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i mean for 510 points you get.. a glorified transport that cant even transport Mega Nobz. Even if you slam lootas, tank bustas or flash gitz inside of it, it still doesnt seem okay for its price. It used to have interesting weapons but now it has nothing, doesnt even have twin big shootas.

You can bring a supa kannon but for some reason, despite it being crewed by grots, you still hit on 5s, which seem more like an oversight than anything else.

So how do you guys use the Gargantuan Squiggoth if at all? Because the unit seem really really bad for its price. no invul save, a save of 3 (all which is ork standard) but also no ramshackle, because its not a vehicle. It cant be charged after an advance unless you pay extra 300 for ghaz, so you cant get in to the fray fast either. Sure it hits hard with its 8 attacks but since it only has one profile and not two different melee profiles, it means you cant deal with small fry which will bar your way forward. A gorkanaut at least can make 18 weaker attacks that still hit hard, this thing can only hit hard, taking further utility away from it, like somehow taking away its guns werent enough.

To make up for that it used to deal D6 mortal wounds to anyone (on a +2) it was within engagement range of, now it only deals D6 mortal wounds to one unit. Sure that sounds super powerful and it probably is, but it sounds like what it exactly needs to remain useful as a charging unit right now with the removal of basically all its weapons and options. It needs power and attacks, something which it doesnt have now. The D6 mortal wounds to anyone within engagement range made sense for what it has now, now that it lost most of its ranged power.

FW units that are worthwhile in 9th are very, very rare. Nerfs to FW units don't happen because GW had a concrete objective in re-balancing a specific unit in some way, they happen because they don't want you using FW units and need to periodically nerf all of them just to be sure.

Which made it really odd when Nids made out like bandits and all the larger beasts are holding the faction together. It's a wild ride enjoying FW stuff. Intense Pendulum swings in balance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
FW units that are worthwhile in 9th are very, very rare. Nerfs to FW units don't happen because GW had a concrete objective in re-balancing a specific unit in some way, they happen because they don't want you using FW units and need to periodically nerf all of them just to be sure.

Yea but the Forge world Kill Tank for orks is actually pretty good for its price, its very cheap even.

Hell Kill tanks does the job that gargantuan squiggoths should do as transports, much better. Two of them is around 550 points and they, together are much more duable, still retain a ram ability, gets ramshackle, drives further, can carry 12 models each including Mega Nobz. AND they have a kick ass attack and CAN be charged after an advance with a warboss on warbike or defftrike if you want to charge them in for what ever reason (as they do have a good melee profile too). They also shoot better.

The only thing the garg has over these Kill tanks is that its open topped and the models inside remain stationary when it moves, and can shoot out when its in combat.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
FW units that are worthwhile in 9th are very, very rare. Nerfs to FW units don't happen because GW had a concrete objective in re-balancing a specific unit in some way, they happen because they don't want you using FW units and need to periodically nerf all of them just to be sure.

Why don’t they want people using GW products?
Sounds kind of tinfoil hat.

Also, don’t tell nids.
For the first time in ages, their big critters are actually worth using, rather than being giant resin paper weights.

Should the day ever come when I have a functioning Ork army I will definitely include the gargantuan squiggoth now & then.
Its a great model & I've had one for ages. I just lack the orks to go with it (and, honestly, the will to build those orks).

Well.

Not everyone cares terribly about efficiency. Some folk just field stuff based entirely upon Rule of Cool.

So, yeah. Folk will be fielding the unit in question.

Jackal90 wrote:
...Why don’t they want people using GW products?
Sounds kind of tinfoil hat...

1) Internal politics, the GW design team doesn't want the FW design team stepping on their toes. GW is not a monolithic entity, it's a federation of warring tribes. 2) The economics of FW minis are screwy since the production volume is tiny, if the rules were good enough that people wanted lots of them they'd have to start doing them in plastic and that'd disrupt the schedule of the endless torrent of Primaris releases. 3) The barrier to entry for FW units in terms of both cost and modeling difficulty is higher, they don't want to risk FW units gatekeeping play. 4) When they hard-squat things (just discontinue them and stop printing the rules) people get angry, they're trying to figure out how to soft-squat things by making them terrible so nobody uses them, then when they do squat them the community won't notice.

I can't speak to Tyranids, I haven't paid that much attention to their FW rules, but I've paid some attention to the SM, Eldar, Custodes, and Mechanicum/Knights ranges, and everything that was once playable there has only gotten worse every update.

I do wish to stress that this is only an explanation that fits the facts; I have no special knowledge here, only frustration.

