Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all since chapter approved has launched I’ve heard a lot of people talk about what changes chapter approved will have on their army, but not as much on what impact it will have on the game at large. With that in mind this list will focus on competive 40k, so while I think there are plenty of changes that will have a larger impact on individual units and armies than the ones mentioned here, I think these are the ones that will influence the game as a whole the most. Additionally, since this is speculation, I fully expect to wrong on some of these. Finally, as someone who lives in the U.S., I will ignore stuff like new missions, since I am 99% sure ITC won’t adopt these missions and that is the format which matters here. I don’t care if you agree or disagree with this, it’s the reality of the situation. With those caveats out of the way I’ll start from most to least impactful changes.

1) Chaos cultist: up 1 point (4 to 5)
To the surprise of no one, this change has to be ranked number 1 on the list. It’s no secret that cultist spam was a very popular competive strategy, and I think this change effectively kills this strategy. Very few competitive armies will remain very efficient with 150is point increase, and that’s what this change will cause for cultist spam list. This is made even worse because of the many drops chapter approved had in other areas (see below). While I think chaos armies will still problably run some cultist units, the days of spam is over.

2) Wrath of khorne bloodthirster: down 100 points (340 to 240)
I can already here you saying I’m nuts for including this change so highly, but hear me out. As the GD with largest point drop. It’s no secret that before chapter approved bloodthirsters where very overcosted, but they did hit very hard as well. Problem was in a Knignts meta you could Ill afford to have your 340 point monster get easily wiped turn 1. With 100 point drop however that changes. Especially because these guys are easily spammed, so that it’s much more likely that one of your thirsters is making it to combat. Believe me when I say that is very likely a dead anything if he does.

3) crisis suits: down 45 points (121-81)
So crisis suits weren’t quite as bad before as people believed. This is a huge point drop on a unit that’s only real flaw was being overcosted. Now they are very strong especially with savior protocol. Expect more Tau to be ruining your tables shortly.

4) Swarmlord: down 50 points (300-250)
This is the first special character I’ll mention which took a large decrease. Honestly a no brainer for this list, swarlord was already a very competitive choice for nids. I think this change as a whole will make nids (an already competitive faction) even more so. Especially when you consider all the other decreases the army saw.

5) IG tank commanders: down 25 points (167 -142)
So this doesn’t even include some of points drops that tank commander weapons got. Another competitive unit that for some reason got cheaper, you should expect 3 tank commanders anytime you face an IG list. IG tank list are going to just that much better.

6) deamonettes: down 1 point (7-6)
Now only costing 1 more than cultist, de are very likely to be better choice now. With a higher speed of 7 inches of movement, a 5++, and plenty of rending attacks, deamonettes are now chaff that is good at removing chaff. If you still need a heavy hitting close combat troop, than bloodletters are still the way to go, but 1 less point makes a big difference for the netts

7)tech-priest enginseer: down 17 points (47 - 30)
So I’m dubious they admech as a whole will be very competitive (as they where debatablely worse than GK before chapter approved was released). AD mech as a CP battalion for knights might be really good. This is because they have a couple of synergies with knights (knight of the cog, enginseer healing). Still ibefore it was harder to justify that over the loyal 32. Now that the detachment is cheaper, we might see it being picked over the loyal 32.
8. scout snipers down 3 points (maybe)
So recently we’ve seen the rise of snipers with Rowboat as a list which handles characters very well. I think those lists will become even more popular with this change.

9)wave serpent up 13 points
So this a pretty small increase in the grand scheme of things, but on a unit where it matters. I think we’ll still see plenty of craftworld lists with wave serpents at top tables, but they’ll cost more.

10. Trajann Valoris: down 65 points (250-185)
So custodies might not be the best army right now, but they are almost there.The captain general was already close to being a competitive, now that he’s cheaper he for sure will be. If knights become less popular, we might see a custodies resurgence led by Valoris.

Ok so that’s my list. Thought? Just how wrong am I?

