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Seriously, how do these two units differ? In a major way, I know that you have buy the +4 save for the Vets; but, even then they are half the cost per model than the storm troopers. MTS comes in platoon while vets only come in squads. And MTS have a unique dedicated transport, which has no armour. So, why would anyone bring MTC?

AP3 Weapons? It would be better to just take them as an Allies choice from the Scions Codex.

Also their transport is fast and can have AP3 weapons.

Deep Strike is nice for suicide melta squads; I've even considered giving them flamers instead to make them a dedicated backfield cover-clearing unit. Veterans can just jump out of a Valkyrie, of course, but the storm troopers are a little more flexible. The other special thing about them is that they can unlock the command squads, which are nice. Fill them up with plasma or volley guns and use them to jump in and support a forward push or help anchor a line with one more order!

Apart from that, Vets are a troop choice, get more special weapons, have more options, and are cheaper...

Are we talking fluff or rules here?

Rule wise, Veterans are better if only because they are cheaper and more versatile (and troop choice).

Fluff wise, I would say that Scions are significantly better with a few exeption here and there like Tanith or Kasrkin.

Fluff wise Scions are virtually unbeatable by Human standards.

Game wise they don't do the Scions justice.
Basically, scions are like vets except replace the numbers and cheapness for deep strike and ap3 (and move through cover)

From a fluff perspective there is no justification for vets being nearly as good as they are in the game. BS4? They are just unagumented humans. Vets are supposed to be regular guardsmen with more weapons and freer tactics.

Fluff wise...I've always said that there is no one more bad @#$ than a normal Joe guardsman who's survived a few campaigns.

But equipment wise, a Scion/Stormtrooper is hard to beat.

Exactly. Veterans are just that; veterans. That squad is the survivors of what's left of a full platoon or more, given the original description of the "Hardened Veterans" squad.

Scions have the training, Veterans have the experience. The net effect is about the same.

So what we need are WS4 BS5 veteran Scions, clearly.

Veterans all the way. Hotshot lasguns are weak. The Guard already has enough AP3 weapons at their disposal, which have a better strength than 3. Also their tactical flexibility is, ironically, much better than Stormies, with many cool doctrines.

True. But there are few things which can lay down as much marine-discombobulating power for as few points as a Tempestus Command Squad with Hot-Shot Volley Guns.

The "Preferred Enemy" Order (Directed Firestorm?) makes it really, really lethal.

You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

MSU Scions, with reservre re-rolls, can reliably put pairs of special weapons anywhere on the board, without getting shot up on the way there.

For example, 2x 5-Man Scions with 4 special weapons compares reasonably well to 10x Vets with Carapace and 3x Specials in a Chimera... except the Scions can't have their Chimera blown up on the way to the objective. And the Scions can freely drop into cover without fear of mishaps.

I usually use a pair of Scion units to drop onto otherwise "unlikely to reach" objectives. My Chimera simply don't last in my metagame, so getting to distant objectives is nearly impossible otherwise. I would probably use more if I had more... Kasrkin models.

Dropping a CCS out of a Vendetta can really amp up their damage output, with an Ignores Cover order.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

That one is also nice.

Lusall wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

Some light reading. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Imperial_Militia_and_Cults_(30k)

If you like what you see, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Lusall wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

Some light reading. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Imperial_Militia_and_Cults_(30k)

If you like what you see, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

The other 30k Stormtrooper-equivalent army (light reading at https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Solar_Auxilia_(30k), rules in the same book) is a Veletaris-focused Auxilia list, who have 15"/S5/Assault 2 rifles, can have WS4 and power axes, and get 5-HP Vindicators as Dedicated Transports.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

That one is also nice.

Lusall wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

Some light reading. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Imperial_Militia_and_Cults_(30k)

If you like what you see, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

That is legit as .

Outside of some incredible niche circumstances where ap3 or move through cover applies in close range, veterans are more cost efficient and flexible, and superior. unless you were playing a de-optimized (which i highly recommend, games are way more balanced when you choose not to take best units on both parties) list for cities of death, there is no reason to plan on those 2 or 3 scenarios where they are better... for a turn.

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. Veterans are just that; veterans. That squad is the survivors of what's left of a full platoon or more, given the original description of the "Hardened Veterans" squad.

Scions have the training, Veterans have the experience. The net effect is about the same.

Well trained, elite troops are almost always pound for pound better than veteran line troopers. IG veterans represent very canny and skilled soldiers, but Stormtroopers receive years of training before they even put on armor. They also have better support and logistics.

But really, while vets do things better than basic infantry, stormtroopers do different things.

From a fluff perspective, the Stormtroopers are better than any Guard infantry soldier could dream of being. Better-equipped, better-trained, better-supported and wholly loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor. These soldiers come from the same schools that train Commissars and Sororitas.

 Lusall wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

That one is also nice.

Lusall wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

Some light reading. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Imperial_Militia_and_Cults_(30k)

If you like what you see, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

That is legit as .

Yeah Militia and Cults is pretty sweet.

 Lusall wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You just need to cast off the ties of the Imperium and play Renegades and Heretics, so you can have Tempestus Scions as a troops choice and WS4 to go with their BS4.

Or you could play the 30k militia list. How do 3+-armoured Stormtroopers with 18"/S5/Assault 1 rifles (or bolters, if you're feeling boring) in Troops sound?

...Go on.

I'm interested as well...