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Hey dakka, so this is all based on hypothetical and guessing but. What do you all think the fate of the scatter die is going to be? With templates removed the only use for it now would be for deep striking, do you think they would keep and extra required dice for a single mechanic? If so, how do you think deep strike will work? If it's just place your model on the field, I think terminators are going to be the new it unit, no scatter see strike 2 wounds, hitting first on the charge?

Thoughts? Opinions on what's going to happen to our scatter die/how will deep strike work?

The scatter die can be easily replaced by simply saying "in the direction of where the 1 is pointing. Marking as a hit if it comes up as a 1 or a 6" and in fact me and my gaming groups have been using that in place of the scatter die tbh.

Alternatively, there will be some abilities that requires randomization in location and then hitting everything within a certain number of inches.

I don't know if they've mentioned the scatter die or not (haven't had time to keep track of everything we've seen so far) but really, it's up in the air.

I personally hope they keep it, scatter is a fun enough mechanic on its own and packing one proprietary die in a cube of normal ones is an easy buck for GW (and a practice they already... practice.)

If they got rid of it, deepstrike mishaps would be represented some other way, likely a d6 roll on arrival that various wargear or being a drop pod would let you skip.

Keep in mind that even if deep strike had no mishap risk, units that do it will likely still not be allowed to charge the turn they arrive this way.

If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

I don't mind the scatter mechanic and am kinda sad to see templates go away. I think they represented certain attacks well.

I've heard that deeps trike now can be done at least 9" of any enemy unit.

Scatter Die is gone and buried.

Maybe they've taken the complaints about random to an extreme, and will implement an idea such as:

"Place the first model on the field and roll 2D6. Move the model that many inches in a direction of your choice. Carry on as in previous editions."

Perhaps with a clause that subtracts the models' movement stat, so a Terminator scattering 10" would then be moved 5 in the controller's choice direction. If it scattered, say, 4", it would not scatter.


A similar mechanic could be used with blasts*

"To fire a blast weapon, first target a model within line of sight and range. Place a dice or other suitable marker over that point. Roll 1D6 and add* the models' BS value, and move the marker that many inches in a direction of (Player/Opponent's) choice. Every model within 3/6/10/15" of that marker is hit. A roll of 1 does not scatter."


*Adding because BS values are now a X+ system as with saves

 Deadshot wrote:
Maybe they've taken the complaints about random to an extreme, and will implement an idea such as:

"Place the first model on the field and roll 2D6. Move the model that many inches in a direction of your choice. Carry on as in previous editions."

Perhaps with a clause that subtracts the models' movement stat, so a Terminator scattering 10" would then be moved 5 in the controller's choice direction. If it scattered, say, 4", it would not scatter.


A similar mechanic could be used with blasts*

"To fire a blast weapon, first target a model within line of sight and range. Place a dice or other suitable marker over that point. Roll 1D6 and add* the models' BS value, and move the marker that many inches in a direction of (Player/Opponent's) choice. Every model within 3/6/10/15" of that marker is hit. A roll of 1 does not scatter."


*Adding because BS values are now a X+ system as with saves

That just seems to complicate the rules even more. I have a feeling that the scatter die will be gone! DS will probably be the same mechanic as Web Way Assault ( cannot be within X" from an enemy model).

As for blast it will probably just be D6 or 2D6 shots and roll to hit for each shot. Simple and fast

This are all speculation anyways...Can't wait for 8th!

I could imagine that deepstrike will no longer scatter and since templates are no longer a thing there would be no reason to pack the unit into a tight bubble. However, I image that there would have to be some kind of limiting factor, like the 9 inches away from an enemy model, as mentioned earlier. With that it still feels like there should probably still be some risk involved so something along the lines of every arriving model will have to take a dangerous terrain test with no saves aloud.

Tautastic wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Maybe they've taken the complaints about random to an extreme, and will implement an idea such as:

"Place the first model on the field and roll 2D6. Move the model that many inches in a direction of your choice. Carry on as in previous editions."

Perhaps with a clause that subtracts the models' movement stat, so a Terminator scattering 10" would then be moved 5 in the controller's choice direction. If it scattered, say, 4", it would not scatter.


A similar mechanic could be used with blasts*

"To fire a blast weapon, first target a model within line of sight and range. Place a dice or other suitable marker over that point. Roll 1D6 and add* the models' BS value, and move the marker that many inches in a direction of (Player/Opponent's) choice. Every model within 3/6/10/15" of that marker is hit. A roll of 1 does not scatter."


