
Not meaning to start a flame here, but with respect to the Dark Lances vs. Imperial lascannons debate (supposedly DLs are awful).

Dark Lances are on very fast, deep striking platforms. Like the Dark Eldar army as a whole, they are supposed to strike by concentrating fire at weak points, not lined up in front of a Chimera shooting at its front armor.

I'm not arguing the firing platform is amazing (it is!), but that doesn't make DL better against vehicles, just more survivable. I just think it takes far more lances to put down a tank than it should for an anti-armor mainstay.

Drasius wrote:
I guess you'll just have to do with the multitude of haywire blasters you've got that always glance on a 2+ and can be taken in large numbers. Oh woe is you, whatever will you do against vehicles?

Lolwut?

We have two units that can take HWBs in multiples. One of which is pathetically fragile and folds like a cheap suit to sustained fire, the other of which is 110 points per model before upgrades.

**Frozocrone**

Jimsolo wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Not meaning to start a flame here, but with respect to the Dark Lances vs. Imperial lascannons debate (supposedly DLs are awful).

Dark Lances are on very fast, deep striking platforms. Like the Dark Eldar army as a whole, they are supposed to strike by concentrating fire at weak points, not lined up in front of a Chimera shooting at its front armor.

I'm not arguing the firing platform is amazing (it is!), but that doesn't make DL better against vehicles, just more survivable. I just think it takes far more lances to put down a tank than it should for an anti-armor mainstay.

Drasius wrote:
I guess you'll just have to do with the multitude of haywire blasters you've got that always glance on a 2+ and can be taken in large numbers. Oh woe is you, whatever will you do against vehicles?

Lolwut?

We have two units that can take HWBs in multiples. One of which is pathetically fragile and folds like a cheap suit to sustained fire, the other of which is 110 points per model before upgrades.

I kinda want to run 3 Talos w/ TL Haywire Blasters just to see how well they perform. Maybe two or three units.

**vipoid**

Frozocrone wrote:

I kinda want to run 3 Talos w/ TL Haywire Blasters just to see how well they perform. Maybe two or three units.

If you get to 5, you can cash them in to the Covens book for some better rules.

Jimsolo wrote:
The best way I've found to run a Razorwing is from the sidelines. Regardless of loadout, I just don't get good performance from them in games. Other folks have had better experiences, I believe.

I meant to comment on this earlier, because I actually agree with you.

I won't say that I've never got good results from the Razorwing, but it's very rare for it to accomplish much. Usually it's missiles either don't have a good target, or have a good target but bounce off anyway. And, once they're gone, it might as well be a flying toaster for all the good it does.

**Jimsolo**

Frozocrone wrote:
I kinda want to run 3 Talos w/ TL Haywire Blasters just to see how well they perform. Maybe two or three units.

I've run CTCs that way before so I could pop transports and charge the chewy center. Works kinda.

**TheNewBlood**

So if the Razorwing isn't any good, is the Voidraven any better? The S9 Void Lances and the Void Mine seem a lot more powerful.

**krodarklorr**

TheNewBlood wrote:
So if the Razorwing isn't any good, is the Voidraven any better? The S9 Void Lances and the Void Mine seem a lot more powerful.

Not for the price you pay.

**vipoid**

TheNewBlood wrote:
So if the Razorwing isn't any good, is the Voidraven any better? The S9 Void Lances and the Void Mine seem a lot more powerful.

The issue with the voidraven is that it's insanely expensive for an AV10 bomber with a single bomb, and if you want any missiles than it's cost jumps to 200pts.

The only 'advantage' I can think off is that it's a HS choice, and so doesn't compete with Reavers and Scourges.

**vorrax-ghul**

vipoid The issue with the voidraven is that it's insanely expensive for an AV10 bomber with a single bomb, and if you want any missiles than it's cost jumps to 200pts.

And even then you don't want to be targeting troops with missiles when you'll want the most out of your void lances. Implosions always seem to scatter for me anyway.

It's funny how a race that supposedly can raid a planet in hours with out actually touching the surface pays so much to get a little bit of air control.

**dominuschao**

OP- Try the razorwing with disi's, sc, necros, ns, it's much better. It's a solid anti infantry and a great anti horde platform. Amazing even, with proper setup. It's also good against flyrants. I would not recommend popping all missiles as your 'default' although there are times when obviously it's the right move. Now if your running lances its the right move more often simply to maximize your split weaponry. Night shields are it's anti flyer. Allowing it to last longer and keep them occupied = mission accomplished.

