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Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




I looked it up. Wraithbone is 100% warp matter. And all of the Eldar weaponry are made of Wraithbone and powered psychically (aka warp energy). In other words, 100% of Eldar weaponry and energy is from the warp exclusively. They use nothing from real space.

We have Tyranids nomming entire infinity circuits. We have Tyranids nomming creatures for genetic data exclusively. We have Tyranids spawned from space marine data. And Zoanthropes are Tyranids spawned from Eldar data.

So why aren't the Tyranids using Zoanthropes to create wraithbone constructs and pilot them with living organisms specifically designed to pilot them? There is no conflict in biomass. All biomass goes to tyranid troops, and they make infinite wraithbone constructs for free because the warp is infinite and accessible anywhere and everywhere.

edit: by "pilot" i mean a tyranid "soul stone". A soul powers the wraithbone construct psychically. So have a specially made tyranid brain power the wraithbone psychically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 03:10:26


 
   
Made in us
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Upstate, New York

No idea where the fluff stands on this, but my first thought is that there is probably some bad interactions between the shadow of the warp that nids generate and wraithbone. Not like “instant disintegration” level but probably slow corrosion/decay.

   
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Mexico

The Eldar do not flood the galaxy with an endless waves of Wraithbone constructs, so one has to assume there are logistical limitations.

Never assume something is infinite and free.
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Probably more calorifically efficient and faster to just spawn a big bug with a brain that you can make like 3 of instead of a single wraithbone thing that requires a pilot with a brain too. Keep the warp gubbins as hive mind memory stuff and then move on. As for the bit about wraithbone being made of warp energy, and thus an infinite resource... I'm pretty sure that's not how it works for the Eldar, so why would it work differently for tyranids?

I feel like this question really overlooks a fundamental aspect of the core character of how tyranids work - namely that they aren't human.
Recycling wraithbone as a problem solving thing is quite a good idea in and of itself, but it's a very human way of looking at things.

The hivemind is much less objective-driven, and is much more animalistic and incomprehensible by design. It's much more fun, imo, for it to be utterly incomprehensible to us, and to characters in the setting. Tyranid organisms have extremely fast adaptive evolutionary cycles, and it's probably just easier and more effective at capturing biomass to simply churn out a wave of big gribblies than it is to bioengineer something fantastically large and complex (bearing in mind that the Eldar, a very psyker-heavy race, need several specialized psyker subclasses dedicated to the creation, deployment and maintenance of wraith constructs, and that's really based only on what GW has shown us on the tabletop). On top of that, typically after battles, don't the tyranids re-digest their battlefield units? Most of them aren't born with a digestive system, because they aren't meant to be around for a long time. If you're building wraithbone mechs, then just eating them again after the fight, I feel like again, you're wasting the precious calories that the Hivefleets rely on to survive.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fun idea, and I'd love to see some geiger-esque nids in cockpits piloting big dumb nids as a model. It sounds cool as heck. I wouldn't necessarily rule it out fluffwise, either, as of course the 40k universe is fantastically large, and you're encouraged to use your imagination and really make your own dudes, but...

...I just doesn't make a ton of sense, based off of how the Tyranid species works. Their schtick is being able to muster and deploy huge numbers of bugs, extremely fast, because of how they can digest and re-use biomass. Sure, there are a few adaptive niches within that, but creating an elaborate wraithbone thing and then getting pilots into it...just sounds a bit of a faff when you could be using that time drowning your enemies in bodies and reclaiming their delicious squishy bits. And anyway! Wraithbone is the craftworlders thing, man, why would you want to dilute that?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 02:32:17


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




 Tyran wrote:
The Eldar do not flood the galaxy with an endless waves of Wraithbone constructs, so one has to assume there are logistical limitations.

Never assume something is infinite and free.


The logistical limitation is souls. Wraithbones are animated and powered by souls in soulstones exclusively. I think. Are Eldar tanks powered by soul stones as well?

Anyways, Tyranids have infinite souls.

 posermcbogus wrote:
...I just doesn't make a ton of sense, based off of how the Tyranid species works. Their schtick is being able to muster and deploy huge numbers of bugs, extremely fast, because of how they can digest and re-use biomass. Sure, there are a few adaptive niches within that, but creating an elaborate wraithbone thing and then getting pilots into it...just sounds a bit of a faff when you could be using that time drowning your enemies in bodies and reclaiming their delicious squishy bits. And anyway! Wraithbone is the craftworlders thing, man, why would you want to dilute that?


Their shtick is also
1. Copy their enemies. Tyrant Guard and Zoanthrope is an explicit attempt to copy their enemies.
2. Performing experiments. The Doom of Malantai is an experimental Tyranid. I know there are other experimental Tyranids.

***Spoilers for Ghost warrior***
The Patriarch of Zaisuthra became an Avatar of Khaine.
***End Spoilers***

So... yeah. "Dilution" is not a concern at all.
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I mean, the Patriarch is like a clear part of tyranids and eldar interbreeding, it's not really a dilution of anything because that's how genestealer cults have always worked.

Again, none of those two things you bring up really explains why we might see tyranids abandon their conventional ways of getting biomass to build big wraithbone mecha suits. You've very conveniently ignored a few of my points here. Tyrant Guards and zoanthropes as organisms fill a gap in the predation process, and are (comparatively) much simpler to spawn than taking the time and psyker energy to construct and maintain and then reclaim wraithbone. I don't want to rain on your parade, like if you want these to be a thing for your army or headcannon, go for it dude, but I think these aren't as estabilished patterns of behavior as you're asserting they are. Again, tyranids, infinite souls? Where is this coming from, other than hypotheticals?

I also, again, don't think you're appropriately thinking of how the tyranids interact with the universe. The Doom of Malantai isn't really an experiment, because I don't think the 'nids would even fathom what an experiment is. It's much more accurate to think of it as an unusual lifeform from the hivemind in the process of filling an particular evolutionary niche.
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Yeaaaah I'm gonna call on that whole Nids have souls thing. At most the Hive Mind has something that might be similar that is in turn spread throughout the greater swarm but each individual Ripper having a soul? Nah.
Also OP, are you getting all your info from Lexicanum or the Tyranid Codex? Because the stuff about Nids using Astartes and Aeldari DNA is in the Lex articles and is sourced from stuff from 3rd Ed, i.e. very old background.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 03:52:46


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




 posermcbogus wrote:
I mean, the Patriarch is like a clear part of tyranids and eldar interbreeding, it's not really a dilution of anything because that's how genestealer cults have always worked.

