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Prior to Robout Guiliman being resurrected.by the merry bunch. The tally of Loyalist Primarchs vs their Chaos tainted brethren seemed to me like most of the Chaos Primarchs survived versus the uncertainty or the death of the loyalists.

Why was the reasoning behind that?

Why not make it equal and not favored towards Chaos?

Ours had Hell to hide in and actual Gods backing them up. Yours were running around trying to put fires out with a moldering corpse on a toilet at the helm.

Seems about right.

 Eldarain wrote:
Ours had Hell to hide in and actual Gods backing them up. Yours were running around trying to put fires out with a

moldering corpse on a toilet at the helm.

Seems about right.

That makes no sense, The emperor was still alive and off the golden throne when the Chaos Primarchs attacked.

 Sylhfer wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Ours had Hell to hide in and actual Gods backing them up. Yours were running around trying to put fires out with a

moldering corpse on a toilet at the helm.

Seems about right.

That makes no sense, The emperor was still alive and off the golden throne when the Chaos Primarchs attacked.

And was then crippled to a near-death state at the same moment that caused them to retreat into the warp (killing Horus).
The loyalists Primarchs fell or ran off into the great beyond trying to keep the Imperium together.

That said though, the number isn't that different. Confirmed Loyalist Death include Sanguinius & Ferrus (Dorn is unclear in the new canon). Confirmed dead traitors are Horus & Kurze (It is unclear if Omegon replaces Alpharius being killed by Guilliman in the current canon). The rest of the loyalists kind of just went off to do their own thing (or in Guilliman's case, brought back to life).

You can argue the fluff either way. Chaos Primarchs may have had gods backing them up, but at the same time they probably had whole temples of Imperial Assassins hunting them. Not that I care either way, but if the situation had been reversed, the fluff would have backed it up just as well.

In the end, does it really matter? Chaos has more Primarchs, Imperium has more characters in general and tons more toys. As long as the game is fun and the fluff mildly amusing/interesting, what is there to really complain about?

 Sylhfer wrote:
Prior to Robout Guiliman being resurrected.by the merry bunch. The tally of Loyalist Primarchs vs their Chaos tainted brethren seemed to me like most of the Chaos Primarchs survived versus the uncertainty or the death of the loyalists.

Why was the reasoning behind that?

Why not make it equal and not favored towards Chaos?

Because Imperials live and die for the Emperor.

Followers of chaos are irredeemably lost, slaves to darkness in an eternity of servitude.

It's thematic.

Some of the loyalists having Arthurian legends providing mechanics for their primarchs to possibly return represented the tiny, impossible speck of hope in the sea of grimdark.

It's more Grim-Dark that way.

There is no favour towards chaos.

Number of Dead Primarchs:
Loyalists - 2
Heretics - 2

Number of possibly dead possibly alive Primarchs:
Loyalists - 1
Heretics - 1

Number of Primarchs waiting to return:
Loyalists - 5
Heretics - 4 (This imbalance is just because Morty has only just come back so we haven't had chance for a loyalist Primarch to return yet)

Number of Primarchs returned:
Loyalists - 1
Heretics - 2 (See above)

In terms of why the Daemon Primarchs seem to be still here whilst the loyalists don't in the fluff is that over the last 10,000 years the loyalist Primarchs have been lost in the warp and the webway whilst the Daemon Primarchs just reset to the warp whenever they are beaten. Right now the Loyalist Primarchs are waiting for a proficy to be fulfilled, to be discovered by the Imperium, for the warp to spit them back out again, etc. and the Daemon Primarchs are waiting for their plan to set into motion, to respawn from their banishment, to reveal that they were Guilliman all along, etc.

Well originally it was because GW realised that having the Primarks alive in the present timeline damages the hopeless, dystopian future that they had created. The Primachs being long lost almost mythical heroes accentuated how far humanity had fallen from it's glory days.

That is why you saw a backlash against the resurrection of Roboute, because it fundamentally changes the tone of the universe to have goodie Primarks running around the Imperium.

 mrhappyface wrote:
There is no favour towards chaos.

