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So I've been back into the hobby for almost a year now, and spend quite a lot of time at my local GW.

In that time there has been 3 managers, and all have had a different policy on Forgeworld models. That they even need a policy struck me as odd at first. Anyway, I just sit on the sidelines because I don't own any Forgeworld models.

Our new manager has now essentially banned all Forgeworld models from being played or painted in store. As 90% of the regulars are currently 30K mad, some exclusively playing 30k and buying Forgeworld, it was a surprising decision by the store manager.

Why do you think GW managers always have to have policies on Forgeworld? Is it head office applying pressure? Are all GW stores the same with this disapproval of FW? Why would a store want to discourage the playing and collecting of it's luxury models?

And I guess this discussion goes further into GW and FW's relationship. Why is it so perculiar?

Gw shop managers are salty about forgeworld because they cant sell it in their shops thus it does nothing for their sales requirements

As I understand things, GW are bringing FW models into their shops as a standard stock item, so it won't make sense to ban them from play in the same shop.

 Bottle wrote:
And I guess this discussion goes further into GW and FW's relationship. Why is it so perculiar?

Because the manager appreantly doesn't know what he's talking about. Tell him you're bringing FW models and if he doesn't like it, that's too bad. If he persists, and it's a store you otherwise want to keep going to, give corporate a ring and have them set him straight.

Because it is likely all the 30k player are the reason you keep getting new manager, if they can't sell a enough product they get replaced. Same with any retail job really, just in GW shops there are many factors normal retail don't have to deal with.

^Yup. If the proportion of 30k players is as high as you say, then I can't imagine they're doing an awful lot of purchasing in the store.

I imagine the manager is hoping/intending that banning 30k will encourage those customers to engage in 40k or even AOS, so that if people see them painting or playing in store and take an interest then they can be pointed towards the relevant products. If that many regulars are painting or playing with FW stuff and someone goes 'oh, that looks cool' the manager has to point them to a website the sales from which do not contribute to his targets.

 namiel wrote:
Gw shop managers are salty about forgeworld because they cant sell it in their shops thus it does nothing for their sales requirements

This. The last thing the manager wants is people coming into his shop and seeing models that they can't purchase from him. To him, someone bringing FW into the store is no different than someone bringing X-Wing or Mantic figs and playing on the store's tables. He lives off of sales of the product he carries, not the product he doesn't.

Noir wrote:Because it is likely all the 30k player are the reason you keep getting new manager, if they can't sell a enough product they get replaced. Same with any retail job really, just in GW shops there are many factors normal retail don't have to deal with.

sockwithaticket wrote:^Yup. If the proportion of 30k players is as high as you say, then I can't imagine they're doing an awful lot of purchasing in the store.

I imagine the manager is hoping/intending that banning 30k will encourage those customers to engage in 40k or even AOS, so that if people see them painting or playing in store and take an interest then they can be pointed towards the relevant products. If that many regulars are painting or playing with FW stuff and someone goes 'oh, that looks cool' the manager has to point them to a website the sales from which do not contribute to his targets.

I'd say that sounds likely, but unless OP is a personal friend with his local manager that's not really his problem.

While the manager might need to do something to bring sales back to his own store it is really an internal GW problem, and this is not a way to fix it, this is just going to kill the community at that store if the players have any other place to play (or any garages they can set tables up in).

This all makes sense. As mentioned I don't play with any Forgeworld models and so this does not affect me in any way. However it begs the question of why Forgeworld isn't at least available as deliverable to store, like 'direct only' items.

Do GW simply not have the logistics, or is there a deeper reason?

 Bottle wrote:
This all makes sense. As mentioned I don't play with any Forgeworld models and so this does not affect me in any way. However it begs the question of why Forgeworld isn't at least available as deliverable to store, like 'direct only' items.

Do GW simply not have the logistics, or is there a deeper reason?

Because GW. A pithy response that is true enough.

A deeper question perhaps is this. In the UK at least, If GW decides to put FW into its retail chain aren't they then under obligation to ensure independents are able to order and stock the same lines?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As I understand things, GW are bringing FW models into their shops as a standard stock item, so it won't make sense to ban them from play in the same shop.

