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For years I have never really thought about the black legion when considering CSM. I have always thought about CSM in terms of the original legions, that still exist, and their allegiances to a god and their uniqueness like the loyalist chapters.

I never really see anyone talk about black legion or say they play black legion, But they will say they play CSM or one of the legions.

Did GW fail in marketing BL as the main CSM force in the game or is it just me. The codex focuses on all the traitor legions to the detriment of the black legion, in my opinion. I’ve always looked at it as what legion will I play. Again it might just be me.

I play Black Legion and have for over a year now. They're extremely fun, and I can tell you that out of 16 Chaos Marine players in our area, 9 of us play the Legion. They have the best character and the best stratagems out of the codex, their supplemental material from Vigilus is extremely good.

Of all the 40k Legions and Warbands to play, I chose Black Legion.

I don't think there's really anything wrong with the marketing for them. They are the *generic* Legion, and that's okay - they're also the largest too, so just saying "CSM", in lore, more often just means Black Legion or some kind. Like how someone often says "I play Guardsmen" instead of "Cadians".

I played BL at the end of 7th and early in 8th, and yes they're the "generic" Chaos ones, but they're also really good. They have a great character and a great paint scheme. Also, if' you're at all interested in playing older editions, on occasion the Black Legion has been the Legion with the most flexibility to take Marks or Cult units, from time to time. The idea is that the Black Legion is able to unify more forces under it's banner because it's the pinnacle anti-Imperial legion, and has access to more resources and stronger leadership.

Plus, their colors are black and gold, making them both evil and pimp!

Plus, they're kinda like Chaos Deathwatch, only without all the hyper-specialised gear. Which is pretty awesome.

Aren’t they more like the Ultramarines of Chaos?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Aren’t they more like the Ultramarines of Chaos?

Not at all. In fact, I would give that title to the Word Bearers, for their strict adherence to chaos dogma (which changes depending on who's in charge). The Black Legion is more like a blob monster. It absorbs any and every force it can, as long as they are willing to wear the black and gold and pledge fealty. It had an interesting dichotomy with another warband that attempted to do a similar thing, Thargus Daravek's Legion Host. But where the Legion Host wanted each warband to hold on to their former history and culture, the Black Legion believes in stripping out any former ties and starting with a clean slate.

If you need to be sold on the Black Legion go read Talon of Horus

BrianDavion wrote:
If you need to be sold on the Black Legion go read Talon of Horus

I intend to! I want to be sold on the Black Legion. A bunch of my second-hand chaos marines are painted in their colors. It's just that everything I've seen about them makes them feel like the generic/default option whose gimmick is, "We use the whole codex." If the BL can't sway me, I'll end up comitting to some Huron-style random chaos scum instead. D:

I've played Black Legion since I started way back in 3rd edition because black is the best colour.

They are one of the original traitor legions too. They just used to be called the Sons of Horus.

Black Legion's favoured method of warfare is overwhelming force focused on strategic enemy positions. They move in fast and hard and hit the enemy where it hurts the most with a massive assault and focus on taking out enemy command. They also have the ability to mobilize more traitor marines than any other legion. The problem is that the former is harder to translate into the game than the latter. So GW focuses on their ability to "take everything +the kitchen sink" approach. IMO, they've never got Black Legion right rules wise.

The problem that GW had with Black Legion is that they could never figure out what the Legion was all about until the Horus Hersey series started. Forge World and Black Library nailed all the subtle nuances of the Black Legion, Horus and most importantly Abaddon.

The trouble with Black Legion is they aren't and instant sell. You look at an army like World Eaters and say, yeah, they're all blood, gore and close combat. You look at Thousand Sons and say, yeah, they're all magic. It's easy to market something when it's typecast. It's harder when there's multiple layers to what is going on. Especially considering GW codexes only really scratch the surface of what the army is about anyway.

My suggestion would be to read at least the first 3 Horus Heresy novels, The Sons of Horus entry in the first Horus Heresy book, Talon of Horus and Black Legion. These provide tremendous insight into (IMO) one of the most interesting armies in the game and one of the most underrated and overlooked character in the game; Abaddon the Despoiler.