A friend of mine has one and asked my advice on what to do with it. I told him to take it with a KFF mek and bring it alongside a rolla wagon with the Forktress KJ. Fill the Forktress with MANZ or other melee threats, fill the Squiggoth with Tankbustas, Flash Gitz and other shooting threats, and the enemy's heavy antitank will have to pick between them.

Apparently it was a fairly successful strategy - shooting threat was perceived to be the most threatening, as it was reaching out and touching space marines, but the amount of firepower it actually takes to deal 36 T8 5++ wounds was underestimated.

Single big things in a balanced game will never be more durable than multiple smaller things - 1 dead kill tank and 1 full-health kill tank is less valuable than 1 half-health Squiggoth after all.

But there really are no facts there at all, just pure speculation.

There is no stepping on toes.
GW runs them, they choose what they do.

Barrier of entry?
You mean like how some plastic infantry kits from GW cost more than resin kits from FW?
The big stuff does cost far more, but GW do not make anything similar.

So this squatting theory is based on what facts?

Looks like just a speculative post to me with nothing of any real merit in terms of actual facts.

 Eldarain wrote:
Which made it really odd when Nids made out like bandits and all the larger beasts are holding the faction together. It's a wild ride enjoying FW stuff. Intense Pendulum swings in balance.

Anyone who actually knows enough about FW units (I have always kept tabs on every FW updated units, ever since 6th edition at least) can only agree with this. There is no scheme set up by anyone at GW or FW attempting to make this or that under or overpowered. The people designing rules for FW units are just very bad at their job. I have 3 dimas and 1 of each hierodules, I am enjoying their time in the sun, because I know the Pendulum will swing back some day (perhaps even in 2021 if us nid players are unlucky).

I have 3 kill tanks, they are "ok good" (they would be very good if the meta wasn't so harsh on them), just like the mega dredd, and I know the rules might shift back to "bad" any update soon. In the same way the Garg Sguig will someday get good rules again.

Wait for a good price on ebay, kitbash, get the stuff cheap. Don't spend too much time painting them (I just finished a megadredd, horrible kit, I did an ok tabletop + job on it, it will do). This way you are sheltered for when the bad weather comes for your unit.

I must say though, autoinclude FW units do tend to get heavy modifications though, like leviathan dreads did, but they still seem OK to me know, rulewise.

But honestly, every FW update is a huge reshuffle of options available to any comp player. No one can really know what comes out of the magic hat

I really don't use that much FW at all, but I will chip in and say I'm really enjoying my Grot Tanks and GMT with the new index. I've only gotten to use them one time in an actual game, because I've only played one game with my grots since the book dropped, but them having basic, functional, decently pointed capabilities without having some special ability that makes them a pressing thing that you HAVE to use and so much better than the codex stuff is exactly what FW ought to be.

The thing about Nid monsters is that people really really want to play monster mash, but the actual profiles of the codex nid monsters are fething HORRIBLE. Like, miserable, I feel like nobody actually goes and looks at nid rules (I certainly dont) but go compare whatever nid creature to some known quantity baseline unit you're familiar with like a Redemptor Dread and just...compare the capabilities and the points cost.

They're all mostly just using Index 8th rules still, IIRC the 8th nid codex was one of those "half a dozen tiny rules tweaks, slap strats and subfactions on and call it good" dexes. A lot of factions are still just sitting on effectively their index ruleset with very minor tweaks. Admech for sure (barring the new units), GK, Nids, Eldar.

the_scotsman wrote:
I really don't use that much FW at all, but I will chip in and say I'm really enjoying my Grot Tanks and GMT with the new index. I've only gotten to use them one time in an actual game, because I've only played one game with my grots since the book dropped, but them having basic, functional, decently pointed capabilities without having some special ability that makes them a pressing thing that you HAVE to use and so much better than the codex stuff is exactly what FW ought to be.

The thing about Nid monsters is that people really really want to play monster mash, but the actual profiles of the codex nid monsters are fething HORRIBLE. Like, miserable, I feel like nobody actually goes and looks at nid rules (I certainly dont) but go compare whatever nid creature to some known quantity baseline unit you're familiar with like a Redemptor Dread and just...compare the capabilities and the points cost.

They're all mostly just using Index 8th rules still, IIRC the 8th nid codex was one of those "half a dozen tiny rules tweaks, slap strats and subfactions on and call it good" dexes. A lot of factions are still just sitting on effectively their index ruleset with very minor tweaks. Admech for sure (barring the new units), GK, Nids, Eldar.

sure they are decently pointed untill you remember you pay "decently" for a unit that cant use stratagems. then suddenly one realizes that "decently" should have been cheaper, to make up for it

Beardedragon wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I really don't use that much FW at all, but I will chip in and say I'm really enjoying my Grot Tanks and GMT with the new index. I've only gotten to use them one time in an actual game, because I've only played one game with my grots since the book dropped, but them having basic, functional, decently pointed capabilities without having some special ability that makes them a pressing thing that you HAVE to use and so much better than the codex stuff is exactly what FW ought to be.

