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Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




From my reading it seems like the Tyranids are a total joke compared to all the factions at their peak.

It is my understanding that individual Krorks are stronger than the beast. And every ork was a Krork back in the day. If Octarius is anything to go by, Krorks would seem to stomp the Tyranids hard.
Necrons have one too many super weapons. If all of them are operational and organized with full power C'tan support on top of that, it seems the Tyranids would be as strong as a cockroach v.s. a tank.
Eldar went tit for tat with the Necrons' super weapons with the blackstone fortresses. I don't see how Tyranids could handle system wiping super weapons that completely outranges them.
Men of Iron had what, Blackhole cannons? Sun snuffers? Swarms of little robots that nom faster and better than Tyranids? Seems like they'd do everything the Tyranids do but better.

So is it correct to assume that the Tyranids are just cockroaches feasting on the corpses of all the factions and they wouldn't stand a chance in hell if all the factions haven't completely gimped themselves?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 13:25:10


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

You’ve missed that there are many, many more Tyranids than numbers within the other factions. Their numbers are unknown as we’ve but seen the tips of their Hive Fleet tendrils. They will feast until all are consumed.

 Stormonu wrote:
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Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






It might depend a bit on the relation of what we saw of the hive fleets so far compared to what is coming. Who knows the "main" Tyranid advance might be much more "technologically" advanced than what we saw so far, posessing planetkillers and sun snuffers on their own.

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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Few things:

1 - Orks, not Krorks. The Krork were an ancient race created by the Old Ones to fight the Necrontry during the War in Heaven and there is a theory that they might be either the genetic precursor or creators of the subsequent Orkoid races (Orks, Grotz and Snotz). Octarius is a "stalemate" between the Orks and one of the tendrils of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Emphasis on one because there were hundreds all over the Galaxy.

2 - Yes, the Necrons have a lot of big guns. Most of the race is either in stasis all over the Galaxy or has been destroyed by millennia of decay, accidents (i.e. star going supernova, earthquakes), revenge strikes from the Aeldari and then awakening wars against the modern races. The C'tan are slaves to the Necrons and can't be reunited or they will kill the Necrons for enslaving them in crystals.

3 - The Aeldari fought the Necrontyr in the War in Heaven and almost lost, indeed it was only the conflict between the C'tan and Necrons that saved them from the same extinction the Old Ones suffered. The Aeldari are now a dying, fractured race doomed to be consumed by a God they birthed. They are in no way a serious threat to the Tyranids.

4 - The Men of Iron don't exist anymore. End of story.

5 - As others have pointed out, the Tyranids seen so far are probing tendrils of the main swarm. Leviathan was the largest to invade the Milky Way and was only "stopped" (I'll get back to that) after the loss of trillions of lives and thousands of worlds. Kryptmans gambits (ending food sources i.e. genocide and the Octarius plan) both failed in the long run, and even though the Great Rift caused huge damage to Leviathan, it still destroyed much of the Red Scar, including seeding Baal itself with infiltrator organisms, and continues to ravage the wider Galaxy.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






If we are talking peak Old Ones, pre-fall Eldar, or war in heaven Necrons then they could probably deal with Tyranids on something like equal footing. But it still wouldn't be a joke.

Assuming the krork were genetically superior 'prime-orks' that would make things worse; Tyranids would obtain those genetics.

Men of Iron still ultimately lost, so they weren't THAT powerful.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The trouble is…..

The Tyranid race for all intents and purposes very likely outnumbers every other race combined. Certainly this is the case in terms of creatures at arms. And unlike the various other species, they’re of literally a single mind and purpose.

Yes, we do see fighting between Hive Fleets, but given their unique nature that’s not exactly a downside. One could better describe it as weapons testing. A way for the Hive Mind to contrast and compare effectiveness, with the winner coming out all the stronger.

They are however relatively slow moving as such things can be measured. If say, The Imperium could focus on the Hive Fleets and the Hive Fleets alone, there might be a chance of victory. Same with Orks, and possibly Necrons (Necrons have a significant advantage as they’re not really affected by the Shadow in the Warp).

But, 40K is 40K, and everyone is too busy fighting everyone else to be able to tackle the Hive Fleets properly.