Salt donkey wrote:


1) Chaos cultist: up 1 point (4 to 5)
To the surprise of no one, this change has to be ranked number 1 on the list. It’s no secret that cultist spam was a very popular competive strategy, and I think this change effectively kills this strategy. Very few competitive armies will remain very efficient with 150is point increase, and that’s what this change will cause for cultist spam list. This is made even worse because of the many drops chapter approved had in other areas (see below). While I think chaos armies will still problably run some cultist units, the days of spam is over.

IMO if a cultist squad of 40 gets a significant Tide of Traitor regen, then they make up for it in the points increase. 39 cultist in old point is 156 points already. The only change is they were getting this free previously and now its frontloaded into their base cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:


5) IG tank commanders: down 25 points (167 -142)
So this doesn’t even include some of points drops that tank commander weapons got. Another competitive unit that for some reason got cheaper, you should expect 3 tank commanders anytime you face an IG list. IG tank list are going to just that much better.

The reason is to put them in line to cost the same as a Armiger Helverin. Both are now 172 points. T8 3+ vs T7 3+/5++. LRTC also trades mobility for extra firepower potential.

 Smirrors wrote:
The reason is to put them in line to cost the same as a Armiger Helverin. Both are now 172 points. T8 3+ vs T7 3+/5++. LRTC also trades mobility for extra firepower potential.

And for some crazy bizzare reason normal leman russes were left untouched making them pretty much pointless until rule of 3 kicks in. 20 pts for improved BS and orders is steal.

tneva82 wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
The reason is to put them in line to cost the same as a Armiger Helverin. Both are now 172 points. T8 3+ vs T7 3+/5++. LRTC also trades mobility for extra firepower potential.

And for some crazy bizzare reason normal leman russes were left untouched making them pretty much pointless until rule of 3 kicks in. 20 pts for improved BS and orders is steal.

Quite unless you want an actual armoured company the first three will be HQ ones, the only constraint being if you already have no spare Heavy Support slots, which is unlikely

Cultists going up 1ppm does NOT kill Cultist spam even a little. What it does, is make you drop about 10-15 total Cultists from your list, tops.
But as long as Cultists are the only viable Troop in a CSM list (because Marines are too expensive and DIDN'T get a decrease) in an edition in which you NEED bodies on the table, then CSM lists will continue to spam Cultists.

Cultists could be 6-7ppm and this would be true. Although at that rate, CSM palyer would just take the minimum 3x10 for a Battalion and fill the rest with non-Troops. It may also remove CSM for ever placing in events that have heavy objective-based mission

-

You forgot Storm Shields being 2 points for Deathwatch Vets.

It's so absurd I think it's a typo.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You forgot Storm Shields being 2 points for Deathwatch Vets.

It's so absurd I think it's a typo.

But at least it's a power armoured troop choice, so seeing more of those is a good thing!

Salt donkey wrote:
3) crisis suits: down 45 points (121-81)
So crisis suits weren’t quite as bad before as people believed. This is a huge point drop on a unit that’s only real flaw was being overcosted. Now they are very strong especially with savior protocol. Expect more Tau to be ruining your tables shortly.

7)tech-priest enginseer: down 17 points (47 - 30)
So I’m dubious they admech as a whole will be very competitive (as they where debatablely worse than GK before chapter approved was released). AD mech as a CP battalion for knights might be really good. This is because they have a couple of synergies with knights (knight of the cog, enginseer healing). Still ibefore it was harder to justify that over the loyal 32. Now that the detachment is cheaper, we might see it being picked over the loyal 32.

On 3. No. Crisis were eyewateringly bad before. Unfortunately in any competitive sense they remain so. If a unit is a combination of damage, resilience and movement, crisis just fall short in every category.
If you take them with 3 ions and cover them in drones and your opponent can't kill drones for some reason then I guess they will be okay.

On 7... the idea that Ad Mech were worse than GK is... no.
But I agree Ad Mech are significantly better. Be interesting to see if people mess around and find that ad mech+knights gives guard+knights a run for its money.
I'm doubting it - but who knows. Certainly in a more casual setting its going to do alright.

Edit: Yeah I don't know why I thought that would work. Ignore me.

