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Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Hey everyone, your friendly gallery mod here.

We've been discussing what Dakka's policy should be about posting AI generated images in the gallery and forums.

There is room for a robust discussion of the pros and cons of this emerging technology and what it means for the hobby, the gaming industry and the livelihood of writers, artists and other creators as well as the ethics of generating images drawn from the work of others. I know I have STRONG OPINONS on the subject myself. Happy to discuss them in the off-topic forum.

But we should not derail threads here to relitigate this debate every time an image is posted.

So...

AI-generated images can be posted in the gallery and forums, they should be tagged as "AI Generated" and voting disabled.

This is the same policy we have when people post images from rule books or other creators to use as reference.

("AI" unfortunately redirects to Aeronautica Imperialis, so please use "AI generated")

I would also recommend against flooding the gallery with variations on the same AI-generated content. Just like we don't want to see the same goblin 20 times photographed from every angle. There are forums dedicated entirely to the use of AI and showing off AI-generated work, this ain't one of them.

In the end this is a forum for discussing our hobby and showing off our work, I don't want to exclude people who use IA-generated imaged, but I don't want them to overwhelm us either.

Sound fair?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/22 04:06:31


 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




USA

As an illustrator myself, I despise AI trash and feel it should be excluded in any media in which real art and talent is shared.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra

I agree. I would prefer for it to be excluded entirely from the gallery. It serves no purpose here.

"Calgar hates Tyranids."

Your #1 Fan  
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Servitor and/or mentat generated images OK?

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion."

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Exclude AI-generated would be preferable. What point does it serve allowing?
   
Made in nl
Armored Iron Breaker






Struggling about in Asmos territory.

The only way to prevent AI destroying the creative-industry is by banning it everywhere, so I am for exclusion.

"Why would i be lying for Wechhudrs sake man.., i do not write fiction!"

 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







I think there is a valid use case for non-artists to use it to do some conceptual prototyping, before turning it into a physical paint scheme or conversion.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Flinty wrote:
I think there is a valid use case for non-artists to use it to do some conceptual prototyping, before turning it into a physical paint scheme or conversion.

People were doing that before AI by simply using MS paint.

No exceptions.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Given this is a forum for miniatures, I'm not really sure on what would be the purpose of posting AI images in the first place. Are people going to generate an AI image of a miniature?

Unless it's for taking an image of a miniature and making it cooler, say generating a background for it, I'd be down for that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/22 16:48:30


 
   
Made in us
Crackshot Kelermorph with 3 Pistols






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Given this is a forum for miniatures, I'm not really sure the what would be the purpose of posting AI images in the first place. Are people going to generate an AI image of a miniature?

Unless it's for taking an image of a miniature and making it cooler, say generating a background for it, I'd be down for that.


this is my thought. i don't love AI image generation, but i'm not so rabidly against it like other people (the biggest issues with it are labor-focused, not a matter of quality). it makes for a neat tool, and i can see it having some use on a site like this, but not a whole lot. i wouldn't expect to see a lot of AI images in the gallery, anyway

she/her 
   
Made in gb
Angry Chaos Agitator





The solution that has been suggest in the OP sounds fair to me. The only suggestion I have is possibly a blanket-ban on AI-only threads? I don't imagine it would be much of an issue, but there's not a lot of point in someone making a thread just to share their AI generations. Could be interesting to have a pinned thread somewhere instead? A central place for people to share and discuss AI art and its relation to miniatures. That might be a way to keep it more 'out of sight' for people who don't want to interact with it.


AI sucks and is bad for artists. We all know this, and we all hate it. Sorry, but it is here and it is here to stay. Get used to it - it's not going anywhere. "AI generated art" isn't even descriptive; there's a million ways to actually generate art through a computer and you can't ever stop it now. That's the world.