Again, none of those two things you bring up really explains why we might see tyranids abandon their conventional ways of getting biomass to build big wraithbone mecha suits. You've very conveniently ignored a few of my points here. Tyrant Guards and zoanthropes as organisms fill a gap in the predation process, and are (comparatively) much simpler to spawn than taking the time and psyker energy to construct and maintain and then reclaim wraithbone. I don't want to rain on your parade, like if you want these to be a thing for your army or headcannon, go for it dude, but I think these aren't as estabilished patterns of behavior as you're asserting they are. Again, tyranids, infinite souls? Where is this coming from, other than hypotheticals?


It's not "abandon", it's "in addition to". The cost of the wraithbone stuff is either a handful of zoanthropes, or genestealer bonesingers. So just by allocating 0.000000001% of their biomass they could create supplemental wraithbone units. For whatever reason. And the basis is the voidbrood. Genestealer Cultists who are actually still alive post contact with the Hive Fleet and continually serve the Tyranids.

And it's not "headcanon". I'm just asking a question out of curiosity. They don't, and my question is why? I'm not even arguing for anything. Everything you said is refutable with existing lore and I'm just pointing that out.

 posermcbogus wrote:
I also, again, don't think you're appropriately thinking of how the tyranids interact with the universe. The Doom of Malantai isn't really an experiment, because I don't think the 'nids would even fathom what an experiment is. It's much more accurate to think of it as an unusual lifeform from the hivemind in the process of filling an particular evolutionary niche.


You're really gonna make me dig up other experiments aren't you.

Old One Eye - Later carnifexes copy his stuff
Deathleaper - Later lictors copy his stuff
Parasite of Mortrex - literally a unique tyranid.

 Gert wrote:
Yeaaaah I'm gonna call on that whole Nids have souls thing. At most the Hive Mind has something that might be similar that is in turn spread throughout the greater swarm but each individual Ripper having a soul? Nah.


If it can be enslaved by an enslaver it has a soul. The definition of a soul in wh40k is having a psychic signature. And for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters whether psychic energy comes from a soulstone or a brain.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 03:54:40


 
   
Made in gb
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roboemperor wrote:

If it can be enslaved by an enslaver it has a soul. The definition of a soul in wh40k is having a psychic signature. And for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters whether psychic energy comes from a soulstone or a brain.

1 - You got a source for Nids being controlled by Enslavers? Do you have a source for Nids having souls?
2 - It very much matters because Tyranids draw their power from the Hive Mind, not the Warp. The Hive Mind actively repels/blocks out the Warp in realspace.
   
Made in us
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 Gert wrote:
1 - You got a source for Nids being controlled by Enslavers? Do you have a source for Nids having souls?
2 - It very much matters because Tyranids draw their power from the Hive Mind, not the Warp. The Hive Mind actively repels/blocks out the Warp in realspace.


1. Gladius. Tyranid units can be enslaved by enslavers.
2. The hive mind is a pure warp entity and blocks the warp out by simply DDoSing the area with psyhic communication.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_Mind
"It is a nearly omniscient entity composed of pure psychic energy that originated outside of the Milky Way Galaxy.
,,,
The Hive Mind also has the ability to block interstellar communications and travel through the Warp due to the potent psychic presence it creates in the Immaterium, essentially disrupting the normal flow of psychic energy within the Immaterium in much the same way as a Warp Storm. "

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 04:06:07


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






You're taking a game mechanic and calling it canon background. Jesus wept.

Also, you're taking info from wiki articles that use many sources, often contradicting ones, to write the articles. Have you got the Tyranid Codex where you can support your claims with actual quotes from the latest publication?
   
Made in us
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 Gert wrote:
You're taking a game mechanic and calling it canon background. Jesus wept.

Also, you're taking info from wiki articles that use many sources, often contradicting ones, to write the articles. Have you got the Tyranid Codex where you can support your claims with actual quotes from the latest publication?


"You do all the work. Show me stuff. No the stuff you showed me are unreliable because I say so. Now show me more other stuff. You can't because latest codices don't address or mention the topic at all? Ha ha I win. I'm right and you're wrong."

Yeah... I'm gonna stop talking to you.
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






roboemperor wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:
I mean, the Patriarch is like a clear part of tyranids and eldar interbreeding, it's not really a dilution of anything because that's how genestealer cults have always worked.

Again, none of those two things you bring up really explains why we might see tyranids abandon their conventional ways of getting biomass to build big wraithbone mecha suits. You've very conveniently ignored a few of my points here. Tyrant Guards and zoanthropes as organisms fill a gap in the predation process, and are (comparatively) much simpler to spawn than taking the time and psyker energy to construct and maintain and then reclaim wraithbone. I don't want to rain on your parade, like if you want these to be a thing for your army or headcannon, go for it dude, but I think these aren't as estabilished patterns of behavior as you're asserting they are. Again, tyranids, infinite souls? Where is this coming from, other than hypotheticals?


It's not "abandon", it's "in addition to". The cost of the wraithbone stuff is either a handful of zoanthropes, or genestealer bonesingers.


We don't know that. We know it isn't the case for the only other race who uses them - again, this cannibalizes a really significant part of character design, on top of having no precedent. And it really is an abandonment, when you think about it hard. Tyranids don't field support engineers, they don't have R&D departments. Their whole thing is, as I said, eat stuff, use calories as efficiently as possible, move on, adapt, survive. What you're proposing is like, stop, reverse-engineer and then magically pull extra souls out of somewhere unspecific.

roboemperor wrote:
And the basis is the voidbrood. Genestealer Cultists who are actually still alive post contact with the Hive Fleet and continually serve the Tyranids.


