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How do!

So here’s a hot take for you, based on Star Wars canon. Or at least, a certain point of view based on the same.

See, Mon Mothma wasn’t unknown to Sheev Palpatine. And it seems she started her tenure as Chandrila’s senator relatively shortly before Palpatine became Chancellor.

Throughout the Clone War, she was a pacifist voice, urging negotiation over deepening the conflict. And once he declared himself Emperor, began the founding of the Rebel Alliance.

In Rebels, we also see her be the first to publicly speak out against The Emperor, on the Holonet no less. And from there her position as a leader of the Rebels was cemented.

Post Endor, she became a vocal proponent of disarmament, championing only a relatively modest standing army/navy for the New Republic. The old Imperial War Machine was dismantled, broken down and recycled. Her argument was that the new government couldn’t simply take over the reins of the Empire, lest they be seen as employing exactly the same policy of military intimidation. She saw that the people’s of the Galaxy were likely sick of conflict, given the circa 30 years of it (including Clone Wars, Empire and Rebellion eras).

Mon Mothma espoused the New Republic to be a voluntary thing. Something worlds and systems could join, but would respect their choice to forge their own path.

Into the era of the First Order, she was amongst those who refused to see them as a serious threat, hence The Resitance was more a paramilitary force than an actual, properly funded and equipped army.

Now, looking at Exegol? She couldn’t have played into Palpatine’s decrepit hands if she’d tried. When The Emperor fell over Endor, the Galaxy was heavily militarised, not just by The Empire, but in terms of leftover materiel from the Clone Wars. From blasters to Capital scale ships, it wasn’t hard to arm yourself if you so wished. That made it troublesome to rule. Each Rebel victory against his war machine emboldened other malcontents. Every hint of weakness covered with further oppression bred new opponents. And they were readily arming themselves with said left overs, as well as with new toys from sympathetic ship yards.

The Final Order was a way to counter this. Taking the potential threat of a Deathstar, and multiplying it by each suitably equipped Star Destroyer. With no standing military, or even central organisation for defence? That was a galaxy ripe for the taking. The sole weakness in the plan was getting off of Exegol and into the galaxy at large. Sure, the various systems could eventually rally forces enough to challenge those Star Destroyers in fleet actions. But not all of them, all at the same time. Which opens up the “attack my fleet, and six planets die” type tactic. At that point, any victory by the malcontents is so heavily punished, support for them would soon fade.

So spectacularly did Mon Mothma dance to Palpatine’s tune, I’ve serious questions as to where her loyalties truly lay.

When she was fleeing Coruscant in 2 BBY....not a huge amount of resources were sent after her. Indeed, it was arguably just enough to make her escape seem daring and plausible. Because Palpatine needed her in place, so he could once again play all sides of the conflict.

He needed her to be a Face in the Rebellion, and a reliable voice for peace. Someone who would be listened to, and heeded, when she argued for disarmament. So that when Palpatine revealed himself once again, it was to a galaxy with its metaphorical trousers down. A galaxy ill positioned and poorly equipped to do a damn thing about it.

Whaddya reckon, Dakka?

I feel like it's just emblematic of the bad writing in the sequel trilogy that makes it seem like Mon Mothma was a secret collaborator to Palpatine's return in the form of the First Order. Realistically the Resistance should have just been New Republic special forces or intelligence but then Kathleen Kennedy said no for some reason.

To play devil's advocate and try and make sense within the context of the sequel trilogy, I still wouldn't say Mon Mothma's actions hint her towards being a traitor. If anything this is something we've already seen IRL. Look at politicians before the outbreak of WW2 with appeasement from Neville Chamberlain and how reluctant the Western powers were in wanting to get into another World War. When you've bloodied yourself after a victory, very few people will have the stomach for more war unless you have imperialist ambitions, which the New Republic was decidedly not. It doesn't help that there were clearly Imperial sympathizers within the Core Worlds that likely obfuscated the warnings given to the Senate about the threat of the First Order.

We can see this reluctance to dealing with a looming threat right now with China. The collapse of the Soviet Union has made the West complacent towards China's infiltration of the Western media, corporations, and campuses. There's been China watchers warning people that China has never stopped their ideology in wanting their brand of communist revolution/hegemon and how they've taken advantage of Western accommodation to their entry into international markets to subvert our systems to their gain. It's only recently with their increased aggression and their bungling with the coronavirus that people are starting to pay more attention, when they've been building up their strength and committing atrocities from the very beginning.

So Mon Mothma is more close to a politician that has worked so hard to try and establish a peacetime power that she doesn't really know what to do when they're the established government having to react against a building external threat, since the last time that happened with the Separatists they became the Empire. It doesn't help that she doesn't really get a direct characterization in the movies outside of some limited screentime acting as a background character or as an exposition piece. I'm pretty sure we got more characterization from Bail Organa than her frankly.

Another big thing that would take her away from being an Imperial spy is how she never shared that the Rebels had information regarding the Death Star's weakness in its exhaust port. If she was really working with Palps the Imperials would have done something to either seal it or protect it enough that Luke never would have had the chance to blow it up.