The only issue worth discussing in regards to the future of AI art is copyright and the theft of work. A lot of the damage has been done already, but if you want to make a difference, then you have to do something to prevent the scraping of new images by software. Nightshade is an important step in this. If Dakka - or anyone - wants to 'fight back', look at Nightshade or any other emerging 'AI-poisoning' tools and implement them into your workflow.

Of course there is a valid place for AI generated images. Are you going to ban sketches? Photoshop? It's a tool people can use to inform their miniatures. There's plenty of artists on the wider internet using it as a starting point to create from. The stubborn can avoid it forever if they want to, but there's a lot of people out there who are learning to use it in interesting ways.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/22 20:25:27


 
   
Made in us
Crackshot Kelermorph with 3 Pistols






shmvo wrote:


The only issue worth discussing in regards to the future of AI art is copyright and the theft of work. A lot of the damage has been done already, but if you want to make a difference, then you have to do something to prevent the scraping of new images by software. Nightshade is an important step in this. If Dakka - or anyone - wants to 'fight back', look at Nightshade or any other emerging 'AI-poisoning' tools and implement them into your workflow.


unfortunately, nightshade doesn't really work like people say it does. in theory, it's essentially digital tree spiking, but in practice, the effect it has is fairly negligible, since most existing datasets have already been trained, and new datasets are being trained in ways that can get around it (use it if you want, i just feel it's worth warning that it may not have the effect you want)

she/her 
   
Made in fi
Posts with Authority






what about using AI generated background masks with your miniatures pics? That allowed? There, the idea is just to project something more appropriate as a backdrop than a gradient or a single-coloured surface

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/22 22:05:06


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Oh Canada!

Generative AI as it stands (with all its ethics issues) has no place in creative spaces. I am in favour of a blanket ban.
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

First of all thank you all for chiming in and I encourage others to do the same.

The policy has been blessed by higher ups, but things can always change, we are after all a community. And I hope I made it clear that I have STRONG FEELINGS about as well. The fact I say AI-Generated images rather than AI art is just the beginning.

For the reoccurring question of what role these images serve, I think that's been well answered. Just like a Google image search or artwork from an existing source AI-generated images can serve as inspiration, or to illustrate something. I look back to some of the long fluff articles I did on civilian life and AI-generated images would be great to better show some of the ideas.

But, just as with using existing art, I would never take credit for something a machine cobbled together from thousands of existing images.

Which is why I ask for people to disable voting and clearly tag them (which we also ask when you post someone else's work). If nothing else it avoids embarrassment as posters praise someone's work.

As with any other image posted, they should be on topic. I like the idea of NO AI-ONLY THREADS, since they should be here to supplement modelling or story posts, not replace them.

As for a total ban... Again I'm ambivalent. We've fretted in the past about banning GW artwork to avoid possible entanglements but clearly tagging them seems to have worked. Plus as some pointed out it will become increasingly hard, especially as programs like Photoshop integrate AI imaging into their functionality.

To be clear, I do not want to see this board overwhelmed with countless 7-fingered off-model Space Marine images, even if posted as a joke. And if it reaches that point then things will have to be reconsidered.

But I don't want to ban a modest number of on-topic uses of AI tools.


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Central Cimmeria

I'd vote blanket ban.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

Here's a campaign I'm working on for legions where I've used bing ai image generator and photoshop, I think the rational reaction to this free boiler plate system campaign map that anyone can use is to over react.

Spoiler:



https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/787202.page#11651976


The images inspire the landscapes/boards/terrain of the games.

Spoiler:


Campaign maps and artwork:

Spoiler:
Working on campaign maps stuff, working off of PeterHolland1's 30k galaxy map https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWarhammer/comments/175t8jm/30k_galaxy_map_wip/ I have an area in the galactic south I'm calling the cygnus cluster. 7 systems in relatively close proximity to one another. I'm gonna have fairly boilerplate background on each system, which focusses on the most important planet in said system. One of the systems/planets is the home planet for my solar aux, the 317th sathanas hoplites. Some of the planets were sampled from the original dune.