Okay, but even in that case, nearly all cultists get eaten, because they're more valuable that way. You're really stretching the lore here, for someone who claims to be able to refute everything I've said so far. The organisms you're talking about here are just symbiotes, and have nothing to do with tyranids being able to effectively mass produce wraithbone to a more predation efficient effect than just mass spawning gribblies. To do so fundamentally changes the nature of the Tyranid species in-universe, and, from a creative standpoint, just cannibalizes one of the distinctive niches of the Eldar, which tbh sounds much less interesting that tyranids using bio-titans or the like.

roboemperor wrote:
I'm just asking a question out of curiosity. They don't, and my question is why? I'm not even arguing for anything. Everything you said is refutable with existing lore and I'm just pointing that out.


Like, I've given you my answer? If you aren't arguing for it, why are you... arguing with me? Like, you want a real hard answer go email GW I guess dude, my answers are literally as speculative as yours. Asking a random forum these hypotheticals won't get you a iron-clad answer, because none of us are currently on GWs creative team.
As for refutations? Man, I'm heard that distinctive high pitched whistle that a goalpoast makes when it whizzes past your ear from in front at tremendously high speeds, but so far you've offered... some extremely rare examples of remarkable lore, and then also two units that are entirely unlike tyranids building wraithbone mechs, but they were things that didn't exist before, something that I was never arguing against in the first place.

Why do you think somewho wraithbone mechas would be more energy-efficient than just bioforms? Why do you think that the tyranids would slow their predatory strategy down to construct and reclaim wraithbone mecha? How are you seeing this enriching the universe? Because I can't see it my man.

roboemperor wrote:


Old One Eye - Later carnifexes copy his stuff
Deathleaper - Later lictors copy his stuff
Parasite of Mortrex - literally a unique tyranid.



Unique doesn't mean experimental. Again, wheeling round to my point that you're anthropomorphizing the tyranids too much. They don't think like that, they barely have brainwaves that register like our thoughts at all.
If anything else, this just illustrates my point about tyranid evolutionary cycles being so fast that something that requires constructing, with a significant amount of energy (see how I'm going back to the calories thing? It's because it's important), is probably not worth the time to them, when they can just sling adaptations at prey based off of how easy or not it was to eat them.

roboemperor wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeaaaah I'm gonna call on that whole Nids have souls thing. At most the Hive Mind has something that might be similar that is in turn spread throughout the greater swarm but each individual Ripper having a soul? Nah.


If it can be enslaved by an enslaver it has a soul. The definition of a soul in wh40k is having a psychic signature. And for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters whether psychic energy comes from a soulstone or a brain.


Yeah, I'm with Gert here, I'm pretty sure it's the hivemind as like a psychic field shared across organisms that generates warp presence, and they don't really have souls as individuals.
But even if they do then how do they make infinite souls? Like, you're filling in a lot of gaps for yourself and like I said, there's nothing wrong with headcannon, but I don't think you know the answers as well as you're saying you do here, friend.
   
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In My Lab

I wouldn't use game mechanics (especially not third-party game mechanics) as a fluff source.

I mean, many Marines went traitor in search of power... But currently, a Tactical Marine is significantly stronger than a basic CSM, notably by having twice the wound count.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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roboemperor wrote:
 Gert wrote:
You're taking a game mechanic and calling it canon background. Jesus wept.

Also, you're taking info from wiki articles that use many sources, often contradicting ones, to write the articles. Have you got the Tyranid Codex where you can support your claims with actual quotes from the latest publication?


"You do all the work. Show me stuff. No the stuff you showed me are unreliable because I say so. Now show me more other stuff. You can't because latest codices don't address or mention the topic at all? Ha ha I win. I'm right and you're wrong."

Yeah... I'm gonna stop talking to you.


I believe that's the burden of evidence my guy. They don't call it a burden just to make it sound cool.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






roboemperor wrote:


"You do all the work. Show me stuff. No the stuff you showed me are unreliable because I say so. Now show me more other stuff. You can't because latest codices don't address or mention the topic at all? Ha ha I win. I'm right and you're wrong."

Yeah... I'm gonna stop talking to you.

They're... your points.... you are literally supposed to prove their validity and you can't even do that.
Do you not understand how discussions work or how you have to prove your arguments are sound?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 04:23:52


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




 posermcbogus wrote:
We don't know that. We know it isn't the case for the only other race who uses them - again, this cannibalizes a really significant part of character design, on top of having no precedent. And it really is an abandonment, when you think about it hard. Tyranids don't field support engineers, they don't have R&D departments. Their whole thing is, as I said, eat stuff, use calories as efficiently as possible, move on, adapt, survive. What you're proposing is like, stop, reverse-engineer and then magically pull extra souls out of somewhere unspecific.


They do reverse engineer most definitely. Biologically at least.

In Gladius the Tyranids trapped on Gladius and Hive Fleet Tiamet communicate, and then create a specialized Zoanthrope that's designed to literally disintegrate the entire planet. You can't do that unless you are fully capable of analyzing an entire planet's... structure? warp structure? Whatever. They fully analyzed the sentient planet, found an exploitable weakness, and disintegrated it wholly without any concern for biomass digestion.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Okay, but even in that case, nearly all cultists get eaten, because they're more valuable that way. You're really stretching the lore here, for someone who claims to be able to refute everything I've said so far. The organisms you're talking about here are just symbiotes, and have nothing to do with tyranids being able to effectively mass produce wraithbone to a more predation efficient effect than just mass spawning gribblies. To do so fundamentally changes the nature of the Tyranid species in-universe, and, from a creative standpoint, just cannibalizes one of the distinctive niches of the Eldar, which tbh sounds much less interesting that tyranids using bio-titans or the like.


You've been arguing "makes xxx less unique as a faction". That's not a lore argument, that's a meta argument. Another meta argument is "authors haven't really thought about it".

I'm here asking is there an in-lore explanation for not making wraithbone constructs.

A similar question might be, why aren't Tyranids making Titans and piloting them with gaunts? I've actually asked something similar before and the answer was because Tyranids view metal stuff as inferior, or its an efficiency thing. They're out to consume biomass because it's faster and the imperium is an all-you-can-eat buffet and there's no reason to slow down and waste time trying to use indigestible metal for anything.

