Can you see the Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon?

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**Eldenfirefly**

The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

**jareddm**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

Which is exactly what happened.

**Platuan4th**

Considering Hydra Cordatus happened specifically so that Perturabo could bribe Abby with the geneseed to keep the Iron Warriors out of the Black 13th, I'd say Abby's already done what you're asking.

**MrPyro**

No one bows to a man with thirteen failures and no arms. No one.

**No wolves on Fenris**

MrPyro wrote:
No one bows to a man with thirteen failures and no arms. No one.

At least give him a hand for trying!

**TheLumberJack**

As a leader, Abby is probably better than the traitor primarchs. Would they bow down to him, no, because they could all kill him if they really wanted to. But if they really want to finish off the imperium following his plans would be a good idea

**Ynneadwraith**

I see it more as Abaddon has to go around and court their favour in order to win their support. The Daemon Primarchs are significantly more powerful than Abaddon, but it's Abaddon that's actually got the drive and ambition to do things.

Perhaps Abaddon will pull something off that will force one or more of them to kneel before him. More likely he will have to complete Herculean tasks to prove his worth, or trick them into compliance.

**Ketara**

jareddm wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.
Which is exactly what happened.

To wit, he bribed Mortarion, Perturabo, and Fulgrim, beat up some of Angron's lieutenants to get his grudging approval, and Lorgar liked him already on account of the fact the Gods did. If Alpharius/Omegon are still alive, he likely couldn't find them, and Magnus told him to get lost. So yes and no. He's had some success, but he hasn't managed to intimidate any into submission that I'm aware of.

For an example of what the Chaos Gods mean in 40K verse to the Primarchs, check out Mortarion and Typhon's relationship. Typhon smacktalks to his dad and keeps ranting at him that he stands higher in Nurgle's favour and therefore doesn't have to take orders from Mortarion. At the same time though, Typhon's higher standing in no way stops Mortarion from looking down on Typhon a spot, or makes him obey Typhon. Mortarion still does more or less what he likes.

Compare that to someone not even directly in your God's service or a member of your legion? He might be able to win a Primarch's respect, or bribe them, but dear old Abby is never going to be their boss no matter what the Gods think of him.

**TapedTempest**

I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

Edit: I don't see how Abaddon could outplay any of the Daemon Primarchs and force/trick them into submission, considering that although some of the Daemon Primarchs aren't in good standings with each other, I don't think any of them would like to see Abaddon amass a force as strong as the Black Legion AND a Daemon Primarch (along with his legion most likely). If the unlikely occurrence of Abaddon gaining control of a Daemon Primarch were to happen, I'd go as far as to say a Chaos civil war could start.

**BrianDavion**

TapedTempest wrote:
I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

alright, now what if they tried... and failed?

**djones520**

Platuan4th wrote:
Considering Hydra Cordatus happened specifically so that Perturabo could bribe Abby with the geneseed to keep the Iron Warriors out of the Black 13th, I'd say Abby's already done what you're asking.

It wasn't so Perturabo could, it was the Warsmith who did it. Perturabo has gone full emo, locked himself in his room and won't come out. I gaurantee you though that Perturabo would sooner crush Abbadon then listen to the upstart demand anything from him.

**TapedTempest**

BrianDavion wrote:
TapedTempest wrote:
I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

alright, now what if they tried... and failed?

I can't imagine a Daemon Primarch failing to kill Abaddon, but if one did, it'd probably result in a war between the Black Legion and whatever legion the Primarch belongs to. This war could expand into something bigger, depending on if other legions and warbands pick sides.

**BrianDavion**

TapedTempest wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
TapedTempest wrote:
I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

alright, now what if they tried... and failed?

I can't imagine a Daemon Primarch failing to kill Abaddon, but if one did, it'd probably result in a war between the Black Legion and whatever legion the Primarch belongs to. This war could expand into something bigger, depending on if other legions and warbands pick sides.

I can imagine it pretty easily, the Deamon Primarchs are well.. Deamons now, their power is, quite literally, dependant on their patron, if their patron god wanted Abbaddon to kick the crap out of them, suddenly, he'd be able to.

**TapedTempest**

BrianDavion wrote:
TapedTempest wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
TapedTempest wrote:
I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

alright, now what if they tried... and failed?

I can't imagine a Daemon Primarch failing to kill Abaddon, but if one did, it'd probably result in a war between the Black Legion and whatever legion the Primarch belongs to. This war could expand into something bigger, depending on if other legions and warbands pick sides.

I can imagine it pretty easily, the Deamon Primarchs are well.. Deamons now, their power is, quite literally, dependant on their patron, if their patron god wanted Abbaddon to kick the crap out of them, suddenly, he'd be able to.

