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 Mr Nobody wrote:
I can't see if this has been discussed in this thread yet. so hopefully this isn't a repeat question. Do you think it is better for Ghazghkull to be by himself in a battlewagon or walk across the board with a mob of meganobs? What are the pros and cons of each choice? Is one better against certain builds?

As GW clarified that Thrakka+Makari is 19 transport capacity, riding a wagon isn't really a good option anymore. He just gains too much from walking around with MANz. His first ability is only active while leading a unit, and they provide him with a 4++ during the Waaagh! turn(s).

Best case, you go second, rapid ingress him during your Waaagh! round, laugh manically while you opponent struggles to shoot down all the 4++ MANz and then charge him into the biggest concentration of enemy units.

If you go first, you need to be a bit more careful, so deploy out of sight from things that can easily kill MANz and then declare Waaagh! the turn afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Nailed a bit of scrap to the first post to make it look proppa killy.

thanks!

Does anybody give a try to any other detachements than Bully boyz and the Dread Mob?

I saw quite a few reports about Speedmob. All of them in the mood like below.. Almost no reports about War Horde, Big hunt or Green tide…

From what I gathered, speed mob is great at the objective game, but really struggles with killing things. Ironically, green tide is its worst enemy. Armies with a hard-counter struggle to make a splash in competitive.

For Big Hunt, I think it's partly because it requires a significant investment into Beast Snagga units which not everyone will have enough of to warrant making reports as quickly since the range is still relatively new compared to the rest of the Ork range.

I think snaggas lack the toolset to become competitive. Squighogs have become super powerful, but also expensive as sin. Besides that they don't really have anything going for them besides beastsnagga boyz and two totally-not-a-battlewagon.
Any army built around beastsnagga units is probably better off using War Horde with other ork staples.

Green Tide I am a bit surprised by that there isn't that much on it, though I assume it's because moving 120 boyz isn't super exciting for most people or battle reports which is why we've boiled down to Dred Mob and Bully Boyz as the main sources of Ork battle reports.

Green tide is all over the beakie and necron communities, many already crying for a nerf. From what I can tell, they put warboss amd painboyz in three big mobs and just bog down midfield plus three more mobs in trukks or with weirdboy and usually supported by gretchin, stormboyz and a bunch of other random stuff.

 Tomsug wrote:


Does anybody give a try to any other detachements than Bully boyz and the Dread Mob?

I'm going to be running Big Hunt because I was already running almost exclusively Snagga units in my lists. I haven't actually had the time to get any games in though.

The gameplan is to bog the centre of the board with Hunta Rigs full of Snagga Boys with Beastbosses, while two smaller hog units secure flanks and hunt tanks. A big unit of hogs with a Surly Squigosaur to either soak damage or kill the biggest thing on the board.

Two Gretchin units, a unit of Stormboys, a unit of deffkoptas and a Weirdboy take care of nabbing objectives and holding the backfield.

It's functionally the same as my War Tribe lists, minus a unit of nobs (and my beloved Squiggoth, RIP), so I'm hoping it should have similar success. I never really had any issues regarding volume of attacks, so I'm hoping the trade off for AP will be worthwhile. Worst case scenario I'll just go back to War Tribe or whatever it's called now.


I think Green Tide's issues are that moving that many boys takes a long time, and painting them even longer. I personally wouldn't want to watch a YT batrep with Green Tide because it wouldn't be very interesting visually. However, it will do well in tournaments as a skew list and just be a damage gate for balanced lists, like Knights sometimes are.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I personally wouldn't want to watch a YT batrep with Green Tide because it wouldn't be very interesting visually. However, it will do well in tournaments as a skew list and just be a damage gate for balanced lists, like Knights sometimes are.

