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What armies/subsections of armies are people finding the most effective or most fun in CC play?

I am building Admech right now but its very shooty so if I was to collect a second army for fun I was wondering about more in your face options

Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

Shooting is dominating at the top, but CC has not been neutered, it is very much viable. In my opinion the best CC-units are Boyz, Genestealers, Troupes, and Bezerkers, ranked in that order. Spacewolves and BA are probably also contenders, but I have very little experience there.

Bangles Death Company.

They get 2 attacks, +1 attack on the charge, and with chainswords get another.

Stick them with bolters, chainswords, and jet packs. Now you can shoot, charge, fight, fight again in the opponent's turn. If you need to fall back in your turn you can still shoot thanks to the FLY keyword.

Their jetpacks move 12" and ignore intervening terrain. They have a 6+++ "feel no pain" save.

If you want more punch you can give them power weapons or thunder hammers.

I'm banking on CC AdMech actually being pretty decent; more so than it was in 7th.
None of the HQ's support it, but that doesn't mean to say we can't pull it off like the rest of them.
Besides, most of my 8th matches have had the enemy get right in my face, and my gun lines suffering for it. (4x4 tables don't help that).

Giving the old Kastellan Deathstar a go this weekend. Aegis Protocol + Shroudpsalm is bound to get those guys where they need to be. Just a shame we can't /yet/ get the Raiment of the Technomartyr involved again; 5+ FnP with IWND was sound.

Probably World Eaters or Genestealers.

WE can protect their guys and maybe advance up turn one to get ready for turn two. Genestealers are fairly cheap and can use Tyrannocte if necessary.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Furthermore, isn't the point of a CC army to get the whole army in combat?

Why feed the enemy parts of your army in drips and drabs? Why not assault as an army, get multiple units and deny shooting for multiple units?

Sure, Fly units can negate this entirely...that's not the Fall Back rules fault though.

World Eaters and Alpha Legion are pretty good cc armies at the moment: World Eaters hit like a truck with Berzerkers and Terminators and Alpha Legion can infiltrate cc units for garanteed first turn charges.

It's definitely easier to go for a shooting army in 8th (as it always has been): Alpha Legion Dreadnoughts, Obliterators and Havocs sitting back all with the mark of Slaanesh are extremely powerful with a -1 to hit them and strategems that let them fire twice. But that doesn't mean cc armies can't be good, just means you have to work harder and be much smarter about what you charge each turn as well as seeing several turns ahead to be able to make cascading charges.

1.) Bring lots of Khorne Berserkers and Warp Talons (for flyers).
2.) Take the World Eater Legion Trait.
3.) Charge forward
4.) Get a grade AAA Angus Steak
5.) Season well with your opponent's salty tears.

And that's how you make Khorned Beef.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Your so wrong it's sad. CQC is terrible and can't win anything competitively. Sure, you can win with combat armies at noncompetitive events locally, but that's all they're good for.


Disagree? Show me one good result from a large event by a CC army.

Wasn't there a major tournament about a month ago that was won by an Ork list?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) Bring lots of Khorne Berserkers and Warp Talons (for flyers).
2.) Take the World Eater Legion Trait.
3.) Charge forward
4.) Get a grade AAA Angus Steak
5.) Season well with your opponent's salty tears.

And that's how you make Khorned Beef.

Except Angus is garbage, fit only for chain and fast-food restaurants (and definitely not AAA material).

Jaynen wrote:
What armies/subsections of armies are people finding the most effective or most fun in CC play?

I am building Admech right now but its very shooty so if I was to collect a second army for fun I was wondering about more in your face options

8th edition seems to reward forces with low tactical options less than previous editions. Having your entire army be a one trick pony of charge and chop is likely to get you outmaneuvered and shot to pieces by a more balanced force.

In my own limited games, I've had good luck with Assault Marines, Ogryns, Rough Riders, and of course genestealers. My opponents have done well with World Eaters, Daemon Princes, Terminators, and even just normal Rubric marines.

You just need to think tactically and use your CC units like a scalpel, and not a hammer.

The only thing difficult for CC army right now is that people can leave combat. so it screws over mediocre tar pit type units.

its fine for units that are designed to completely wipe out a unit. though they will still get shot the following turn.

so you better aim your pointy sticks wisely and take out threats properly.

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Your so wrong it's sad. CQC is terrible and can't win anything competitively. Sure, you can win with combat armies at noncompetitive events locally, but that's all they're good for.


Disagree? Show me one good result from a large event by a CC army.

You have no idea/Your so wrong it's sad??? Really can't people talk nicely. The OP said fun. Not WAAC tourney only bull. Seriously things aren't only Great or Terrible, just because it's not the very top of the pops doesn't make it crap. There are plenty of viable Assault builds, as listed by others, I've found genestealers really fun and good. But along as your playing with a fair amount of terrain cqc is very effective, power weapons/ap buffs in 8th really help chomp even with just marine lists.