I'm also going to link Arron Dembski Bowden's thoughts on Abaddon because I think these are the best words ever written about this misunderstood character:

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They are one of the original traitor legions too. They just used to be called the Sons of Horus.

Is that not the big misnomer of the Black Legion? They're not the Sons of Horus. They weren't founded as any sort of extension of the Sons of Horus. The Sons of Horus weren't even a majority of the Black Legion when it was first created by Abaddon. That's something ADB has pushed quite a bit across the two novels.

I kinda feel like the push for the Black Legion to be the poster boy for chaos is because almost every non-legion specific unit (Like noise marines, zerkers, rubrics and plagues) are basically already decked out as Black legion. Add in that they have the only commander-esque character in the codex and it's pretty much obvious then.

BrianDavion wrote:
If you need to be sold on the Black Legion go read Talon of Horus

If you thought ADB could do no wrong (as I did), read Talon of Horus

The Black Legion has a cool (but brief) portrayal in Lords of Silence, where the ships in a Chaos fleet are portrayed as almost having personalities. The BL ships were described as sleek apex predators, and fits well with their meritocratic vibe.

The bigest flaw with the Black Legion is that thee will never be as cool as the Night Lords.

I'll echo that the Black Legion AREN'T the Sons of Horus, even though the two are very strongly connected.

The Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves are, as described, excellent speartip hunters. All about the aggressive alpha strike, bullying tactics, like a great white. A very centralised Legion, massive cult of personality around Horus, but also very proud and somewhat insular because of their pride as the Warmaster's Legion.

Then, Heresy happens, Horus dies, yada yada. The Legions retreat - the sons of Horus retreat first, an act that earns them the hatred of every other Legion for fleeing so soon. The Primarch dead (the first traitor Primarch to actually die), they set up a shrine-fortress to Horus on one of the planets in the Eye of Terror, and they get absolutely wrecked by the other Traitor Legions, as well as rampant possession by daemons that occurs.

Abaddon basically steps in, and says "we've got to stop worshipping Horus so much, and rebrand our entire identity, no more clinging onto the old Legions and their failures, we're going to be more that that",and creates the Black Legion. Notably, the Black Legion contains lots of members from other Legions, who similarly reject their original heritage, and there is no love lost for the few Sons of Horus who refuse to ally with Abaddon (arguably, they suffer worse fates). They have an ex-Sons of Horus commander, who uses lots of Sons of Horus tactics, but they're not really a direct successor of the Sons of Horus or as simple as the Sons with a new coat of paint.

Brutus_Apex, I have to admit that ADB article actually sold me on Abaddon. Well done.

Brutus_Apex, I have to admit that ADB article actually sold me on Abaddon. Well done.

I'm glad you found it as interesting and enlightening as I did.

Black Legion certainly isn't the Sons of Horus, but it's important to understand the history of this legion to put things into context otherwise one might mistakingly think that they are the Chaos version of the Ultramarines.

the little "train of thought" thing featuring abaddon in the latest seige of terra novel was absolutely great too. I'm thinking that is the EXACT moment First Captain Ezykle Abaddon begins to become Abaddon the Dispoiler

 harlokin wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
If you need to be sold on the Black Legion go read Talon of Horus

If you thought ADB could do no wrong (as I did), read Talon of Horus

The Black Legion has a cool (but brief) portrayal in Lords of Silence, where the ships in a Chaos fleet are portrayed as almost having personalities. The BL ships were described as sleek apex predators, and fits well with their meritocratic vibe.

The bigest flaw with the Black Legion is that thee will never be as cool as the Night Lords.

I just finished the Night Lords Omnibus. Enjoyed the first novel. Second was Ok. Third was disjointed and felt... overly-indulgent. The tone shift from the first two was baffling, and just skipped over the reasons why.
But the 'cool' factor of the Night Lords seems to be that of kids that kick puppies and give smaller kids wedgies because they don't have the wit to entertain themselves or find any productive outlet for their tiny minds.
Its all the Daddy issues of the HH come home to fester because Daddy hated them for existing and now he's gone, and they just 'don't wanna' grow up.