It might have been interesting to see a young Mon Mothma arguing the case for the Separatist Alliance in the prequels, maybe have the protagonists write her off as a pretty face and a moderate voice masking the true sinister nature of the endeavor - only for her continued presence in the Senate, leadership position in the Rebel Alliance, and finally one of the key architects of the New Republic to prove that she was in it all along in good faith for the long haul.

But alas, such payoffs are reserved for franchises with actual long-term plans.

As it stands, I don't think it makes sense for Mothma to have been a tool, knowing or otherwise, in Palpatine's long-term plans, if only because some of her actions do effectively stymie him from early victory throughout Clone Wars, and for all his scheming Palpatine is less a machiavellian schemer weaving plans within plans, but instead a petty man who conflates military might and personal power with the right to rule, but none the less keeps contingencies.

I don't think he expected to be defeated at Endor - I don't think he gave Mothma or her 'pitiful little band' enough credit for that, but none the less had a contingency in place to have the Empire essentially gut itself in order to make things as difficult as possible for whatever successor state came after (in his mind, perhaps lead by Vader, or even Luke, because again, he can't believe anyone who could kill him personally wouldn't aspire to rule the galaxy as he did) with any number of deep agents in place to gum up the works politically and push things in the direction he wanted.

To that end, when the Alliance won and started to hash out how exactly they wanted to restore the Republic, Mothma's vision was one less of a massive galactic state and more like the UN, or League of Nations. In turn, Palpatine's scheming eventually leads to power blocks within that organization (representatives from Kuat and a number of other worlds important to the former Empire) to gridlock the system and, eventually, succeed to form their own galactic alliance (the 'official' birth of the First Order) which eventually takes hostile action against the Republic - of which Mothma is still a part.

My point is: no, I don't really think Mothma is a tool of Palpatine, knowingly or otherwise - there may well have been a time where he let her live when he otherwise may have had her killed in order to achieve some end (like centralizing opposition in the Senate or coaxing the rebellion to rally around a figurehead) but from the time the first Death Star blew up she was, whether he acknowledged it or not, his worthy adversary, and if he was involved at all in the schemes to undermine the New Republic it was precisely because he recognized her as such.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like it's just emblematic of the bad writing in the sequel trilogy that makes it seem like Mon Mothma was a secret collaborator to Palpatine's return in the form of the First Order. Realistically the Resistance should have just been New Republic special forces or intelligence but then Kathleen Kennedy said no for some reason.

Is there a source on that being KK's call? Or is this just because she invented death and all things that are bad?

If anything I would have pegged it as being a JJ contribution.

Whaddya reckon, Dakka?

Its the Horus Heresy problem.

Look, Mothmom is a talking head giving (part of) a briefing in RotJ. She isn't much of a person, they just needed a couple people (Madine is the other) to yammer out the plot and move on to the next act.

As the EU books proceeded to categorize every single button in the Star Wars universe, more crap accreted onto a known but (originally) under-used name. Then more from various cartoons, comics, games, spin-offs, etc. Its the mess of dozens of writers with no particular direction, but you aren't going to find any more revelation than you would trying to squint into a kaleidoscope in a night club.

As far as sequel stuff goes, I'm not even sure that the writers/directors for those films even remember (or knew) she ever existed. The plots don't really connect to the SW political reality- indeed they actively hand wave it away to have a 'Resisty' force against the not-Empire, just like the OT.

The Sequel Trilogy is notoriously incoherent across every metric and is particularly disinterested in the political context of the narrative.

Is it more likely that Mon Mothma, one of the principle architects of the Rebellion, was a secret agent of the Emperor OR that the Sequel Trilogy was poorly thought out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Look, Mothmom is a talking head giving (part of) a briefing in RotJ.

Sure, she’s not well developed. But even superficially the characterization is symbolically important. First, the person in charge is a woman — never once in the OT do we see any women leadership in the Empire. Second, she is clearly a civilian, indicating that the Rebellion is an ideological alternative to the militant Empire.

 Manchu wrote:
First, the person in charge is a woman — never once in the OT do we see any women leadership in the Empire.

I don't think in the OT there even was a woman in the cast of the Empire and that's even counting the extra. Later addition to the franchise proved that there were some of them though. Hell, I think Leia was the only woman with a speaking role until Mon Mothma got her scene in RoJ. The Griffins made the joke they were the only women in the galaxy because of it.

As for the theory that she was in league with Palpatine, I think it's consipirational thinking and shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Aunt Beru?

 Manchu wrote:
Aunt Beru?

Yeah you are right. I think she calls Luke for diner... That's not much, but it does make you a speaking role. The death of Luke's familly is supposed to be mementous event that sets the character on his journey yet, their death seems to old no weight in the movie. I guess that's just poor writting.

She tells Owen to lighten up about Luke and that Luke is too much like his father to be a farmer, or something along those lines.

She helped start the Rebel Alliance.

Just because the sequel trilogy was poorly planned out (if planned out at all) and was generally gak from start to finish doesn't change who Mon Mothma was.

