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During the FAQ draft there was a lot of discussion around the number of grenades you could use in assault. As we know GW states that only 1 per phase per unit can be used. A lot of people had interpreted this differently.
From a fluff perspective, there are arguments both ways:
Pro: You can assume the rest of the unit is providing covering fire or distracting the target. It also gives the impression that the 'unit' may be armed with grenades, but the 'individuals' may not.
Con: If everyone has the appropriate weapon, why would the others just stand around doing nothing, or worse yet, attempt to punch through the armour of a tank? Independent characters put lie to the 'individuals don't all carry grenades' comment above.
From a game play perspective, I believe the reason is quite sensible for the shooting phase but makes little or no sense in assault. Put simply, no one wants to take the time necessary to roll scatter dice for 5, 10, or potentially 50 frag grenades.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time.

Which way do you feel is more appropriate? And should it vary between shooting and assault?
A) all models may use grenades
B) only one model may use grenades
C) some sort of middle ground.

On the middle ground, I've come up with the following:
Grenades are a semi-limited resource. If a unit elects to use a single grenade, the resource remains in play. If the unit elects to all use grenades (10 krak grenades into a tank for example), then the resource is depleted exactly if it were a 'One Use Only' item.

The alternative might be to track grenades as a One Use Only item, per model, but that would be more book keeping.

With regard to how this might interplay with balance of vehicles and monstrous creatures, assume that other rules can be changed accordingly.

Zustiur wrote:
From a game play perspective, I believe the reason is quite sensible for the shooting phase but makes little or no sense in assault. Put simply, no one wants to take the time necessary to roll scatter dice for 5, 10, or potentially 50 frag grenades.

However if squad can use them freely then any vehicle will evaporate in combat quite fast. I don't hear much complains about vehicles being broken...More like vehicles are too weak.

The alternative might be to track grenades as a One Use Only item, per model, but that would be more book keeping.

Uuh no. Would require marker to be used per model that has used. Way too fidle.

Most units that get AV grenades per person have short ranged weapons, making them a suicide squad. Eldar Fire Dragons are a perfect example, with Melta-guns and Melta-bombs per model.
These units are usually priced accordingly, and the anti-AV effectiveness is their one role.

So, if the unit is built to have a bomb each, and the price reflects that, they should be able to use one per model. Even if the unit gets a special rule to allow it, this is the main purpose for some units. It isn't as though they have many ways to get the assault off without standing around for the turn beforehand.

AV units usually have AV weapons beyond Grenades. You can argue about the effectiveness of those other weapons however they are generally not built around just the grenades. It's pretty obviously meant for 1 per unit.

tneva82 wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
From a game play perspective, I believe the reason is quite sensible for the shooting phase but makes little or no sense in assault. Put simply, no one wants to take the time necessary to roll scatter dice for 5, 10, or potentially 50 frag grenades.

However if squad can use them freely then any vehicle will evaporate in combat quite fast. I don't hear much complains about vehicles being broken...More like vehicles are too weak.

The alternative might be to track grenades as a One Use Only item, per model, but that would be more book keeping.

Uuh no. Would require marker to be used per model that has used. Way too fidle.

Hardly, your giving krak granades WAY to much credit, along with frag which are sub par vs anything thats T4 or more.

The one grenade rule was one of the worst FAQ they did, and most of the time it gets house ruled out even at GW shops because its just silly.

I can see both arguments for and against the one model per unit rule for grenades, and I'm honestly a bit torn.

On the one hand, it make grenades less "spam" and more tactical in its use. Frag is useful for assaulting (especially entrenched enemies while Krak grenades can be useful against light vehicles and tough enemies regular guns might not wound easily. While many will argue due to their VERY short range this might be niche at best.
Another thing to remember, there are many more grenade types other than frag+krak, which are MUCH more nasty. Imagine some of them being mass thrown if the one model per unit rule was lifted...

Keep the rule, but add a few specific exceptions.

Go back to everyone being able to use their grenades in CC, but bring back the "only hits Walkers/Monsters" on a 6 rule.