Voss wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) Bring lots of Khorne Berserkers and Warp Talons (for flyers).
2.) Take the World Eater Legion Trait.
3.) Charge forward
4.) Get a grade AAA Angus Steak
5.) Season well with your opponent's salty tears.

And that's how you make Khorned Beef.

Except Angus is garbage, fit only for chain and fast-food restaurants (and definitely not AAA material).

But Khorned Beef is a preserved meat. You never use a good cut for preserved meat! :U

jkz.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) Bring lots of Khorne Berserkers and Warp Talons (for flyers).
2.) Take the World Eater Legion Trait.
3.) Charge forward
4.) Get a grade AAA Angus Steak
5.) Season well with your opponent's salty tears.

And that's how you make Khorned Beef.

Except Angus is garbage, fit only for chain and fast-food restaurants (and definitely not AAA material).

But Khorned Beef is a preserved meat. You never use a good cut for preserved meat! :U

jkz.

NEVER take food advice from a follower of Nurgle, seriously it can make you sick.

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Your so wrong it's sad. CQC is terrible and can't win anything competitively. Sure, you can win with combat armies at noncompetitive events locally, but that's all they're good for.


Disagree? Show me one good result from a large event by a CC army.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Courtney-Rhodes-3rd-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Jeremy-Veysseire-2nd-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rupert-Campbell-3rd-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf

Now tell me how these melee-oriented lists that won and placed in major 8th ed GTs are "gimmick" lists that don't count while shooting lists like this http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf are somehow "normal TAC shooting lists"

the_scotsman wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Your so wrong it's sad. CQC is terrible and can't win anything competitively. Sure, you can win with combat armies at noncompetitive events locally, but that's all they're good for.


Disagree? Show me one good result from a large event by a CC army.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Courtney-Rhodes-3rd-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Jeremy-Veysseire-2nd-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rupert-Campbell-3rd-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf

Now tell me how these melee-oriented lists that won and placed in major 8th ed GTs are "gimmick" lists that don't count while shooting lists like this http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf are somehow "normal TAC shooting lists"

So Ynnari and Orks are doing great.


Close combat still sucks for most of the non horde armies.

I have been having luck wombo comboing Deathwing knights and will be adding a lib to take vail of time to re roll their charge. I mean when they deep strike in, i have my lib ready to go to cast vail of time to reroll my charge, and when DW knights get in CC WEW LADS. They just decimate unit. I tote Belial along with so they re roll all their hits as well.

CC is not dead, but the only way its really viable now is you need units that hit hard and either take out the whole squad in a single round of combat, or cripple them to where they die from battle shock or are just worthless.

 Brutallica wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Right now, none are. CC has been neutered and with consequence free fallback being a thing, you'll only ever get 1 round of combat unless you surround the enemy, and even then only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

If you want the "best" CC, go for Berserkers or Genestealers. A unit of 20 Genestealers will literally Delete 17 Marines or 13 T5 MEQ in a round of combat ON AVERAGE.

You have no idea what you're saying.

CQC is hilariously powerful if played right. However, it isn't point-and-click to win. You have to pick your charge targets carefully.

Your so wrong it's sad. CQC is terrible and can't win anything competitively. Sure, you can win with combat armies at noncompetitive events locally, but that's all they're good for.


Disagree? Show me one good result from a large event by a CC army.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Courtney-Rhodes-3rd-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Jeremy-Veysseire-2nd-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rupert-Campbell-3rd-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf

Now tell me how these melee-oriented lists that won and placed in major 8th ed GTs are "gimmick" lists that don't count while shooting lists like this http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf are somehow "normal TAC shooting lists"

So Ynnari and Orks are doing great.


Close combat still sucks for most of the non horde armies.

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Oh that's weird, the goalposts have moved over there, how did that happen? Since Guard, Space Marines, and the odd Sisters list is all we've seen from all-shooting armies, does that mean shooting also sucks for most armies?

This data is also pre-codex bonuses, pre-obsec for all troops and pre-flyer nerfs.

The biggest problem with close combat is armies that can't reliably get their units into combat early to tie up gunlines before they can rock their socks. The close combat armies we've seen dominate haven't been just hordes, they've been armies that can reliably drop in or run up and tie things in place quickly. Swarmlord with a shitton of genestealers. ork boyz jumping across the board and re-rolling that 9" charge by default. We haven't seen the effects of granting those kinds of reliability bonuses through subfaction tactics and stratagems - Black Templars, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Renegades spring to mind - just as we also haven't seen how flyer nerfs will affect the frequency of those highly disadvantageous matchups with melee lists.

