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I just finshed Betrayer and I remembered that it made reference the a battle between the SW and the WE. Does anyone remember what the name of that battle was and if there is a book or fluff regarding it? I remeber angron and russ got into an argument and then someone from the legion shot and all hell broke loose. For some reason i want to say it was battle of the fang but that was vs. magnus. Let me know

Battle of the fang happened after Russ had left and was against Magnus.

Russ was sent to talk to Angron during the great crusade regarding his methods (from what I remember) they ended up having a fight and then their marines jumped in as well.

night of the wolf. The full fluff of it is (which was covered in it's entirety in betrayer, IIRC): Russ got pissy and Angron for being to violent, and attacked him and his legion without permission. Angron kicked the gak out of Russ, however he ended up surrounded by space wolves while his legion was fighting a loosing battle to get to him. Russ did it to pull him into heel, and Angron didn't learn the lesson. Lorgar pointed out that Russ was also trying to show Angron the damage he is causing to his legion with his reckless actions + the butchers nails.


Battle of the fang was after Russ dissapeared, and Magnus + Co. attacked the fang in revenge for prospero (and also made it impossible for the Wolves to have successors. take that you team killing furry bums.)

Angron kicked the gak out of Russ, however he ended up surrounded by space wolves while his legion was fighting a loosing battle to get to him. Russ did it to pull him into heel, and Angron didn't learn the lesson. Lorgar pointed out that Russ was also trying to show Angron the damage he is causing to his legion with his reckless actions + the butchers nails.

That is as much Russ not getting it as Angron, though.

The World Eaters weren't trying to rescue Angron - they were just attacking (and causing serious casualties). What Russ (and Lorgar) didn't get was that Angron didn't care if he died - and (since there was no way in hell Russ could overpower him without killing him) that meant that ultimately, Russ had nothing to threaten him with, leaving him with running away as his only option.

Russ got pissy and Angron for being to violent, and attacked him and his legion without permission

It didn't help that whilst Angron has many, many personality flaws, one positive trait he does have is that he's honest.

Saying exactly what he thought of both Russ and the Emperor (I think "Lying Hypocrite" was about the mildest) didn't exactly help calm matters.

locarno24 wrote:
That is as much Russ not getting it as Angron, though.

The World Eaters weren't trying to rescue Angron - they were just attacking (and causing serious casualties). What Russ (and Lorgar) didn't get was that Angron didn't care if he died

That fact was never in doubt, though. Russ and Lorgar know full well that Angron doesn't care if he dies and that his legion is dumb- they just don't care because Angron's life is not his own. While Angron dying might not matter to Angron, it does matter to his legion and the Imperium at large, whom he's a major asset too. Thus it's to the Imperium's benefit to make Angron tighten up and fight smarter.

Now, was Russ wasting his time? Yeah, you can't force reason into people who are insane- but you can't really fault him for trying.

Now, was Russ wasting his time? Yeah, you can't force reason into people who are insane- but you can't really fault him for trying.

Actually, you can. Whilst you can argue who shot first, or who won, the only reason the Night of the Wolf happened in the first place was because Russ took it upon himself to try and give Angron orders - turning up and imperiously demanding he stand down and return to Terra, with absolutely no authority to do so.

If he was less of a [insert one of the assorted insults Angron calls him], Russ might have either sent a delegatus, or - even better - come to talk to him directly without bringing the Rout along with him.

Also note that yes, the World Eaters disquieted people and caused a lot of collateral damage, but the Rout are hinted as being responsible for just as many substantive massacres: see the commentary in - I think it's "Know No Fear?" - where Gulliman pointedly chooses to use the Fenrisian term to describe terracidal massacres:

This kind of total war, this process of razing, is most commonly seen with shock or hyper-aggressive forces. The warriors of Angron, my brother primarch of the XII Legion, refer to it as Totality, and even then they employ it rarely to its full extent. From my brother Russ, and the Wurgen war-cant of the Vlka Fenryka we borrow the term 'Skira Vordrotta', which may most usefully be rendered as System Kill.

locarno24 wrote:

Now, was Russ wasting his time? Yeah, you can't force reason into people who are insane- but you can't really fault him for trying.

Actually, you can. Whilst you can argue who shot first, or who won, the only reason the Night of the Wolf happened in the first place was because Russ took it upon himself to try and give Angron orders - turning up and imperiously demanding he stand down and return to Terra, with absolutely no authority to do so.

If he was less of a [insert one of the assorted insults Angron calls him], Russ might have either sent a delegatus, or - even better - come to talk to him directly without bringing the Rout along with him.