*Adding because BS values are now a X+ system as with saves

That just seems to complicate the rules even more. I have a feeling that the scatter die will be gone! DS will probably be the same mechanic as Web Way Assault ( cannot be within X" from an enemy model).

As for blast it will probably just be D6 or 2D6 shots and roll to hit for each shot. Simple and fast

This are all speculation anyways...Can't wait for 8th!

Upon review and what they've done with flamers, I wage you are right. I would like to formally change my hypothesis to

Deep Strike

"Place the first model anywhere on the board that is more than 9" away from an enemy unit, 1" away from friendly units and Impassable terrain. Assemble the other models around it (as current)

Blasts

"Choose a model within the unit. Roll a (D3/D6/2D6/4D6 depending on blast size). Roll to hit with that number of dice. Shots are counted as coming from the target model for wound allocation."

Well, they alluded in the Q&A that the scatter die was gone. They didn't specify what was going to happen with mechanics that currently use it however. For blasts, the current consensus is that it will be just random damage; D3/D6/2D3/2D6, etc. As I understand it, in AoS, as has been stated earlier, Deep Strike doesn't scatter and you can set up anywhere that is 9" away from any enemy units.

Whether this means that Terminators (or Deep Strikers in general) will be the newest hotness is still too early to determine. It will be highly unlikely they will allow assaults from Deep Strike, so you still have the issue of standing around for a turn before being able to do anything besides shoot. Terminators having two wounds is nice, but weight of fire will still be a thing. Deep Strike heavy armies (GK in particular I'm hoping, as I recently finally started building them) may be able to weather this a bit better to an extent, but if random reserve rolls are still a thing, you may only get one unit in a particular turn, making them a primary target. Deep Strike has always been a risky proposition, especially without scatter mitigation, and I assume that this edition will be no different. You may no longer have to worry about scattering, but leaving one or two units away from the support of the rest of your army will soon see them removed with little fanfare.

As Martel mentioned, so long as Storm Bolters simply remain a two shot bolter, Terminators will still struggle as anything but dedicated assault units, generally best reserved for disgorging from a dedicated assault transport to minimize the chance of them being removed before doing their job. Most of the upgrade weapons Terminators have access to, are either too expensive, or not able to be taken in enough numbers to drastically increase the effectiveness of the weapon/unit. Again, as a GK player, I desperately want my GKT/Paladins to be much better than they are now, but I feel it's going to take much more than simply not scattering on Deep Strike to make that happen.

It sounds like a mid-game Infiltrate to me.

Not that is a bad thing, but some armies can be abusive with it.

What is the Charge Range of Seekers, for example?

This may make a lot of DS units a lot more viable now that mishaps and potential bad placement due to a bad scatter are now out of the question.

If charging out of DS will be a thing, then Terminators will be terrifying. Combined with the rule that initiatives are no longer a thing, 5 terminators armed with 3 power fists and a chain fist charging out of deepstrike will be devastating.

A 30 model storm boy mob might not have to worry about its huge footprint now let alone a full sized 91 model Vulcha Skwad. If new rules allow charges after the deep strike I'm sure the Boyz can cover the distance needed.

I really hope there is some randomization or risk still associated with deep striking. I really don't like AOS's "we're here now".

I mean, it's simple, but it's a little broken. Being able to deploy anywhere on the battlefield should come with some potential risks or drawbacks.

Same for charging from deep strike. I'm honestly not against it with scatter dice involved, as it becomes a game of trying to deep strike close enough to charge but far enough away to not mishap. But I absolutely HATE AOS's 'we're here now, and we're charging you'. Even with the 9" bubble, that seems crazy, and I hope it isn't repeated.

At any rate. I really hope DS still have some risks with it, even if scattering isn't one of them.

The problem is that Deep Striking has never been good in general.. Unless you were Space Marine and had the mythological Drop Pod.

It was often much better to start on the board or reserves rather then deepstrike most units short of sacrificial sorts like Termicide.

It might be good without the templates. For example:

1 Nurgle Chaos Lord in terminator armor
2 Nurgle Chaos Sorcerors
four 5 man Terminators with Mark of Nurgle (Lightning claws, champion with chainfist)
upto 5 Helbrutes

I just need something that can hold out for a turn. Personally I have been using a Priest and 50 plaguezombies.

I could see it being DS at least 9" away from all enemies, cannot Advance or Charge, count as Stationary for shooting.

Then Jump Packs allow the unit to Charge from DS.

