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So as title says, I think players have gotten to greedy with the deadly bloat.

This has come about this time from seeing people's reactions to the Lion (mainly fellow dark angels on FB pages).

So a Primarch that gets 11 attacks on the charge, can deep strike and gets to re roll charges. Hits on 2's and is wounding on 2's or 3's 99% of the time. And does flat four damage with each.

And he attacks first so even if he is charged he gets his first strike.

That's a potential of 44 wounds! Against Angron after multiple test roles it's an average of 16-24 wounds. This means the lion is on average one shotting most he gets into combat with. He can reroll hits and wounds of 1 and gets a 4++ that bounces back three mortals as well and a pistol that does flat 2 damage.

Then he also gives units a 6" heroic intervention to a unit near by to allow others to be in combat with him. And he also gets two deny the witches while not being a psyker.

Yet people are complaining he "isn't powerful enough".

Same when vashtorr came out. People were dissapointed.

Workshop are showing an effort to show somewhat balanced rules and the playerbase still complains because it's not Jilly or overpowering enough.

What are others views on this?

I am very much to the big reset of 10th I've enjoyed everything I've seen so far

I think it's more of a comparison to the other units available. For the same points you can get better utility out of other units. The Lion is deadly, but it's a massive point sink that can be mostly ignored IMO.

Overall, I don't think it's unfair to ask what he replaces in an army list and how much benefit you get from that replacement. Ultimately GW should be aiming for a side grade.

people will always complain, can't change that. Just tune it out.

Oh and btw, his "fight first" doesnt let him fight before the first charger

Most of the complaints that I've seen about the Lion's rules have been centered on his durability compared to similar units, not a lack of offense.

He's fragile compared to say Abaddon and Chaos aren't meant to have nice things.

Due to character protection, you should really always get your "go" unless you mess up. But equally, against MSU (i.e. lots of units about 100~ points) he's going to struggle to find a meaningful target, before then being taken out relatively easily.

OP is right. It was already silly when Angron is given enough D1 attacks to kill a Knight. No, I don't care he's a Primarch Daemon Prince.

Daemon Primarchs should be the pinnacle of combat ability. They're a cut above Primarchs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daemon Primarchs should be the pinnacle of combat ability. They're a cut above Primarchs.

Lore wise, when a Primarch enters daemonhood. It's often seen as a sidegrade not an upgrade. The whole slaves to darkness and all that

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daemon Primarchs should be the pinnacle of combat ability. They're a cut above Primarchs.

Lore wise, when a Primarch enters daemonhood. It's often seen as a sidegrade not an upgrade. The whole slaves to darkness and all that

It's fine to leave that in the background and have them more powerful on the tabletop though, the sidegrady aspects are mostly philosophical and 'meta', while the one thing they do get out of the deal is additional raw power, which is what we would primarily see on the table.

Might be an interesting general point of discussion though. Lore-wise, what would be the expected comparative power rankings of primarch, daemon primarch, daemon prince, greater daemon?

Crispy78 wrote:
Might be an interesting general point of discussion though. Lore-wise, what would be the expected comparative power rankings of primarch, daemon primarch, daemon prince, greater daemon?

I don't think you can even consistently rank them as per lore, it literally bogs down to 'they are as strong as the plot demands' from an outside view and from an inside view it depends more on circumstances than anything else. Greater Demons can be anything from 'nasty but beatable by guardsmen' to 'quasi-unlimited godlike power', but can also reduced to nothing by the whims of their gods in an instant, Demon Princes in general are badasses that can go toe to toe with almost anything and are somewhat less dependant on godly patronage, but ultimately still rely on it, and Primarchs, regardless of Demon status, can job both of them on a good day, but get beaten to a bloody pulp by Greater Demons on other days. Non-Demon Primarchs have a tendency to pull warp-related gimmicks out of thin air to achieve victory at the eleventh hour if the plot demands it. Not as bad as Golden-Age Superman, but close to it.