You could change it to a 1 grenade in every X rule.
Say beginning at 1 in 5 rounded up, but you could have a special rule, perhaps something like ''Grenadier [X]'' X being the number of models which must pass on grenade uses for every model that uses a grenade.
Eg Grenadier [0] means everyone can use a grenade, grenadier [4] means every 5th model can use a grenade (the default ruling in my suggestion)
This would support the covering fire/distraction explanation.

Zustiur wrote:
During the FAQ draft there was a lot of discussion around the number of grenades you could use in assault. As we know GW states that only 1 per phase per unit can be used. A lot of people had interpreted this differently.
From a fluff perspective, there are arguments both ways:
Pro: You can assume the rest of the unit is providing covering fire or distracting the target. It also gives the impression that the 'unit' may be armed with grenades, but the 'individuals' may not.
Con: If everyone has the appropriate weapon, why would the others just stand around doing nothing, or worse yet, attempt to punch through the armour of a tank? Independent characters put lie to the 'individuals don't all carry grenades' comment above.
From a game play perspective, I believe the reason is quite sensible for the shooting phase but makes little or no sense in assault. Put simply, no one wants to take the time necessary to roll scatter dice for 5, 10, or potentially 50 frag grenades.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time.

Which way do you feel is more appropriate? And should it vary between shooting and assault?
A) all models may use grenades
B) only one model may use grenades
C) some sort of middle ground.

On the middle ground, I've come up with the following:
Grenades are a semi-limited resource. If a unit elects to use a single grenade, the resource remains in play. If the unit elects to all use grenades (10 krak grenades into a tank for example), then the resource is depleted exactly if it were a 'One Use Only' item.

The alternative might be to track grenades as a One Use Only item, per model, but that would be more book keeping.

With regard to how this might interplay with balance of vehicles and monstrous creatures, assume that other rules can be changed accordingly.

From a fluff perspective the other members of the unit are diving for cover, not punching the vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ammending that - Orks are likely to ignore Grenade safety, they should be able to use them for every equippied model in assault.

I think one grenade attack per unit per phase, is a reasonable core rule.

As actual combatants only have a limited supply of grenades, (And in most cases they are not sure if or when they may get a re supply.)
It is quite sensible from a background explanation to ration the use of grenades in the majority of cases.

I agree in some specific special cases this may be relaxed, to allow more than one grenade to be used.(But should have an appropriate penalty.)

I think the big problem is that units that pay a price per model are completely wasted. Imperial guard vets have to pay 30pts to give everyone melta bombs, which grants the same number of meltabomb attacks as a character that payed 5pts.

It also gives no consideration to size of units. You're telling me my lone character can throw as many grenades as 50 guardsmen? Because the 50 guardsmen might run out?

It's fine to ration them, but ration them logically. Make in 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 or whatever.
That's assuming we lower the price of giving grenades to entire units. But how would we lower the price of Krak grenades (1pt/model typically?).

1 per 5 models, have a 10man unit they can use 2, etc...

Even Heralds of Ruin's "One use but you can use them any time" would be preferable over "one a turn per unit"

 Amishprn86 wrote:
1 per 5 models, have a 10man unit they can use 2, etc...

Can a 4man unit not even throw one then?
Would a 6man unit throw 1 or 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Even Heralds of Ruin's "One use but you can use them any time" would be preferable over "one a turn per unit"

Tracking grenades individually on 30+ models sounds fun.
Doesn't even make much sense because what idiot rides to battle with only 1 grenade.

I think the problem is that it makes certain units too powerful. Ten space marines only get one attack per model regardless, so letting them hit at S6 against light vehicles made them vastly stronger than they should be.

One grenade per five models (Rounding up) seems like the best solution to me.

I think 1 per 5 is reasonable, and the cost should reflect it (right now its priced per model).

As an advanced//optional rule, I think it should be "limited use" - sort of like "gets hot". If the scatter die is a hit with the arrow marker on it, you still perform the attack, but the squad is out of grenades. That would mean the more that were thrown at once, the more likely the group runs out.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
1 per 5 models, have a 10man unit they can use 2, etc...