Also note that yes, the World Eaters disquieted people and caused a lot of collateral damage, but the Rout are hinted as being responsible for just as many substantive massacres: see the commentary in - I think it's "Know No Fear?" - where Gulliman pointedly chooses to use the Fenrisian term to describe terracidal massacres:

This kind of total war, this process of razing, is most commonly seen with shock or hyper-aggressive forces. The warriors of Angron, my brother primarch of the XII Legion, refer to it as Totality, and even then they employ it rarely to its full extent. From my brother Russ, and the Wurgen war-cant of the Vlka Fenryka we borrow the term 'Skira Vordrotta', which may most usefully be rendered as System Kill.

The difference between the VI, VIII and XII Legions is this.


The Space Wolves get ordered to destroy an entire system because it needs a good purging. Response: "Sure, that's what I'm paid for." Job done, and nothing more than a job to be done. They are like a sledgehammer, just a tool to smash the target. Once target is destroyed they go sit down and wait for the next task because it was just the job.

Night Lords overkill as a matter of point, to scare the survivors into behaving. "Oh, you think we're being nasty? Fine, we'll skin you with your own teeth, stfu." They are doing it for a purpose that they decide for themselves. They don't lose sleep over it but they actively try to massacre people.

World Eaters are more like a swarm of angry honey badgers thrown into the chicken coupe. They are angry aggressive and attack anything on sight for no reason. They have no control or purpose, just kill for kill's sake. They are not actively trying to massacre systems, they just do.

 Deadshot wrote:
The difference between the VI, VIII and XII Legions is this.

The Space Wolves get ordered to destroy an entire system because it needs a good purging. Response: "Sure, that's what I'm paid for." Job done, and nothing more than a job to be done. They are like a sledgehammer, just a tool to smash the target. Once target is destroyed they go sit down and wait for the next task because it was just the job.

Night Lords overkill as a matter of point, to scare the survivors into behaving. "Oh, you think we're being nasty? Fine, we'll skin you with your own teeth, stfu." They are doing it for a purpose that they decide for themselves. They don't lose sleep over it but they actively try to massacre people.

World Eaters are more like a swarm of angry honey badgers thrown into the chicken coupe. They are angry aggressive and attack anything on sight for no reason. They have no control or purpose, just kill for kill's sake. They are not actively trying to massacre systems, they just do.

Which World Eaters, though? They evolved with time.

The War Hounds pre-Angron don't fit that description. The post-Angron, Crusade-era WE probably don't either, even with the Nails. Guilliman notes in that quote that even the WE don't resort to Totality often. Post-Isstvan 3? Maybe. As Betrayer indicates, they're still functioning during the Shadow Crusade, although they're starting to lose their grip, and the Rubicon is crossed with Angron's ascension. By the time they're at the Palace...all bets are probably off at that point.

Clearly the WE descend into madness (although even the 40K loonies can't be quite as loony as they're sometimes portrayed, or else they would have expired a long time ago). But I'd argue that their genetically-encoded MO and reason-to-be wasn't about random carnage, but total war a la Sherman, taken to an extreme degree.

It's part of what makes Angron and Lorgar and their respective legions such an interesting odd couple. Angron and the WE are of the mindset that you kill the enemy quick and move on to the next. Lorgar and the WB would rather collect some captives, set a spell, and do terrible, terrible, things.


The Night of the Wolf is a fascinating encounter because both sides won and lost. As a gladiator, Angron viewed his beatdown of Russ as a confirmation of his rightness, and probably felt honor (which is hugely important to Angron) was served. An interesting point that's rarely pointed out is that Angron doesn't kill Russ, even though the book suggests he was in position to do so. Meanwhile the WE gave the SW a good bloody nose. And yet the WE were similarly bloodied, and you get the sense that Angron knows he was ultimately outmanuevered.

Russ and the SW proved their point by maneuvering to be in position to take down Angron, and gave as good as they got versus the WE. Similarly, Russ chooses not to have the SW take down Angron, although he probably would have lost his own life in the process. And yet the WE weren't brought to heel, and I think Russ discovers that the point wasn't lost on Angron so much as it was never important to him. I also wonder a little if Russ leaves fully confident that he has the moral high ground. Does Russ wonder how he'd feel about the Emperor had he had been in Angron's shoes when the Emperor found him? That's the basis of the Khan's quote about caution with judging Angron.

Angron and Russ enter and leave that encounter with very different mindsets and world views, and I feel like the stalemate was an expression of how there would never be a meeting of the minds between them. Mutual annihilation was the only possible result.