Negatives for CC in 8th:
- Enemies can fall back (so no more hiding in combat).
- Open-topped transports no longer grant any bonuses to melee troops.
- Melee no longer necessary to deal with enemies in cover.
- No sweeping-advance.
- With the Movement stat, some Assault units are now slower.
- Flamers do about twice the damage on Overwatch.

Positives:
- Every vehicle is now an Assault vehicle.
- With the Movement stat, most Assault units and transports are faster than before.
- Cover no longer slows you if you lack Frag Grenades.
- You always strike first when charging.
- Command Points make charges a lot more reliable.
- You can consolidate into other units if you wipe out a unit in combat.
- A single model can charge and attack multiple units (assuming they're close together).

Overall, I like the new combat mechanics. The only thing I really dislike about them is the lack of any bonus for being in an Open-topped transport.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
only if they can't FLY (which is half of the units in the game).

... right. As an Ad Mech player with not a singly FLY unit, could we have a show of hands from any army that has enough FLY units in their codex to make up for my lack of them and still make the average HALF the units in the game?.. no? No one?


Here's what grinds my gears. People with CC armies whine that Fallback has made CC useless. Fallback is a rule that was made for you.

"WHAT" you say "But Purifier, how can that be! I can only think as far as my nose reaches, so please, explain it to me!"
Why, I'd be happy to.

Look back at the history of 40k. There has never been a balance between ranged and melee. One has always been dominating the other. This is because melee was always a binary strategy. You either got into melee, and because of how that then locked the ranged army that was nothing but fodder for your axes in combat you had basically won the game at that point. So in order for them to have a chance, getting into combat has to be hard. And when getting into combat is hard, you're often not going to get into close combat and when a close combat army can't get into close combat... well they lose.

So the balance you have to reach is paper thin in a game that's balanced by ewoks wearing spacesuit gloves.

What Fallback does is it opens it up. If ending up in close combat doesn't mean we auto-lose, then melee is opened up to get into combat easier. It's the rule that opens up for melee buffs. This allows for a more back-and-forth game than simply "if I can hold you off, I win, If you get into combat you win."

If we go back to the dumb binary way of doing things without fallback, then you can bet your dingleberries the balance will favour ranged, because there is a whole crudload more ranged armies than there are melee specialists.

With regard to fallback, one thing I really like is that there's no longer an incentive to not kill your enemy in combat.

It always bugged me that that was somehow advantageous.

Indeed. And my guys no longer fear tarpits charging them.

Dedicated melee doesn't seem to work, but melee as a cornerstone of a combined-arms plan seems to work very well. Bring multi-purpose units that can shoot as well as charge, Deep Strikers, units that move well under their own power, and enough firepower to clear chaff/soften hard targets first and you should be fine.

(The assault-heavy armies that have scared me most on the table thus far in 8th are a Ynnari Harlequin list that uses shuriken cannons, fusion pistols, and a borrowed Hemlock to help them pick the right fights, and a Dark Angels list running a Dreadnaught firebase to soften up the enemy before the Deathwing drop in to finish the job. And the assault units that have done the most work for me are Shining Spears (who have the speed to pick fights, the hitting power to kill things, and the firepower to contribute without charging if necessary) and Relic Contemptors (who have a worrying amount of firepower on top of their ability to absorb hits, the speed to avoid units that can actually hurt them, and enough durability that the number of units that threaten them in melee is fairly low).)

Wondering if anyone else shares my take that Orks may be the best cc army right now, but they themselves are not very good against Berzerkers.

Haven't played against a Green Tide list myself but have seen a couple games where 5 man Berzerker squads were tearing up 30 man boyz squads in a single round. The double activation and saving throws is a huge advantage against hordes.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Wondering if anyone else shares my take that Orks may be the best cc army right now, but they themselves are not very good against Berzerkers.

Haven't played against a Green Tide list myself but have seen a couple games where 5 man Berzerker squads were tearing up 30 man boyz squads in a single round. The double activation and saving throws is a huge advantage against hordes.

I played a game where Kharn led three units of 5 man Zerkers into two units of 30 man Boyz and whiped them in a turn, this was before the CSM codex. Because no one takes Boyz in trukks anymore, it is so easy to get the charge on them and whipe them in a turn.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Wondering if anyone else shares my take that Orks may be the best cc army right now, but they themselves are not very good against Berzerkers.

Haven't played against a Green Tide list myself but have seen a couple games where 5 man Berzerker squads were tearing up 30 man boyz squads in a single round. The double activation and saving throws is a huge advantage against hordes.

Yeah outside of a few very specific situations you should never ever get into close combat with a unit of khorne bezerkers. the specific situation being you've got the drop with a unit that will 100% wipe them in just a single unit's activation before they can CP interrupt.

Luckily, they're really not that hard to kill with a mix of shooting, that specific situation, and the occasional surround-n-pop maneuver on a rhino.