Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello Everyone,

I am trying to figure something out and see what the general thoughts of the gaming market are. I want to worn you that this post may get technical when it comes to the buissness side of the industry when it comes to small companies. I am not taking any sides and i am providing examples from the American table top miniature industery that i have experenced as a small producer myself.

As of right now their really are 3 casting mediems in the industery at the moment - Metal, Resin, and Plastic.Here is a break down of each mediem as i have expernced them.

Metal - Metal is currently one of the most reliable and cost effective mode of casting in the USA right now. Start up on metal casting in expencive. To purchase your own metal casting equipment is around $10,000 for the nessissary start up equipment. There is allot of skill and experience out their when it comes to Metal casting today. Their is also lots of very talented companies in the US that sell their services at good rates. Metal casting have a fantastic turn around. I can place an order today and have the models in hand in as quick as a week. Metal models require vulcanized mold for the spincasting machines. The mold are not that expencive, at just under $100 and they can cast as meny as 20 models to a mold. The molds last a long time and hundreds of castings with low miscast rates. Metal models one of the best casting mediems for models with heavy detail. 28mm Man sized models are cost effective, with the final product selling any where between $2.50 to $12 per model depending on wieght.

Resin - Resin as casting mediem has become casting mediem for small companies that are looking at bringing their models in house. The start up costs can be as low as $1500 up to $3000 for high end equipment. This low cost molding comes with risks and is very labor intencive when compare to the other casting methods. Miscast rates on resin model are rather high. miscasts can happon for any number of reasons. With that said, resin models that come out can be rather breath taking. Resin holds detail rather well. Resin molds break down rather quickly, and typically can only be used 30 times before failing and having to create new molds. For 28mm Man sized models, resin is roughly the same cost as metal and offer no real savings for the customer. Larger models is where resin shines as a mediem and models can cut the prices of a model down quite a bit. I had a metal version of Uktena that would retail for near $28 and i switched to resin and it knocked the price down to $20 per model

Plastic - Plastic is bit of a wild one here. Their are two types of plastic casting right now, injection and Siocast. Injection molding is not cheep. The epuipment is very expencive, so expencinve infact that casting in house would be difficult and you should look into a injection molding service. China has several of these services, that come with there own risks. The UK and the US has one or two services for hire. In any case an injection mold will run you around $10,000 a mold, reguadless of size. While the fail rate for injection molds are low, it is not unheard of, and can cost thousands of dollars to fix. The greatest benifit of injection molding is the "cheap" product, which before mark up can cost as little as $1 a sprue.

Siocast is a new casting process that combines the good parts of metal and resin casting processes, with a final plastic product. Siocast has a huge bearier of entry. a complete set of Siocast equipment can cost anywhere between $60,000 to $100,000 just to start up. This is kind of a non-starter for most companies my size. I even talked to some of the casters i worked with and it was a bit of non-starter for them as well. I found a service that provices Siocast and i am currently looking at costs. Right now mold are more expncinve the metal and slightly cheeper then resin.Right now it is looking that Siocast may only drop the prices of finished products slightly, but i have to wait and see.

Now this is where you come in - why is there bad feelings to toward metal models, even though is a cost effective mediem for small companies to use? I really want to hear what you have to say about the casting mediems and the direction you think the industry should start moving?

Here is my two cents when it comes to metal vs plastic, i will use GW as an example. When GW moved from metal to plastic they really took away what ever creativity they had. Metal allowed them to release a new hero here and there and even test run a new army with just a handful of models at little cost to them. Now very model kit is over planned and underdelivered, Age of Sigmar by far the worst offender of this. GW can fix most of the AoS lines with a metal model or models here and their to address ballance problems with out having to release a new box set with only one useable model (which could have been metal to begin with). Metal produces faster and can be on the shelves in a month vs a year like most of the plastic kits they are releasing today. GW could save a ton of money by releasing metal models of new or experimental units/ armies before comitting to a brand new line of models that no one wants to use. Will those are my thoughts on metal vs plastic, what are yours?

 Paymaster Games wrote:

Now this is where you come in - why is there bad feelings to toward metal models, even though is a cost effective mediem for small companies to use? I really want to hear what you have to say about the casting mediems and the direction you think the industry should start moving?

