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So been thinking of my last unit of Hellblasters, my first 2 use the Rapid Fire weapons

I think my third unit should use an alternative, either the assault or Heavy version. I am having some trouble deciding which one to use.

So some army details:

Contents are basically the Primaris from 2 boxes of Dark Imperium. Some were converted into a (Primariis) Captain, Librarian, & Apothecary. Also the contents of a Tooth and claw. I will have one unit of Intercessors with the Heavy and the Assault versions (4 Rapid Fire) and one unit of Inceptors with Plasma.

I have a small Guard contingency (about 500 points). And while I change my chapter semi regularly, right now I am leaning towards Deathwatch.

Any suggestions on what type of Hellblasters, and why

If you go deathwatch, that changes things a bit. The ability to stick an aggressor in lets you be more mobile.

The 1 shot for the heavy is a dealbreaker IMHO. You pay a lot of points for that single shot, and it’s not that much better then the rapid fire one.

The assault has more potential. The lower S hurts your AV potential, but you should still be mulching infantry and light vehicles. The loss of S 8 is kinda bad, as that’s a breakpoint that lets you 2/3/4+ T 4/7/8. But if you are running them without re-rolls, you might not be overchargeing anyway. You don’t want to take advantage of the assault rule with overcharge anyway; good way to bake yourself. Unless you are in a deathwatch kill team with an aggressor.

If, and only if, you are running pure primaris and desperately needed more AV would I consider the heavy. The ability to hit S9 can be nice for taking down big tough things. But you would still probably be better served with other platforms (dread, repulsor). You just pay a lot of points for not that many shots of a platform that’s going away under moderate firepower.

I think the assault version has more potential. Still fragile, but can project a reasonable amount of firepower at range.

Rapid fire is still the best, IMHO. But if I was building a 3rd squad, i'd go with assault. YMMV.

Just getting into Primaris, and found out not all the plasma guns are the same, how do I tell one from the other because it no longer is obviously dependant on size. I was looking for the heavy plasma gun variant of the plasma incinerator on the hellblaster sprues and didn't see one.

What plasma do I get with the Dark Imperium Hellblaster models?

 Orlanth wrote:
Just getting into Primaris, and found out not all the plasma guns are the same, how do I tell one from the other because it no longer is obviously dependant on size. I was looking for the heavy plasma gun variant of the plasma incinerator on the hellblaster sprues and didn't see one.

What plasma do I get with the Dark Imperium Hellblaster models?

I just have the DI ones personally, but from what I’ve read from people who have the full kit.

Assault ones have a little widget under the barrel.
Rapid fire are the basic ones in the DI box
Heavy are the ones with the cable to the pack

You should take assault versión on your 3rd squad. Just to give the unit the option to move and shoot if you need some support at some place.

Looking at the bits images on the GW store it seem you only have the rapid fire version of the plasmas.

The differences seem pretty minimal tbh. Provided there were some way of obviously telling them apart I'd have no problem with playing against someone using the dark imperium ones as heavy or assault versions.

Particularly as the dark imperium ones are so much cheaper!

 DoomMouse wrote:
The differences seem pretty minimal tbh. Provided there were some way of obviously telling them apart I'd have no problem with playing against someone using the dark imperium ones as heavy or assault versions.

Particularly as the dark imperium ones are so much cheaper!

Now I know its just a cable to a battery build onto the backpack converting some up should be easy enough.

 Nevelon wrote:
Assault ones have a little widget under the barrel.
Rapid fire are the basic ones in the DI box
Heavy are the ones with the cable to the pack

Assault plasma incinerators have the rectangular targeting array attached to the top grab handle. Like this:



You're correct for the other two types.

Alex_85 wrote:
You should take assault versión on your 3rd squad. Just to give the unit the option to move and shoot if you need some support at some place.

Looking at the bits images on the GW store it seem you only have the rapid fire version of the plasmas.

Personally I don't agree the Assault ones have enough of an advantage over Rapid Fire even here.

Rapid Fire can still move and shoot without penalty, it's only advancing that the Assault ones let you do, and if you Advance that effectively means you can't overcharge (or you have to be super desperate!).

Assault ones are more expensive too. Sure the double tap range is better, but that is crippled by the -1 strength compared to the Rapid Fire ones.

That -1 strength is a real problem, as it means you have to Overcharge to threaten many targets at all, and as discussed above that Overcharging means you basically never want to run.