Spawn - down 7 to 25 - I was already ready to bring these to the table. 125 points for 20 T5 wounds with respectable combat abilities that can't be ignored. Combine them with the TS stratagem and spells and I think you have a big winner.

And even if you don't want to take 5 of them a single spawn costs the same as 5 cultists and is way more difficult to get off an objective.

 bullyboy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You forgot Storm Shields being 2 points for Deathwatch Vets.

It's so absurd I think it's a typo.

But at least it's a power armoured troop choice, so seeing more of those is a good thing!

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
3) crisis suits: down 45 points (121-81)
So crisis suits weren’t quite as bad before as people believed. This is a huge point drop on a unit that’s only real flaw was being overcosted. Now they are very strong especially with savior protocol. Expect more Tau to be ruining your tables shortly.

7)tech-priest enginseer: down 17 points (47 - 30)
So I’m dubious they admech as a whole will be very competitive (as they where debatablely worse than GK before chapter approved was released). AD mech as a CP battalion for knights might be really good. This is because they have a couple of synergies with knights (knight of the cog, enginseer healing). Still ibefore it was harder to justify that over the loyal 32. Now that the detachment is cheaper, we might see it being picked over the loyal 32.

On 3. No. Crisis were eyewateringly bad before. Unfortunately in any competitive sense they remain so. If a unit is a combination of damage, resilience and movement, crisis just fall short in every category.
If you take them with 3 ions and cover them in drones and your opponent can't kill drones for some reason then I guess they will be okay.

On 7... the idea that Ad Mech were worse than GK is... no.
But I agree Ad Mech are significantly better. Be interesting to see if people mess around and find that ad mech+knights gives guard+knights a run for its money.
I'm doubting it - but who knows. Certainly in a more casual setting its going to do alright.

Crisis suits are good now. There are some builds that are pretty dang good.

To be honest is not the same a 3++ in a ... what? 17-19 point model with 1 wound and T4 than in a fething Castellan or a bunch of T6 intargeteable Characters with 16" movement, fly and 8 wounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.

When is the last time you saw a unit with storm shields?

Sounds great right up until they get smote. Especially on a unit that wants to get into melee. And lasguns really don't care that those marines are getting the same save they were before.

Every day people's arguments become more and more of a joke.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.

When is the last time you saw a unit with storm shields?

Sounds great right up until they get smote. Especially on a unit that wants to get into melee. And lasguns really don't care that those marines are getting the same save they were before.

Every day people's arguments become more and more of a joke.

Deathwatch were already susceptible to Smite and small arms fire. What you don't grasp is how much more durable the squad becomes overall though.

It used to be that the 5 point price tag meant you just took 1 or 2, that's 5-10 points. Now you can get double that amount.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.

When is the last time you saw a unit with storm shields?

Sounds great right up until they get smote. Especially on a unit that wants to get into melee. And lasguns really don't care that those marines are getting the same save they were before.

Every day people's arguments become more and more of a joke.

Deathwatch were already susceptible to Smite and small arms fire. What you don't grasp is how much more durable the squad becomes overall though.

It used to be that the 5 point price tag meant you just took 1 or 2, that's 5-10 points. Now you can get double that amount.

That's kind of the point. When's the last time you saw a squad with storm shield at a tournament? When's the last time you just marines with jump packs?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spawn - down 7 to 25 - I was already ready to bring these to the table. 125 points for 20 T5 wounds with respectable combat abilities that can't be ignored. Combine them with the TS stratagem and spells and I think you have a big winner.

And even if you don't want to take 5 of them a single spawn costs the same as 5 cultists and is way more difficult to get off an objective.

All Chaos Spawn, or just one faction?
I'd love to run an R&H list with Rogue Psykers and a flood of Spawn...if only I could get all the cool Spawn related things from the other codexes...

 Blndmage wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spawn - down 7 to 25 - I was already ready to bring these to the table. 125 points for 20 T5 wounds with respectable combat abilities that can't be ignored. Combine them with the TS stratagem and spells and I think you have a big winner.

And even if you don't want to take 5 of them a single spawn costs the same as 5 cultists and is way more difficult to get off an objective.