But wraithbone is a different story because it can be created while the Tyranids are en route to somewhere. So isntead of doing nothing for centuries of void space travel, they could be supplementing their army with warp materials which were previously unable to utilize. And you saying "Because Tyranids are bugs, and wraithbones aren't bug-like", it's not an in-lore explantion. It's a meta explanation. Which I know it's true but I'm curious to see if there is an in-lore explanation.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Like, I've given you my answer? If you aren't arguing for it, why are you... arguing with me? Like, you want a real hard answer go email GW I guess dude, my answers are literally as speculative as yours. Asking a random forum these hypotheticals won't get you a iron-clad answer, because none of us are currently on GWs creative team.


For fun. If you don't find it fun and only frustrating, then ok. Call it quits here. I'm gonna stick to see if there is someone who likes talking about this kind of thing for fun that can join in.

 posermcbogus wrote:
As for refutations? Man, I'm heard that distinctive high pitched whistle that a goalpoast makes when it whizzes past your ear from in front at tremendously high speeds, but so far you've offered... some extremely rare examples of remarkable lore, and then also two units that are entirely unlike tyranids building wraithbone mechs, but they were things that didn't exist before, something that I was never arguing against in the first place.


Those extremely rare examples of remarkable lore says its possible. Therefore your claim of impossibility is refuted. Tyranids are that smart, cunning, and intelligent and don't behave like mindless bugs. I am 100% sure one of the tyranids codices explicitly say that Imperium thought any form of tyranid intelligence was just coincidence and not calculated planning, and that they were very wrong.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Why do you think somewho wraithbone mechas would be more energy-efficient than just bioforms? Why do you think that the tyranids would slow their predatory strategy down to construct and reclaim wraithbone mecha? How are you seeing this enriching the universe? Because I can't see it my man.


Energy efficient? Tyranids cannot coexist with energy efficient. They'd burn 100% of their existing biomass just to digest the new biomass. No, 100% of their energy is from the warp. Biomass is solely for matter and 0% of it is burned for energy.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Unique doesn't mean experimental. Again, wheeling round to my point that you're anthropomorphizing the tyranids too much. They don't think like that, they barely have brainwaves that register like our thoughts at all.
If anything else, this just illustrates my point about tyranid evolutionary cycles being so fast that something that requires constructing, with a significant amount of energy (see how I'm going back to the calories thing? It's because it's important), is probably not worth the time to them, when they can just sling adaptations at prey based off of how easy or not it was to eat them.


Yeah I know you're wrong here. I can't hunt it down atm but the hive mind is explicitly said to be insanely intelligent. And the imperium was wrong to think that they were just feral beasts portraying the illusion of intelligence by coincidence.

 posermcbogus wrote:
But even if they do then how do they make infinite souls? Like, you're filling in a lot of gaps for yourself and like I said, there's nothing wrong with headcannon, but I don't think you know the answers as well as you're saying you do here, friend.


The "souls" only provide psychic energy. What difference does it make if its a soulstone or a zoanthrope?

-----------------------

 JNAProductions wrote:
I wouldn't use game mechanics (especially not third-party game mechanics) as a fluff source.

I mean, many Marines went traitor in search of power... But currently, a Tactical Marine is significantly stronger than a basic CSM, notably by having twice the wound count.


Gladius is heavily micro managed by GW themselves. Gladius dev team had to delay the Eldar DLC by a few weeks because GW was slow at approving the DLC's artwork. That's right, artwork. Also the unit stats are based on the tabletop stats and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Necrons can't get enslaved by enslavers. So that part is accurate.

--------------------------
 posermcbogus wrote:
I believe that's the burden of evidence my guy. They don't call it a burden just to make it sound cool.

Burden of proof? What exactly am I proving here?

Elda creates and animates wraithbone constructs solely with psychic energy.
Tyranids have weaponized psyker strains.
Tyranids fully utilize Eldar DNA.
Put all this together, I ask a question, why aren't Tyranids using wraithbone stuff?

What exactly am I proving here? All I do is provided you with lore that refutes your claims. Give me a real reason why Tyranids can't use wraithbone stuff otherwise I will continue asking why why why why why. Wraithbone decaying due to the shadow of the warp is one such example provided by the 1st poster that would satisfy me but he can't provide any source of that and it's the first time I'm hearing about it so I'm waiting for someone else to confirm his claim.

You on the other hand. There's tons of remarkable lore that says your claims are wrong.
If you want to continue to say that Tyranids are mindless braindead creatures incapable of experimentation when even the Norn-Queen lore directly contradicts it, fine.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Norn-Queen
"Once a type of bio-form has been engineered to meet a purpose determined by the Norn-Queen, more bio-forms of the same type can be cloned by all the other Norn-Queens of a given Hive Fleet. The Norn-Queens are capable of bringing forth new Tyranid bio-forms in a variety of different ways, each designed to ensure maximum reproductive efficiency."

New bioform engineered for a specific purpose and then cloned is not "experiment"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 04:51:24


 
   
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roboemperor wrote:
They fully analyzed the sentient planet, found an exploitable weakness, and disintegrated it wholly without any concern for biomass digestion.

not what reverse-engineering is.

roboemperor wrote:

You've been arguing "makes xxx less unique as a faction". That's not a lore argument, that's a meta argument. Another meta argument is "authors haven't really thought about it".


You're right, it's not. Because this is a hypothetical question about substantial changes to how tyranids operate, and I can't fathom for the life of me why you're fighting so hard to die on this hill over my first post if it rustled your jimmies this hard. I even said if you want to believe it it's cool. But this is not something any author has addressed as far as I know in the lore, and we probably would know if it had, and so your suggestion is about as lore-relevant as "yeah but what if Eldar could make their own space marines, they'd be miles better, yeah?" - like, sure, but how does it enrich the lore? Shallow, unfounded changes are only that.

roboemperor wrote:

Those extremely rare examples of remarkable lore says its possible. Therefore your claim of impossibility is refuted. Tyranids are that smart, cunning, and intelligent and don't behave like mindless bugs. I am 100% sure one of the tyranids codices explicitly say that Imperium thought any form of tyranid intelligence was just coincidence and not calculated planning, and that they were very wrong...