I don't really think there's a compelling case to ever take them in all honesty, it's Rapid Fire all the way!

Sad but true. Primaris do not have many options and most of the options that exists are not worth using. Good thing is that the best weapons come on cheap DI marines. A bit of marketing fail if you ask me...

 Crimson wrote:
Sad but true. Primaris do not have many options and most of the options that exists are not worth using. Good thing is that the best weapons come on cheap DI marines. A bit of marketing fail if you ask me...

Yeah, it's nice being able to get the best loadout for about £10 a squad eBay for sure!

The heavy have a bit more of a niche. S8 without overcharge is very nice, as is the extra range. They're certainly more viable than the Assault ones, but then I think I'd also rather just take Lascannon Devs instead at that point!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the Heavy ones look awesome. Basically Primaris Ghostbusters haha

For the dark imperiumnones, you can pick up the heavy backpack.extenders on eBay for pretty cheap. You might need to fiddle with the cables a bit to make them fit though.

Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Sad but true. Primaris do not have many options and most of the options that exists are not worth using. Good thing is that the best weapons come on cheap DI marines. A bit of marketing fail if you ask me...

Yeah, it's nice being able to get the best loadout for about £10 a squad eBay for sure!

The heavy have a bit more of a niche. S8 without overcharge is very nice, as is the extra range. They're certainly more viable than the Assault ones, but then I think I'd also rather just take Lascannon Devs instead at that point!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the Heavy ones look awesome. Basically Primaris Ghostbusters haha

Doing all Primaris, so no Devs...

I will probably model them with some Anvil Industries heavy Plasma's instead..

What does heavy plasma get me, I am feeling the lack of true heavy weapons squads in Primaris.

I am wondering if I can 'regularise' my Primaris by converting up four heavy plasma and give the sergeant one rapid fire to be held one handed while he points.

As a visual I am thinking about making the plasma longer having them held under the wrist with the supporting arm off to one side, as a proper heavy weapon. With cabling if I can get the bitz.

For me theme is what matters most, I am happy to be unoptimised, but I dont want my unit to suck. Will heavy plasma cost me more, how much more and will it wreck my unit as a supporting role.
I will have plenty of Intercessors to back them up. In theme terms I am looking to make combi-weapons for one man per squad with an IG grenade launcher, again to give them the feel of being morel like regular marines.

the rpbolem with the heavy plasma guns is they're STILL 1 damage, 2 on an over charge. if they where say... 2 damage, with 3 on an over charge with the same STR are the standard incinerator, they'd be a MUCH MUCH better choice

 Orlanth wrote:
What does heavy plasma get me, I am feeling the lack of true heavy weapons squads in Primaris.

I am wondering if I can 'regularise' my Primaris by converting up four heavy plasma and give the sergeant one rapid fire to be held one handed while he points.

As a visual I am thinking about making the plasma longer having them held under the wrist with the supporting arm off to one side, as a proper heavy weapon. With cabling if I can get the bitz.

For me theme is what matters most, I am happy to be unoptimised, but I dont want my unit to suck. Will heavy plasma cost me more, how much more and will it wreck my unit as a supporting role.
I will have plenty of Intercessors to back them up. In theme terms I am looking to make combi-weapons for one man per squad with an IG grenade launcher, again to give them the feel of being morel like regular marines.

As I said above, Heavy is ok ish, but still not great.

As the poster above said, it's still only 1/2 damage. The jump from 6/7 strength to 7/8 between assault and rapid fire is really significant, but I feel going from 7/8 to 8/9 is much less so generally too.

The biggest problem is the Heavy rule itself, meaning you basically never want to move your guys. The Rapid Fire ones are so much more mobile, and when you combine that with their double shots in 15" they really are the obvious choice.

If you need heavier weaponry in a Primaris army, I'd say go for Predators or Laserbacks rather than infantry.

Also if you're playing raven guard you can use the rapid fire weapons to maneuver your opponent. If you walk into rapid fire range you force them to step forward at least 3" or take a -1 to hit. This can also draw them into attempting a charge, they move 6" then try to charge you get to overwatch while they only have ~30% chance of making the charge without rerolls or ~50% with rerolls. If they fall for it you can then just backpedal and lead them around the board, if they don't you get to just sit there rapid firing into their face. The heavy version disincentivises this by penalising you for moving and giving no benefit for being closer. The assault version disincentivises it by having full shots at a longer range so it's safer to just sit further back, especially with the lower strength of the assault gun making it less likely to wound.