Number of Dead Primarchs:
Loyalists - 2
Heretics - 2

Number of possibly dead possibly alive Primarchs:
Loyalists - 1
Heretics - 1

Number of Primarchs waiting to return:
Loyalists - 5
Heretics - 4 (This imbalance is just because Morty has only just come back so we haven't had chance for a loyalist Primarch to return yet)

Number of Primarchs returned:
Loyalists - 1
Heretics - 2 (See above)

In terms of why the Daemon Primarchs seem to be still here whilst the loyalists don't in the fluff is that over the last 10,000 years the loyalist Primarchs have been lost in the warp and the webway whilst the Daemon Primarchs just reset to the warp whenever they are beaten. Right now the Loyalist Primarchs are waiting for a proficy to be fulfilled, to be discovered by the Imperium, for the warp to spit them back out again, etc. and the Daemon Primarchs are waiting for their plan to set into motion, to respawn from their banishment, to reveal that they were Guilliman all along, etc.

Not entirely equal though, in terms of number of Primarchs waiting to return. Fulgrim and Angron are alive as per the fluff I think, and I still have some Epic models representing them. They may not have a 40k miniature or stats at the moment, but they are 'alive'. For the 'waiting to return loyalists' it is unclear if they are alive or dead.

Malachon wrote:
Not entirely equal though, in terms of number of Primarchs waiting to return. Fulgrim and Angron are alive as per the fluff I think, and I still have some Epic models representing them. They may not have a 40k miniature or stats at the moment, but they are 'alive'. For the 'waiting to return loyalists' it is unclear if they are alive or dead.

Loyalist Primarchs:
Lion - Confirmed still alive on the rock.
Khan - Still alive, lost in the webway.
Russ - Still alive, lost in the warp
Dorn - <--- Only one we don't if dead or alive.
Vulken - Alive, he's immortal.
Corax - Still alive, lost in the warp.

Yes there is a slighty more ambiguity when it comes to the fate of the Loyalist primarchs but that is just because you can't do any mysteries surrounding the daemon primarchs as to their fates because they are immortal beings of the warp.

Primarily it is about GrimDark. The Imperium is in dire straights because all its greatest heroes are dead while its villains are banging on its front door.

From a background PoV, you could argue that the forces of Chaos made a big effort to get rid of the remaining loyalist Primarchs precisely because they had the ability to keep the Imperium united, organised and inspired after the Horus Heresy. With the Imperial Webway project destroyed and the Emperor crippled after his battle with Horus, there was little chance of Imperial victory, but removing the Primarchs certainly help accelerate the decay of the Imperium.

In game terms, I think both sides could feasibly have 6-7 Primarchs running about by the end of 8th edition. One source from GW claimed that the intention was to leave Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus and Curze dead since their deaths had the most impact on the 40K background. Bringing any of them back would fundamentally change the character of their surviving sons.

I like how they dealt with Horus's return. It was written that he could never return, so when Horus did 'sort of' returned he was completely stamped out (again) with a resounding "No, that chapter is complete and we can never go back to the way things were".

Aslandon the Despoiler .

Only a handful of Primarchs actually died during the Heresy, the majority of primarchs actually survived past it. Unfortunately the Daemon Primarchs had achieved Apotheosis shortly after the Heresy, making them literally Immortal. They also tend not to jump into realspace (at least not until recently), with some being such a recluse that their own legion haven't even seen them in eons. By contrast, the remaining Primarchs fought desperately in the wake of the heresy to try and hold up the Imperium, and time takes it's toll.

However the reasons for their disappearance/inaction was because GW had an unspoken rule back in 4th edition: Never bring in the big players. This meant the Chaos Gods, the Daemon Primarchs, the normal Primarchs, the High Lords of Terra, Norn Queens, Gork and Mork, the Eldar Gods, and so forth. This was an unspoken rule specifically because these characters are on such a different level that they either have to be OP as hell or have their rules feel nothing like what they're suppose to be in fluff (which sort of happened with Guilliman, Magnus, and soon to be Mortarion). The reason this came about was because the C'tans, the star gods, ended up being really underwhelming due to their actual tabletop rules; despite still being ridiculously powerful, you could put them down with a good round of shooting from Rattlings. Almighty Star Gods that could reshape worlds and fight the embodiment of emotions could be put down by a few hobbit sharpshooters with fancy flashlights (I also believe this was the motivation for them turning the C'tans into shards in 5th).

