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Now that I've seen about 90% of the Astra Militarum list for 8th edition, I think I have enough to go on to make a new doctrine system for them. I'm certain that when they get their own codex GW will do something like this for them anyway, but I would like to have something to work with in the mean time. This is also inspired by the frankly outstanding Code system the Kharadron Oerlords

So here's my suggestion: infantry units with the <Regiment> keyword can use these doctrines. All units with the same <Regiment> keyword in the same army must use the same doctrines. There's two types, the regimental organisation list (which is either Line, Light or Mechanized) and the special skills list. You pick one from the first and two from the second. It's currently incomplete (I'm hoping that's were you guys can help me) but here's what I got:

Regimental Organisation:

Line Infantry: This regimental organisation sees the return of combined infantry squads. Astra Militarum infantry squads with the Line Infantry keyword can be joined together just like before (just with the restriction on platoons removed). No more than six squads can be combined together (yes, six). Regiments I see using this one are Cadians, Mordians, Valhallans, Vostroyans, Kreig...actually about 90% of IG regiments.

Light Infantry: This regimental organisation allows all <regiment> infantry units with the Light Infantry keyword to deploy anywhere on the board that's at least 9" away from enemy units, just like Space Marine Scouts. Astra Militarum characters without the < regiment> keyword can still deploy in this manner but must set up within 3" of a <regiment> infantry unit.

Mechanized Infantry: This regimental organisation...is currently up in the air because I can't think up of a decent rule for them yet that's in the spirit of the first two. But we'll get there!

Special Skills:

Sharpshooters: Reroll To Hit rolls of 1 with laspistols, lasguns and shotguns, like an automatic, slightly less good Take Aim! I know what you're thinking, what's the point in that? Well I've found that what makes the Overlords work is that a lot of their code and battalion bonuses are the same. It stops them becoming OP. Now this can be combined with another order, like Bring It Down. I see Cadians being the poster boys for this skill.

Hardened Fighters. Reroll To Hit rolls of 1 with melee weapons. A 4+ melee skill with rerolls of 1 is still worse than melee skill 3+ so I don't think it's OP. Even with it, Guard are still poor in melee. I see Catachans, Tallarns and Death Korps using this one. I also hate the name and I'm only using it as a stand in.

Aerial Drop (light infantry only): The same as the Scions ability. There's your Elysian drop troops and Harakoni Warhawks right there.

Fanatical: +1 Attack on the turn they charged. Trying to represent churchy type regiments of diehards.

Iron Discipline: Can reroll leadership tests when within 6" of a friendly character.

I'm trying to get this list up to 6 skills. So if you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them.

I'll always support any well thought out doctrine proposal.

Can't find any issues with it. Blobs weren't broken before, they won't be broken now, and frankly make it easier for a Guard player to manage large amounts of infantry. Really, the big advantage is requiring less support characters per Guardsmen. To reduce the abuse of getting that benefit coupled with gak loads of CPs from easily filling up detachments, you could make each combined squad only count as one troop slot.

Light seems a little strong, but I like where you're going with it. Maybe reduce it to a fraction/percentage/set number of units that can deploy as advance scouts, but then give everyone some sort of bonus save when their in cover. Spitballin'.

Mechanized could do something fun like allow orders from tank commanders affect sentinels and hellhounds, while allowing embarked officers to issue orders to other vehicle/embarked squads within range.

I'd suggest scout (pre-game move) rather than Infiltrate (deep-strike deployment) for light infantry; keeps them in theme, but isn't as dramatic.

You may want to bring the "restricted units" mechanic from the 3e book's doctrine system back (where you need to spend doctrine points to use auxiliaries, fancy vehicles, scions, etc.); and I'd also suggest bringing back carapace Veterans in some way, they seem to fit into the concept of a doctrine system well.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll always support any well thought out doctrine proposal.

Can't find any issues with it. Blobs weren't broken before, they won't be broken now, and frankly make it easier for a Guard player to manage large amounts of infantry. Really, the big advantage is requiring less support characters per Guardsmen. To reduce the abuse of getting that benefit coupled with gak loads of CPs from easily filling up detachments, you could make each combined squad only count as one troop slot.

Light seems a little strong, but I like where you're going with it. Maybe reduce it to a fraction/percentage/set number of units that can deploy as advance scouts, but then give everyone some sort of bonus save when their in cover. Spitballin'.

Mechanized could do something fun like allow orders from tank commanders affect sentinels and hellhounds, while allowing embarked officers to issue orders to other vehicle/embarked squads within range.

Cool, thanks.

I guess we could do that for combined squads. I figured though the benefits would be balanced by the reduced ability to use transports and stuff. But I'm open to the idea.

You're right that light infantry are a little strong. How about this...you have to spend CPs to move the units around, to represent the logistics it requires to do so. One CP to move 3 units? Would this work?

Those are sound ideas for Mechanized. One other I was considering was letting half of a unit embarked within a chimera or taurox shoot their weapons under the same restrictions that the transport has, like a Stormlord. Bring back the hatches!