What about the Undivided Daemon Primarchs? Plus, although it'd be pretty funny for one of the gods to do that, I don't see why they'd want their strongest champion to get pummeled by Abaddon.

**ProwlerPC**

Tzeentch might do it for lulz while shouting JUST AS PLANNED!

**Platuan4th**

djones520 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Considering Hydra Cordatus happened specifically so that Perturabo could bribe Abby with the geneseed to keep the Iron Warriors out of the Black 13th, I'd say Abby's already done what you're asking.

It wasn't so Perturabo could, it was the Warsmith who did it. Perturabo has gone full emo, locked himself in his room and won't come out. I gaurantee you though that Perturabo would sooner crush Abbadon then listen to the upstart demand anything from him.

I'll have to find the exact line, but the Honsou mentions in the book(at least the first edition) that Perturabo himself tasked the Warsmith to take Hydra Cordatus at Abbadon's bequest.

**TapedTempest**

Platuan4th wrote:
Considering Hydra Cordatus happened specifically so that Perturabo could bribe Abby with the geneseed to keep the Iron Warriors out of the Black 13th, I'd say Abby's already done what you're asking.

I don't think this situation could be considered as Perturabo "bowing down to Abaddon" though.

**Point_blank**

Magnus is so big that if he bowed down Abaddon would still have to look up

**fallinq**

Point_blank wrote:
Magnus is so big that if he bowed down Abaddon would still have to look up

Magnus, Alpharius, and Lorgar are actually the three daemon primarchs I could see most easily serving Abaddon, or at least pretending to, because all three of them are willing to put pursuing their agendas above their own egos.

For Angron, Fulgrim, and probably Mortarion I'd say no way. Of course Mortarion got pwnd by

ing Kaldor Draigo, so while it would reek of bad, Mary Sue writing, it's entirely in modern GW's wheelhouse to have Abaddon just curb stomp them all in single combat because "he's the uberest".

It'd be a lot better if Abaddon teamed up with the first 3 and then used strategy to pressure the other ones into join him, but I'm not overly confident in a lot GW's fluff lately.

I mean, they gave us Primaris Marines, aka "even more super super soldiers!" I don't mind the models, but so much of the fluff seems like it was written by a 13 year old who needs to make everything more powerful and special versions of established stuff without actually adding anything creative or new.

**Sgt. Cortez**

During his centuries of exile, Abaddon has visited each of the six Daemon Primarchs in turn, seeking their aid in his quest to destroy the Imperium of Man. From Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, he gained the favour of Khorne. In the blood-soaked depths of the Goreswirl, the Despoiler fought the Primarch's daemonic champions, sending each one screaming back into the Warp in a terrifying spectacle of blood and death.
From Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, he earned the putrescent embrace of Nurgle in exchange for the Hand of Darkness. The decaying Daemon lord promised to use the ancient artefact to craft a plague that would stir the rotting dead to life, provided the Warmaster would see it spread among the stars.
Though Magnus the Red, Primarch of the Thousand Sons, refused Abaddon's requests for audience, the Despoiler still gained the blessing of Tzeentch in exchange for the Eye of Night, the sightless remnant of the Stone God. He turned instead to Ahriman, greatest of the Legion's sorcerers, who alone could see the extent of Abaddon's plan and pledged his Rubricae in alliance.
From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god. Ancient hatreds were set aside as the Emperor's Children aligned themselves with the Black Legion.
From Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers, the Warmaster learned rare secrets of Daemon binding and the raising of vast Warp hosts from beyond the Eye. Presented with an opportunity to subvert and destroy the Church of the GodEmperor, the Word Bearers turned a blind eye to their feud with the Emperor's Children and focused their hatred on the Imperium of Man and its corpse-god.
From Perturabo, Primarch of the Iron Warriors, the Despoiler was given vast daemonic engines of battle fashioned deep within the Eye of Terror, each the match for armies oflesser foes. Eager to test their strength and ingenuity against the towering fortresses and formidable defences of Cadia, the Iron Warriors themselves also joined Abaddon's war effort.
Though their Primarchs were no more, Abaddon gathered together splintered warbands of Night Lords and the Alpha Legion, promising them a place as equals among the Traitors. Many within both Legions painted their armour black and joined the Despoiler completely.

Well, even if he's not the strongest out there, Abbi gets gak done. Together with Magnus he created the Cicatrix Maledictum, so everybody saying he only failed is not up to date.
Most of the Daemon primarchs have been described as rather passive so far (obviously that's changing), resulting in the fracturing of their legions.

