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...and were the jedi already doing it?

Ok first off someone will say i should have posted this in forum x instead of this one. Well, i posted here.

Secondly, in a thread on star wars movies in the GM forum, I bought up how in the abysmal (to a lot of people) sequel series it seems that basically it was a force user's galaxy and everyone else just existed to be ruled over by FUs ( ) or killed in wars they were behind.

If you look at the whole movie series except for rogue one, it was all about force users and they were basically decicing the fate of the galaxy among themselves. palpatine was responsible for every death in the first trilogy, the destruction of alderaan, etc. The only thing that temporarily stopped him were other FUs.

palpatine again was pretty much responsible for the the whole clone wars, and this time the 'good' FUs failed to stop him so slunk off into hiding to wait for the light side to send them a new champion.

And of course grand master FU palpatine was responsible for the destruction of like 5 inhabited planets in the sequel trilogy and again an entire armada of ships crewed by the 'muggles' were utterly helpless before his omnipotent force power, so only another FU could do anything that mattered.

Now in rogue one we had people who were generally not FUs mattering, but only in the sense that they set the stage for the new FU in town, luke, to destroy the deathstar. And, yes, non FU Han Solo played a part in clearing the way for luke to nuke the death star. Oh, and the cast or rogue one? All died, because muggle lives don't matter, except in how they set things up for the only people who matter, the FUs, to be the heroes.

Given that one FU caused the destruction of 6 planets and how many billions of deaths, shouldn't non FUs, you know, ordinary people, or 'muggles', be very very afraid of FUs and seek to control them in self defense? Kind of maybe a little like the imperium controls psykers in 40k?

Also if you follow the non movie material, and even the movies to a degree, were the jedi already doing this? I mean we saw the kids in the temple, and according to some of the background, jedi more or less hunted kids with force potential and more of less one way or another took them for jedi training, often in the kinda nicey way, telling the parents their child had great potential, had a destiny, etc. But if the parents resisted, well, the kids ended up in the jedi temple one way or another. Maybe it was the kenobi way (Your child has a destiny." "Our child has a destiny." ) or maybe it was simply taking them without the parent's consent.

But even if you do it the nicey way, taking a parents child from them against their will is still kidnapping.

And BTW, just how good were the jedi anyway? They protected a republic that allowed slavery for a thousand generations, according to chronic liar (Or alternate truth teller) obiwan kenobi. So for for a thousand generations they supported slavery. Hell, america condoned slavery in 1776 and officially (in theory at least) abolished in in 1865. Rounding up america realized slavery was a bad thing in 5 generations, the great old republic the jedi upheld didn't figure than out in 1,000 generations? uh, yeah. Not sure how great that old republic was, not that what replaced it didn't suck worse. it sucked so bad it needed a deathstar to keep it going.

So after the sequel series, wouldn't it make sense for the galaxy to start viewing FUs as possible mega threats that needed to be controlled in some way? Should they?

Sure, it would suck to be born a FU in that case, but ask the people of alderaan and the 5, no 6,I just remembered that one in TROS, planets that got graveled in the sequel trilogy about whether or not FUs are a threat on a galactic scale that should be controlled.

Maybe they don't need to go as bad as the imperium does with inquisitors, black ships, etc, but if i were living in the post TROS star wars galaxy i think i'd be wanting some protection against FUs. I certainly wouldn;t want one as powerful as good ol' palpy to be allowed to take over again.

 Matt Swain wrote:

Ok first off someone will say i should have posted this in forum x instead of this one. Well, i posted here.

And I've moved it to the right one.

Oh, and the cast or rogue one? All died, because muggle lives don't matter, except in how they set things up for the only people who matter, the FUs, to be the heroes.

That's an ... odd... take.

They died to drive home the importance of what they were doing. Their lives mattered, but the mission was more important than their lives, and they were the heroes of that particular story precisely because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the cause.

Given that one FU caused the destruction of 6 planets and how many billions of deaths, shouldn't non FUs, you know, ordinary people, or 'muggles', be very very afraid of FUs and seek to control them in self defense? Kind of maybe a little like the imperium controls psykers in 40k?

Which force user did that? If you're referring to the Force Awakens, Hux (a non Force User) was the one who came up with that idea, and he was also the one who carried it through.