The background for each main planet in contention is basically just give some inspiration for board/terrain setups. I don't know if I'm feeling ambitious enough to have a different battle mat for each planet but I'll see what comes to pass. The names are mostly inspired by video games/movies/what sounded good. I spent a lot of time generating art/story boards for each planet using bing AI image generator, which reddit seems to dislike quite a bit. Doing 30k blank slate sorta fluff isn't easy

If I had to give every planet/system a theme/vibe I'd say:

Rolk's Drift: A very alien looking blue planet with pink and purple foliage and strange alien ruins, there are settlements but many are in a state of war with one another, but several exist in open trade and with well kept road networks. Its primary industry is the mining and export of precious gems. The system operates entirely outside of imperial control and is largely ignored in exchange for access to sites of alien ruins and trade in xenos artifacts. Large pools of brightly colored unknown chemicals dot the land in areas with heavy mining.










Sathanas: Former splinter colony recently brought back into the imperial fold, dark amber red sands and largely ruin covered wasteland, light vegetation. Primary industry imperial recruitment and rare salvage.











Quinrox Sound: Largely tropical climate, several large oceans and seas with a lot rivers, mountainous in land terrain, countless islands and varied archipelago. Settlements are largely coastal, and shipping is primarily done by surface ship. Main industries are fisheries and cultivation and export of exotic fruit from highly secure plantations of predated by raiders and pirates as the black market value and trade in exotic fruit commands a considerable amount from Capella and other richer imperial systems.












Atria IV: Slightly mountainous jungles and golden tall grass covered savannahs that give way to marshlands and small desert belt, Several oceans and seas, extensive rivers and lakes. Main industries are manufacturing of rejuvenate drugs, local largely tribal populace trade heavily in meat of scaled savannah-dwelling predators. There is heavy black market and smuggler presence as the system is lightly policed by imperial forces. Significant militia presence guard the rejuvenate manufacturing facilities located in largely ignored swampland.

















Deneb: Fertile green farmland spanning the entire surface. The planet is in fact Deneb II however Deneb prime is a massive ringed planet rendered completely uninhabitable due to it's proximity to the system's star which renders it a radioactive wasteland. Deneb II is an agriworld and the bread basket that is critical to the survival of countless galactic neighbors. It's primary exports are fresh produce and meat as well as grain, it secondary industries involve tourism.












Geist III: A charred black landscape dotted in occasional craters and a lot of heavy industry. The planet is volcanically active but rich in mineral deposits. It's fairly large moon is home to manufacturing and administration while Geist III itself is concerned mostly with extraction and refining.











Capella: The wealthiest and most populace sector, looked on with envy by its galactic neighbors. Extensive orbital installations, platforms and shipyards immediately separate and signify Capella as the de-facto capital of this region of the void . Largely arid with some mountainous regions, surface is also dotted in oceans, the wealthy gamble in sea side casinos and abscond in red light districts, in land cities focusing largely on commerce and luxury goods. A highly segregated society, large worker habs fill out the inner continents. Some habs classified as slums, with heavy arbite presence. Main industry are military and weapons manufacturing and leisure and hospitality.











This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2024/04/03 20:21:57


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Angry Chaos Agitator





That's an awesome looking legions project! I'll have to read through that all at some point... I like the use of AI as general background atmosphere that helps visually describe the feel of the locations.

...And it's a perfect case-study for how ridiculous banning AI images in online circles is. You take opportunities for creative expression away from hobbyists and people without a lot of experience/ time/ money. Whilst it does absolutely nothing to stop the use of AI by large businesses - which are the ones who are actually going to use AI replace real jobs in the coming years. You take away the legitimate and interesting uses of AI images whilst not doing anything to combat the negative aspects of it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/23 16:16:13


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

shmvo wrote:
That's an awesome looking legions project! I'll have to read through that all at some point... I like the use of AI as general background atmosphere that helps visually describe the feel of the locations.