This means the tough Termie squads may get whittled down, but stops weaker units with Jump Packs from being left in the open. It also helps differentiate them from Bikes giving the Jump Pack a niche for it to fill.

They could also allow easy deep striking and add a point cost to models that have the ability.

Back in 5th edition the Heroic Intervention special rule allowed you to charge from deep strike, for me at least that was the reason you would take vanguard vets over assault marines.

Worth noting, in their talks about movement they cited terminators as an example of a slower unit. I fear for the safety of our bethunder hammered brothers.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Back in 5th edition the Heroic Intervention special rule allowed you to charge from deep strike, for me at least that was the reason you would take vanguard vets over assault marines.

Worth noting, in their talks about movement they cited terminators as an example of a slower unit. I fear for the safety of our bethunder hammered brothers.

They showed their statline. They're 5" instead of 6"

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Back in 5th edition the Heroic Intervention special rule allowed you to charge from deep strike, for me at least that was the reason you would take vanguard vets over assault marines.

Worth noting, in their talks about movement they cited terminators as an example of a slower unit. I fear for the safety of our bethunder hammered brothers.

termies are move 5 instead of the move 6 of std marines. could still be pretty good depending,

Martel732 wrote:
If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

And if the scatterlaser sucks jetbikes will be garbage and if bolters sucks marines will be garbage and if axes suck space wolves will be garbage, etc, etc,etc, etc,

Martel732 wrote:
If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

This. Spot on, this.

A 5" move does not an improvement make.

An extra wound sounds nice, when most AP2 weaponry will deal a LOT of wounds, like lascannons doing 1d6. good luck surviving that with your 2 wounds, assuming instant death doesn't flat out still apply, making that 4 toughness a huge liability.

but i'm optimistic.

Storm bolters should give a nice little -1 rend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

And if the scatterlaser sucks jetbikes will be garbage and if bolters sucks marines will be garbage and if axes suck space wolves will be garbage, etc, etc,etc, etc,

Bolters have already been announced to suck.

Scatterlasers could receive a massive nerf and Jetbikes will not be garbage lol.

Who uses axes on any Space Wolf unit aside from Wulfen? Axes already suck.

I hope terminators can charge after deep striking now especially if scatter mechanic has gone away.

C.Straken wrote:I could see it being DS at least 9" away from all enemies, cannot Advance or Charge, count as Stationary for shooting.

Then Jump Packs allow the unit to Charge from DS.

This means the tough Termie squads may get whittled down, but stops weaker units with Jump Packs from being left in the open. It also helps differentiate them from Bikes giving the Jump Pack a niche for it to fill.

Maybe, maybe not. They may also define DS with Jump Packs as using their Jump Packs to DS as well. Too many potential paths to define with a surety at this point.

Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

This. Spot on, this.

A 5" move does not an improvement make.

An extra wound sounds nice, when most AP2 weaponry will deal a LOT of wounds, like lascannons doing 1d6. good luck surviving that with your 2 wounds, assuming instant death doesn't flat out still apply, making that 4 toughness a huge liability.

but i'm optimistic.

Storm bolters should give a nice little -1 rend.

So, the only reason people take Terminators is the Storm Bolter? No wonder you think they suck.

Marmatag wrote:Bolters have already been announced to suck.

Realistically, Bolters have never really be that fantastic. Being able to take out a weak AS has never been a strong suit of theirs, because weak AS has never been something one needed to really worry about, unless your facing loaded dice.

There is no reason to take terminators, and the storm bolter is a big reason for that. 2+ armor on T4 W1 models is not currently very strong, and having to get into melee with slow models is not really viable either.

In 7th, most units need to be able to contribute in the shooting phase if they are slow like terminators. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage.

And if the scatterlaser sucks jetbikes will be garbage and if bolters sucks marines will be garbage and if axes suck space wolves will be garbage, etc, etc,etc, etc,

Except the stormbolter currently sucks and has sucked since at least 2nd ed. Bolters have never been good, either.

Terminators are completely unplayable for BA, and even for vanilla, 35 ppm is a LOT for a single wound model.

I think the Scatter dice is going away. Now things just are where they are and when you deep strike you won't scatter (but you'll b more restricted in deep striking). Now I won't have to worry about losing my scatter dice!

I put it in another thread on this already but with the "new GW" why would they just recently start selling stand alone scatter dices for like $1 if they were just getting rid of them? I imagine they will be used still in deep strike, but of course I have no source here, just a guess