Can a 4man unit not even throw one then?
Would a 6man unit throw 1 or 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Even Heralds of Ruin's "One use but you can use them any time" would be preferable over "one a turn per unit"

Tracking grenades individually on 30+ models sounds fun.
Doesn't even make much sense because what idiot rides to battle with only 1 grenade.

1-5 models 1, 6-10 2 etc...

You're all thinking too hard.

Half the models in the unit may use the grenades in melee. Then we just debate on rounding up or down (I'm in favor of rounding down).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I think the problem is that it makes certain units too powerful. Ten space marines only get one attack per model regardless, so letting them hit at S6 against light vehicles made them vastly stronger than they should be.

One grenade per five models (Rounding up) seems like the best solution to me.

Can we please stop pretending like Marines really killed vehicles in melee with their Krak Grenades?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're all thinking too hard.

Half the models in the unit may use the grenades in melee. Then we just debate on rounding up or down (I'm in favor of rounding down).

Can we please stop pretending like Marines really killed vehicles in melee with their Krak Grenades?

Rounding down would result in lone models not being able to use them at all ( Half of one being 0.5 and rounded down that's zero)
Half (Rounding up) I believe would be the best way to toe the line between the (virtually useless) single grenade and the "dear lord where'd my undamaged (insert superheavy vehicle name) go" of all of them

I do agree with the Marine Krak grenade thing, I don't think I have ever used them against non-walker vehicles as the 2 (or more) Str 4 attacks each they get when charging will wreck the typical Av 10 rear vehicle just as easily (Technically Krak would work out better than 2 attacks but by a negligible amount)

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're all thinking too hard.

Half the models in the unit may use the grenades in melee. Then we just debate on rounding up or down (I'm in favor of rounding down).

Can we please stop pretending like Marines really killed vehicles in melee with their Krak Grenades?

Rounding down would result in lone models not being able to use them at all ( Half of one being 0.5 and rounded down that's zero)
Half (Rounding up) I believe would be the best way to toe the line between the (virtually useless) single grenade and the "dear lord where'd my undamaged (insert superheavy vehicle name) go" of all of them

I do agree with the Marine Krak grenade thing, I don't think I have ever used them against non-walker vehicles as the 2 (or more) Str 4 attacks each they get when charging will wreck the typical Av 10 rear vehicle just as easily (Technically Krak would work out better than 2 attacks but by a negligible amount)

I'd have figured that a lone model would be an exception but thanks for pointing out that.

Half rounding up is fine. I'd much prefer it being all models again but I understand the line of logic for them helping vehicles (theoretically) in that manner even though it benefits Monstrous Creatures more.

Half rounding up is a nice compromise!

As for krak grenades specifically, I have done that once or twice but it's not common.

Outside of the scattering frag/plasma thing, I feel the main driver for limiting the number of grenade attacks is down to hitting vehicles on the rear armour in combat and hull points.

I don't think there needs to be a change; the purpose of having grenades per model in a squad is redundancy, whereas having them on only the squad leader means you risk losing the grenades if the squad leader can be sniped.

Any increase in the damage output would require a change in cost; there are some units that probably pay far too much for grenades, but otherwise it means more expensive overall.

One way to think of the one grenade rule is that the squad-mates are covering whoever is using the grenade; if you look at how modern soldiers operate you don't often see them all lobbing grenades at the same time, usually one does so as others cover them, or get ready to go in after it detonates.

Honestly in CC I like the simply idea of making it so that any number of models in base contact can use grenades, however those that aren't can not.

 Haravikk wrote:
I don't think there needs to be a change; the purpose of having grenades per model in a squad is redundancy, whereas having them on only the squad leader means you risk losing the grenades if the squad leader can be sniped.

Any increase in the damage output would require a change in cost; there are some units that probably pay far too much for grenades, but otherwise it means more expensive overall.

One way to think of the one grenade rule is that the squad-mates are covering whoever is using the grenade; if you look at how modern soldiers operate you don't often see them all lobbing grenades at the same time, usually one does so as others cover them, or get ready to go in after it detonates.

Problem is though at almost all, if not all, squads pay grenade prices as if all members can use them. It's only characters that pay the character price for just them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly in CC I like the simply idea of making it so that any number of models in base contact can use grenades, however those that aren't can not.

