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So, I picked up the horus heresy bundle last week, and it's really quite good. On the second book right now, they just got done with the battle at the moon, davin (where horus got stabbed).

I'm enjoying the series so far, far more so than the bolter porn surrounding most 40k space marine stories. The 30k marines seem much more vulnerable, flawed, and human, I suppose.

At any rate, one thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the stunning and absolute ignorance the legions have regarding chaos and the warp.

It always seemed odd to me to try and insulate troopers from the existence of chaos - for your random civilian, sure, for your average guardsman, probably, but for the actual marines, not informing them of the grave threat of chaos seems stupid to the point of lunacy. It'd be like not telling troops about orks, and how they may be somewhat aggressive.

But even that isn't so bad. What is stunning is the the fact that horus, HORUS, the warmaster, blindly assaulted what was obviously a nurgle-ridden plague moon and was unprepared for everything that happened.

I mean, surely the crusade had come across demons and chaos and cultists at some point, right? And I know for a certainty that the big E knew all about the threat that chaos posed, did he never mention it to horus, at the absolute minimum? Did he really send his crusade into the cosmos without so much as a 'by the way, look out for chaos - there's 4 flavors and they all suck."

Maybe it's just a plot hole, and without it there would never have been room for the heresy to spread.

But, I mean, is there a reason the legions know absolutely nothing about chaos?

Like I said, the whole 'lets pretend it doesn't exists' plan regarding chaos that the imperium used then (and in 40k) seems pretty silly. Eldar know all about chaos, and they don't have a lot of cultists. For a better example, the interex human civilization they encountered knew all about chaos and its threat, and recognized it as such, and had prospered, chaos-free.

I mean, why would the emperor not, at the bare minimum, trust his primarchs with at least a rudimentary knowledge of chaos? It seems like Horus barely knew about warp entities, and thought of them as disorganized, mindless beasts.

It just seems that not briefing your armies on an omnipresent threat is just asking for trouble. Which, incidentally, is pretty much what happened.

As an aside - why did erebrus have the rank of 'chaplain'? that's an odd rank for a secular military force. I know word bearers were way into emperor worship, but I think he told them officially to knock it off.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, I picked up the horus heresy bundle last week, and it's really quite good. On the second book right now, they just got done with the battle at the moon, davin (where horus got stabbed).

I'm enjoying the series so far, far more so than the bolter porn surrounding most 40k space marine stories. The 30k marines seem much more vulnerable, flawed, and human, I suppose.

At any rate, one thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the stunning and absolute ignorance the legions have regarding chaos and the warp.

It always seemed odd to me to try and insulate troopers from the existence of chaos - for your random civilian, sure, for your average guardsman, probably, but for the actual marines, not informing them of the grave threat of chaos seems stupid to the point of lunacy. It'd be like not telling troops about orks, and how they may be somewhat aggressive.

But even that isn't so bad. What is stunning is the the fact that horus, HORUS, the warmaster, blindly assaulted what was obviously a nurgle-ridden plague moon and was unprepared for everything that happened.

I mean, surely the crusade had come across demons and chaos and cultists at some point, right? And I know for a certainty that the big E knew all about the threat that chaos posed, did he never mention it to horus, at the absolute minimum? Did he really send his crusade into the cosmos without so much as a 'by the way, look out for chaos - there's 4 flavors and they all suck."

Maybe it's just a plot hole, and without it there would never have been room for the heresy to spread.

But, I mean, is there a reason the legions know absolutely nothing about chaos?

Like I said, the whole 'lets pretend it doesn't exists' plan regarding chaos that the imperium used then (and in 40k) seems pretty silly. Eldar know all about chaos, and they don't have a lot of cultists. For a better example, the interex human civilization they encountered knew all about chaos and its threat, and recognized it as such, and had prospered, chaos-free.

I mean, why would the emperor not, at the bare minimum, trust his primarchs with at least a rudimentary knowledge of chaos? It seems like Horus barely knew about warp entities, and thought of them as disorganized, mindless beasts.

It just seems that not briefing your armies on an omnipresent threat is just asking for trouble. Which, incidentally, is pretty much what happened.

As an aside - why did erebrus have the rank of 'chaplain'? that's an odd rank for a secular military force. I know word bearers were way into emperor worship, but I think he told them officially to knock it off.

Its pretty much just summed up as, The Emperor didnt trust them. That's why he didnt tell them. Also it goes against what he was trying to teach people. You cant tell one person, even Primarchs, that Gods exist after telling them that they don't. You greatly increase the chance of it getting out and going against what you are saying. Though in this case, yes thats still a bad excuse.

