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Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting. Without a doubt the most prevalent "chapter tactics" in my local area are the -1 to hit farther than 12 inches away. Ravenguard, alpha legion, stygies admech, tyranids with those character bugs that give an aoe -1 to hit, and now eldar craftworld, and likely in the future tau will have similar, mabye even tyranids. I understand melee is the orks real strength, but our shooting units should not be completely worthless this often. No idea what can be done about this.

I mean, you do have access to BS 4+, which is what a lot of armies make do with. If your meta has a lot of - to hit in it, focus on those. Admittedly most of them are a bit overpriced at this moment, but hopefully either chapter approved or the eventual codex will solve that. I've also heard good things about the forgeworld grot/mega grot/kill tanks, so that is a potential solution if you are interested.

 Orock wrote:
No idea what can be done about this.

A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.

Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.

I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.

In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).

I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.

 Orock wrote:
Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting.

We don't have a codex yet, so we are in the unfortunate situation of having to use our index lists against the codex factions. This sucks, but it is no different for Tyranids, Sisters, Necron, Tau and others. They are all struggling with the codex armies.

Until our codex is out I advise you to do what every other Ork player is doing:

1) Bring moar boyz. Best unit in the index and one of the best troop choices in the game. 120 is a bare minimum

2) Bring a little bit of smite-spam. Weirdboyz are good, and smite counters most of the things that boyz struggle with.

3) Play Maelstrom or similar missions where VPs are won progressively throughout the game. End-scoring is boring and disadvantages Orks a LOT.

4) Always advance, focus on the assault, punch out some space marine teeth. Don't try to play shooty orks, unless you are okay with a 3% win-rate.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Orock wrote:
No idea what can be done about this.

A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.

+

Blackie wrote:I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.

Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.

At the moment, Imperial weapons are cheaper, better, but more importantly; put out more shots - period (Looking at you BS2/3/4+ Heavy20 Punisher Cannon (and that's not even with the Grinding Advance rule)/12 shot Assault Cannons). I don't mind their guns/BS being better, but I do mind having less dice [this is the huge one for me [Orks are the "gak-tons of dice" army]] AND being more expensive on top of it.

shortymcnostrill wrote:In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).

I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.

The thing is, Orks aren't particularly bad at shooting - most prefer the way of the Choppa; that, coupled with the fact that they care more about the sound/maximum dakka, and less about actually hitting the target, means they tend to not be represented as accurately. There are entire clans/lifestyles centered around the way of the dakka [hell, this name of this site is based around the word, and the term "Dakka" in general, was coined due to the massive quantities of Ork shooting].

That said, BS5+ is their identity at this point, and it's fair enough, plus differentiates them on the table; a rule I keep seeing pop-up as proposed is "Orks always hit on a 5+" - they don't care about what anyone's doing (evasive maneuvers, hiding, etc), and care more about outputting massive amounts of lead; they keep the generally bad shooting odds, but don't get completely screwed over by -1/-2 to hit modifiers.

Other armies are supposed to be envious of the amount of shots an Ork unit can put out; not the other way around.

Sisters are probably the ones getting nerfed with the codex instead of buffed.

fe40k wrote:
Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.

There's one problem with this though. GW keeps dropping point values, players keep upping game sizes and nobody bothers with upping board size.

End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!

I ran into this issue with trying to use orks in 30k. 30k armies works better with at least 2k, preferably more points. 7th ed orks...well weren't competive. Especially the kind we have. Top of that 30k armies have couple tools orks REALLY hate. In short equal points would be generally uphill. How to fix it? Point reduction or more points for orks and either 30k force needs to be like 1000-1500(not optimal) or we run into issue that it's basically shoulder to shoulder ork stuff with stuff off board as well...

 koooaei wrote:
Sisters are probably the ones getting nerfed with the codex instead of buffed.

This, and when FW is updated, currently IMO sob are in a great spot and GW cant have that.

But to not take away from Orks, their 5++ Invul NEEDS to be a real aura also... i cant believe its per model within 6"

tneva82 wrote:


End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!

That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.

The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.

A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!

That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.

The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.

But if model count increases by say 30% that's lots of models for new players to buy and paint. Sure old guys have no problems but what about new players...GW is more interested in selling new army for new players than few additions to old guys.

As for board...Well you fit it with 2500 pts. Whatabout what amounts to old 3250 pts? How much price drop we are looking orks need? 10%? 30%? 50%? People above mentioned 50%. Imagine fitting 3750 pts army into the board. That's a lot of models.

Then GW drops price of IG, marines etc forcing yet cheaper orks to match.

 Silentz wrote:
A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.

Not if it says for units under X models, gives smaller units a chance to do something.

 Silentz wrote:
A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.

Why not? It is precisely that way Necron Crypteks works.

Not that I care much either way:The present wording of the Kustom Force Field works fine from a balance perspective, it just makes the movement phase very slow and prone to endless measuring.

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!

That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.

The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.