That's not a bad idea.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly in CC I like the simply idea of making it so that any number of models in base contact can use grenades, however those that aren't can not.

I like this one. You don't let every model use grenades (so vehicles with hull points don't get as punished), you don't unfairly restrict units with grenades on everyone, and it's a relatively intuitive approach that relies on the board state rather than on adding an extra layer of mental math/information tracking to the game.

 Haravikk wrote:
I don't think there needs to be a change; the purpose of having grenades per model in a squad is redundancy, whereas having them on only the squad leader means you risk losing the grenades if the squad leader can be sniped.

Any increase in the damage output would require a change in cost; there are some units that probably pay far too much for grenades, but otherwise it means more expensive overall.

One way to think of the one grenade rule is that the squad-mates are covering whoever is using the grenade; if you look at how modern soldiers operate you don't often see them all lobbing grenades at the same time, usually one does so as others cover them, or get ready to go in after it detonates.

Except everyone is still attacking in melee and not ducking. Not an excuse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Haravikk wrote:
I don't think there needs to be a change; the purpose of having grenades per model in a squad is redundancy, whereas having them on only the squad leader means you risk losing the grenades if the squad leader can be sniped.

Any increase in the damage output would require a change in cost; there are some units that probably pay far too much for grenades, but otherwise it means more expensive overall.

One way to think of the one grenade rule is that the squad-mates are covering whoever is using the grenade; if you look at how modern soldiers operate you don't often see them all lobbing grenades at the same time, usually one does so as others cover them, or get ready to go in after it detonates.

Except everyone is still attacking in melee and not ducking. Not an excuse.

Sure, but you're still not all going to rush in at once and risk blowing each other up; the rest should be trying to distract and create an opening then avoid the blast.

 Haravikk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Haravikk wrote:
I don't think there needs to be a change; the purpose of having grenades per model in a squad is redundancy, whereas having them on only the squad leader means you risk losing the grenades if the squad leader can be sniped.

Any increase in the damage output would require a change in cost; there are some units that probably pay far too much for grenades, but otherwise it means more expensive overall.

One way to think of the one grenade rule is that the squad-mates are covering whoever is using the grenade; if you look at how modern soldiers operate you don't often see them all lobbing grenades at the same time, usually one does so as others cover them, or get ready to go in after it detonates.

Except everyone is still attacking in melee and not ducking. Not an excuse.

Sure, but you're still not all going to rush in at once and risk blowing each other up; the rest should be trying to distract and create an opening then avoid the blast.

Except none of the grenades actually involved in melee have any measureable blast.
And the whole squad is quite happy punching a tank until it explodes otherwise.
If you're using the logic of the rest cover while one attacks, that should apply to all of melee.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Except none of the grenades actually involved in melee have any measureable blast.

Not in game turns, but we're talking here about things that implode (krak) or create some kind of focused melta blast (melta bomb), I would not want to be anywhere near those, and having a squad rush in and all use them at once is just begging for a cumulative effect that takes everyone out, or one to go off early etc. If we were talking about say, an unoccupied building then it would make sense a squad might be able to plant multiple to go off at the same time, but if you're talking about a moving dreadnought that's actively crushing everything it sees into paste then no, you're looking for a lucky attempt in extreme circumstances.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
And the whole squad is quite happy punching a tank until it explodes otherwise.

Think of it as distracting; i.e- stopping the tank/walker from crunching the grenade planter into dust before they get a chance to place it.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
If you're using the logic of the rest cover while one attacks, that should apply to all of melee.

There's a difference between swinging a sword and trying to plant and activate a grenade at a weak point on something that may be actively trying to kill you. Even against an immobilised vehicle immobilise doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't still trying to move, or its weapons still trying to draw a bead etc.


So yeah, you could maybe make the case for using multiple grenades an a building that isn't occupied (or which occupants can't actively shoot out of), i.e- you can plant the grenades in peace.
But otherwise thematically I don't think it makes much sense, plus it's overpowered in game terms since vehicles are so weak right now anyway.