But even if you do it the nicey way, taking a parents child from them against their will is still kidnapping.

I haven't been keeping up with newer material, but I've never seen any indication that the Jedi took children against their parents' will.

And BTW, just how good were the jedi anyway? They protected a republic that allowed slavery for a thousand generations, according to chronic liar (Or alternate truth teller) obiwan kenobi.

The Republic never allowed slavery. The systems that did were not members of the Republic.

So after the sequel series, wouldn't it make sense for the galaxy to start viewing FUs as possible mega threats that needed to be controlled in some way? Should they?

So far as the galaxy as a whole knows by that point, Jedi and Sith are both just mythical figures, and all dead.

 insaniak wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:

Ok first off someone will say i should have posted this in forum x instead of this one. Well, i posted here.

And I've moved it to the right one

Oh, and the cast or rogue one? All died, because muggle lives don't matter, except in how they set things up for the only people who matter, the FUs, to be the heroes.

That's an ... odd... take.

They died to drive home the importance of what they were doing. Their lives mattered, but the mission was more important than their lives, and they were the heroes of that particular story precisely because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the cause.

Given that one FU caused the destruction of 6 planets and how many billions of deaths, shouldn't non FUs, you know, ordinary people, or 'muggles', be very very afraid of FUs and seek to control them in self defense? Kind of maybe a little like the imperium controls psykers in 40k?

Which force user did that? If you're referring to the Force Awakens, Hux (a non Force User) was the one who came up with that idea, and he was also the one who carried it through.

Wow, the way you missed that one i was wondering if you were the marksmanship instructor at the imperial stormtrooper academy. I mean i had to read that 3x to made sure i had it right.

Palpatine was the first order, he created it under the guise of snoke, and ran it top to bottom. Hux was a whiny weasely littlie administrator who could shout loud, he couldn't take a dump without snoke (palpatine) givimg him permission. Palpatine was responsible for everything the first order did and he certainly wanted them to use starkiller base to to a decap strike on the republic, tho honestly i wonder why he bothered as lame as it was. Probably too long since he'd caused a lot of misery and death, given his hidden, regenerating state, and was just jonesing to cause some terror and suffering. Plus you had to have seen he ordered of his new pet ships to destroy planet redshirt in TROS...

But even if you do it the nicey way, taking a parents child from them against their will is still kidnapping.

I haven't been keeping up with newer material, but I've never seen any indication that the Jedi took children against their parents' will.

And BTW, just how good were the jedi anyway? They protected a republic that allowed slavery for a thousand generations, according to chronic liar (Or alternate truth teller) obiwan kenobi.

The Republic never allowed slavery. The systems that did were not members of the Republic.

So after the sequel series, wouldn't it make sense for the galaxy to start viewing FUs as possible mega threats that needed to be controlled in some way? Should they?

So far as the galaxy as a whole knows by that point, Jedi and Sith are both just mythical figures, and all dead.

 Matt Swain wrote:


Also if you follow the non movie material, and even the movies to a degree, were the jedi already doing this? I mean we saw the kids in the temple, and according to some of the background, jedi more or less hunted kids with force potential and more of less one way or another took them for jedi training, often in the kinda nicey way, telling the parents their child had great potential, had a destiny, etc. But if the parents resisted, well, the kids ended up in the jedi temple one way or another. Maybe it was the kenobi way (Your child has a destiny." "Our child has a destiny." ) or maybe it was simply taking them without the parent's consent.

Uh no. Jedi didn't take without consent. Nor was anybody required to stay in the jedi temple. Leaving at any point was option. No harm done. No foul feelings. Count Dooku is obvious example. He left. Leaving jedi order was basically fill out papers and good luck with your future life. Have fun. Talk with you later.

 Matt Swain wrote:
And BTW, just how good were the jedi anyway? They protected a republic that allowed slavery for a thousand generations, according to chronic liar (Or alternate truth teller) obiwan kenobi.

So uhm...They allowed it by not forcing republic to invade forcibly with military the non-republic systems that allowed slavery?

You are expecting Jedi's to be good guys by ACTUALLY INVADING SOVEREIGN PLANETS BY MILITARY FORCE??????