But if model count increases by say 30% that's lots of models for new players to buy and paint. Sure old guys have no problems but what about new players...GW is more interested in selling new army for new players than few additions to old guys.

As for board...Well you fit it with 2500 pts. Whatabout what amounts to old 3250 pts? How much price drop we are looking orks need? 10%? 30%? 50%? People above mentioned 50%. Imagine fitting 3750 pts army into the board. That's a lot of models.

Then GW drops price of IG, marines etc forcing yet cheaper orks to match.

IMHO it should take months if not years to collect a proper army since a new player starts the hobby. Having 2000 points or more in a few days is something that kills the hobby. When I started in 3rd edition I managed to collect 1500 points of orks in more than a year, starting to play after several months of the hobby part. But these days to play with unpainted models is widely accepted so even new players can play after a short period time since they started the hobby. And a new player should go into the 2000 format after lots of games at lower points.

3250 points of boyz is insane, and it's probably too much since some units that are needed like boyz and all the HQs don't need points reductions. But with stuff like vehicles, walkers, etc prices cut by half orks could be competitive, with variety and they will fit the board.

 Silentz wrote:
A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.

But that's exactly how the Kustom Force Field worked for two editions in a row. In the 5th ed Ork codex, the KFF gave a 5+ cover save to units within 6", and vehicles counted as Obscured. So it did exactly that, and was considered perfectly fine and fluffy. I mean hell, if there's one faction who can get away with "Crazy science, don't need to explain how it works", it's Orks.

On topic, I'd love to see a rule like the following for Orks in their codex:

DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
Orks rarely bother to aim, even under the best circumstances, prefering instead to simply blast away in the general direction of the enemy. Though this does mean their shots rarely hit the mark, it also renders them virtually immune to the effects of stealth fields, targetting scramblers or even smoke screens
Ork units in the Shooting Phase ignore all modifiers to their Shooting attacks.

"A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."

This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.

And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.

And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).

The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.

 Nym wrote:
"A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."

This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.

And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.

And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).

The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.

You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?

For me, the fluff behind the low BS has always been that orks simply don't aim. They just pull the trigger nonstop, sometimes even while pointing in the direction of the enemies. So basically every actual hit is a lucky shot.
Gitfinders for me, are just Placebos, since it only works when an ork stands still and actually aims with his gun instead of viciously swinging it around like a beatstick.

So from a fluffy point of view, I would love if orks wouldn't suffer from any negative mod. to their BS since they never really aim at their opponents (or have it cap at 6+ at least), but I don't know what that would do to balancing.

 Nym wrote:


And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets.

We also have Killa Kanz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, the Wazbom Blasta and Grots. And then we have quite a lot of stuff that does not depend on BS at all, like burnas, skorchas, the bombers and the deff kopta bomb.

Most of it is just too expensive and too fragile, because we lack a codex, not because we need core rule changes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?

As far as I know, only Alaitoc Rangers and Pathfinder can get -3 to hit. But I could be wrong.

Still, even -2 (Hemlock or Rangers without Conceal) is plain stupid since it basically negates Ork shooting entirely. When you throw thousands of bullets / bombs in one direction, you're *bound* to hit something. Hence my proposition of "a 6 to hit is always a success".

pismakron wrote:
We also have Killa Kanz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, the Wazbom Blasta and Grots.

Sorry, I should have said that I was only talking about Ork shooting, not Gretchins.

With that said, even Gretchins or GEQ units right now can have their shooting totally negated by a -3 to-hit modifier. This should not be allowed by the core rules.

 Nym wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?

As far as I know, only Alaitoc Rangers and Pathfinder can get -3 to hit. But I could be wrong.

They have a -1 to hit already if they advance (its there basic rule) they can also get an Upgrade to give them another -1 to hit, they could get a -2 to hit already before in the Index, now they can get another -1.

But honestly they are shooting 2 Shuriken cannons (the other weapons are Heavy's) after they advance, its average 1 wound a turn, its not like they are very strong.

 Nym wrote:
"A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."

This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.

And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.

And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).

The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.

I think an Ork always hitting on a 6 makes sense, due to the mass number of shots they'll aim at any target

I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).

 Huron black heart wrote:

 Nym wrote:
"A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."

This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.

And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.

And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).

The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.

I think an Ork always hitting on a 6 makes sense, due to the mass number of shots they'll aim at any target

That used to be the rule for any roll in WH (6 always succeeded, 1 always failed) although, sometimes you needed a 2nd roll on top of that to truly succeed. (First a 6+, followed by a 4 or 5+)

Don't know why they got rid of that.

Orks should have a special rule that their Ballistic Skill (except Overwatch) can never be improved above or below a 5+! They always hit on 5+'s because of the shear amount of lead they put up into the sky

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).

this, or orks, or everyone always hits on a 6. I like your fluffy rule though, spray and pray

 takonite wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).

this, or orks, or everyone always hits on a 6. I like your fluffy rule though, spray and pray

I vote for this and 6s are always hits, for all armies.