...And it's a perfect case-study for how ridiculous banning AI images in online circles is. You take opportunities for creative expression away from hobbyists and people without a lot of experience/ time/ money. Whilst it does absolutely nothing to stop the use of AI by large businesses - which are the one who are actually going to us AI replace real jobs in the coming years. You take away the legitimate and interesting uses of AI images whilst not doing anything to combat the negative aspects of it.


That's what I find odd about the less than nuanced stance people take, it throws context out of the window. I get people's revulsion to business commercializing ai artwork, at the same time it's basically impossible to combat. But game resources like world building and campaign stuff, event posters not made in ms paint, these aren't things people are commissioning artists to create.

There's also the problem of composite work combining real imagery and ai generated imagery, as others have mentioned, generating a background for an army photo to declutter what may be a less than negative space but have ai or a mix of ai and photoshop make a sky or some sort of pleasant background that compliments that army photo. There are already applications that utilize ai for smart selection/cropping/cutting out part of images ect. Photoshop has implemented ai that is generative as well.

I understand the concern about AI generated imagery flooding the gallery, but I don't believe that's occurred yet, nor is it likely to as the focus of the board still seems largely hobby centric with modelling and gaming and painting as the most common subject matter both visually and post-wise.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/24 17:07:47


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in nl
Armored Iron Breaker






Struggling about in Asmos territory.

It isn't impossible to combat, there is an unwillingness to combat because people tend to see power in it and are mesmerized by it.
Regardless, I will always combat AI.

"Why would i be lying for Wechhudrs sake man.., i do not write fiction!"

 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Yeah, I only like single player games as well.

I just see massive parallels to the Industrial Revolution and automation of cloth production. Just because machines have taken over the baseline production of cloth doesn’t mean that there isn’t a massive industry of artisanal production.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf







I mentioned I wasn't sure on reasons for posting AI images other than backgrounds for minis, hadn't thought of materials for campaigns, that's a cool idea, and as you say, it's not like you have the budget to hire a professional anyway.

Unless you ask them to do it for exposure, but I'm not sure if that would offend them more or less than just using AI


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Leopold Helveine wrote:
It isn't impossible to combat, there is an unwillingness to combat because people tend to see power in it and are mesmerized by it.
Regardless, I will always combat AI.


Context is important though, Dakka isn't exactly flooded with professionally generated artwork that would compete with AI in the first place (other than commission painted miniatures, but AI isn't doing anything to compete in the realm of physical painted models).

I think AI is going to change the way we do a lot of stuff, you can combat it but unless you're bringing in regulation to ban it, companies are going to do what's best for their bottom line, and that's what's going to hurt artists. What a bunch of hobbyists, who would rarely to never commission a professional digital artwork anyway, do on a random forum isn't going to change anything.

I get students occasionally submitting AI generated work, and it's usually obvious because it uses a whole lot of words to say nothing meaningful, but I'm sure as it improves it's going to get harder to tell something made by a human from something made by AI, except the AI generated one will take seconds versus days for the human.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/24 16:48:44


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Leopold Helveine wrote:
It isn't impossible to combat, there is an unwillingness to combat because people tend to see power in it and are mesmerized by it.
Regardless, I will always combat AI.


What about images that are composites of two or more images? What if the subject is real but the background is ai generated? If a human still had to use photoshop to bring the two images together, is that ok? Context and nuance really start to eat away at "combatting ai".

Spoiler:


Spoiler:






This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/04/03 20:22:34


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard






Just like you would credit the artist, laber the piece with (Ai - Generated) and that is it

Lolz
Eldar "amazing technological advancements" automated life essentials and freed the Eldar to focus on Art and Music.
Human "amazing technological advancements" automated art and music and "freed" the Umies to focus on manual maintenance labor of the life essentials.