There's a considerable distance between the Black Legion being a unified military organization, who's previous leader is considered a fool, and who have a functional drab black uniform and...

The claws of a murdered god, reaching out across time and space to deliver His message: Death is nothing compared to vindication. In Midnight Clad, they have come for you...

Ave Dominus Nox

Nurglitch wrote:
There's a considerable distance between the Black Legion being a unified military organization, who's previous leader is considered a fool, and who have a functional drab black uniform and...

The claws of a murdered god, reaching out across time and space to deliver His message: Death is nothing compared to vindication. In Midnight Clad, they have come for you...

That's really not the take away I got from those books.
First, the message was more for the Night Lords than for the Imperium. And they largely didn't get it and still don't care.

Second, they're mostly squabbling warband captains and their followers- their primary focus is each other. Their secondary focus is other legions, and occasionally they care about doing trivial supply raids on the Imperium.


Third, the Black Legion never had a previous leader. There's only ever been the one.

Sure.

Or, put another way, we're sold on the Night Lords because we like their style(s) and you don't. We think they're awfully stylish. Heck, I have an inordinate number of them built bit-by-bit from Khorne Berzerkers, bits of Tactical, Assault, and Devastator SMs, and other bits and bobs.

All the conflicting lore about the Black Legion is just another one of those things that has no right answer even if you care to think about it. That's the lovely thing about 40k, it's a la carte. Maybe you like ADB-style Black Legion. Maybe you like 2nd edition Codex: Chaos Space Marine style Black Legion. Maybe it's some other material that uses the Black Legion that has a style that appeals to you. Maybe you have some head-canon you are just itching to share?

I'm completely lost now. 40k hasn't been 'a la carte' in....25+ years, if not longer. Which would put Night Lords back in the days they were a Khorne-dedicated legion.

The entire evolution of 40k is about nailing down the loose bits and making them fact (and retconning away anything that doesn't fit).


You can't really have a meaningful background discussion of 'headcanon.'

Voss wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
There's a considerable distance between the Black Legion being a unified military organization, who's previous leader is considered a fool, and who have a functional drab black uniform and...

The claws of a murdered god, reaching out across time and space to deliver His message: Death is nothing compared to vindication. In Midnight Clad, they have come for you...

That's really not the take away I got from those books.
First, the message was more for the Night Lords than for the Imperium. And they largely didn't get it and still don't care.

The message was for both, but mainly for the Emperor and the Imperium. There's a reason the Night Haunter wanted the assassin to get away with the message, so it would get back to the Imperium.

Voss wrote:
I'm completely lost now. 40k hasn't been 'a la carte' in....25+ years, if not longer. Which would put Night Lords back in the days they were a Khorne-dedicated legion.

The entire evolution of 40k is about nailing down the loose bits and making them fact (and retconning away anything that doesn't fit).


You can't really have a meaningful background discussion of 'headcanon.'

Yes, it was an attempt at politely excusing myself from the conversation.

The idea that the black legion, like a lot of heretic marines, is a loose collection of warband a that spend as much time fighting each other as the imperium has always bothered me and I think one of the reasons why I am never sold on them. To me it’s always felt like an excuse for GW not to focus on and produce decent army lists for each of the legions like they have for the loyalist chapters. For DG and TS, who have a full codex they are described as a coherent controlled force.

I fee like GW have tried at different points to set CSM, Necrons and Tyranids as the main baddy force in the galaxy but has never invested in any of them like they have space marines so non of them have achieved that status

Nurglitch wrote:
There's a considerable distance between the Black Legion being a unified military organization, who's previous leader is considered a fool, and who have a functional drab black uniform and...

The claws of a murdered god, reaching out across time and space to deliver His message: Death is nothing compared to vindication. In Midnight Clad, they have come for you...

perhaps we can try to keep the topic on the black legion and save the night lords fanboying for another thread eh?