The dislike of metal models, for me, mainly comes from them being more difficult to convert, since I have a tendency to chop up far more models than I assemble stock standard. I've also been scarred by larger, multi-part metal models from the likes of GW and PP that were painful to put together and keep together without pinning. When they're being carried around for gaming, the paint on metal models also chips easier than on plastrics or resin.

As for the direction the industry is moving... both metal and resin are becoming too cost prohibitive. Injection moulded plastic is much more affordable (though still expensive) these days than it was 20 years ago, which is why there are more start-ups using it, but I suspect it will eventually be outpaced by 3D printing which is rapidly coming down in cost and up in quality. If someone can come up with a printer than can print with a HIPS-like material in resin-printing quality, it will be game over for the more traditional production methods, I suspect.

I'm on record saying that metal is God's own casting medium.

I've been painting 2nd edition metal IG lately and love the ability to pick up a model and paint it. No clipping, no gluing, no decisions to make, it is perfect for hordes. I know it is the opposite of the way things are done but my ideal system would be metal infantry and plastic for heroes and specialists. I love the weight of it and the indestructibility.

Monopose plastics can also be good for the split between infantry and characters.

I'm increasingly down on GW's system of infantry with a dozen parts and yet very little in the way of conversion/customization options.

I don’t like metal miniatures for a lot of reasons. Metal minis are difficult to convert. Metal minis are more frustrating to assemble. Metal minis don’t hold their paint as well as I would like, especially bad since I consider painting a chore and converting a pleasure. Metal feels different. This is a big deal to me. Metal models feel cooler to the touch, heavier and harder than all the other minis in my collection. Plastic, resin, PVC, Bonesium…they feel similar enough. The metal minis just don’t belong.

I have many of your resin monsters. I recommend your company to people asking about WGA Aztecs or WLG Mythic Americas. I want to support you. But I will never buy any metal minis, from you or anyone. If you ever find another medium, I’ll buy at least a skirmish force of your 28mm minis. The Kiribati from your last campaign really spoke to me, but I wouldn’t pledge for them in metal.

I’m curious why you don’t mention 3D printing? You’ve shown renders of some of your minis; are the rest mostly hand-sculpted?


Please do not base any of your business decisions on what GW would do. They are completely different, with a different business model.

To be clear when I praise metal I'm talking about 1-2 piece human sized models. Nothing bigger.

Plastic or resin for vehicles and monsters.

Plastic if you're including anything smaller than a thumbnail.

I've been around since the 1980's with Grenadier AD&D miniatures, and GW boardgames. I mostly buy miniatures for gaming, such as miniature skirmish games, boardgames, and RPG's.

Back then, metal was better than plastic. I mean, this is what even GW had (and those antennas snapped off, too!).

EDIT: Metal multipiece usually a PITA compared to plastic!



Now, I'd say that metal (and resin) has the *potential* of better than plastic, but plastic's improved. Even with boardgame plastic, plastics got better with Fantasy Flight Games, around Descent II.



I hear good things about Siocast keeping down the prices of hobby miniatures, since metal's going up, and Chinese manufacturing has been hit with supply chain issues. But sorry to hear that it's still out of reach for smaller companies.

I'm still waiting for that $200 fume-free 3D printer. At least for fantasy gaming, with 3D printing you can make a model that looks like your character. I dislike converting, since it's another step away from a finished painted miniature. While I will pay more for a metal miniature because metal is most costly than plastic, I will only buy metal if no similar and less expensive plastic miniature exists. Even only recently, I had to get old west miniatures as more expensive hobby miniatures, then CMON puts out an entire KS of plastic cowboy and zombie miniatures. Even though monopose, they'll do just fine on the gaming table.

It's not the medium, it's the model.... that said.... metal is heavy, paint chips easily, doesn't lend itself to (easy) conversion and as others have said larger or complex models can be a pain to put together - and keep together. I had a skink leader on a palantine (?) that I never did assemble, despite significant GW attempts to help.

For me, the weight of metal is really what can make or break it for me. I really do like the heft and solid feel of a metal mini, but sometimes I just can't stand it - why is this one so heavy? Usually it is when you have the odd metal mini in a group and you are moving them or picking them up and you hit this heavy one that just needs special handling - don't throw it in the box too hard, you will break one of the plastic minis, etc.