Another example of someone who doesn’t understand the rules complaining about people who do.
Fight first doesn’t help you if you get charged and the Lion has pretty poor defensive stats for someone who is supposed to be the only character who can stand up to Angron.
People are not complaining about his offensive abilities, he is a total beast in that arena.
Defensively, he has no damage reduction ability or wound cap, his shield is worse than a basic storm shield, and his inner circle rule doesn’t help him with permanent transhuman because he’s a monster. Currently. A squad of terminators at half his points are a better option.

I’m still going to play him though because he’s the Lion and looks amazing, but don’t dismiss people’s disappointment with his stats simply because you don’t understand their argument.

First of all if you trade your sole for demonhood you gain power. This is like the first rule in story telling. Plain and simply this is why the chaos lore is a bit derpy GW wants them to be the big bad but dosent want to give them the power they deserve chaos space marines lore wise should be the ultimate expression of pure power they should be low model count. But 1vs 1 a chaos marine should be stronger than an imperial marine. Simple as, this sums up the identity crisis GW has with chaos.

Now as far as the lion goes the forest walk deapstrike crap is gimmicky and shouldt be their. And his defense is too low. His offense looks good to me. Basically within the confines of 9th people are right the lions defense is too low.


Yes I hope lethality is reduced across the board in 9th. Equality would be great.

Finally yes a demon primarch should be able to body a big stompy imperial knight. They are the closest thing to Satan we will ever see in the setting.

Should every release have a model/unit that you need to own to be top tier compedetive?

Do newly released named characters need to be auto takes in an already S tier army?

Lammia wrote:
Should every release have a model/unit that you need to own to be top tier compedetive?

Do newly released named characters need to be auto takes in an already S tier army?

Actually taking him would probably hurt the DA player more than help. But are you really asking if the First Primarch, supposedly one of the best HTH fighters the Imperium has ever seen, should be good? Seriously?

 bullyboy wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Should every release have a model/unit that you need to own to be top tier compedetive?

Do newly released named characters need to be auto takes in an already S tier army?

Actually taking him would probably hurt the DA player more than help. But are you really asking if the First Primarch, supposedly one of the best HTH fighters the Imperium has ever seen, should be good? Seriously?

I mean he almost lost to a half-marine so he probably isn't that great in HTH.

 bullyboy wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Should every release have a model/unit that you need to own to be top tier compedetive?

Do newly released named characters need to be auto takes in an already S tier army?

Actually taking him would probably hurt the DA player more than help. But are you really asking if the First Primarch, supposedly one of the best HTH fighters the Imperium has ever seen, should be good? Seriously?

No.

Good is a relative; and the Lion is coming into the best performing faction in the game. So the question of 'do I take this model?' Shouldn't be an instant yes from a power perspective. He should still be good, but no one should be surpeised if he never makes the cut either.

Yeah, he has the damage potential to kill anything in the game except wound-caps.

If you end up charging at 5 skitariis and then dying, its a problem with how you played him.

Am i saying he's giga broken busted, absolutely not, but i'd rather have primarchs not be super easy to play optimally because theyre so forgiving

 bullyboy wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Should every release have a model/unit that you need to own to be top tier compedetive?

Do newly released named characters need to be auto takes in an already S tier army?

Actually taking him would probably hurt the DA player more than help. But are you really asking if the First Primarch, supposedly one of the best HTH fighters the Imperium has ever seen, should be good? Seriously?

On the tabletop, the buck has to stop somewhere. 'The greatest fighter' characters are a dime a dozen, every faction claims to have one, and many even sport several pretenders to the title. All fine and dandy for the background or for a good-spirited 'Could Batman beat up Superman'* debate, but not really advisable for what claims to be a somewhat-balanced wargame. Meme-profiles like Angron with his effective dozens of attacks are already laughable as they are, as are artificial checks on deadlyness via wound caps and such, the last thing the game needs is an arms race between overhyped special characters.