On the side note:
Spoiler:

(As an artist) AI-art tech is a bit gimmicky, mostly useless, and dependant on the database of real artist through out history, who are never credited. It is still way faster for me to concept and paint exactly what I want rather than to randomly generate images and hope that some will end up like I need them too.
How about some AI tech that could reduce development and production costs that would translate to the end user hu? How about some useful tech, that makes things actually affordable!
Food, transportation, housing grows in price like crazy while AI is painting pretty pictures from database of real art.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/24 21:04:28


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Going to agree with Crablezworth here that looks great and is definitely on topic!

"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Llamahead wrote:
Going to agree with Crablezworth here that looks great and is definitely on topic!

It also takes someone else's art, uncredited, and basically pretends to be "original".

There's a reason why a bunch of these companies are in trouble after their "training set" has been found to just be scraping & copying for the output.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Llamahead wrote:
Going to agree with Crablezworth here that looks great and is definitely on topic!

It also takes someone else's art, uncredited, and basically pretends to be "original".

There's a reason why a bunch of these companies are in trouble after their "training set" has been found to just be scraping & copying for the output.


I'm constantly inundated with tik-toks that don't appear to credit the musical artist that is being danced to. A shame really, I'm sure said unknown artist would want to be associated with random teenager dancing in costco

With ever increasing size of data trained on and access to the internet, it's a bit hard to parse out who to credit when its everyone. If a prompt involved "in the style of mc echer" or something sure, if the prompt was "make a cute can and a nice sunset" much hard to parse out.

The 40k universe does its share of "borrowing" and "inspiration", that hasn't been lost as people experience dune who may have missed the 1984 version.


Spoiler:



I think tagging AI art is fine in terms of gallery policy, but a lot of stuff might be composite, or partially ai generated.



Any ability to verify stuff though is a bit merky on the enforcement end. This pic I posted like 14 years ago is photoshop, but could be confused as "partially ai". (obv date puts that into question, but just an example of a composite thats not ai related)

Spoiler:

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2024/03/26 01:14:20


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Crackshot Kelermorph with 3 Pistols






 Crablezworth wrote:
Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Llamahead wrote:
Going to agree with Crablezworth here that looks great and is definitely on topic!

It also takes someone else's art, uncredited, and basically pretends to be "original".

There's a reason why a bunch of these companies are in trouble after their "training set" has been found to just be scraping & copying for the output.


I'm constantly inundated with tik-toks that don't appear to credit the musical artist that is being danced to. A shame really, I'm sure said unknown artist would want to be associated with random teenager dancing in costco

With ever increasing size of data trained on and access to the internet, it's a bit hard to parse out who to credit when its everyone. If a prompt involved "in the style of mc echer" or something sure, if the prompt was "make a cute can and a nice sunset" much hard to parse out.

The 40k universe does its share of "borrowing" and "inspiration", that hasn't been lost as people experience dune who may have missed the 1984 version.





I think tagging AI art is fine in terms of gallery policy, but a lot of stuff might be composite, or partially ai generated.



yeah, perhaps there should be a few different tags for ai, so there can be a bit more specificity? as discussed, there's a big difference between using ai to generate a background for a model, and using it for something substantial, so we should be able to tell the two apart

she/her 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





London, UK

I'm on board with Crablezworth here too. I have used AI generated images as fluff enhancement for my own campaigns like the 40k Crusade I did a few years ago. I think using AI in this context is fine.

Mordrax Crusade Campaign

   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Crablezworth wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Llamahead wrote:
Going to agree with Crablezworth here that looks great and is definitely on topic!

It also takes someone else's art, uncredited, and basically pretends to be "original".

There's a reason why a bunch of these companies are in trouble after their "training set" has been found to just be scraping & copying for the output.


I'm constantly inundated with tik-toks that don't appear to credit the musical artist that is being danced to. A shame really, I'm sure said unknown artist would want to be associated with random teenager dancing in costco


None of those tiktokers are claiming the music used is their own creative work.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
 
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