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Men of Iron exists. There even is one offisial model for one.

What the original poster fails to take into the account is that the Tyranids are yet to be at the topp of their power. The rest are on their way.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






That Man of Iron is the last one. Its race was exterminated after they were beaten by the fleshlings and any more that are found are eradicated for being A.I.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 15:50:36


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

What is your source of that information? How do you know it is a reliable source? The robots the admechs have has a lot of the fluff that they certanly seem to be doing their own thing some times. And it is only a retcon handwave to introduce them again. The universe is a big place. And there are certain things worth keeping and ekstra eye on.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It's been in 40k background consistently that the Men of Iron were destroyed by an alliance of powers prior to the Age of Strife. The anti-Artificial Intelligence laws were introduced specifically because of the Men of Iron. UR-025 is an exception to the rule and only UR-025 knows it is a Man of Iron. The rest of the adventurers from Blackstone Fortress think it's just a personal robot of a Magos sent to study the structure. When a Mechanicum Adept made the Kaban Engine just before the Heresy, they were terrified because they had just broken one of the most sacred laws of the Imperium in creating it. In fact one of the reasons so many of the Mechanicum joined Horus was to get rid of the Crimson Accords that banned the research and construction of A.I.
The Mechanicum and the Adeptus Mechanicus robots are not A.I. because they do not have free will. All have programmed behaviours that must be maintained by someone trained in the arts of Mars. There are even rules to show this such as Programmed Behaviour in HH where any Automata resort to basic protocols if they are out of range of a piece of equipment called a Cortex Controller.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/15 16:24:05


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






There are only 2 actual threats to the galaxy in 40k.

Necrons, whos tech is so beyond the scope of everyone else that they could annihilate everything from their diner table while sipping wine. (They have that living star map of the galaxy where they can manipulate celestial bodies in real time by swiping on it like a cell phone including winking stars out of existence.)

And the Tyranids, who eat entire galaxies. Everyone else is so caught up in their petty squabbles they don't even realize the scope of the threat.

People might argue that the chaos gods are also a threat, but if Chaos actually wins and all life is extinguished/falls to the warp then there are no more intelligent creatures to sustain them in the warp and they end up losing anyway. So while yes, bad for everyone, they ultimately cannot win themselves.

Thats it. It only LOOKS like the Tyranids are not such a huge threat because they are looking at all the blood sweat and tears spent defending single systems from them, the sheer scope of the loss to do it, and they think it's a victory. As though they caused real loss and/or damage to the tyranids. As though it wasn't just causing the hive mind to chip a nail.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 16:29:23



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Gert wrote:
Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.


But it's not sustainable for several reasons. 1) Chaos is self destructive. You can't have a god of war, violence, and death that gains power the more violence there is and not have a constant loss of life to fuel him. 2) The gods don't play nice with each other. Betrayals and power grabs are inevitable. Then see above. 3) He's not the only god of death. Nurgle for being a god of life isn't a god of sentient life. He spreads plagues and disease. The life that sustains him also succumbs to him. The sensation of having your skin shucked from you like an ear of corn isn't one most life can survive but either inflicting it or experiencing it is where Slaanesh's life style leads to. And Tzneetch for being all about change is actually the most stable. Except with enough change and mutation you become mindless abominations.

Again none of that is sustainable. They are all self destructive. It's not an if, it's a when - IF they were to win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 16:41:13



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






And if Humanity is eradicated then numerous other races will step up to the plate. The Gods don't care where their sustenance comes from and if the Milky Way is somehow emptied of all sentient life then they'll just find another Galaxy. That being said, eradicating all sentient life is a very difficult task and the Gods are nothing if not patient. Something somewhere will come along to keep them in the game in the material realm and if not, oh well. The Gods can't be destroyed, that much is certain.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.

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Made in us
Norn Queen






 Gert wrote:
And if Humanity is eradicated then numerous other races will step up to the plate. The Gods don't care where their sustenance comes from and if the Milky Way is somehow emptied of all sentient life then they'll just find another Galaxy. That being said, eradicating all sentient life is a very difficult task and the Gods are nothing if not patient. Something somewhere will come along to keep them in the game in the material realm and if not, oh well. The Gods can't be destroyed, that much is certain.