...Yeah I know you're wrong here. I can't hunt it down atm but the hive mind is explicitly said to be insanely intelligent. And the imperium was wrong to think that they were just feral beasts portraying the illusion of intelligence by coincidence....
...If you want to continue to say that Tyranids are mindless braindead creatures incapable of experimentation when even the Norn-Queen lore directly contradicts it, fine.


Quote where I said Tyranids are stupid.

roboemperor wrote:

No, 100% of their energy is from the warp.

News to me, you got a source for that?

roboemperor wrote:
The "souls" only provide psychic energy. What difference does it make if its a soulstone or a zoanthrope?


And the goalposts get moved yet again. First it was infinite souls now it's this? Come off it.

roboemperor wrote:

Burden of proof? What exactly am I proving here?

The bit about souls. You know, the one Gert was referring to. Where were you going with the souls bit?

roboemperor wrote:

Elda creates and animates wraithbone constructs solely with psychic energy.
Tyranids have weaponized psyker strains.
Tyranids fully utilize Eldar DNA.
Put all this together, I ask a question, why aren't Tyranids using wraithbone stuff?
...
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Norn-Queen
"Once a type of bio-form has been engineered to meet a purpose determined by the Norn-Queen, more bio-forms of the same type can be cloned by all the other Norn-Queens of a given Hive Fleet. The Norn-Queens are capable of bringing forth new Tyranid bio-forms in a variety of different ways, each designed to ensure maximum reproductive efficiency."

New bioform engineered for a specific purpose and then cloned is not "experiment"?


My whole point is that I think you're trying to hard to equate how you understand the universe, and how tyranids in-lore understand the universe. Some neckbeard with a thesaurus on the fandom page trying to describe how tyranids adapt and evolve absolutely does not equate to "tyranids are also totally capable of advanced psychic-mechanical engineering, and could totally build a bone mecha", they aren't even in the same ballpark. Like I've said before, you're stretching this stuff sooooooo thin, to the point where you've accidentally included how the prime focus of such adaptations is maximum reproductive efficiency, something I raised when I was talking about how Tyranids die and are re-consumed after attacks. (nice sidestep by the way, engaging only specific points? excellent strategy, next am I in for some ad hominems?)
"Eldar can do X so why can't tyranids also do X?" fundamentally boils down to "the authors didn't want them to be the same". The macrocosym of both species isn't even faintly alike, why would the Craftworld Eldar strategy to solve their manpower crisis while also saving their souls from being swallowed by the chaos god they accidentally created have any baring on an animalistic hivemind's objective of feeding? There's so little crossover here, and you asserting that it's not only perfectly logical, but also totally supported by... erm, well.. hive guard are a thing, and this one time there was an Eldar genestealer cult and, errm, b-b-but they totally engineer things, and one time they figured out how to destroy a whole planet, I swear...
Not buying it. This thread is already pretty tired.

roboemperor wrote:

For fun. If you don't find it fun and only frustrating, then ok. Call it quits here. I'm gonna stick to see if there is someone who likes talking about this kind of thing for fun that can join in.


I came into this thread for fun. I gave you an answer for fun. You immediately argued past my points, threw up a bunch of half-finished strawmen to try and claim that I was wrong, and were just straight rude a couple of times. Like, if you don't like what I have to say just ignore it dude, but nothing you have said is compelling so far. In fact, the least compelling thing is that you've just conceived this idea, and seem to believe it's totally bullet proof. You clearly aren't here for a discussion, you're trying really hard to try to windmill dunk on people who are just trying to chat about this theory of yours.

You're filling in some very substantial gaps with your imagination at this point, and like, tbh I'm tired of it.
I'm out dude. Enjoy your thread, I sure hope no one comes in and disagrees with you again because you've shown yourself unable to take it like an adult and not get really irate.
If you're gonna do that thing, like before when you went like depleted-uranium-tipped fanboy for the Necrons because you had heard some lore tidbits about them and decided to fill in a few blanks in your head and came to the conclusion that they were simply invincible, had no material or energy limitations and were the bestest cool boys, but for Tyranids I'm fething not even close to willing to indulge in your power fantasies dude. I gave you my two cents, this isn't some great clash of wits, this isn't something where either of us is right and maybe you should check yourself because you've been really dismissive to everyone who hasn't told you what you want to hear.

roboemperor wrote:
friendship ended with Necrons, now Tyranids is my unlimited power fantasy
   
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 posermcbogus wrote:
News to me, you got a source for that?


I'm paraphrasing here:
Tyranids win wars of attrition because after the fight they consume both their own fallen and the enemies. So they lose no biomass. After every encounter its only a gain and never a loss.

And the laws of physics.

There's also a quote of Tyranids eating minerals for the microscopic organisms on them.

Kronos also says the shadow of the warp steals energy from psykers. Emphasis on energy.

Now if you have a conflicting source then I'm all ears. But there is not a chance in hell that the Tyranids can do what they do such as spend energy on eating microscopic organisms and profit in biomass if they burn biomass for energy.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Quote where I said Tyranids are stupid.
 posermcbogus wrote:
Unique doesn't mean experimental. Again, wheeling round to my point that you're anthropomorphizing the tyranids too much. They don't think like that, they barely have brainwaves that register like our thoughts at all.


See, you're going out of your way to say Tyranids don't experiment. Here is a direct quote from norn queens that say otherwise
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Norn-Queen
"Although they are sentient beings unlike so many of the other Tyranid bio-forms, they spend their entire lives psychically arguing through the Hive Mind with their "sisters" about how the next swarm of Tyranids could be better adapted to the species' needs.".

So talking to other Norn Queens and discussing what new bioforms to make is "not thinking like that" or "barely have brainwaves that register like our thoughts at all"?

 posermcbogus wrote:
And the goalposts get moved yet again. First it was infinite souls now it's this? Come off it.


Read the first post.
roboemperor wrote:
edit: by "pilot" i mean a tyranid "soul stone". A soul powers the wraithbone construct psychically. So have a specially made tyranid brain power the wraithbone psychically.