Slave allowing planets like Tatoiine were NOT part of republic. Apart from diplomatically trying to get them abandon system and join the republic(this doesn't happen automatically snap of finger) only way Republic and Jedi could stop that would be to frigging invade every other planet. Start multiples of wars all over galaxy and forcefully impose their rule...

...ummmmmmm how is that supposed to make jedi good? Is republic supposed to be some sort of galactic police that goes "do it our way or we frigging nuke your people to death!"? Is THAT good?

 Matt Swain wrote:

Yeah, no. I really don't care if the writers put that in, it's no.

O.. K. Have fun with your head canon, then, I guess.

From a certain point of view, they already. Wasn't the galaxy until recently controlled by the most powerful psyker, the great Emperor?

And he maintained his power by killing or enslaving all other psykers he could get his hands on.

Heck, by 9 he's even on a crazy life support throne.

End dark imperium wars.

All jokes aside, Star Wars wouldn't ever get there because you have to get a strong formal force education to master all the weird magic stuff. Anakin was an untrained force user- he ended up a pretty good podracer. Without training, that would have been it for his abilities. Luke's manifested as a good pilot. Really, for the most part untrained force users have good intuition.

Now in the imperium, untrained psykers explode, tear open the warp, and have an alarming tendency to cause the destruction of the city or planet they are on. Naturally, your average citizen is far more concerned about the dangers of these living bombs in their midst.

I don't think the paragon applies. Force User are more similar to The Mule in the Foundation cycle, they're not alpha level psyker.

Meaning, Palpatine (like Hitler) killed billions (millions) of people, with mundane technology, social influence and resources. We know the Force was central in his actions, but everyone else don't.

A psyker can literally blow up a planet with his/her mind. It's drastically different.
If Palpatine levitate entire fleet in the original trilogy I think the Star Wars universe would have developed it's own flavour of the Inquisition.

Yes, no good for the SW galaxy has come from that "Damn fool religion. "

They....did, that’s what’s the Jedi Order was for. To identify and properly train force sensitives. To harness their powers for the benefit of all.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think the Star Wars universe would have developed it's own flavour of the Inquisition.

It did, used during the Empire to hunt down Jedi and force sensitives. Presumably the latter were to be inducted into the Inquisitions ranks though I am not sure if it ever did say.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I don't think the paragon applies. Force User are more similar to The Mule in the Foundation cycle, they're not alpha level psyker.

Meaning, Palpatine (like Hitler) killed billions (millions) of people, with mundane technology, social influence and resources. We know the Force was central in his actions, but everyone else don't.

A psyker can literally blow up a planet with his/her mind. It's drastically different.
If Palpatine levitate entire fleet in the original trilogy I think the Star Wars universe would have developed it's own flavour of the Inquisition.

Um, is there an example of any psyker in 40k being able to blow up a planet solo? I must not have read that.

Now sure a psyker can lead to a daemonic incursion over time, build a cult, let thru all sorts of warp nastiness up to greater daemons, but blowing up a planet solo?

Now palpatine could in the last movie overpower an entire armada of starships, and i'm not sure how many 40k psykers could do anything like that.

Palpatine could do that in the EU, too. That was the "explanation" for why the Empire was so quickly defeated at Endor once Anakin threw him down the stairs.

Sure Palpatine was a force user, but none of what he did actually required him to be one (bar resurrection, preumably?). The death star did not run on force energies. He did not start the clone wars with mind control. The force did not corrupt Analin, psychological manipulation did. When Palpatine stood and announced the formation of the Empire everyone cheered, not because he used force shenanigans but because of his mastery at political and social manipulation. If anything, force use was among the least of Palpatine's talents. This is what makes him such a great counterpart to Anakin/Vader in the first place.

Meanwhile, in 40k, a child hears some voices but nothing is done about it. Then suddenly daemons! Every living thing on the planet is dead within days. Weee bit of a difference there.

Technically they already do. In the Republic, Force Sensitives are essentially robbed of a normal life and forced to serve in a government approved manner. The only real difference is the government puts quite a bit of prestige on the position, so the public sees their "talented" kids as a good thing to be taken rather than something to fear.

Palpatine's power really pales compared to the potential of a psyker. The difference is that Palpatine had other skills, and as mentioned above they were actually more important than his force powers. He was a master politician and manipulator even without his powers, though he used those to enhance his already native abilities.