The rumour keeps appearing, but I think it is highly unlikely.

They'd have to cast hundreds of FW models (which are hand-cast, lots of man-hours there) to stock all the stores with a sizable FW range, even as they shrink stores, reduce shelf-space with multi-multi-multi-part kits and ever more direct-only stuff. And they have to keep doing that with new Forge World releases, creating an enormous pile of unsold FW-stock sitting ... somewhere .. for a lot of money.

Doesn't add up. If there really is a kit they want to have sitting in all stores, it's probably more economical to make a plastic-mould for it and sell it under the GW-main brand.

FW mass-producing their stuff would be a hilarious thing, they've already got enough trouble keeping a consistent quality as is right now.

Playing armies in store that aren't being bought or are for sale in store? Ban them right there and then. No different from turning up with WM/H stuff and expecting to play it.

The store manager is being an ass, and I doubt management would be very happy with him upsetting customers like that. It probably is down to the fact that you can't buy those in store, or it could be down to him having people complaining about "FW is OP!". Either way he may not like it, but it is very short sighted and I doubt very much that GW would like that as he is annoying customers. It is different to using other companies minis as they are all GW, and the general public don't give a dam about your corporate structure or internal politics.

It's the same thing I have to keep telling people places I work, when people call they don't give a dam what department they are speaking too, all they see is the company. You never say "that is not my problem". Whilst you are working you are the face of the company, no matter who you are talking to.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Because GW. A pithy response that is true enough.

A deeper question perhaps is this. In the UK at least, If GW decides to put FW into its retail chain aren't they then under obligation to ensure independents are able to order and stock the same lines?

No, not as far as I know. They have no legal obligation. However independents may well kick up a fuss.

Don't worry; since "the GW hobby" is about collecting, soon all playing will be banned form the stores.

He just doesn't want stuff in store that can't be ordered/bought through him. Because his targets are hard enough without stuff he can't sell being showcased.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

A deeper question perhaps is this. In the UK at least, If GW decides to put FW into its retail chain aren't they then under obligation to ensure independents are able to order and stock the same lines?

I believe so; if a GW store can stock it, then I think it has to be available for an indy, due to competition laws. I don't see why they can't treat it as direct only though.

I doubt they'll ever stock all but a minimal amount of resin FW stuff - it's just too slow to product (they'd need to ship out like 350 of everything to get the stock up to 1). Even WHW doesn't keep a stock of most of the range (unless that's changed with the FW store?).

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Playing armies in store that aren't being bought or are for sale in store? Ban them right there and then. No different from turning up with WM/H stuff and expecting to play it.

Technically true. However that doesn't mean it's not a dumb analogy.

What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever want to give people a reason NOT to come to your store in retail.


Forgeworld is a part of Games Workshop, the money that FW take in goes to GW.
Yes it might suck for the store if they aren't hitting their targets because people have bought elsewhere, but if you go down the road of 'you didn't buy it from me you can't play here' where do you stop?

Lets say he still doesn't hit his target, what's next, should he ban people from using the direct only items they can't buy from him? Second hand models? Old OOP kits that can't be bought anymore? Dusty old collections from people returning to the game? Any models that doesn't have a receipt from his store?

The 'you didn't buy it here so you can't use it' mentality is toxic to a community. Ultimately will lead to people simply going somewhere they can play, and as much as people might want to think 'good ridden to them, they bought nothing so they were simply a waste of space' having customers in your store is always good as it gives you the chance to sell them impulse buy items. A decent manager should be able to strike up a fluff conversation and turn that into a BL book sale, or talk them into a blister here and there. I can't believe there are people out there who spent literally zero dollars in their stores. But even then, if they leave and go play in their garage or another store, you risk paying customers following. You risk having an empty, sad looking, store that does not entice people in from off the street instead of a store full of people clearly having fun and actively showing off the product you're trying to sell. You risk anyone those people bring into the hobby via word of mouth (still GWs biggest advertising tool) bringing them in via a method other than your store, potentially missing out on hundreds or thousands of dollars.