And before you accuse me of editing that in after the fact check the time stamp, and here's post #7
roboemperor wrote:
If it can be enslaved by an enslaver it has a soul. The definition of a soul in wh40k is having a psychic signature. And for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters whether psychic energy comes from a soulstone or a brain.


I've been saying from the start that there is no point to the "soul" discussion because it doesn't matter. Tyranid brain instead of a soulstone.

Also, there is not a chance in hell that Tyranids can create soulstones. So from the get go I've been saying a specifically bred psychic Tyranid Brain to pilot the Wraithbone construct.

So instead of accusing me of moving goalposts, why don't you be more thorough?

 posermcbogus wrote:
The bit about souls. You know, the one Gert was referring to. Where were you going with the souls bit?


There's also a Hive Ship that was corrupted by Chaos and is now being used as a Titan transport. Not that this discussion has any significance at all.

 posermcbogus wrote:
My whole point is that I think you're trying to hard to equate how you understand the universe, and how tyranids in-lore understand the universe. Some neckbeard with a thesaurus on the fandom page trying to describe how tyranids adapt and evolve absolutely does not equate to "tyranids are also totally capable of advanced psychic-mechanical engineering, and could totally build a bone mecha", they aren't even in the same ballpark. Like I've said before, you're stretching this stuff sooooooo thin, to the point where you've accidentally included how the prime focus of such adaptations is maximum reproductive efficiency, something I raised when I was talking about how Tyranids die and are re-consumed after attacks. (nice sidestep by the way, engaging only specific points? excellent strategy, next am I in for some ad hominems?)


So we got norn-queens discussing with each other to engineer new bioforms.

Wraithbone construction is so simple every eldar does it but only specialists can weaponize it.

Apparently Zoanthropes from hive fleet Kraken are mending the great rift. That's right. Tyranids are closing the great rift. They can create zoanthropes that can close the eye of terror. I am looking for the exact location of this source atm but several posts on the internet says the same thing. Kronos is killing Chaos and closing the rift by leaving Zoanthropes behind.

So I am completely out of my mind thinking that the hyper intelligent Tyranids might want to supplement their biomass with psyker materials?

 posermcbogus wrote:
I came into this thread for fun. I gave you an answer for fun. You immediately argued past my points, threw up a bunch of half-finished strawmen to try and claim that I was wrong, and were just straight rude a couple of times. Like, if you don't like what I have to say just ignore it dude, but nothing you have said is compelling so far. In fact, the least compelling thing is that you've just conceived this idea, and seem to believe it's totally bullet proof. You clearly aren't here for a discussion, you're trying really hard to try to windmill dunk on people who are just trying to chat about this theory of yours.

You're filling in some very substantial gaps with your imagination at this point, and like, tbh I'm tired of it.
I'm out dude. Enjoy your thread, I sure hope no one comes in and disagrees with you again because you've shown yourself unable to take it like an adult and not get really irate.
If you're gonna do that thing, like before when you went like depleted-uranium-tipped fanboy for the Necrons because you had heard some lore tidbits about them and decided to fill in a few blanks in your head and came to the conclusion that they were simply invincible, had no material or energy limitations and were the bestest cool boys, but for Tyranids I'm fething not even close to willing to indulge in your power fantasies dude. I gave you my two cents, this isn't some great clash of wits, this isn't something where either of us is right and maybe you should check yourself because you've been really dismissive to everyone who hasn't told you what you want to hear.


Holy **** man.

First you skim my posts, cherry pick my answers.

Then you get everything wrong. Literally everything. 100% of the things you said is proven wrong with me just copy and pasting quotes from various sources. All I did was copy and paste various quotes from various sources, no reasoning on my part, and it completely shattered everything you said.

Then instead of admitting your error you get all defensive. Unique Tyranids that are later incorporated into existing strains is not the Tyranids experimenting? Norn Queens are not the r&d department of Tyranids? Accuse the wiki of being written by some neckbeard? And then accuse me of moving goalposts? And accuse me of arguing in bad faith to keep my "head canon" alive? Tell me, what is my "head canon" here?

And then you dig up a super old quote I posted several years ago? Are you ****ing serious? You're going through my entire post history just to grab one quote I made when I started reading wh40k and was trying to decide on a faction?

Look man, sorry for shattering your head canon of tyranids, but this draws the line. Please follow up on your threat and stop posting. I'm gonna go talk with someone who actually provides sources for his arguments. Anyone paying attention to our "conversation" would notice that you have provided absolutely jack gak for sources.

Holy **** man.

edit:
 posermcbogus wrote:
like if you want these to be a thing for your army or headcannon, go for it dude,

Yeah, this should've been my red flag. You're accusing me of trying to force a "headcanon" when I am just asking a question and waiting for an answer that isn't immediately disproven with 1 quote. Like wtf have I been even arguing in this thread other than copy pasting official lore?

Seriously, follow up on your threat and stop posting instead of reading my entire post history and hunting down more quotes from me several years ago.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 08:01:10


 
   
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Really this all boils down to exactly how sentient the Hive Mind is.

Broadly, it’s presented as being instinct run wild, rather than actively intelligent. Though I guess there’s a pretty serious question of when does the former become the latter, but that’s one for the philosophers and scientists. Certainly well above my own pay grade.

We then need to consider whether they have any particular need for Wraithbone’s specific properties.

It acts as if it’s organic, but needs a psychic mind (ideally a disciplined one capable of introspection) to shape it. Whereas the Hive Mind can already produce super dense chitin, without needing a specialist being to shape and repair it, as said super dense chitin is inherently self-repairing over time.

The Hive Mind is ultimately interested in sustainability, and making the most of the various resources at its disposal. Given Wraithbone is known to be difficult to work with, it may simply not be worth its effort, when it can achieve pretty much identical results with less effort.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Really this all boils down to exactly how sentient the Hive Mind is.

Broadly, it’s presented as being instinct run wild, rather than actively intelligent. Though I guess there’s a pretty serious question of when does the former become the latter, but that’s one for the philosophers and scientists. Certainly well above my own pay grade.


I'm 100% certain this is false from direct statements from codices or novels. The imperium thinks that the Tyranids are just feral instincts and any acts of intelligence is the result of coincidence, but I think an Inquisitor started to question this. Or something like that.