Force powers in general are a lot weaker than Psychic powers in Warhammer are. It takes considerable mental effort for them to do even simple things, like levitate objects, and even then they can only do it for limited amounts of time. The Force itself also seems to be sentient and might just say "nah, not today". Force users also generally seem to rarely develop their powers naturally. They have to be nurtured by someone who can already use the force, and without this training they would never even begin to be able to use the force other than passively.

Psykers on the other hand do absolutely happen spontaneously, and they will have the ability to do insane things with their powers right away. Most likely without much control over them of course, and the possibility of just ripping a hole in reality by accident. Training simply allows a psyker to learn to tone down their powers and use them in a controlled manner without being too strong.

Its sort of like a water faucet. Psykers start with the faucet on full blast, spewing water everywhere. Training allows them to turn the flow down and direct it where they want without splashing everywhere.

Force Users start with the water faucet barely leaking and they have to be trained to turn it on, but its rusted shut and takes a lot of effort to get it open.

In "heir to the empire' thrawn told an imperial captain that palpatine was using the force to influence the military on a large scale, sort of like a wide area but less obvious "there aren't the droids you're looking for" thing.

Also it explains why the empire pretty much imploded when palpy 'got the shaft', his mass effect low key influence was holding the military and government under his sway, he dies, suddenly the strings are cut. Thrawn said it was a consciously unnoticed subliminal affect but a very wide spread one.

Yeah yeah, i know HetE is not longer canon and there isn't a scale large enough to measure how much i don't care, it was a belter story than any other star wears story i've even seen.

Matt Swain wrote:Now palpatine could in the last movie overpower an entire armada of starships, and i'm not sure how many 40k psykers could do anything like that.

Palpatine overpowered an impressively sized large militia of civilian ships, derelicts, and military remnants. And ships in 40k make ships in Star Wars look like children's toys for the most part.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sure Palpatine was a force user, but none of what he did actually required him to be one (bar resurrection, preumably?). The death star did not run on force energies. He did not start the clone wars with mind control. The force did not corrupt Analin, psychological manipulation did. When Palpatine stood and announced the formation of the Empire everyone cheered, not because he used force shenanigans but because of his mastery at political and social manipulation. If anything, force use was among the least of Palpatine's talents. This is what makes him such a great counterpart to Anakin/Vader in the first place.

Meanwhile, in 40k, a child hears some voices but nothing is done about it. Then suddenly daemons! Every living thing on the planet is dead within days. Weee bit of a difference there.

^ This. Palpatine's success comes from his cult of personality. He didn't push the button on Alderaan, Tarkin gleefully did that, and by doing so ended up galvanizing the galaxy to tear down the Empire. Yes he was one hell of a force user, but had Anakin not intervened Mace would have killed him. Also all of Palp's non-political triumphs were achieved through technology, i.e. rebuilding Anakin's body, and making him Vader, the creation of 2 Death Stars, the cloning failsafe in case he died, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind, is force users are rare, even rarer now post sequel trilogy. Most people in the time of the Old Republic just thought of the Jedi as guys with swords that advised the senate and put out political fires. By the time of the OT they are wiped out, and laughed at as a dead religion full of nuts that tried to kill Palp, So even as others mentioned, it takes a lot of training and focus to do more than move a rock or have more than just a good 'feel' of things. So they don't stand out in the ways a 40K psyker would. With exception to force lightning, everything is seen as mundane to the average person in the Star Wars universe. Yes Vader can force choke someone, but the only people that know that are upper echelon Imperial officers that DEAL with him. So to the average layman, if Jedi pulled a ship of the sky, it's rationalized as mechanical failure on part of the ship, and not the robed guy waving his arms around.

 Matt Swain wrote:
...and were the jedi already doing it?

Ok first off someone will say i should have posted this in forum x instead of this one. Well, i posted here.

Secondly, in a thread on star wars movies in the GM forum, I bought up how in the abysmal (to a lot of people) sequel series it seems that basically it was a force user's galaxy and everyone else just existed to be ruled over by FUs ( ) or killed in wars they were behind.