Well, this is a general topic - why most of the YT bat rep channels do not use a cut. 40k in 40min is the bright spot… I have to play the most of the on double speed and it sounds pretty crazy and makes the grim dark spirit little bit smurfy…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meta Monday on Reddit has the fresh first results about orks

Conlusion in the picture below and I add few tips what can we expect

- people are scared / interested in Green Tide, which in my opinion will suck on the end, after meta gears up to kill the boyz and people find, that playing 120 boyz kills you on clock.
- Bully boyz obviously roules and will rule until some nerfhammer kill the immortal MANz
- War Horde will come later as people come back from “discovering” to “have experience”.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, this should we expected

https://youtu.be/pszl7VK7vHY?si=jTteFbScngWItWkk

"You wont be able to play 120 boyz on the clock" keeps getting brought up as an argument, but is that really a problem for an experienced player? There have been people playing way more models on the clock before, and green tides of previous editions had more than twice as many models. Moving 6 blocks of 20 maximum is still rookie numbers for orks, and neither their attacks nor their saves are much of a problem when using a dice app. Last time I checked, movement trays haven't become illegal either.

I'm just so surprised that so many people keep talking about how tide (or dread mob) makes them run out of the clock. Is that a real problem for you guys? Because it absolutely isn't for me, if I think back to 5th edition kan wall times when every boy needed to be exactly 2" appart from all others not not get murdered by leafblower, playing a dread mob with a similar amount of models feels like walk in the park. I more often than not, I finish my games faster than any MEQ or eldar players in our group.

Feth, I just realized my dread mob army is almost a carbon copy of my 5th edition kan wall (kanz, boyz, lootas, big meks), but with MANz and deff dreads added in.
Well played, GW.

I feel like "you can't play green tide on the clock" is more aimed at people coming over from playing other, non-horde, armies and underestimating just how many models an Ork list can run. Any Guard, Tyranid or GSC player won't have that issue as they've probably been in the same boat previously.

As you said, movement trays and having your dice set up in pre-prepared blocks on 20 cut down on time enormously.

I think the main thing that would put people off of green tide is the building and painting that many models in the first place, assuming that they didn't already have 100+ boys in the first place.

A newer player or someone coming over from a different army probably isn't going to want to spend £300+ on just boys, and that's before any characters or any of the shiny toys.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I feel like "you can't play green tide on the clock" is more aimed at people coming over from playing other, non-horde, armies and underestimating just how many models an Ork list can run. Any Guard, Tyranid or GSC player won't have that issue as they've probably been in the same boat previously.

As you said, movement trays and having your dice set up in pre-prepared blocks on 20 cut down on time enormously.

I think the main thing that would put people off of green tide is the building and painting that many models in the first place, assuming that they didn't already have 100+ boys in the first place.

A newer player or someone coming over from a different army probably isn't going to want to spend £300+ on just boys, and that's before any characters or any of the shiny toys.

Yeah, this was my take as well, and given how most tournie players tend to be meta chasers that swap out armies as fast as they change their underwear, skew lists like Green Tide are one of the odd armies out where it's not as plug and play as a low model army like Custodes or Knights are. I think especially since GW has been pushing lower model counts as well in terms of unit sizes (e.g. boyz now capping at 20 man sizes) have made more people used to lower overall model counts in general and since usually the top dogs tend to be more elite armies anyways like Eldar/Tau/Marines it makes it so people are unprepared to deal with some of the realities of having a horde based list since netlisting only involves one part of the equation when actually playing with said models. That being said, like Afrodactyl mentioned, people used to horde armies won't have that issue but that is a potential barrier to entry to some of the less patient meta chasers.

I see.

120 boyz isn't that much for any ork veteran though and anyone who started during 7th or 8th will probably have that many from playing competitively at that time and anyone who started earlier will have that many because that's just how things go.

My only worry is that this might cause the numbers of that archetype to be highly skewed - if it is only played by veterans (and ork veterans have been proven to be extremely loyal to their army), the winrate might be much higher than it would be if metachasers would pick it up.

Yeah. Any sane metachaser will simply choose some other meta army than painting 120 boyz anyway

Yeah, honestly more scared to paint 120 boyz then play them. I am paiting 10 and i am taking my sweet time feth that...

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah. Any sane metachaser will simply choose some other meta army than painting 120 boyz anyway

And if they lack the sanity to let that dissuade them, they'll probably fit right in

I've done 30 boyz with an airbrush and I was surprised how fast it went. It has me tempted, but I need a better baseline of options, which sadly likely includes 20 BSBoyz before I lose my mind on the normal variety.