And then we got the quips about the Norn-Queen designing new bioforms. And the Doom of Malantai. And Gladius where an entire planet was disintegrated via a specially built Zoanthrope.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We then need to consider whether they have any particular need for Wraithbone’s specific properties.

It acts as if it’s organic, but needs a psychic mind (ideally a disciplined one capable of introspection) to shape it. Whereas the Hive Mind can already produce super dense chitin, without needing a specialist being to shape and repair it, as said super dense chitin is inherently self-repairing over time.


That's a very good point. I'm sure Tyranids think Chitin is better. I don't see Tyranids utilizing Wraithbone as armor. I mean they don't use metal as armor so they must view chitin as the most superior. Even Tiamet is using special chitin instead of anything else.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Hive Mind is ultimately interested in sustainability, and making the most of the various resources at its disposal. Given Wraithbone is known to be difficult to work with, it may simply not be worth its effort, when it can achieve pretty much identical results with less effort.


So the counterpoint here is that Wraithbone is free so how could it not be sustainable? Any eldar can create wraithbone musical instruments and other lesser tools anywhere anytime. So no reason why Zoanthropes can't work on wraithbone during the centuries of empty void travel.

On the effort side, Tyranids are tireless, and they're actually pretty precise no? If they're imprecise then I'd understand they'd be incapable of manipulating wraithbone after the fact, but I think they can be as precise as they want to be.

Genestealer Cultists are right now allowed to fight instead of being consumed until the Tyranids' biomass reserves become low so I think that points to them willing to use non-tyranid flesh alongside their tyranid swarms. Genestealer Cultists follow the hive ships in their own metal ships.

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On the space travel? Tyranids do not make use of The Warp. They’re not noted as having any kind of hyper speed at all.

When travelling, the vast majority of gribblies on board enter a state of hibernation - and there are suggestions that more complex creatures are spawned to order only when there’s something requiring their attention.

Zoanthropes are highly psychic, that’s true. But they remain beasts of instinct, without introspection or inspiration. An Eldar on the path of the artisan can make sculptures and tools. But it takes a Bonesinger to create more complex things. That requires mental discipline, introspection and inspiration - none of these are exactly traits noted within the Tyranid species.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I’m afraid you’re wrong on the Genestealer Cults.

Once the Hive Fleet shows up, they’ll fight alongside the Tyranids. But they’re still a smorgasbord waiting to happen to the Hive Mind. They certainly don’t trail Hive Fleets.

Interestingly, in the original GSC background, they went willingly to their deaths when the Hive Fleet arrived. Modern day? Oh it’s far more horrific, with the Hive Mind simply turning on them at the drop of a hat and without warning.

This is also how the Hive Mind tends to recover its ground based troops. It eats them, recycles then, and spawns them anew. They don’t send landers down to shuttle them back up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 08:35:33


   
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roboemperor wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:
News to me, you got a source for that?


And the laws of physics.


Oh, cool, so you are making stuff up? Glad we cleared that one up. Have a good Friday.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the space travel? Tyranids do not make use of The Warp. They’re not noted as having any kind of hyper speed at all.


They do have hyper speed. It's called Narvhals.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
When travelling, the vast majority of gribblies on board enter a state of hibernation - and there are suggestions that more complex creatures are spawned to order only when there’s something requiring their attention.

Zoanthropes are highly psychic, that’s true. But they remain beasts of instinct, without introspection or inspiration. An Eldar on the path of the artisan can make sculptures and tools. But it takes a Bonesinger to create more complex things. That requires mental discipline, introspection and inspiration - none of these are exactly traits noted within the Tyranid species.


Ok so you pointed out 2 reasons:
1. Creating wraithbone is a waste of energy from the tyranids perspective. I'm not 100% sure that Tyranids' energy is 100% from the warp and 0 from biomass. Like its the only thing that makes sense but GW has been shown to not understand the laws of physics from time to time. So if their energy is derived from biomass somehow then it makes sense to not waste it on wraithbone.
Counter point: Eldars eat less biomass than Tyranids and they're producing armies of this stuff so it shouldn't be biomass intensive at all to produce and shape wraithbone.

2. Are tyranids capable of constructing fine structures? Everything they build is a bunch of flesh, and the tyranid models are crude not refined, so there is reason to think that Tyranids are incapable of fine manipulation.
Counter point though: They can create specialist bioforms so there's no reason why they can't make a bioform that is capable of fine psychic manipulation that surpasses bonesingers.

edit: I just learned Fabius Bile had noise marines who made wraithbone stuff. So without a doubt Tyranids do have access to that material because its not exclusive to eldars, whose dna they posses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And I’m afraid you’re wrong on the Genestealer Cults.

Once the Hive Fleet shows up, they’ll fight alongside the Tyranids. But they’re still a smorgasbord waiting to happen to the Hive Mind. They certainly don’t trail Hive Fleets.

Interestingly, in the original GSC background, they went willingly to their deaths when the Hive Fleet arrived. Modern day? Oh it’s far more horrific, with the Hive Mind simply turning on them at the drop of a hat and without warning.

This is also how the Hive Mind tends to recover its ground based troops. It eats them, recycles then, and spawns them anew. They don’t send landers down to shuttle them back up.


https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Voidbrood
"They never realised that the Hive Mind saw them simply as useful pawns and potential extra bio-matter to be consumed if the Hive Fleet's reserves ran low. "
"when in truth, the synapse creatures of the Tyranid hordes see the cultists as little more than ambulatory biomass to be consumed whenever the need arises. "

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 08:55:21


 
   
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One thing to keep in mind about Tyranid lore - esp the 3d edition codex, but not exclusively it - is that Tyranids have no "voice" of their own in the vast majority of writing regarding them. Instead they are often written either from the Narrators point of view; or from the point of view of how other races think they work - and most oftne this is from the Imperium where science is already a religion and where their conclusions might be totally bonkers/wrong.




So Tyranid lore can make some big changes without Tyranids actually changing or without the lore being "retconned" because the original lore was a theory by a scientist based upon limited information and doctrine training in science.