I just need buckets of Vox-Casters

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd suggest scout (pre-game move) rather than Infiltrate (deep-strike deployment) for light infantry; keeps them in theme, but isn't as dramatic.

You may want to bring the "restricted units" mechanic from the 3e book's doctrine system back (where you need to spend doctrine points to use auxiliaries, fancy vehicles, scions, etc.); and I'd also suggest bringing back carapace Veterans in some way, they seem to fit into the concept of a doctrine system well.

Sorry AnomanderRake, I didn't see your reply there.

Having a pregame move would be a lot less dramatic, and I wouldn't have to worry about using CPs. Plus the Aerial Drop skill would look better. (speaking of which, I need to change the name of that to allow for subterranean assaults like what the DKoK use).

I wasn't so keen on bringing that restricted unit mechanic back, because the way I see it, the fact that they won't be receiving the bonuses for doctrines, and now some can't even use orders either! But the vet docs I can definitely bring back:

Grenadiers: +1 save and reroll to hit rolls of 1 with assault weapons?
Rangers: +2 save when in cover, and non flying infantry units who assault them suffer a mortal wound on a 6+?

"Light Infantry Only" on Aerial Drop immediately removes the ability for them to represent the Harakoni Warhawks.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Light Infantry Only" on Aerial Drop immediately removes the ability for them to represent the Harakoni Warhawks.

How?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Light Infantry Only" on Aerial Drop immediately removes the ability for them to represent the Harakoni Warhawks.

How?

Last I checked the Warhawks were Stormtroopers. As in "you could just be using the Scions rules and be done" Stormtroopers, at least absent carapace on Veterans at the moment.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll always support any well thought out doctrine proposal.

Can't find any issues with it. Blobs weren't broken before, they won't be broken now, and frankly make it easier for a Guard player to manage large amounts of infantry. Really, the big advantage is requiring less support characters per Guardsmen. To reduce the abuse of getting that benefit coupled with gak loads of CPs from easily filling up detachments, you could make each combined squad only count as one troop slot.

Light seems a little strong, but I like where you're going with it. Maybe reduce it to a fraction/percentage/set number of units that can deploy as advance scouts, but then give everyone some sort of bonus save when their in cover. Spitballin'.

Mechanized could do something fun like allow orders from tank commanders affect sentinels and hellhounds, while allowing embarked officers to issue orders to other vehicle/embarked squads within range.

Cool, thanks.

I guess we could do that for combined squads. I figured though the benefits would be balanced by the reduced ability to use transports and stuff. But I'm open to the idea.

You're right that light infantry are a little strong. How about this...you have to spend CPs to move the units around, to represent the logistics it requires to do so. One CP to move 3 units? Would this work?

Those are sound ideas for Mechanized. One other I was considering was letting half of a unit embarked within a chimera or taurox shoot their weapons under the same restrictions that the transport has, like a Stormlord. Bring back the hatches!

Again, all good ideas. I'm a little concerned the Aerial Drop skill would really squeeze out the niche scions fill at the moment. Plus, handing out free deep strike also strikes me as a little too powerful.

My thoughts on Aerial Drop is to have some sort of synergy with the Valk (and future Vendetta/Vulture after FW finishes the book). You could remove the negative part of the Grav Chute ability from the Valk for Aerial Drop. Lets them zoom around the table and hop out whenever and wherever they like.

I'm kind of hoping the full Codex will bring back some of the old flavour, like firing points, but its definitely a decent idea for the mechanized trait.

Time to bust out Only War for more ideas.

 Blacksails wrote:
Again, all good ideas. I'm a little concerned the Aerial Drop skill would really squeeze out the niche scions fill at the moment. Plus, handing out free deep strike also strikes me as a little too powerful.

My thoughts on Aerial Drop is to have some sort of synergy with the Valk (and future Vendetta/Vulture after FW finishes the book). You could remove the negative part of the Grav Chute ability from the Valk for Aerial Drop. Lets them zoom around the table and hop out whenever and wherever they like.

I'm kind of hoping the full Codex will bring back some of the old flavour, like firing points, but its definitely a decent idea for the mechanized trait.

Time to bust out Only War for more ideas.

Damn, good point! Free deep strike is too op, and it also steps on the toes of the Scions. That's a much better idea, to automatically pass their grav-chute insertion from a Valkyrie instead. Under the old rules, it used to be a difficult terrain test, which units with Move Through Cover (i.e, light infantry) could auto pass, so it's pretty much the same thing. This idea also fits better with that Mechanized suggestion. They're very minor bonuses that encourage you to play a certain way.

I'm worried that a lot of those skills are too OP too. I'll definitely have to go back to the drawing board with those.

I'm not sure if you have Only War, but it has a section for designing your own regiment. Part of the design process is to select the regiment type. They offer 7 types, which are as follows: armoured, reconnaissance, drop troops, hunter killer, light infantry, line infantry, mechanized infantry, and siege infantry. I like all of them except hunter killer, which is a fancy way of saying 'faster, less armoured, armoured regiment, so I'm inclined to run with those 6 options. These essentially cover all the reasonable and major types of regiments you'll encounter, namely with one exceptions; stormtroopers/grenadiers. We have Scions for what used to be stormtroopers, but no option for any sort of massed Grenadiers.