The thing about Nid monsters is that people really really want to play monster mash, but the actual profiles of the codex nid monsters are fething HORRIBLE. Like, miserable, I feel like nobody actually goes and looks at nid rules (I certainly dont) but go compare whatever nid creature to some known quantity baseline unit you're familiar with like a Redemptor Dread and just...compare the capabilities and the points cost.

They're all mostly just using Index 8th rules still, IIRC the 8th nid codex was one of those "half a dozen tiny rules tweaks, slap strats and subfactions on and call it good" dexes. A lot of factions are still just sitting on effectively their index ruleset with very minor tweaks. Admech for sure (barring the new units), GK, Nids, Eldar.

sure they are decently pointed untill you remember you pay "decently" for a unit that cant use stratagems. then suddenly one realizes that "decently" should have been cheaper, to make up for it

damn bro, you telling me that my 'all grots and grot accessories' army might be suboptimal???? I thought I was on that new meta gak dawg damn.

I just spend all my CP on kustom jobs, character upgrades and strats for my 'grot-ified' ork units. Generally I include a few units designed to be cp-guzzlers just to spend the 5+1 per turn I have to burn during the game. Like I'll bring my AOS megaboss+Killa Kan with a Grot head as a Killa Klawboss and stick him in my Mangler Squigs As Bonebreaka Forktress and just triple fight him on a knight or something and that's a good way to burn the leftover CP.

the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I really don't use that much FW at all, but I will chip in and say I'm really enjoying my Grot Tanks and GMT with the new index. I've only gotten to use them one time in an actual game, because I've only played one game with my grots since the book dropped, but them having basic, functional, decently pointed capabilities without having some special ability that makes them a pressing thing that you HAVE to use and so much better than the codex stuff is exactly what FW ought to be.

The thing about Nid monsters is that people really really want to play monster mash, but the actual profiles of the codex nid monsters are fething HORRIBLE. Like, miserable, I feel like nobody actually goes and looks at nid rules (I certainly dont) but go compare whatever nid creature to some known quantity baseline unit you're familiar with like a Redemptor Dread and just...compare the capabilities and the points cost.

They're all mostly just using Index 8th rules still, IIRC the 8th nid codex was one of those "half a dozen tiny rules tweaks, slap strats and subfactions on and call it good" dexes. A lot of factions are still just sitting on effectively their index ruleset with very minor tweaks. Admech for sure (barring the new units), GK, Nids, Eldar.

sure they are decently pointed untill you remember you pay "decently" for a unit that cant use stratagems. then suddenly one realizes that "decently" should have been cheaper, to make up for it

damn bro, you telling me that my 'all grots and grot accessories' army might be suboptimal???? I thought I was on that new meta gak dawg damn.

I just spend all my CP on kustom jobs, character upgrades and strats for my 'grot-ified' ork units. Generally I include a few units designed to be cp-guzzlers just to spend the 5+1 per turn I have to burn during the game. Like I'll bring my AOS megaboss+Killa Kan with a Grot head as a Killa Klawboss and stick him in my Mangler Squigs As Bonebreaka Forktress and just triple fight him on a knight or something and that's a good way to burn the leftover CP.

I have no idea what you're saying at this point. Im pointing out that a unit thats "decently" priced should be able to use stratagems. if it cant, it shouldnt be decently priced, it should be cheap, which they are not, they are as you state, decently priced.

theres a reason no one uses them in tournements

I'm saying they used to be absolute trash, and now they are a solid mobile weapon platform for my grot army.

I'm also saying that if you gave me a choice, I would choose them having the Grot keyword over them getting to use Stratagems, because I use Cheeky Zoggers and a 6++ and reroll all 1s in shooting is better than occasionally getting to spend 2cp on More Dakka.

The fact that a GMT is slightly less efficient in Evil Sunz than a Skrapjet in a unit with the Corkskrew KJ is irrelevant to me, a person who plays Zoggers, because it is more efficient than a skrapjet in Zoggers thanks to getting the subfaction trait.

And grot tanks I don't know what you'd really compare them to, ork armies don't traditionally use shooting units as street sweepers, that's kind of a role I need to fill by having infantry that doesn't kill gak.140pts to dump out 10d3 S6 blast shots is pretty effective IMO.