I never specified humanity. I said Life.

But no, they CAN be destroyed. They, being creatures of the warp, exist as manifestations of psychic feedback of sentient creatures in the universe. If there are no sentient creatures the warp calms the feth down and the gods stop being.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






So if the monumental task of eradicating all life in the Galaxy is achieved, considering the Warp and Gods are one and the same, how do you destroy them? In theory, the Warp can be contained and no longer able to breach into the material realm, hence the Blackstone Pylons, but it can't be destroyed.
Then we go into the seriously crazy stuff where the Gods always exist and have always existed, even Slaanesh who is "young". How do you destroy beings that transcend space and time? What about other Galaxies or dimensions?
The Gods will never "win" their Great Game because it can't be "won". The Gods are parts to the whole that is the Warp, just like Daemons are parts of their Gods. They can be weakened and perhaps even contained/trapped like other entities such as Isha or Khaine but destroyed? Nah.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/15 18:15:31


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Gert wrote:
So if the monumental task of eradicating all life in the Galaxy is achieved, considering the Warp and Gods are one and the same, how do you destroy them? In theory, the Warp can be contained and no longer able to breach into the material realm, hence the Blackstone Pylons, but it can't be destroyed.
Then we go into the seriously crazy stuff where the Gods always exist and have always existed, even Slaanesh who is "young". How do you destroy beings that transcend space and time? What about other Galaxies or dimensions?
The Gods will never "win" their Great Game because it can't be "won". The Gods are parts to the whole that is the Warp, just like Daemons are parts of their Gods. They can be weakened and perhaps even contained/trapped like other Warp Entities such as Isha or Khaine but destroyed? Nah.


Khorne exists because there is violence via and to sentient creatures. He is a manifestation of the psychic resonance of that violence. If there are no sentient creatures to commit the violence, Khorne no longer exists. The chaos gods are the most powerful psychic manifestations not because they themselves are powerful but because their elements are the most widespread and create the most powerful impacts in the warp. Violence and trauma are powerful things that leave strong psychic imprints in the warp.

The Warp, and entities in the warp, are reflections of what happens in the materium. If you have nothing to send into the warp the warp stops being so volatile. It's why the warp has always been dangerous, but the warp has gotten more dangerous. It's why Slaanesh can be born from what the Eldar were doing in the materium. Psychically powerful people in the materium degrades into sensation cults and started going to farther and farther extremes until suddenly the amount of psychic impact in the warp manifests a entity that reflect all that they were doing.

The Chaos gods NEED people. They don't exist without them.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.

Some sort of deity that feasts on sexual immorality and depravity, worship of whom no doubt results in the birthrate skyrocketing.

Ah well, pity that.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.


I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Denny wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.


I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?



when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Denny wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.


I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?



when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.


Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 20:02:04


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.
I like this theory!

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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

 Gert wrote:
It's been in 40k background consistently that the Men of Iron were destroyed by an alliance of powers prior to the Age of Strife. The anti-Artificial Intelligence laws were introduced specifically because of the Men of Iron. UR-025 is an exception to the rule and only UR-025 knows it is a Man of Iron. The rest of the adventurers from Blackstone Fortress think it's just a personal robot of a Magos sent to study the structure. When a Mechanicum Adept made the Kaban Engine just before the Heresy, they were terrified because they had just broken one of the most sacred laws of the Imperium in creating it. In fact one of the reasons so many of the Mechanicum joined Horus was to get rid of the Crimson Accords that banned the research and construction of A.I.
The Mechanicum and the Adeptus Mechanicus robots are not A.I. because they do not have free will. All have programmed behaviours that must be maintained by someone trained in the arts of Mars. There are even rules to show this such as Programmed Behaviour in HH where any Automata resort to basic protocols if they are out of range of a piece of equipment called a Cortex Controller.


How do you know there are not more? You did not know about UR-025 before Blackstone fortress.

This might be a Fabula Syuzhet problem though.

In Dune witch 40K borrows that consept from the machines make a resurface in the later books. There they where also offisially destroyed.