My solution to the lack of carapace/grenadiers is to simply return the option of carapace to all officers, command squads, and veterans. So that's settled.

You already have proposals for 3 of the regiment types (line, light, and mech), and now a fourth (drop troops). That leaves siege and armoured. A mechanized regiment should have bonuses geared towards the use of chimeras, so giving back firing points and issuing orders from and to chimeras makes sense. The armoured regiments could have a bonus like "All Leman Russ tanks do not suffer the penalty for moving and firing with any weapon." Maybe throw in some ability for tank commanders to issue orders to themselves and other commanders. Siege would be your Krieg, so they'd have the bonuses to Ld, attacking, and maybe something to do with arty. Maybe allowing officers to issue orders to basilisks or something.

Food for thought.

Your Line Infantry rule is an interesting one because if it makes them all one unit and they get charged no one can do anything, but i guess that's when you use your order to shoot after falling back.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm not sure if you have Only War, but it has a section for designing your own regiment. Part of the design process is to select the regiment type. They offer 7 types, which are as follows: armoured, reconnaissance, drop troops, hunter killer, light infantry, line infantry, mechanized infantry, and siege infantry. I like all of them except hunter killer, which is a fancy way of saying 'faster, less armoured, armoured regiment, so I'm inclined to run with those 6 options. These essentially cover all the reasonable and major types of regiments you'll encounter, namely with one exceptions; stormtroopers/grenadiers. We have Scions for what used to be stormtroopers, but no option for any sort of massed Grenadiers.

My solution to the lack of carapace/grenadiers is to simply return the option of carapace to all officers, command squads, and veterans. So that's settled.

You already have proposals for 3 of the regiment types (line, light, and mech), and now a fourth (drop troops). That leaves siege and armoured. A mechanized regiment should have bonuses geared towards the use of chimeras, so giving back firing points and issuing orders from and to chimeras makes sense. The armoured regiments could have a bonus like "All Leman Russ tanks do not suffer the penalty for moving and firing with any weapon." Maybe throw in some ability for tank commanders to issue orders to themselves and other commanders. Siege would be your Krieg, so they'd have the bonuses to Ld, attacking, and maybe something to do with arty. Maybe allowing officers to issue orders to basilisks or something.

Food for thought.

6 regiment types seems good to me. Hell, we might even be able to shrink that down to 3, with the others being skills available to their parent type (Drop Troops being a sub group of light infantry for example). But that would only work if the skills and drills section remained. And I'm not 100% on that now.

Taffy17 wrote:
Your Line Infantry rule is an interesting one because if it makes them all one unit and they get charged no one can do anything, but I guess that's when you use your order to shoot after falling back.

Damn, good spot! If they are all one unit then they become easier to assault, and it stops overwatch too, which is the exact opposite of what I envisioned this to be.

I've been thinking this over and, this is highly unoriginal, but what if Line Infantry received a watered down version of the Tau's For The Greater Good? Infantry units sharing overwatch? This would encourage the player to group their units together.

So it would be:

Line Infantry have "For The Greater Good Lite"
Light Infantry have the Scout sentinels pre game move ability.
Mechanized Infantry have the ability to shoot out of their transports.

These might come with some Order bonuses too. What do you guys think?

Mech infantry shooting out of transports seems to run a bit counter to what the edition is going for. My suggestions would be one or more of the following:

a) Infantry that disembarks from a transport does not count as moving for the purposes of firing Heavy Weapons.

b) Transports gain +1 to hit and +1 S in a Fight phase after they have charged. This represents the "run them down" strategy used by the Steel Legion.

c) Transports can fire Overwatch when a unit within 3" is charged.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Mech infantry shooting out of transports seems to run a bit counter to what the edition is going for. My suggestions would be one or more of the following:

a) Infantry that disembarks from a transport does not count as moving for the purposes of firing Heavy Weapons.

b) Transports gain +1 to hit and +1 S in a Fight phase after they have charged. This represents the "run them down" strategy used by the Steel Legion.

c) Transports can fire Overwatch when a unit within 3" is charged.

Not a bad suggestion. I also think that it could be possible to allow mechanized officers to use the tank orders rule on chimeras and tauroxes. Nominate one transport within 6" of the Officer (which can include the one they are embarked upon. If within 3" of a vox caster or embarked upon a transport increase range to 18". Senior Officers can nominate two transports) and select which one of the orders to use.

Incidentally, I do think that the way tank commanders work needs tweaking.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Not a bad suggestion. I also think that it could be possible to allow mechanized officers to use the tank orders rule on chimeras and tauroxes. Nominate one transport within 6" of the Officer (which can include the one they are embarked upon. If within 3" of a vox caster or embarked upon a transport increase range to 18". Senior Officers can nominate two transports) and select which one of the orders to use.

Yeah, that'd be very appropriate.

Incidentally, I do think that the way tank commanders work needs tweaking.

How so?

@ Formerly Wu

It's the inability of the commander to give himself an order, along with the short range and only able to order one tank at a time nature of orders that bothers me. It's only a small bother though.