**vorrax-ghul**

@dominuschao

Thanks, i'll give it a go

**vipoid**

With regard to disintegrators, they never do anything for me (regardless of platform).

**vorrax-ghul**

Even with the 3 shots? its just such a nice help to raiders out put imo.

We've just established that lances are underwhelming so wouldn't D cannons be the best (and only ) alternative?

**vipoid**

vorrax-ghul wrote:
Even with the 3 shots? its just such a nice help to raiders out put imo.

The trouble is, on overage one of those 3 shots misses, and another will fail to wound 2/3 of the time against even T4. And, that's before any invulnerable, cover and/or FNP the target might have.

I've heard others have good results with them, but they just don't do anything for me.

vorrax-ghul wrote:

We've just established that lances are underwhelming so wouldn't D cannons be the best (and only ) alternative?

D weapons certainly would be a nice alternative.

Anyway, I think Dark Lances and Disintegrators are *both* bad weapons, but the latter are at least slightly cheaper. So there's that.

My point was more that I wouldn't take the Razorwing for the disintegrators, if you see what I mean.

**dominuschao**

A single disi cannon can be hit or miss BUT its still an ap2 weapon which forces a conundrum with jink and wounds meq on 3s, both of which are key in most metas right now. 2 disi's otoh and a splinter cannon is on par with a disi ravager then add missiles making it a superb anti infantry platform. Again setup will make it really shine (tank shock, forcing assaults on vehicles and so on).

Been playing DE for a while but only really casually with friends so it's not crucial I have then best of the best but just found it underwhelming.
Which is sucky cos I love the model and love fliers

Just could do with a few new thoughts maybe even just a success story or too to get my hopes up :p

Well I've dropped FMCs in one round. Its also fantastic at setting up brutal retaliation on hordes as I said above. I'm flying out of state in less than 3 wks for some games and specific opponents I know will include nid hordes so I'm bringing mine for sure. I also recently had mine survive the full attention of a stormraven for an entire game while still inflicting damage which is pretty much the same as destroying it, due largely to night shields btw.

Overall its a solid ship not busted good and not worthless either like say the former nephilim but honestly I feel that the perspective of the advice needs to be taken into account or even prefaced.. "hey dude I play ITC lists exclusively so everything not scatbikes and GMCs is trash". If your playing a friendly environment the razorwing is fine and a good alternative to spamming more ravagers/venoms.

**vorrax-ghul**

vipoid wrote:

The trouble is, on overage one of those 3 shots misses, and another will fail to wound 2/3 of the time against even T4. And, that's before any invulnerable, cover and/or FNP the target might have.

I've heard others have good results with them, but they just don't do anything for me.

Anyway, I think Dark Lances and Disintegrators are *both* bad weapons, but the latter are at least slightly cheaper. So there's that.

My point was more that I wouldn't take the Razorwing for the disintegrators, if you see what I mean.

I totally get what you mean, what do you prefer instead? I was making the point that if disi cannons are likely to miss Lances don't stand a chance. I just can't shake my love for the razorwing :p

@dominuschao so did you actually strip a few hull points with disi cannons? That is another reason to take them if they can still threaten fliers.

**vipoid**

vorrax-ghul wrote:

I totally get what you mean, what do you prefer instead? I was making the point that if disi cannons are likely to miss Lances don't stand a chance. I just can't shake my love for the razorwing :p

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My point was that I'd only ever take the Razorwing for the missiles - not for the Disintegrators or Dark Lances.

**dominuschao**

vorrax-ghul wrote:
vipoid wrote:

The trouble is, on overage one of those 3 shots misses, and another will fail to wound 2/3 of the time against even T4. And, that's before any invulnerable, cover and/or FNP the target might have.

I've heard others have good results with them, but they just don't do anything for me.

Anyway, I think Dark Lances and Disintegrators are *both* bad weapons, but the latter are at least slightly cheaper. So there's that.

My point was more that I wouldn't take the Razorwing for the disintegrators, if you see what I mean.

I totally get what you mean, what do you prefer instead? I was making the point that if disi cannons are likely to miss Lances don't stand a chance. I just can't shake my love for the razorwing :p

@dominuschao so did you actually strip a few hull points with disi cannons? That is another reason to take them if they can still threaten fliers.

On the raven no it's av12. Ripping up infantry got its attention bu t all I did was survive lol. It's a bad anti aircraft unit. My personal experience is it's better not to try but I know others prefer the lances for that very reason in which case they won't upgrade the SC.