If you look at the whole movie series except for rogue one, it was all about force users and they were basically decicing the fate of the galaxy among themselves. palpatine was responsible for every death in the first trilogy, the destruction of alderaan, etc. The only thing that temporarily stopped him were other FUs.

palpatine again was pretty much responsible for the the whole clone wars, and this time the 'good' FUs failed to stop him so slunk off into hiding to wait for the light side to send them a new champion.

And of course grand master FU palpatine was responsible for the destruction of like 5 inhabited planets in the sequel trilogy and again an entire armada of ships crewed by the 'muggles' were utterly helpless before his omnipotent force power, so only another FU could do anything that mattered.

Now in rogue one we had people who were generally not FUs mattering, but only in the sense that they set the stage for the new FU in town, luke, to destroy the deathstar. And, yes, non FU Han Solo played a part in clearing the way for luke to nuke the death star. Oh, and the cast or rogue one? All died, because muggle lives don't matter, except in how they set things up for the only people who matter, the FUs, to be the heroes.

Given that one FU caused the destruction of 6 planets and how many billions of deaths, shouldn't non FUs, you know, ordinary people, or 'muggles', be very very afraid of FUs and seek to control them in self defense? Kind of maybe a little like the imperium controls psykers in 40k?

Also if you follow the non movie material, and even the movies to a degree, were the jedi already doing this? I mean we saw the kids in the temple, and according to some of the background, jedi more or less hunted kids with force potential and more of less one way or another took them for jedi training, often in the kinda nicey way, telling the parents their child had great potential, had a destiny, etc. But if the parents resisted, well, the kids ended up in the jedi temple one way or another. Maybe it was the kenobi way (Your child has a destiny." "Our child has a destiny." ) or maybe it was simply taking them without the parent's consent.

But even if you do it the nicey way, taking a parents child from them against their will is still kidnapping.

And BTW, just how good were the jedi anyway? They protected a republic that allowed slavery for a thousand generations, according to chronic liar (Or alternate truth teller) obiwan kenobi. So for for a thousand generations they supported slavery. Hell, america condoned slavery in 1776 and officially (in theory at least) abolished in in 1865. Rounding up america realized slavery was a bad thing in 5 generations, the great old republic the jedi upheld didn't figure than out in 1,000 generations? uh, yeah. Not sure how great that old republic was, not that what replaced it didn't suck worse. it sucked so bad it needed a deathstar to keep it going.

So after the sequel series, wouldn't it make sense for the galaxy to start viewing FUs as possible mega threats that needed to be controlled in some way? Should they?

Sure, it would suck to be born a FU in that case, but ask the people of alderaan and the 5, no 6,I just remembered that one in TROS, planets that got graveled in the sequel trilogy about whether or not FUs are a threat on a galactic scale that should be controlled.

Maybe they don't need to go as bad as the imperium does with inquisitors, black ships, etc, but if i were living in the post TROS star wars galaxy i think i'd be wanting some protection against FUs. I certainly wouldn;t want one as powerful as good ol' palpy to be allowed to take over again.

Ohh look Karen Travis is posting on Dakkadakka!

 Matt Swain wrote:
In "heir to the empire' thrawn told an imperial captain that palpatine was using the force to influence the military on a large scale, sort of like a wide area but less obvious "there aren't the droids you're looking for" thing.

Also it explains why the empire pretty much imploded when palpy 'got the shaft', his mass effect low key influence was holding the military and government under his sway, he dies, suddenly the strings are cut. Thrawn said it was a consciously unnoticed subliminal affect but a very wide spread one.

Yeah yeah, i know HetE is not longer canon and there isn't a scale large enough to measure how much i don't care, it was a belter story than any other star wears story i've even seen.

See also Bastila's battle meditation in KOTOR...

HttE was so much better than Eps 7-9 it isn't even funny. Should have just filmed that. Such a wasted opportunity.

Given that one FU caused the destruction of 6 planets and how many billions of deaths, shouldn't non FUs, you know, ordinary people, or 'muggles', be very very afraid of FUs and seek to control them in self defense? Kind of maybe a little like the imperium controls psykers in 40k?

That's completely unnecessary. The Imperium Controls (afaik) Pykers due to how dangerous they are (age of strife, demon possession something along those lines). Even ignoring that there the entire jedi order who pretty much attempt to help force user and their families.