I'm going to try out a 1500 point Beast Snagga list against one of my local SoB players, so I'm not going cuthroat competitive with the list but I do want to make sure it can still pack a punch, so I wanted to see if our esteemed Warbosses in here can knock my 'ead a bit on what I have listed down so far:

Da Big Hunt Detachment:

Beastboss on Squigosaur - 160
Enhancement: Glory Hog

Beastboss on Squigosaur - 150
Enhancement: Surly as a Squiggoth

Beastboss - 95
Enhancement: Proper Killy

Beastboss - 80

10 Beast Snagga Boyz - 105

10 Beast Snagga Boyz - 105

10 Gretchin, 1 Runtherd - 40

3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Nob on Smasha Squig - 160

3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Nob on Smasha Squig - 160

Hunta Rig - 150

Hunta Rig - 150

5 Stormboyz - 65

5 Stormboyz - 65

My main debate is if I should take Kill Rigs instead of Hunta Rigs and swap out the stormboyz for Trukks to carry the beast snagga boyz. I'm also not sure if I should aim for a full 6 man block squighog boy unit with the surly as a squiggoth or glory hog beastboss on squigosaur. I'm also considering maybe dropping one of the Beastbosses for Snikrot to take advantage of his lone operative and teleport ability.

What do you guys think?

What is your plan for handling Castigators or Exorcists?

Most of the sister's units will try to get close to shoot, but I don't think you can afford to weather heavy artillery shelling you from a safe distance all game.

 Jidmah wrote:
What is your plan for handling Castigators or Exorcists?

Most of the sister's units will try to get close to shoot, but I don't think you can afford to weather heavy artillery shelling you from a safe distance all game.

That was my main concern, I'm debating on using the glory hog unit to apply pressure to them if they're not screened properly or using the strat to put the other squighog unit into strategic reserves so I can try and potentially get a 8" rerollable charge if I make them prey on my turn.

What are your thoughts on running small 5 man units of Flash gitz for 80 points?

I never gave it any thought untill i saw some people running them in lists.

Tried to run a 5 man unit in my Bully Boyz unit (because i had a trukk with 5 nobz and 1 warboss, and i wanted to fill out the rest of the transport with something cheap) but they didnt do much. Though that was my fault they didnt do much.

So i didnt really get a good feeling of them. Have you guys tried them?

Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.

My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.

If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.

I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.

Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.

Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.

My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.

If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.

I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.

Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.

Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.

Math time!

Normally, Flash Gitz average 3 hits per 6 shots. 4 misses, 1 hit, 1 Sustained Hit.
Heavy increases that to 4 hits per 6.
Gun-Crazy Showoffs doesn't touch that, but does increase shot count by 33%.

So, simple math later...

Neither
3/2 hits per Git

Heavy
2 hits per Git

Gun-Crazy Showoffs
2 hits per Git

Both!
8/3 hits per Git

So, your instinct isn't right-they're equal in effect, so no need to prioritize one over the other.
But movement is valuable, so if you can get them nearer an Objective and get Gun Crazy... Nice.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.

My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.

If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.

I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.

Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.

Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.

yea. And on top of that if you want, they are essentially beast snagga boys in Melee combat too. So they can trash a decent potion of battleline infantry there too.

On the waaagh, 20 attacks, str 6 ap1 dmg 1 isnt too bad for just 5 models at 80 points, that can also shoot and have 2 wounds each.

Meta Monday on Reddit shows pretty helthy amount of ork lists, with the following with the detachements sucesfull in the following order

1. Bully
2. Green tide
3. War horde

Makes sense. War horde was already the kind of list people were prepared for previous Ork lists, so the meta has to adjust for an infantry heavy army of Green Tide and the ability for Orks to double tap on the WAAAGH! for units like Meganobz.

I'm just happy I can finally play speed freaks in a way that makes sense. I.E. The way I've always played them and always lost games. (Because being thematic is cooler than winning...well sometimes).