On the subject of mental sentience don't forget that many higher Synapse Tyranids are capable of operation away from the greater influence of the Hive Mind. Indeed that's one of the hallmarks of Synapse units in that not only do they project local Synapse, but they can also function when its broken off. A Hive Tyrant is the classic example of a unit that can operate on its own just fine. It's not "as smart" but its not reduced to nothing. Genestealers are famously used for infiltration missions long long in advance of the swarm and the general Synapse influence. From Space Hulks to Genestealer Cults.



As for construction, they are capable of vast feats of construction. From vast tendriles that go from ground to space for feeding; through to building an entire planet sized construct, the purpose of which we still don't know (save that it projects an immense Shadow in the Warp).



Also don't forget the swarm is constantly evolving and different fleets evolve along different pathways. What we see tabletop side is a tiny snippet of the most commonly used bioforms by the Tyranids in their most common state. Within the Galaxy and Swarm itself there are loads of variations - Hormagaunts that can jump further; Termagaunts with thicker armour; Hive Tyrants with greater Psyonic powers. All evolved to deal with specific situations and challenges that that particular swarm encounters.


With regard to independent thought within the Swarm itself we've no real ideal. Swarmlord equally suggests that it has some capacity for unique thinking; but also is slaved to the will of the greater Swarm itself. We also know little to nothing of Norn Queens who are, in theory so far, the highest level of Tyranid Organism. They might equally be slaved to instinct and the Hive Mind or might be closer to, say, Zerg Cerebrates from Starcraft - slaved to the will but possessed of enough free thinking that they have unique traits, attitudes, attentions and styles of dealing with things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 09:06:29


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 Overread wrote:
So Tyranid lore can make some big changes without Tyranids actually changing or without the lore being "retconned" because the original lore was a theory by a scientist based upon limited information and doctrine training in science.


Interesting. Been looking over the 4th edition tyranid codex and Kryptman says it takes the Tyranids a staggering amount of energy to take a world and by committing exterminatus when they do, they deny the hive fleets the prize, preventing the hive fleet from replenishing its energy due to no biomass.

But on the other hand, Kronos' shadow of the warp is explicitly draining energy from psykers to power their own "hosts".
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kronos
"Due to its strong connection to the Hive Mind, when Hive Fleet Kronos travels the Shadow in the Warp is at its most suffocatingly powerful and drifts ahead of its invasion swarms. This null power is agonising to psychically active foes and drains their spirit energy to bolster Kronos' own hosts, while throwing enemy forces into fearful confusion"

So its both. Both biomass and warp energy. I'll look more into this. If biomass is in fact burned for energy that would explain why there are no wraithbone users in the tyranid swarm. But like you said Kryptman could be wrong. Kronos is a later publication.

edit: 3rd edition says Hive Mind has "awesome energies". So I could be right. Iunno. What's your thoughts? 100% Warp Energy and Kryptman wrong?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 11:43:38


 
   
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Psychic powers come from the Warp and the Tyranids do have an abundance of them. However they also appear to interact differently with the Warp to other races.

With other races their souls are always at risk of being stolen and fed upon by creatures that live within the warp. Tyranids have no individual "souls" (as far as we know) and instead appear to almost share a united linked soul in the Hive Mind.

The Shadow in the Warp is not just so much a shadow as it is likely the sheer power of the Hive Mind simply driving all other Warp creatures in the same region running because of how all encompassing it is.



This gives the suggestion that the Warp is partly bound to the physical reality. It could be likely that the Warp has regions of deadspace within it which mirror the deadspace between Galaxies; then within each Galaxy there's the warp influenced reality created by that Galactic region. Many might be benign, others might have rips and tears like the Milky Way has.




What's confusing is that so far as we know Warp beings feed on the emotional energy of the Galaxy and the souls within it. Hence why the extreme excess of emotions the Eldar outpoured at their height was enough to birth a Chaos God.

Now the Tyranids, far as we know, have no such emotional concept or structure; and from what we can tell the Hive Mind doesn't consume souls within the Warp but drives them away along with the Warp Beings.




This might suggest that the Hive Mind is as alien to the Warp as it is to the physical reality as well. A creature capture of tapping into the energies of the Warp and bringing them into reality, but without having any of the craving, desire or need to feed on emotional soul energy.

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I'm only going to point out that Tyranids not having souls is the reason why neither Chaos nor Dark Eldar can feed on Tyranids (they can feed on the suffering Tyranids inflict on others, but not on the Tyranids themselves).

The Hive Mind could be considered a massive collective soul, but individual Tyranids are soulless.
   
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There’s also the issue of Wraithbone not being inherently organic. It’s extradimensional by its very nature.

Without DNA, it’s kinda useless to the Hive Mind.

Could they produce it? Well….possibly. If it can conceive of how it’s actually made. Given everything else is organic adaptation, it may have little to no concept of resistant, manufactured materials, however it’s made.

Not being organic as we understand it, it would only really be applied as additional, extraneous army plating. It wouldn’t be an integral part of the beastie.

And when it’s scoffed and broken down, what happens to it? It discorporates. So what’s left after that? If there’s no DNA, there’s no information for the Hive Mind to understand and replicate or adapt to another use.

This is a pretty big blind spot for the Hive Mind. It can’t really learn from Daemons and other warp stuff made manifest, because there’s no DNA involved.

It can absolutely perceive them. But it can’t incorporate any of their properties into a new generation of gribblies.

Sure, there is a Hive Fleet working on something warp based - but who knows what the actual result will be? The Shadow in the Warp (the exact nature of which remains largely a mystery) doesn’t appear to weaken Daemons. It affects mortals, because it could be likened to a psychic white noise, the warp so disturbed by so much psychic chatter and activity, a single mind on its own gets swallowed up in the background hubub. Daemons, not really being sentient and literally made of warp stuff? Not so much.

   
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Do we know they don’t use it?

‘Nids eat stuff; they break it down and convert it into useful materials. Is it not possible this is done with wraithbone?

Of course, if it was it’s not like it would be recognisable. It would most likely be mixed with other elements and biological compounds to create something new.

It would be nothing more than another building material. It would not result in wraithbone Nids.
   
 
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