The loyalist primarchs are still human. They are not immortal. Even a genetically engineered super human has a finite lifespan because he is ... human. Meanwhile, a daemon primarch will never die and is effectively immortal.

It is already a stretch to have some of those loyalist primarchs come back. By right, no matter how long lived they are, they should have all died by now.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The loyalist primarchs are still human. They are not immortal.

They are not human, they never were. They are immortal.

There was fluff mentioning last time that the loyalist primarchs eventually all died or disappeared precisely because they were human and not immortal. If they are still alive today after ten thousand years, its likely only because they were lost in the warp, which bends even the laws of time and space.

The fallen Primarchs made a deal with the gods for their immortality in daemonhood. The loyalist ones did not, and were therefore lost in some way, shape or form.

I don't recall any fluff for the loyalist primarchs dying after the heresy. I know Vulkan in the Great Beast series but he is a perpetual. Care to point me in what direction you found this fluff Firefly? I'd like to think I'm fairly well read but I don't recall this at all lol

In 2nd ed Codex Imperialis it mentioned the Primarchs were too human (leading to their fall or death/disappearance in the aftermath of the heresy).

Or course, GW have significantly redetailed who and what the primarchs were. These days they are only really human in terms of character or metaphor.

It was also stated in the fluff that Dante is one of the oldest living space marine and yet he is two hundred over years old only? We are talking about ten thousand years since the Horus Heresey.

Long lived does not equal immortal.

Besides, it has already been demonstrated that a loyalist primarch can be killed. Some have died already. So, they are certainly not immortal. Whereas the very definition of a demon is that it can never be truly killed, only banished back to the warp.

Like I mentioned before. It is possible that a primarch can get lost in the warp where time has no meaning. That is likely the best way for a primarch to reappear ten thousand years after the horus heresy. The other way is to be locked in stasis like how Gulliman was. Time has to literally stand still for a loyalist primarch for these ten thousand years.

I am sure GW can use these ways to bring back some of the loyalist primarchs. But this is not the same as saying they are immortal. They are not. Once they come back, they start aging again, and are also vulnerable to being killed again.

The only way they can become immortal would be if the emperor ascends to godhood and he infuses his holy might into the loyalist primarchs such that they become either avatars or ascend to the equivalent of saints or angels. (ie, the opposite of the daemon primarchs).

This is also why statwise, you are not going to see loyalist primarchs with 18 wounds and T7 like how Magnus or Mortarion is. Its to represent that the loyalist primarchs are human. If you want them to have daemon primarch equivalent stats, then they need to ascend (to angelhood or the equivalent). And they can't ascend because the emperor is not yet a true god like the chaos gods.

This is why I dont understand why there is such reluctance to move forward with the plot. If you want the loyalist primarchs to stand toe to toe against a daemon primarch, then the emperor needs to attain godhood, and all the loyalist primarchs need to ascend.

The Primarchs may be immortal in terms of meaning that they can't die of natural illness or old age. I'm not sure if it's ever elaborated on.

Eldenfirefly wrote:It was also stated in the fluff that Dante is one of the oldest living space marine and yet he is two hundred over years old only? We are talking about ten thousand years since the Horus Heresey.

Dante is over one thousand years old.

This is why I dont understand why there is such reluctance to move forward with the plot. If you want the loyalist primarchs to stand toe to toe against a daemon primarch, then the emperor needs to attain godhood, and all the loyalist primarchs need to ascend.

A lot of people don't want Loyalist Primarchs back at all. Still, it's possible for a Loyalist Primarch to defeat a Daemon Primarch. Ascending to Daemonhood comes with its own disadvantages and it's feasible a Loyalist Primarch could weaken their connection to the Warp (by destroying devices for maintaining such a connection) or using their True Name or just good old fashioned team work.

Lepermessiah2012 wrote:
I don't recall any fluff for the loyalist primarchs dying after the heresy. I know Vulkan in the Great Beast series but he is a perpetual. Care to point me in what direction you found this fluff Firefly? I'd like to think I'm fairly well read but I don't recall this at all lol

Gulliman was killed by Fulgrim (although he was later resurrected).