* Yes, if he had time to prepare

Tbh there's plenty of complaints about the lion out there, about how he's not survivable enough, how his special gear isn't good enough, how he doesn't buff the army/world as well as Gman does, how he's been turned unto a one dimensional beatstick. I've seen/heard all of these, but the big unifying factor behind them is that they all totally expect The Lion to have the melee prowess he does as per his fluff, so they're basically asking for him to have no weaknesses.

This is what happens every time a new beatstick is released.

People said the same exact thing about Angron.

Actually, I’d simply ask for more balance. Reduce his offensive capabilities and replace with some defensive buffs. I don’t mind paying for them either. Not sure on what world you take him over 10 terminators (if we’re purely talking gameplay meta etc), but I’d like to see him have the ability to take a serious punch before dying, especially compared to the other Primarchs available. I guess right now he’ll just have to be babysat by a judiciar.
I guess it really is moot with 10th on the horizon, but just another example of GW not really knowing how to balance decently. Do I want him immune? No, but right now he fails miserably to even marginal offensive attacks.
Let GW do one of their “Lion vs everyone” videos, and see them go “oh, he died again, lol”

Note : there's no guarantee 10th will balance things -- they're just making it easier to play. There will most likely be some nutty things in the indexes. It's just a matter of how bad it could be, but I have some confidence they'll do an ok job.

 bullyboy wrote:
Another example of someone who doesn’t understand the rules complaining about people who do.
Fight first doesn’t help you if you get charged...

Of course it does.

Because when you charge, it's your opponent who gets to choose the first unit to fight.

Normally, they can't choose anything because all your stuff will have Fight First as a result of charging. However, if your opponent also has a unit with Fight First, then it will get to fight before any of your charging units.

 vipoid wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Another example of someone who doesn’t understand the rules complaining about people who do.
Fight first doesn’t help you if you get charged...

Of course it does.

Because when you charge, it's your opponent who gets to choose the first unit to fight.

Normally, they can't choose anything because all your stuff will have Fight First as a result of charging. However, if your opponent also has a unit with Fight First, then it will get to fight before any of your charging units.

Like I said, people not knowing the damn rules.
It doesn’t work that way mate, and hasn’t for the entire 9th edition.
I’m the category of Fights First (charging, fights first abilities etc), the player who’s turn it is selects first. Therefore whatever charged the Lion is going to strike first.
In the middle step (which is generally only relevant in consecutive fight phases), the defending player nominates a unit first.

 vipoid wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Another example of someone who doesn’t understand the rules complaining about people who do.
Fight first doesn’t help you if you get charged...

Of course it does.

Because when you charge, it's your opponent who gets to choose the first unit to fight.

Normally, they can't choose anything because all your stuff will have Fight First as a result of charging. However, if your opponent also has a unit with Fight First, then it will get to fight before any of your charging units.

litterally not how it works. Fight first as a rule has been pretty much the same since 8th and basically only gives you a free interrupt if you get charged with 2+ squads.

Maybe don't accuse me of not knowing the rules when you can't fething read:

 vipoid wrote:


Maybe don't accuse me of not knowing the rules when you can't fething read:

Rules appendix :

ALWAYS FIGHT FIRST/LAST
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

not blaming you, this just shows how fethed the rules distribution currently is lol

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Maybe don't accuse me of not knowing the rules when you can't fething read:

Rules appendix :

ALWAYS FIGHT FIRST/LAST
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

not blaming you, this just shows how fethed the rules distribution currently is lol

That's just... ugh.

Fair enough, I guess. It seems I stand corrected.

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Maybe don't accuse me of not knowing the rules when you can't fething read:

Rules appendix :

ALWAYS FIGHT FIRST/LAST
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

not blaming you, this just shows how fethed the rules distribution currently is lol

That's just... ugh.

Fair enough, I guess. It seems I stand corrected.

Agreed, GW rules writing leaves a lot to be desired.
But this reiterates the point about the Lion and his defensive stats. He gets charged, he dies. We’ll see what 10th brings