The squig flinging strategem is amazing. That + regular boyz getting sticky objectives.

Doesn't work well on DG though...grrrrr, opposing player stickies!

Agreed. The actual detachment itself is good and the strats are not bad, it just sucks that half of the speed freeks roster's weakness is tied to their datasheets just being fundamentally bad. You really have to lean on the Faster Than Yooz unit to do the heavy lifting in terms of damage and losing Nob Bikerz/Warboss on Warbike doesn't help. The shooting strats all just lend themselves to big units like Deffkoptas but don't work well with single model units. I feel if you were able to choose up to 3 of the same unit when using the strat, it would be a better way to make some of the buggy units usuable. I think just the Kustom Boosta Blasta with their shooting debuff ability and the Shokkjump Dragsta's mobility are the only ones with utility otherwise. But man the Megatrakk Scrapjet's lack of damage output is unforgivable, especially compared to their peak back in 8th edition. Either they need a LOT more shots or better accuracy, not to mention a better melee profile. Rukkatrukk squigbuggy should just have their abilities go off on a 2+ since now their damage output is terrible, and I feel like the Boomdakka Snazzwagon has always had an identity crisis of what it wants to do as a sort of harassment unit. I think if it tied more to being a suicide bomber unit for dealing mortals it might have a better niche.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.

My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.

If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.

I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.

Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.

Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.

Math time!

Normally, Flash Gitz average 3 hits per 6 shots. 4 misses, 1 hit, 1 Sustained Hit.
Heavy increases that to 4 hits per 6.
Gun-Crazy Showoffs doesn't touch that, but does increase shot count by 33%.

So, simple math later...

Neither
3/2 hits per Git

Heavy
2 hits per Git

Gun-Crazy Showoffs
2 hits per Git

Both!
8/3 hits per Git

So, your instinct isn't right-they're equal in effect, so no need to prioritize one over the other.
But movement is valuable, so if you can get them nearer an Objective and get Gun Crazy... Nice.

Thanks for doing the math, but I'm fairly sure that just looking at averages doesn't cut it when comparing quality to quantity. For example, 3 shots at BS 5+ average the same hits as 2 shots at BS4+, but the three shots will always be superior due to having the ability to kill three models while two shots can never do that.

What is everyone running as of late? Is everybody still leaning hard into Bully Boyz?

I'm still trying Da Big Hunt and I've not been let down so far (it's by no means the strongest detachment, but it's still pretty good). That being said I have tweaked things a little, in particular dropping a Hunta Rig, Proper Killy from a Beastboss, and my beloved Deffkoptas, in favour of two trukks, a third Beastboss, and another unit of Stormboys. My second block of 20 Snaggas is now 2 blocks of 10 (with a boss each), as with all the hogs running around the second block of 20 felt quite clunky.

I've not played much since making the change, but so far it feels smooth to play with. I won't say it feels stronger, but it definitely just feels like it runs easier and like I have less to think about.

I have perfected the art of rolling the worst possible buff for dat button in almost every situation.

That said, so far I'm also undefeated - while I don't curb-stomp my opponents, I feel like dread mob gives me all the tools to safely drive home even a small lead as well as turn around a losing game by super-charging a shooting unit on demand.

1. Aprox 4 ways to play and win with the new codex and 2 more obviously not so great but fun
2. Read the Meta Monday reddit comments and there is no moaning about “broken MANz / green tide lists” at all.

Both are great news!

Jidmah wrote:I have perfected the art of rolling the worst possible buff for dat button in almost every situation.

That said, so far I'm also undefeated - while I don't curb-stomp my opponents, I feel like dread mob gives me all the tools to safely drive home even a small lead as well as turn around a losing game by super-charging a shooting unit on demand.

Nice one! What does your list look like?

Tomsug wrote:1. Aprox 4 ways to play and win with the new codex and 2 more obviously not so great but fun
2. Read the Meta Monday reddit comments and there is no moaning about “broken MANz / green tide lists” at all.

Both are great news!

Reddit is still kinda feral about Bully Boyz and Green Tide, but people seem to be coming round on the issue being that MANz are now just a smidge too cheap.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Nice one! What does your list look like?