Dorn was apparently killed leading an assault on the bridge of a Chaos flagship and thus stalling a Black crusade. According to Curze's vision it took a shed load of CSM in a confined space to drag him down. I think this is the only example of a Primarch being killed by mortal opponents rather than the Big E, another Primarch or a daemon.

The Night Haunter said nothing, but in his mind's eye, he saw the giant die, dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warrior's blood.

Johnson was believed killed fighting Luther during the fall of Caliban. Only the readers know that he survived in hibernation inside the Rock.

Khan, Russ and Corax all disappeared under mysterious circumstances. Vulkan seems to be on guard duty.

As to whether the Primarchs are mortal or not, none have died of old age. The Emperor is immortal (well, ageless at least) and the Primarchs were based on his genetic template so it is possible that they cannot die of anything as mundane as old age.

It's unknown if any of the astartes or the primarchs can die of old age, as none have. All astartes that have died are due to combat situations; Dante is only the oldest living by virtue of not biting it or being interred in a dreadnought. And he's 1000 years old, which is a feat because on top of throwing himself into the thick of it for almost all of those years, he also hasn't succombed to the Black Rage (which is actually how most blood angels meet their end).

Most assume they have biological immortality because, unlike the other citizens of the Imperium, Space Marines do not require rejuvenate treatments to live that long and they remain in their primes (with the odd greying hair here and there) rather than start becoming frail, implying that their cells are constantly rejuvenating themselves. Again, it's unknown if a Marine could die of old age; they could possibly live for centuries and simply none of them have reached this threshold yet.

EDIT: Note that Vulkan is special in that he's apparently a Perpetual, which actually does makes him immortal (some versions of the fluff I heard about say that perpetuals will literally pop back into existence even if atomized, but I think it depends on the writer). I don't remember if this was intentional on the Emperor's part or if it was just a freak accident. However being immortal doesn't mean you can't be knocked out and so he gets literally knocked out of the narrative. A lot. If the 9 artifacts of Vulkan are any hints, he might be locked in stasis (again) waiting for someone to find him.

 Sylhfer wrote:
Prior to Robout Guiliman being resurrected.by the merry bunch. The tally of Loyalist Primarchs vs their Chaos tainted brethren seemed to me like most of the Chaos Primarchs survived versus the uncertainty or the death of the loyalists.

Why was the reasoning behind that?

Why not make it equal and not favored towards Chaos?

The IoM has many advantages over Chaos. Size, material, technology(apparently) training, loyalty, bravery, dedication.

Chaos has bigger personalities, strong champions. They aren't unified, but there are a lot of them.

It is balanced overall.

Chaos Primarchs only survived* because they ran to the Eye of Terror like a bunch of guys who run away from battles. Not saying they are cowards but they most certainly aren't made of the sternest stuff.

Loyalist Primarchs actually tried to make a difference around the galaxy, even if they could have been more efficient and coordinated.

*Without being missing or killed in action.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Most assume they have biological immortality because, unlike the other citizens of the Imperium, Space Marines do not require rejuvenate treatments to live that long and they remain in their primes (with the odd greying hair here and there) rather than start becoming frail, implying that their cells are constantly rejuvenating themselves. Again, it's unknown if a Marine could die of old age; they could possibly live for centuries and simply none of them have reached this threshold yet.

EDIT: Note that Vulkan is special in that he's apparently a Perpetual, which actually does makes him immortal (some versions of the fluff I heard about say that perpetuals will literally pop back into existence even if atomized, but I think it depends on the writer).

Space Marines have been noted as becoming slower and more frail as they age. Getting affected by Hrud would also seem to indicate that they are affected by aging.

Probably depends on the Perpetual in question but Vulkan was vaporised by Curze if I recall correctly and returned shortly afterwards.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
It was also stated in the fluff that Dante is one of the oldest living space marine and yet he is two hundred over years old only? We are talking about ten thousand years since the Horus Heresey.

Long lived does not equal immortal.

Besides, it has already been demonstrated that a loyalist primarch can be killed. Some have died already. So, they are certainly not immortal.

Dante is 1200.

Immortal and indestructible are not the same thing. The primarchs are immortal. They do not die from aging. They can be killed.