Also the Chaplain Edict came about, from my understanding, after Nikea as a way to enforce the no Librarians Rule as well as keep up morale and watch over the Marines and was largely based on the Word Bearers more Religious Chaplains. Erberus was a Chaplain before that, because the Word Bearers came from a planet dominated by a Religion, its why Lorgar was so religious.

Chaos didn't exist in 30k the way it does in 40k. Not even close. Not by a long shot.

What you say as "Obviously nurgle ridden" is like going back to Roman times and calling the gladiators dumb for trying to fight you when you're obviously armed with an M16.

There weren't any sort of established daemon worlds or corrupted fleets wandering about the galaxy. Chaos as an entity was far less brazen during the Great Crusade than it was during any other period that followed it.

Eldar know all about chaos, and they don't have a lot of cultists.

That's because they all died in the formation of the Eye of Terror and those that didn't escape to Commorragh were smart enough to see that what they were doing was dangerous. It took them birthing a new god for that to happen. Those "cultists" that are still around live on the crone worlds deep in the Eye of Terror.

The thing about Chaos is that even just knowing about Chaos makes you more susceptible to it than if you hadn't. You won't be tempted to rob the bank through the back door if you don't know the back door's there in the first place. The Emperor believed this, and he felt that religious worship especially was an easy way of having your beliefs twisted towards chaos's wishes. Now obviously we know by M41 that religious worship can also be twisted AGAINST chaos, but this was only just being discovered back then.

Now if you want the real solid answer why the Emperor didn't put great emphasis on this then it's below. But note that this information is from about 40 books into the series.

Chaos is Chaotic
It takes a million different forms. Be it corruption, barbary, excess, or trickery. At the time of the great crusade, most human planets were riddled with some sort of mality. There were few clean rightous planets. They all looked somewhat off and had a problem or two that needed to be fixed.

The second Lorgar found out he went evil. That's why. Chaos is absolute, limitless power, and absolutely power corrupts absolutely. Even if its only the promise of it. Each Primarch embodies something of the Emperor. Lorgar was always assumed to be the physical representation, they look alike, that is. In truth, he embodies the Emperor's humanity: ie, the weakness of him, the part that makes him human(ish), the part that has an incessant, undeniable need to be inferior and have a god.

Also, regardless of how well drilled your soldiers are, knowledge is power, and giving them knowledge of Chaos would open their mind to the potential power there, and corrupt them, as is the nature of the Chaos Gods. This is a universe and a society where open minds and acceptance are dangerous to the survival of humanity. "An open mind is like a fortresse with it's gates unbarred and unguarded," after all. When your species survival or extinction is on the cards, you do not tell them this:

Well, I don't entirely buy the whole 'knowing about chaos corrupts you instantly thing"

Again, I point to eldar and the interex civilizations - granted, eldar did screw up with the whole slanessh thing, but thjat was a mistake borne of ignorance of chaos. Plus, even after that, they don't try to pretend that chaos don't exist. They recognize it as a problem, but seem extremely resistant to its allure.

And even the interex troopers (who were human) knew about chaos, and it didn't seem to bother them. The knew it was a threat, but they appeared to prosper, chaos-free.

And Magnus, who knew all about chaos, wasn't corrupted by it for, idk, hundreds of years. The only reason he turned to chaos was because he thought the emperor wanted him dead (due to horus).

Though, I had never really considered that chaos wasn't as active in 30k as it is in 40k. Maybe the crusade hadn't encountered any demon infestations? That seems a little odd, considering their prevalence in 40k, but maybe that was the case.

The Interex humans didn't know about Chaos. Not really. They knew it existed and that it was dangerous. It was the Kinebrach who knew about it and had experience with it and the Kinebrach kept it away from humanity as much as possible. The Kinebrach knew it was dangerous because it was part of the reason their empire had fallen in the first place and why they had to ally themselves to humanity. They are a poor example of handling Chaos properly.

And Magnus, who knew all about chaos, wasn't corrupted by it for, idk, hundreds of years. The only reason he turned to chaos was because he thought the emperor wanted him dead (due to horus).

You're skipping over a whole heck of a lot of the story there. Magnus was corrupted the moment he made his deal with Tzeentch to try and halt the Flesh Change of the XVth legion. That was over 60 years before the start of the Heresy. You don't need physical mutation to be corrupted by chaos.

Though, I had never really considered that chaos wasn't as active in 30k as it is in 40k. Maybe the crusade hadn't encountered any demon infestations? That seems a little odd, considering their prevalence in 40k, but maybe that was the case.