This is more likely to work to your advantage in casual games. But the more options you present your opponent in game the more likely it is they'll make a mistake and at the end of the day in a tournament your opponent is probably going to be tired and more likely to choose poorly.

Rapid fire seems the sweet spot, are they more expensive?
Also do range brackets change

I know these are basic questions but I would like to plan my army theme in advance and it may be a long time before the magazine subscription provides me with this info.

 Orlanth wrote:
Rapid fire seems the sweet spot, are they more expensive?
Also do range brackets change

I know these are basic questions but I would like to plan my army theme in advance and it may be a long time before the magazine subscription provides me with this info.

They're actually the cheapest! Weird right?

Heavy are 36"
Rapid are 30" (two shots within 15")
Assault are 24" (always two shots)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IronBrand wrote:
Also if you're playing raven guard you can use the rapid fire weapons to maneuver your opponent. If you walk into rapid fire range you force them to step forward at least 3" or take a -1 to hit. This can also draw them into attempting a charge, they move 6" then try to charge you get to overwatch while they only have ~30% chance of making the charge without rerolls or ~50% with rerolls. If they fall for it you can then just backpedal and lead them around the board, if they don't you get to just sit there rapid firing into their face. The heavy version disincentivises this by penalising you for moving and giving no benefit for being closer. The assault version disincentivises it by having full shots at a longer range so it's safer to just sit further back, especially with the lower strength of the assault gun making it less likely to wound.

This is more likely to work to your advantage in casual games. But the more options you present your opponent in game the more likely it is they'll make a mistake and at the end of the day in a tournament your opponent is probably going to be tired and more likely to choose poorly.

Talking about Raven Guard, it's worth noting that if you deployment using strike from the shadows that gets you well within Rapid Fire range, making them a prime target for this strat in a Primaris army!

Aggressors are also fantastic for infiltrating with Raven Guard though.

As always, the Raven Guard strat is absolutely amazing IF you get first turn. It's merely ok if you go second. So it's a bit of a gamble.

Stux wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Rapid fire seems the sweet spot, are they more expensive?
Also do range brackets change

I know these are basic questions but I would like to plan my army theme in advance and it may be a long time before the magazine subscription provides me with this info.

They're actually the cheapest! Weird right?

Heavy are 36"
Rapid are 30" (two shots within 15")
Assault are 24" (always two shots)

With S8 to 7 to 6 for that range bracket system, with number of shots, heavy is clearly the inferior choice. I think Rapid fire is likely the best. Nevertheless is the price drop is usable I might make my Hellblasters heavy. I feel more confortable with devastators than sternguard.

Stux wrote:
Talking about Raven Guard, it's worth noting that if you deployment using strike from the shadows that gets you well within Rapid Fire range, making them a prime target for this strat in a Primaris army!

Aggressors are also fantastic for infiltrating with Raven Guard though.

As always, the Raven Guard strat is absolutely amazing IF you get first turn. It's merely ok if you go second. So it's a bit of a gamble.

It's worth noting that you don't set them up until the start of the first turn with strike from the shadows. So after rolling to see who goes first and seize the initiative. So if you use the stratagem but get second turn and can't set them up out of LoS you can still just put them in your deployment zone like normal. That way you've only wasted 1CP instead of thrown a unit away before the game begins. Also keep in mind to set them up at least 12-15" away instead of just over 9" away so your opponent gets the -1 to hit or is forced to move, unless you're planning to charge them.

 IronBrand wrote:

Stux wrote:
Talking about Raven Guard, it's worth noting that if you deployment using strike from the shadows that gets you well within Rapid Fire range, making them a prime target for this strat in a Primaris army!

Aggressors are also fantastic for infiltrating with Raven Guard though.

As always, the Raven Guard strat is absolutely amazing IF you get first turn. It's merely ok if you go second. So it's a bit of a gamble.

It's worth noting that you don't set them up until the start of the first turn with strike from the shadows. So after rolling to see who goes first and seize the initiative. So if you use the stratagem but get second turn and can't set them up out of LoS you can still just put them in your deployment zone like normal. That way you've only wasted 1CP instead of thrown a unit away before the game begins. Also keep in mind to set them up at least 12-15" away instead of just over 9" away so your opponent gets the -1 to hit or is forced to move, unless you're planning to charge them.