For infantry though the weight is usually an advantage, tables get bumped, there are ACs and fans blowing, you need something that will stay put.

I suppose it depends on the emphasis in your personal hobby enjoyment. I don’t even think of my minis as gaming pieces, but as models that can occasionally be used in a game.

Metal doesn't put me off, but as i get older i find i paint fewer and fewer of them

(and as Kid Kyoto says 1-2 pieces are all i really want a human sized metal mini to be in)

I like plastic, it makes conversions and kit bashes so much easier (and i'm happy to buy CMON quality PVC as well as the nicer HIPS stuff)

I like the detail on resin (and i've got a number of nice resin monsters from Paymaster games). I would buy resin human sized minis but i'd worry about gaming with them

Siocast i'm less convinced of, i've now seen a couple of infinity bits in person and didn't love them. they reminded me of the extra flexible resin some firms use (Prodos used if for a lot of their mutant chronicles stuff),

Bones Black (that i've seen folk say is siocast?) is a bit better but still a pain to clean like bad PVC

As said above if you've got 3D sculpted stuff direct 3D printing is also worth considering (I know Impact Miniatures print some of their own stuff, and also do contract printing)

My main concern with metal is that models are just kind of harder to care for. The weight of them just makes them more prone to falling over and taking damage or damaging one another in play. I have nothing against it, but they honestly feel more fragile than a lot of other mediums with the exception of thin resins.

I used to be pretty "metal is the one true way," but honestly, my current thoughts are "it depends."

Smaller, limited piece models I'm fine with metal, resin, or plastic. Anything other than PVC.

As things get more complicated, I lean towards resin for smaller and medium pieces, but good HIPS plastic kits are generally liked as well. Big honkin' things pretty much have to be HIPS.

I'm actually buying less and less, though, and printing more of my own models, which is pretty much in the resin camp (UV cured vs chemical reaction curing, but about the same in a lot of cases in final product's behavior).

3D printing is a difficult animal to pin down. I am always in favor of new and exicting ways to bring models to the table top, but i am not sure 3D printing is the way to go. There are a lot of of problems with the "industry" around 3d printing and the files they come from. Theft is common, product controls do not exist, and scores of other problems accross the industry. My understanding is that there is a absolute limit to what a personal printer can do, for example they can not print models smaller then 32mm with out major detail loss, high fail rates, and/or the models are of poor quality and break and shatter at very high rates. While technicology will likely get better, but it will not be right away. I have used 3D printing in the past, and i have had to out source the model to a high end print shop to even come close to quality that i would get with a hand sculpted model. There are huge problems when it comes to a artist CADs and the physical product. While i have worked with several proffesional artists and there is little difference between the CAD and the physical product, when printed using a high quality printer. Most CAD artist have no idea what their physical product would look like, and most are very muddy and detail loss is very bad.

Now with that said, I feel that Terrain is perfect of 3D printing. Scale and quality would not matter.

Another point i would like to bring up is that 3D printing does lend itself to design elements that are unrealistic for a hand sculpter to do, like sceanic bases that tell a story or sell a feeling. Lost Kingdom Minis is very good at this, and larger companies like GW and Kingdom Death is doing this to great effect.

It sounds like you're a bit behind on the 3d printing tech, if I'm honest. All of what you say is mostly true as of 2 years ago. However, things have changed in the technology significantly in that period. It's relatively easy to have good success rates on even 10mm scale models with sharp detail with the newer 4k (and now 8k) resolution printers, and new resins are much more durable.

It's true that some digital artists may not be familiar with models for 3d printing, but that, too, is changing very rapidly. But, you could make the same argument about any type of artist who isn't familiar with how the final medium for their art is used or its limitations.

you certainly need to see physical product from new (to you) 3d sculptors,

as you say ones who are coming in from the video gaming or cgi world may well produce stuff that just doesn't work well as a physical product

but if they do know what they're doing they can produce detailed and functional stuff

Yes, definitely the quality of sculpts available today is tremendously better than it was a few short years ago. So many excellent Patreons now with sculpts that are truly astounding. There are even super quality sculps being made available for free on many stl sites.

You just need to know your printer settings to get good prints and even printers have come leaps and bounds from a few years ago. Frankly, I do not think I would ever buy a corporate made kit or minis again with the print world so open and accessible.