Roughly like this:


Though I regularly switch it up by replacing the mek guns and some kanz with a naut or a pair of SJD and extra gretchin whenever I can fit them.
It's really too bad that Ufthak is legends only, having a unit of 22 shooty stormboyz could be a great assent to tournament players. I'd probably drop the second mob without him.

Reddit is still kinda feral about Bully Boyz and Green Tide, but people seem to be coming round on the issue being that MANz are now just a smidge too cheap.

I feel most people are just venting the frustration of not being able to kill certain ork lists. It kind of a gear check thing, similar to how knights were in the past. Neither bully boyz MANz nor green tides are winning many tournaments, but anyone who wants to do well needs to be able to beat them.

How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?

Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.


I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.

As far as Green Tide is concerned, if it's good into Plaguebearers it's probably going to do well against Boyz spam.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?

Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.


I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.

As far as Green Tide is concerned, if it's good into Plaguebearers it's probably going to do well against Boyz spam.

I've always found that Orks are often in a unique situation where people tend to villify our faction particularly hard when our army gets stronger on the competitive scene given that we're often memified online as a joke and "silly" army, so when we krump heads and force people to adapt to our army (usually because historically the online competitive lists we end up having are skew lists based on massed vehicles or infantry/specific units like Kan Wall in 5th, Buggy spam in 8th, Green Tide or occasionally stuff like Nob Bikerz) people tend to overreact seeing us an upstart that needs to be put in its place. Because usually "accepted" xenos factions like Eldar and Tau that usually cycle into the upper crust of competitiveness don't face the same level of vitriol that Orks do when they dominate (10th edition potentially excepted because even Eldar players couldn't BS into saying a 60-70% win rate was healthy). I think it also has to do partly with the fact that because GW usually writes us in with swingy rules due to our poor BS, so when we spike, we can spike hard and it messes with people's perceptions of Orks as being a joke army and that it forces people to use newer tactics than just trying to upgun other factions on the rerolls or protective abilities that you usually see when you have elite armies fighting each other.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?

Good enough, I guess?

They are kind of like wartribe boyz (duh!), and the double buff for both shooting and melee from da button makes them work. Unless I'm desperate, I never make use of the hazardous option and never use any stratagems on them.
The warboss mob's job is to walk up the flank with the least opposition and tag objectives while blocking movement to the area behind them. After my initial tests, I added the warboss so they don't bounce off well armored targets like LoV or marines during the Waaagh!.
18" might not sound like a lot, but the extra range really racks up a bunch of damage over the course of a game. The "heavy lifting" is done by the big mek's KMB and the two rokkits - they just add to all the other KMB and rokkits on the board, feels like having a unit of tank bustas hidden among your other units.

The Ufthak unit is essentially used like stormboyz were - they stick around in reserve to force people to protect their backfield. If the opponent fails to do that, they have 22 orks in their backfield with sufficient shooting to gun down typical backfield objective holders like gretchin, pox walkers, cultists, guardsmen and the like while still being able to charge and tag a second objective in one turn, for a potential 15 VP swing.
By turn 3, there usually is a hole big enough to deep strike them somewhere.

Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.

While they have a much shorter range than either flash gits or lootas, they feel like a more durable side-grade to either. They are extremely vulnerable to blasts though, you really need to make use of the big mek's Shokk-boosta to keep them away from units like aggressors and thunderkyn.

I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.

Eh, pretty much any unit with high damage melee attacks like big bugs, greater daemons, votann beserks, aberants and the like all plow right through them. They really don't like nauts or deff dreads with klanking klaws played on them either
Or Angron... by gork, keep them away from Angron *flashbacks playing*

Mine get stealth from the enhancement, if someone tries to take them down with shooting during the Waaagh! it really feels like playing 9th edition Mortarion - even if they die, they have soaked so much damage that I've won the game by the time they do. If my opponent has no answer to them, they just walk onto the middle objective and stay there, which is devastating to armies who want to do the same.
Guess who checks both boxes of "usually lacking the tools" and "wants to be in the middle"? Marines.