Yes, you do know the result of the roll for first turn, which is very important. So you can try and hide your guys if you go second.

It's also important to note for some abilities (eg Auspex Scan) that it's not technically at the start of the first turn, it's at the start of the first battle round. Sounds pedantic, but it really does matter because it's this fact that means they aren't counted as reinforcements.

Stux wrote:
Yes, you do know the result of the roll for first turn, which is very important. So you can try and hide your guys if you go second.

It's also important to note for some abilities (eg Auspex Scan) that it's not technically at the start of the first turn, it's at the start of the first battle round. Sounds pedantic, but it really does matter because it's this fact that means they aren't counted as reinforcements.

I wouldn't consider that pedantic, it's important to know how rules and stratagems interact so you can play the game properly. Especially in a thread discussing the merits and strategies for using a unit.

Which chapter do you play?
Because the assault and heavy variants are great with Dark Angels, since they have a strat for +1 damage on plasma weapons. Overcharged S9 3 damage is absolute boss, even if it is only 10 shots, also you get rerolls of 1 when you do not move. So the need for a nearby captain is greatly reduced.
The natural assault profile also becomes a lot more interesting with that strat. S6 -4 ap and 2 damage kills off most of the heavy infantry in the game.

I was thinking of Crimson Fists. And I am thinking making a 100% Primaris force.

All non Primaris models in the magazine issues will be added to my older vanilla chapter. I dont want to add the Primaris.

I have no clue so far of whgat that gets me, and I wasnt aware of differences until now, been out of 40K a long time and am coming back for the Primaris and Death Guard armies and exploring them as I go.

I will be looking to spam extra vehicles and select units as I come across them.

 Arlen wrote:
Which chapter do you play?
Because the assault and heavy variants are great with Dark Angels, since they have a strat for +1 damage on plasma weapons. Overcharged S9 3 damage is absolute boss, even if it is only 10 shots, also you get rerolls of 1 when you do not move. So the need for a nearby captain is greatly reduced.
The natural assault profile also becomes a lot more interesting with that strat. S6 -4 ap and 2 damage kills off most of the heavy infantry in the game.

As a Dark Angels main, personally I don't find the strat to make the other variants attractive enough for two reasons:

1.
The strat also applies to the Rapid Fire guys, so they're all lifted up by it.

2.
You only have so many command points, so you aren't going to be spamming it constantly. Plus you can only use it once per round. Personally, I tend to save it for my Plasma Inceptors, so they can appear out of nowhere and do some insane damage!

Admittedly the re-roll 1s when stationary DOES benefit Heavy incinerators more than the other variants, but for me it still doesn't quite beat Rapid Fire.

If you are gonna play Deathwatch and do a mixed Squad any of the Variants will work, with Heavy and Assault Pairing best with Aggressors in the Squad.

I think a lot of people that poo-poo on the assault variant are merely giving in to theoryhammer. I've used it a number of times (also playing as RG here, btw) and I actually love it. Obviously, you don't assault with it and overcharge it. But the assault option basically gives it the same single shot results/range as rapid fire, and it can double tap at 24 instead of 15, which RG love. The lower strength hurts, sure, but the fact of the matter is that NONE of the hellblaster guns are AT weapons, and if you are using/relying on them as such you are asking them to do more than they are capable of.

Rocmistro wrote:
I think a lot of people that poo-poo on the assault variant are merely giving in to theoryhammer. I've used it a number of times (also playing as RG here, btw) and I actually love it. Obviously, you don't assault with it and overcharge it. But the assault option basically gives it the same single shot results/range as rapid fire, and it can double tap at 24 instead of 15, which RG love. The lower strength hurts, sure, but the fact of the matter is that NONE of the hellblaster guns are AT weapons, and if you are using/relying on them as such you are asking them to do more than they are capable of.

It's not that it's anti-tank, it's that you are wounding on 2s Vs many multiwound elite infantry units, which the Assault version can never do.

Also the Assault ones struggle to threaten Dreadnoughts and light vehicles, which Rapid Fire can chew through.

Looking at the new wound table S8 without overheat looks nasty.
It gets bonus against T4, T7 and T8 over S7.

As Primaris lack heavy weapons I am wondering if heavy plasma is a good way to go for pure Primaris armies.