All Chaos Spawn, or just one faction?
I'd love to run an R&H list with Rogue Psykers and a flood of Spawn...if only I could get all the cool Spawn related things from the other codexes...

Mostly TS though CSM have warp time and a 5++ to hand out. They'll still do well as objective holders in other books.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.

When is the last time you saw a unit with storm shields?

Sounds great right up until they get smote. Especially on a unit that wants to get into melee. And lasguns really don't care that those marines are getting the same save they were before.

Every day people's arguments become more and more of a joke.

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

If marines start absolutely dominating tournaments, because they're saving 90 points on maxed VV storm shields then i'll eat my hat.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

If marines start absolutely dominating tournaments, because they're saving 90 points on maxed VV storm shields then i'll eat my hat.

Think beyond Vanguard for a split moment and maybe you'll understand why 2 point Storm Shields are probably the dumbest idea GW had since Gladius.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry I don't think anyone wants to see MORE 3++ saves in the game. ESP when it costs the player 2 fething points. Everyday this game becomes more and more of a joke.

When is the last time you saw a unit with storm shields?

Sounds great right up until they get smote. Especially on a unit that wants to get into melee. And lasguns really don't care that those marines are getting the same save they were before.

Every day people's arguments become more and more of a joke.

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

Until I see it dominating, I really don't care
if you're worried about 2pt stormshields (on what exactly?) I think you have more problems

 Xenomancers wrote:
...I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

...I mean, even with a 3++ 18pts (Deathwatch Veteran, storm shield + chainsword) is still really expensive for a single-wound model. It's less silly than trying to justify spending 21pts on a single-wound model back when Veterans paid 5pts/storm shield, but it doesn't make them good by any stretch of the imagination.

(Addendum: In a world where it costs 15pts to give a five-wound model a 3++ how much should giving a single wound a 3++ cost? (If you said "3pts" congratulations on your mastery of basic division.))

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

If marines start absolutely dominating tournaments, because they're saving 90 points on maxed VV storm shields then i'll eat my hat.

Deal.

!remindme 180 days

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

If marines start absolutely dominating tournaments, because they're saving 90 points on maxed VV storm shields then i'll eat my hat.

Deal.

!remindme 180 days

I'll warn you that I only buy very tasty hats.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
...I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

...I mean, even with a 3++ 18pts (Deathwatch Veteran, storm shield + chainsword) is still really expensive for a single-wound model. It's less silly than trying to justify spending 21pts on a single-wound model back when Veterans paid 5pts/storm shield, but it doesn't make them good by any stretch of the imagination.

(Addendum: In a world where it costs 15pts to give a five-wound model a 3++ how much should giving a single wound a 3++ cost? (If you said "3pts" congratulations on your mastery of basic division.))

Character stormshields went down to 10pts, so yes, a 5W model is paying the same. Works for me.

And besides, people will take stormbolters/stormshields on the DW vets so it will be a 20pt model

 bullyboy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
...I see you are in favor of 2 point storm sheilds...Bravo.

...I mean, even with a 3++ 18pts (Deathwatch Veteran, storm shield + chainsword) is still really expensive for a single-wound model. It's less silly than trying to justify spending 21pts on a single-wound model back when Veterans paid 5pts/storm shield, but it doesn't make them good by any stretch of the imagination.

(Addendum: In a world where it costs 15pts to give a five-wound model a 3++ how much should giving a single wound a 3++ cost? (If you said "3pts" congratulations on your mastery of basic division.))

Character stormshields went down to 10pts, so yes, a 5W model is paying the same. Works for me.

And besides, people will take stormbolters/stormshields on the DW vets so it will be a 20pt model

What else went down? I haven't seen Chapter Approved entries for Deathwatch Veterans or storm bolters, Codex prices it'd be a 22pt model with a 2pt storm shield. (Addendum: Strike that, found the Veteran cost update.)