Meanwhile back in the 40K universe we have this description of the Kastelan Robots:

"Bands of these itinerant war machines may appear in the Battle Congregations of the Cult Mechanicus, their arrival unheralded and taken as a sign of the Machine God's favour. They will allow themselves to be directed by local Tech-priests until the battle is won, after which they disappear once more, perhaps for centuries at a time."

To me it sounds like a good idea to disguise yourself as something you look quite similar to if you where a rogue AI. Much like UR-025. There could be others around also.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/15 20:37:38


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.

as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Formosa wrote:
we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.

as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.


They kind of say and imply that. But if it was fully true, why don't the legions bound to the chaos gods show up in Fantasy and start blasting people with chaos infused bolters? Where are the demon engines? A plague crawler doesn't actually give a gak if it's attacking the 40k universe or the fantasy one.

This



doesn't give a single gak what it's killing. It's just happy to be killing. Why is it not showing up everywhere?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




roboemperor wrote:
From my reading it seems like the Tyranids are a total joke compared to all the factions at their peak.

It is my understanding that individual Krorks are stronger than the beast. And every ork was a Krork back in the day. If Octarius is anything to go by, Krorks would seem to stomp the Tyranids hard.
Necrons have one too many super weapons. If all of them are operational and organized with full power C'tan support on top of that, it seems the Tyranids would be as strong as a cockroach v.s. a tank.
Eldar went tit for tat with the Necrons' super weapons with the blackstone fortresses. I don't see how Tyranids could handle system wiping super weapons that completely outranges them.
Men of Iron had what, Blackhole cannons? Sun snuffers? Swarms of little robots that nom faster and better than Tyranids? Seems like they'd do everything the Tyranids do but better.

So is it correct to assume that the Tyranids are just cockroaches feasting on the corpses of all the factions and they wouldn't stand a chance in hell if all the factions haven't completely gimped themselves?


Not even vaguely. Tyranids have, effectively, already won. (Barring necron superscience miracles (not just superweapons) or some other pull from some place the sun don't shine).
They're endless hordes that grow more numerous and stronger over time, with effectively unlimited resources, and capacity to expand, even when they lose.

GW has made them the overpowered death of the setting, even with their blithe indifference to numbers for everyone else.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

 Gert wrote:
That Man of Iron is the last one. Its race was exterminated after they were beaten by the fleshlings and any more that are found are eradicated for being A.I.


This is really funny. I love the idea that we can declare that the Men of Iron are "gone forever in 40k for good no coming back never ever ever" just because the Imperium said they were. Scientists can only sometimes tell if species of normal animals are extinct or not on our own planet, and we're talking about figuring out if more than one member of a race of hyperintelligent AI exists throughout an entire galaxy while all the people looking for them are insane religious zealots who believe that their laser guns will stop working if they don't pray to them enough. With those facts in mind, forgive me if I don't feel like taking a defined stance on the Men of Iron's status in the 40k universe.


Also, has no one yet pointed out that the Men of Iron not existing anymore doesn't have any bearing on the actual question in the OP? The poster wasn't asking if the Imperium could gather together a bunch of Men of Iron in the current time period and use them to beat up the Tyranids, they were asking if the human race at its strongest in 40k history, back in like the 20th millennium or whatever back when they actually had Men of Iron under control, would be able to defeat the Nids. The point about them being gone would still be irrelevant even if it were provable.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Iracundus wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Denny wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.


I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?



when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.


Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.


You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.

I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.


But it's not sustainable for several reasons. 1) Chaos is self destructive. You can't have a god of war, violence, and death that gains power the more violence there is and not have a constant loss of life to fuel him. 2) The gods don't play nice with each other. Betrayals and power grabs are inevitable. Then see above. 3) He's not the only god of death. Nurgle for being a god of life isn't a god of sentient life. He spreads plagues and disease. The life that sustains him also succumbs to him. The sensation of having your skin shucked from you like an ear of corn isn't one most life can survive but either inflicting it or experiencing it is where Slaanesh's life style leads to. And Tzneetch for being all about change is actually the most stable. Except with enough change and mutation you become mindless abominations.

Again none of that is sustainable. They are all self destructive. It's not an if, it's a when - IF they were to win.


The Imperium is honestly just as bad. It's a perverse dystopia that has consistently been described as circling down the drain in an inevitable fashion.
   
 
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