**ProwlerPC**

Daemons bleed like us? I suppose with Khorne being the blood god and all. Failbaddon sending them back to the warp in a spectacle of blood and death confirms it.....I suppose. Oh GeeDubs.

**jhe90**

They can see his value plus unlike the deamons, he can exist in realspace far easier.

They have rules attached, he does not.
He is a very usful tool to break imperium

**Animus**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

They already bowed to him. Abaddon is Warmaster and favoured of the Gods.

**Ketara**

Animus wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

They already bowed to him. Abaddon is Warmaster and favoured of the Gods.

Did you literally not bother reading the thread? Magnus refused and Alpharius is unknown.

**TapedTempest**

jhe90 wrote:
They can see his value plus unlike the deamons, he can exist in realspace far easier.

They have rules attached, he does not.
He is a very usful tool to break imperium

This seems like the most plausible answer. Chaos has one general goal, which is to destroy the Imperium. Abaddon can go to certain lengths much easier than a Daemon Primarch, and although he may not be as physically strong as them, he can still get stuff done. I'm sure Daemon Primarchs wouldn't mind collaborating with Abaddon, but I doubt any of them would bow to him.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Gulliman will definitely bow to Horus. Likely even lick his feet and call him daddy.

**jhe90**

Ketara wrote:
Animus wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

They already bowed to him. Abaddon is Warmaster and favoured of the Gods.

Did you literally not bother reading the thread? Magnus refused and Alpharius is unknown.

Less bow. Quite a few he had to work hard to get, and he got favour, nor bow, or submission.
He can always lose those favours if they decide to withdraw it.

He had to also buy some and get one off not Magnus as he told him to get lost.
Angron would never bow to anyone bar khrone.

So. Abaddon is a tool. He ain't like Horus. Horus was a equal. Abaddon is a very successful chaos lord but still ain't a equal.

**Supertony51**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
During his centuries of exile, Abaddon has visited each of the six Daemon Primarchs in turn, seeking their aid in his quest to destroy the Imperium of Man. From Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, he gained the favour of Khorne. In the blood-soaked depths of the Goreswirl, the Despoiler fought the Primarch's daemonic champions, sending each one screaming back into the Warp in a terrifying spectacle of blood and death.
From Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, he earned the putrescent embrace of Nurgle in exchange for the Hand of Darkness. The decaying Daemon lord promised to use the ancient artefact to craft a plague that would stir the rotting dead to life, provided the Warmaster would see it spread among the stars.
Though Magnus the Red, Primarch of the Thousand Sons, refused Abaddon's requests for audience, the Despoiler still gained the blessing of Tzeentch in exchange for the Eye of Night, the sightless remnant of the Stone God. He turned instead to Ahriman, greatest of the Legion's sorcerers, who alone could see the extent of Abaddon's plan and pledged his Rubricae in alliance.
From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god. Ancient hatreds were set aside as the Emperor's Children aligned themselves with the Black Legion.
From Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers, the Warmaster learned rare secrets of Daemon binding and the raising of vast Warp hosts from beyond the Eye. Presented with an opportunity to subvert and destroy the Church of the GodEmperor, the Word Bearers turned a blind eye to their feud with the Emperor's Children and focused their hatred on the Imperium of Man and its corpse-god.
From Perturabo, Primarch of the Iron Warriors, the Despoiler was given vast daemonic engines of battle fashioned deep within the Eye of Terror, each the match for armies oflesser foes. Eager to test their strength and ingenuity against the towering fortresses and formidable defences of Cadia, the Iron Warriors themselves also joined Abaddon's war effort.
Though their Primarchs were no more, Abaddon gathered together splintered warbands of Night Lords and the Alpha Legion, promising them a place as equals among the Traitors. Many within both Legions painted their armour black and joined the Despoiler completely.

Well, even if he's not the strongest out there, Abbi gets gak done. Together with Magnus he created the Cicatrix Maledictum, so everybody saying he only failed is not up to date.
Most of the Daemon primarchs have been described as rather passive so far (obviously that's changing), resulting in the fracturing of their legions.

I'm a little confused, doesn't the lore say that Lorgar has been meditating for 10k years and hasn't spoken to anyone, did this get retconned?

**OgreChubbs**

I think the daemon primarchs are all but lost. The greater gods would slowly use them and abuse them til little is left but an embodiment of the god themselves. So I do not think they bow unless the god so want that them too.

**Animus**

Ketara wrote:
Animus wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

They already bowed to him. Abaddon is Warmaster and favoured of the Gods.

Did you literally not bother reading the thread? Magnus refused and Alpharius is unknown.

Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.