And you won't take a stormbolter/stormshield because a stormbolter Veteran squad is a suicide unit that uses the Teleportarium or a transport to get one round of shooting off before someone removes it from the table. An Invulnerable save doesn't correct the fundamental problem of trying to play expensive single-wound models in the edition of "*rolls 150 dice* Now on to the next squad." You'll take them with stormbolter/chainsword so you can get that level of firepower for 18pts/model instead of paying an extra 2pts a model to not help them not die.

Pure AdMech wasn't worse than Grey Knights, hold this heresy. With CA, the reduction on Enginseers is just a piece of it. We got cheaper Ballistarii, arquebuses went from 25 to 15 (start thinking about the safety of your characters), plasma on infantry is cheaper, as well as the alreadygood Onagers, then there's Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dominus and Servitors who got discounts.

And then with Vigilus things get really good because Kataphrons, having received a healthy discount, too, get a really good Detachment and have climbed from "barely used" to "highly dangerous" when thought right. Kastelans got cheaper Fists and flamers too, and with their specialist detachment they got really interesting, less so than Kataphrons but still. Every AdMech list got around 300 pts cheaper and more dangerous, expect to see positive results in future events.

I’ll adress a few commen points

1) I didn’t say cultist would see no play, just that spam is dead. To put it in perspective people where frequently running 150 dudes in an army. For that same cost (600 points) now you get 120 cultist. You’re deluded if you think a loss of 30 guys isn’t a big deal.

2) crisis suits where absolutely overcsoted before, but could be reasonably effective if you knew how to play them. Now with a decrease they’re pretty strong.

3) I think 2 point storm shields will help deathwatch, I’m just not sure a list that spam storm shields will be top tier. I’d put this change in my top 25 changes, just not my top 10.

4) So I’ve played both ad mech and Greg knights plenty before chapter approved. Both armies where piloted by experienced players, and there where many games where I struggled more with the grey knights than I did ad mech. Outside of electro preist (which got nerfed to oblivion with the faq) dragoon, and drill spam, ad meh had basically nothing pre chapter approved. The cawl-Dakka bot combo was very much overrated (costing a lot of points and CP), and their Troops and Hq’s where quite bad. Dunecrawlers where worse than any comparably tanks, and their is a heap of garbage units in that dex. At least Grey knights have 2+++ grand masters and some ok units. Also grey knights had something in all phases of
The game, Ad mech has basically nothing for physic phase. I’m not saying grey knights where even close to good, but I think you guys are underestimating how terrible ad mech where.

 Galef wrote:
Cultists going up 1ppm does NOT kill Cultist spam even a little. What it does, is make you drop about 10-15 total Cultists from your list, tops.

-

150 cultists. You need to save 150 pts. That's 30 cultists. Almost full squad.

That's big difference. Raising stuff 25% tends to have big effects.

 Aaranis wrote:
Pure AdMech wasn't worse than Grey Knights, hold this heresy. With CA, the reduction on Enginseers is just a piece of it. We got cheaper Ballistarii, arquebuses went from 25 to 15 (start thinking about the safety of your characters), plasma on infantry is cheaper, as well as the alreadygood Onagers, then there's Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dominus and Servitors who got discounts.

And then with Vigilus things get really good because Kataphrons, having received a healthy discount, too, get a really good Detachment and have climbed from "barely used" to "highly dangerous" when thought right. Kastelans got cheaper Fists and flamers too, and with their specialist detachment they got really interesting, less so than Kataphrons but still. Every AdMech list got around 300 pts cheaper and more dangerous, expect to see positive results in future events.

This, I would at bare minimum replace the enginseer in OP's list with the kataphrons destroyers. With the right FW they'll be absolutely bonkers, and they can now hit on 2's without overheating as well as buffing Kastelan accuracy as well. And that's before we get to the S9 3D plasma cannon or respawning versions, or the fact that you can take a 20pt squad of regular servitors to bring back dead ones with ease or even give the unit a 5+ invuln that can be buffed to a 2+/4++ by parking them on an objective with shroudpsalm.

Oh yeah, and they're troops, so you can take what is one of the most powerful fire support units in the codex now and use it to generate CP for your extra batallions. Competitive admech will bare minimum be running 6 of these guys every game.