The absence of Chaos on a large scale prior to the Heresy is practically the whole point of the Heresy. The downfall of the Imperium due to civil war is one of the cornerstones that allowed Chaos to flourish. There were no daemon worlds or mass possessions. There were a fraction of the number of warp breeches and cosmic echoes. The warp was a very different place.

The entire point of them not knowing about chaos to such a stupid degree is actually to illustrate just how wrong the Emperor was in his method. This is because we have the benefit of hindsight and also know the bigger picture because we're the readers.

ok a couple points:

1: Chaos was not really big during the crusades, because that is when man started using the warp which is how Chaos effects our dimension, by the 40K timeline, man had been using the warp for 10,000 years so chaos was more prevalent then.

2: the Emperor did not tell about Chaos because knowledge of Chaos is dangerous, look at the old guy who found a book with old scrawls, read it and opened a warp breech whereby a demon entered our dimension, furthermore if you knew you could have unlimited power and just have to kneel to a chaos god, what would you do?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, I don't entirely buy the whole 'knowing about chaos corrupts you instantly thing"

Again, I point to eldar and the interex civilizations - granted, eldar did screw up with the whole slanessh thing, but thjat was a mistake borne of ignorance of chaos. Plus, even after that, they don't try to pretend that chaos don't exist. They recognize it as a problem, but seem extremely resistant to its allure.

And even the interex troopers (who were human) knew about chaos, and it didn't seem to bother them. The knew it was a threat, but they appeared to prosper, chaos-free.

And Magnus, who knew all about chaos, wasn't corrupted by it for, idk, hundreds of years. The only reason he turned to chaos was because he thought the emperor wanted him dead (due to horus).

Though, I had never really considered that chaos wasn't as active in 30k as it is in 40k. Maybe the crusade hadn't encountered any demon infestations? That seems a little odd, considering their prevalence in 40k, but maybe that was the case.

Its not an instant thing, unless you mean in the sense that the moment you consider anything other than the 'moral' version of things you're corrupt. A politician isn't corrupt the moment they take office, but the moment they consider fudging the books or a coverup they are. And men aren't corrupt the moment they know about Chaos, but the moment they begin to consider the possibilities, Chaos has a hold and you simply can't risk that.

@MechaEmperor the only thing the Emperor did wrong was be too lenient. Parents need to curb their children's bad habits early on. The entirety of 40k and the HH is purely down to Lorgar being told to man up and stop playing with Legos, at the equivilent age of a 16 year old instead of a 7 year old.

 Deadshot wrote:
The entirety of 40k and the HH is purely down to Lorgar being told to man up and stop playing with Legos, at the equivilent age of a 16 year old instead of a 7 year old.

With the 'being told to man up' being done in the way a bad parent would punish a 5 year old.
"No beautiful city for you, I'm commanding your brother to destroy it with your uncle's guidance because I don't care enough."

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The entirety of 40k and the HH is purely down to Lorgar being told to man up and stop playing with Legos, at the equivilent age of a 16 year old instead of a 7 year old.

With the 'being told to man up' being done in the way a bad parent would punish a 5 year old.
"No beautiful city for you, I'm commanding your brother to destroy it with your uncle's guidance because I don't care enough."

Monarchia was the last attempt to get Lorgar to stop worshipping the Emperor, not the first. The Emperor had had multiple discussions with Lorgar prior to it regarding him not being a god. Lorgar was a zealot from the beginning. You don't politely talk a zealot out of their beliefs.

Also the emperor DID tell the Primarchs about Chaos. we see him discuss the matter with Loken in one of the early HH novels. the big thing he didn't seem to tell his primarchs about was the chaos gods.

jareddm wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The entirety of 40k and the HH is purely down to Lorgar being told to man up and stop playing with Legos, at the equivilent age of a 16 year old instead of a 7 year old.

With the 'being told to man up' being done in the way a bad parent would punish a 5 year old.
"No beautiful city for you, I'm commanding your brother to destroy it with your uncle's guidance because I don't care enough."

Monarchia was the last attempt to get Lorgar to stop worshipping the Emperor, not the first. The Emperor had had multiple discussions with Lorgar prior to it regarding him not being a god. Lorgar was a zealot from the beginning. You don't politely talk a zealot out of their beliefs.

Even if he had been "a better father" in that case, that still would have left Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Typhon as cultists in the upper hierarchy of their legions, preserving and establishing pockets of the "old faith" across the imperium, the Dark angels recruiting from what ][ didn't realise was a chaos-tainted world (because the beasts were dead before he ever saw one and Johnson sequestered the Knights Lupus lore, Magnus' legion having a redeemable debt to tzeench for their continued existence, and Fulgrim getting corrupted by the Laer Blade.
Thats plenty enough starting ground for stuff to go wrong.