But we see Palpatine playing both sides against each other during the Clone War. So he’s not above using a cats paw at all.

After all, she’s on Yavin when they set off to Scariff, but notably absent for the battle of Yavin. That could be an attempt to preserve some of the alliance leadership. Or it could be her ensuring her own survival for selfish reasons.

Controlling the de facto leader of the Rebel Alliance would also aid Palpatine in drawing them together, as we saw over Endor, so he could crush them in one fell swoop.

I think we’re see plans within plans, contingency for contingency etc.

If the first Deathstar had survived and blatted Yavin IV, there’d be little hope of challenging it, as the known copies of the plans would go with it (including those in R2-D2). And with the second Deathstar already being under construction, Palpatine wins.

Endor? If the Ewoks hadn’t assisted the Rebels? Shield stays up, Alliance dealt a dolorous blow. Palpatine wins.

Exegol? Palpatine wins.

The man was a near perfect planner - and it seems only the will of the force ever truly stopped him.

In that light, Mon Mothma being a willing agent does make sense.

I think you’ve only managed to establish that Palpatine’s trap for the Alliance at Endor was a pretty good plan, which TBH was never in controversy.

Not much special can be said about the Battle of Yavin, as the Empire really flubbed losing those Death Star plans at Scarif and Galen Erso had even baked a major design flaw into the battle station that Imperial analysts did not notice until it was already being exploited. None of this reflects well on Palpatine in the slightest. To the contrary, credit is due to Mon Mothma for setting Operation Fracture into motion.

Rise of Skywalker has no bearing on this topic and, more generally, is so utterly absurd as to be rejected as a fever dream.

In sum, there is no reason whatsoever to suspect Mon Mothma is a secret Imperial agent.

Can we just keep some good vs evil in our Star Wars universe? Does it always have to be shades of grey?

[rant]

I mean, some people like Benicio Del Toro's take on the Star Wars galaxy in Last Jedi, but I was not a fan and found it infuriating and insulting. It was design to tell us as fans that nothing matters. This conspiracy theory is birthed from the same place, that nothing in Star Wars matters as it is just a circular world of action/reaction with no "Good" in it. There is no battle between good and evil in Star Wars.

However, if I wanted that crap; I would just watch the news everyday.

[/rant]

 Easy E wrote:
Can we just keep some good vs evil in our Star Wars universe? Does it always have to be shades of grey?

[rant]

I mean, some people like Benicio Del Toro's take on the Star Wars galaxy in Last Jedi, but I was not a fan and found it infuriating and insulting. It was design to tell us as fans that nothing matters. This conspiracy theory is birthed from the same place, that nothing in Star Wars matters as it is just a circular world of action/reaction with no "Good" in it. There is no battle between good and evil in Star Wars.

However, if I wanted that crap; I would just watch the news everyday.

[/rant]

I regreat that I have but one exault to give this post.

seriously, there's nothing odd here, Mothma's not some mole she's just an idealist. thing is, most of what she's doing has some damn good logic to it. if she keeps a gigantic rebel military, declares membership in the republic isn't optional etc. How is the new republic any differant from the empire? she knew that, she had to apper differant. sometimes revolutions need to make symbolic changes to make it clear they are not the old order

BrianDavion wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Can we just keep some good vs evil in our Star Wars universe? Does it always have to be shades of grey?

[rant]

I mean, some people like Benicio Del Toro's take on the Star Wars galaxy in Last Jedi, but I was not a fan and found it infuriating and insulting. It was design to tell us as fans that nothing matters. This conspiracy theory is birthed from the same place, that nothing in Star Wars matters as it is just a circular world of action/reaction with no "Good" in it. There is no battle between good and evil in Star Wars.

However, if I wanted that crap; I would just watch the news everyday.

[/rant]

I regreat that I have but one exault to give this post.

seriously, there's nothing odd here, Mothma's not some mole she's just an idealist. thing is, most of what she's doing has some damn good logic to it. if she keeps a gigantic rebel military, declares membership in the republic isn't optional etc. How is the new republic any differant from the empire? she knew that, she had to apper differant. sometimes revolutions need to make symbolic changes to make it clear they are not the old order

I'll grant Mon Mothma's beliefs are genuine. But she should have remembered what happened to the demilitarized OLD Republic before demilitarizing the NEW Republic.

On the other hand, declaring membership in the New Republic be voluntary was necessary, in the light of abuses from both the Old Republic and the Empire.

Well, to be fair, the New Republic wasn't entirely demilitarized, its just that the entire fleet was (inexplicably) parked above the new capital (and not out patrolling borders/hunting pirates/protecting shipping/helping member planets) and all magically destroyed by the (orders of magnitude faster than light speed) mega laser in TFA.

Because reasons.

Because somehow having Leia come out of retirement to lead (or just advise since she's sadly meaningless in these films) a (small) fleet was inferior to having a Resistance movement against an enemy the New Republic randomly didn't believe in despite everyone knowing about it.

Maybe she's what's her names real mom by way of Palpatine? Then dumped on whatever planet that was.