Bad for the players, bad for the store, sounds like a dumb manager.
/rant

jonolikespie wrote:
I'd say that sounds likely, but unless OP is a personal friend with his local manager that's not really his problem.

It's a problem for all the 30K players, though.

this is just going to kill the community at that store

Just as dead as if the store closed because no managers could make their targets there.

jonolikespie wrote:
What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

When 90% of resident gamers just use models that have to be bought outside the store, at least going by Bottle's OP, it might be a stretch to call them customers. In a dispassionate viewpoint they're unavailable resources, or potential resources, or whatever. They're there, but the manager can't benefit from them. They're effectively nonexistant and irrelevant at best, burdens and space-hoggers at worst.

It does sound bad though, doesn't it? Banning a gamer's minis and shoving them out of the shop? It's nothing new. I've first-hand experience of that, when GW simultaneously banned SGs and chucked the then-current batch of veterans out of the Belfast shop, way back when. TBH, best thing that might have happened to my hobby.

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever want to give people a reason NOT to come to your store in retail.

People setting up a table in the middle of the shop and displaying what are, to the manager's situation, effectively a competitor's products, might be one.

Forgeworld is a part of Games Workshop, the money that FW take in goes to GW.

Yes it might suck for the store if they aren't hitting their targets because people have bought elsewhere

That's a problem with the tragedy of the commons example, isn't it? Bit difficult to be all swept up in the cause of the greater good when the 'greater good' cans you for not being mercenary enough. What makes the manager's livelihood less important than grown guys who apparently can't organise anywhere else to play with their toy soldiers?

but if you go down the road of 'you didn't buy it from me you can't play here' where do you stop?

Lets say he still doesn't hit his target, what's next, should he ban people from using the direct only items they can't buy from him?

If a good many core or high-end kits for the given army can still be bought in-store, it's not quite the same thing.

Second hand models? Old OOP kits that can't be bought anymore? Dusty old collections from people returning to the game?

If 90% of gamers in a shop use second hand minis, you have a point. Dusty old collections might be similarly uncommon, with a lessened impact because the old armies aren't displaying products that can be easily bought elsewhere. And might not be all that more desirable to younger gamers jonesing for grav-sleds and centurions anyway. Then, especially with the grand tradition of GW rules churn, there's a chance those old armies might yet be added to with in-store purchases.

The 'you didn't buy it here so you can't use it' mentality is toxic to a community.

There's a train of thought that GW shops don't exactly foster healthy gaming communities anyway. Prolific ones, definitely, but...

Ultimately will lead to people simply going somewhere they can play, and as much as people might want to think 'good ridden to them, they bought nothing so they were simply a waste of space' having customers in your store is always good as it gives you the chance to sell them impulse buy items.

What if they're only buying FW 30K models?

A decent manager should be able to strike up a fluff conversation and turn that into a BL book sale, or talk them into a blister here and there.

A decent manager should realise what 90% of their regulars are buying and playing, and a blister here and there is probably not going to hit many targets.

But even then, if they leave and go play in their garage or another store, you risk paying customers following.

The ones who don't play 30K, or kids and parents coming in for birthday presents etc.?

You risk having an empty, sad looking, store that does not entice people in from off the street

Much as it stung us at the time, GW Belfast quickly filled up again.

instead of a store full of people clearly having fun and actively showing off the product you're trying to sell.

What, Forgeworld minis?

You risk anyone those people bring into the hobby via word of mouth (still GWs biggest advertising tool) bringing them in via a method other than your store, potentially missing out on hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Welcome to Dakka. Let me tell you about this company called Games Workshop...

Alternatively, given the phobia of gamers to even look at a game unless a dozen people within a hundred yards already play it, if the word of mouth from 90% of those gamers is "I love 30K! Look at this badass FW model!", how do you think that might play out?

Bad for the players, bad for the store, sounds like a dumb manager.
/rant

Not really, not really, and... not really.

I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, far from it, and there's a lot of supposition on both sides here, IMO; but whatcha gonna do? Something has to give, somewhere.

Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand. The Manager told me they could get quite a fuss over things if they get caught by the higher ups with lots of people prancing with FW models around as they don't get sold in their stores. Kinda logical to me, you ain't playing things like Magic or Warmachine there either.. that would be plain stupid... You know, it's a thing called logic.

 jonolikespie wrote:

What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever want to give people a reason NOT to come to your store in retail.

What do you call people that don't buy in your store then? They aren't customers then. The managers rather keep their job...

OP, which store is this (asking for a friend... )?

Ok do people actually think that driving away potential customers when you already can't hit your targets and when the company as a whole is trying to GROW could be an even remotely good idea.

Once again, these people are potential customers. Does removing them somehow directly increase sales? Of course not. You are losing at least some potential sales for what gain? Not to mention the ill will this will cause which is already a huge problem for GW when it comes to word of mouth.

Then how does pushing people away from the GW ecosystem help them grow? These people are buying FW and playing it in a GW store, directly contributing to Games Workshop. Pushing them out has the potential to lose them as customers. Again, what gain is there for a potential loss?

Best case scenario here is what, the manager frees up space in his store?

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand. The Manager told me they could get quite a fuss over things if they get caught by the higher ups with lots of people prancing with FW models around as they don't get sold in their stores. Kinda logical to me, you ain't playing things like Magic or Warmachine there either.. that would be plain stupid... You know, it's a thing called logic.

What's 'logical' about not getting to use GW models in a GW store?

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand.

Where is this store?

 Bookwrack wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand. The Manager told me they could get quite a fuss over things if they get caught by the higher ups with lots of people prancing with FW models around as they don't get sold in their stores. Kinda logical to me, you ain't playing things like Magic or Warmachine there either.. that would be plain stupid... You know, it's a thing called logic.

What's 'logical' about not getting to use GW models in a GW store?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

I don't get turned away from a Toyota dealership if I take my Scion in for service because ultimately they are the same company. These policies by GW (not selling FW in GW stores, or allowing FW purchases made in store to count towards a store's sales goal) and the policies of individual store managers (not allowing FW in stores) are pants on the head STUPID. Why should a customer have to sit down and perform mental gymnastics before bringing their GW items into a GW store to paint or play?

There is no logic here, other than GW's own brand of "logic" regarding competition between themselves.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Playing armies in store that aren't being bought or are for sale in store? Ban them right there and then. No different from turning up with WM/H stuff and expecting to play it.

Technically true. However that doesn't mean it's not a dumb analogy.

What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

No, they buy another army as they love space marines and want to play them.

It's a result of stores that sell GW product competing with each other. If they don't move as much GW product as the other store then they get penalized. So, any activity that doesn't result in them selling GW product is discouraged.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Playing armies in store that aren't being bought or are for sale in store? Ban them right there and then. No different from turning up with WM/H stuff and expecting to play it.

Technically true. However that doesn't mean it's not a dumb analogy.

What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

No, they buy another army as they love space marines and want to play them.

That would be GW view on it and AOS new space marines seem to back this up.

Not even painting? Come on, that's just ridiculous.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

What's 'logical' about not getting to use GW models in a GW store?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Unless they're not actually 'mainstream' GW models that you can buy or order in-store.

I don't get turned away from a Toyota dealership if I take my Scion in for service because ultimately they are the same company.

I'll bet when you're considering a new car, those individual guys on commission would much rather you bought a Toyota, though.

And in the meantime, could you please stop driving your Scion round and round the lot, honking your horn?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As I understand things, GW are bringing FW models into their shops as a standard stock item, so it won't make sense to ban them from play in the same shop.

The rumour keeps appearing, but I think it is highly unlikely.

They'd have to cast hundreds of FW models (which are hand-cast, lots of man-hours there) to stock all the stores with a sizable FW range, even as they shrink stores, reduce shelf-space with multi-multi-multi-part kits and ever more direct-only stuff. And they have to keep doing that with new Forge World releases, creating an enormous pile of unsold FW-stock sitting ... somewhere .. for a lot of money.

Doesn't add up. If there really is a kit they want to have sitting in all stores, it's probably more economical to make a plastic-mould for it and sell it under the GW-main brand.

Agreed. Enter the plastic 30K sprues we've seen...