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Lord Zarkov wrote: Sectarianism is very much a problem across the Imperium, including ethnic sectarianism like on Necromunda (though GW is generally careful not to write about skin colour racism for obvious and sensible reasons). But the top level institutions are by necessity so large and diverse (not to mention well disconnected from concerns of the people) that any of the things people fight over at the planetary level are just not relevant.
Hence there’s pretty much no discrimination in the actual Imperial institutions, other than a small number of bodies (3?) that are gender-segregated for in-universe historical reasons.
Yeah, absolutely agreed. (obviously, we mustn't forget that things which are gender segregated for in universe reasons are still ultimately fabricated and subject to potential change or external justification, but yes, there are a *few* areas where gender is a factor - and of all of them, only one is for "biological" reasons).
The Imperium is awful, yes. It's awful because of what it does to fictional aliens. It's awful because of the sheer scale of its disregard for ALL human life. It's awful because it is a world which doesn't care about you, or your family, or even your planet.
It is NOT awful because of real world bigotry. Never has been. Textually, the Imperium *is not institutionally sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic*. You're making up a headcanon here.
One of the things I would like to point out is that this particular piece of headcanon is common as a reaction to actual sexism/racism/etc. contained in the lore.
It should surprise no one that science fiction from 40+ years ago overlooks the roles of women and minorities. The creators had a blind spot that they shared with most of their culture (40k is far from alone in this)
But since 40k has endured past many challenges to those old paradigms and assumptions, fans and creators have had to justify why the portrayal isn't more diverse.
With the clearly oppressive Imperium, it isn't such a huge leap to blame those oversights on Imperial oppressive tendencies.
I think that people are bothered because they see this as contradicting that headcanon justification more than the scant actual lore it contradicts.
I think if they wanted more women in the Talons of the Emperor they should have focused more on the Sisters of the Silence fluff, really. I don't think there's much about them, is there?
There is a good chunk in the Talons of the Emperor novel with Aleya's chapters filling a good third of it. But more on that front would've been nice in any case. That being said, I also don't see how female Custodes preclude that from happening in the future.
Well, did the Sisters of Silence get anything new and noteworthy in the new codex? Because if not, then evidently it does preclude them from getting new stuff, because they already made that decision.
Well, not "evidently" at all - it's only "evidently" if you can prove that GW choosing to write about a woman Custodian directly prevented them from adding material for the Sisters of Silence specifically.
Otherwise, you might as well claim that GW choosing to write about women Custodes also evidently precludes them from writing Eldar Exodite lore.
Well, did the Sisters of Silence get anything new and noteworthy in the new codex? Because if not, then evidently it does preclude them from getting new stuff, because they already made that decision.
This is looking awfully like that time the Sisters of Battle were neglected for over a decade.
Anything new as in new lore? I don't know, I don't own the book. It's till a non-sequitur to claim that the one thing is a result of the other.
The Imperium is awful, yes. It's awful because of what it does to fictional aliens. It's awful because of the sheer scale of its disregard for ALL human life. It's awful because it is a world which doesn't care about you, or your family, or even your planet.
It is NOT awful because of real world bigotry. Never has been. Textually, the Imperium *is not institutionally sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic*. You're making up a headcanon here.
One of the things I would like to point out is that this particular piece of headcanon is common as a reaction to actual sexism/racism/etc. contained in the lore.
Pardon me for asking, but what instances are you referring to?
It should surprise no one that science fiction from 40+ years ago overlooks the roles of women and minorities. The creators had a blind spot that they shared with most of their culture (40k is far from alone in this)
Oh, certainly - that's why we're only now just getting women Custodes or Ultramarines who aren't pasty white dudes.
I dunno, it does seem odd.
They could have added more fluff about the SoS, but they decided to give Custodes women instead, even though the Sister of Silence are the female counterparts to the Custodes.
Are Eldar Exodites part of the same codex? No? When then, its not the same now is it?
Now if they did actually give the SoS something then I'm happy to be wrong, but if not then that hardly seems right, now does it?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
As I understand it, no models for SoS, but having a Detachment specifically designed for them is significant, and likely includes some abilities that weren't present before.
What I want most for SoS is a thing that it would be very easy for GW to give us at any time: a 40k index card for the Acquisitor. I'd be fine if it was Legends.
Also: In 8th, the White Dwarf SoS Index, specific mention was made of SoS working with the Inquisition during the Indomitus era- which was reinforced by their inclusion in Ashes of Faith. If rumours are true and an Agents dex is coming, there is an outside chance that an additional SoS unit may appear in it instead of the dex. It may also only be usable as an Agent unit if it does appear.
Ain't sayin' it's likely, just that it's possible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/04/21 17:31:34
PenitentJake wrote: As I understand it, no models for SoS, but having a Detachment specifically designed for them is significant, and likely includes some abilities that weren't present before.
What I want most for SoS is a thing that it would be very easy for GW to give us at any time: a 40k index card for the Acquisitor. I'd be fine if it was Legends.
Also: In 8th, the White Dwarf SoS Index, specific mention was made of SoS working with the Inquisition during the Indomitus era- which was reinforced by their inclusion in Ashes of Faith. If rumours are true and an Agents dex is coming, there is an outside chance that an additional SoS unit may appear there.
Oh, that's good then. I was worried that they might be neglected for at least a decade in favor of their Space Marine but Better counterparts. Sort of like how the Sisters of Battle were neglected for at least a decade in favor of Space Marines.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
The Decree Passive is based on a gender neutral term being conflated as gender specific as a gotcha. The prohibition against “men under arms” was clearly meant to be a prohibition against armed humans. But the Ecclisiarchy decided to be smart-ass rules lawyers to deliberately misread the Decree Oassive as allowing women. With that mindset, you better believe they’ll find a way to allow transwomen in the SoB.
Frankly, if they were in a tight spot recruiting wise, I’d expect them to play trickier word games to redefine who doesn’t count as a “man” under arms.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Decree Passive is based on a gender neutral term being conflated as gender specific as a gotcha. The prohibition against “men under arms” was clearly meant to be a prohibition against armed humans. But the Ecclisiarchy decided to be smart-ass rules lawyers to deliberately misread the Decree Oassive as allowing women. With that mindset, you better believe they’ll find a way to allow transwomen in the SoB.
Frankly, if they were in a tight spot recruiting wise, I’d expect them to play trickier word games to redefine who doesn’t count as a “man” under arms.
We should be thankful that they aren't Greek philosophers. Otherwise we might see featherless bipeds in the ranks of the Sororitas.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Did we not have the discussion where we contrast that against Sanguinius identifying Custodes as men and women?
(Arguments that these are Sisters of Silence are refuted by the fact that elsewhere in the book, Sanguinius can identify nearby SoS because of his psionic affinity).
I confess I may have missed that argument or citation. But it is interesting. Is that a Black Library thing?
[/i]
Yes, it is from Echoes of Eternity in 2022.
Apparently the BL authors tried to add in female custodes six years ago, but there was a mandate from corporate against it
Right, that is the trash taken out and permanently removed from this site. Again a massive thanks to those who are discussing in good faith and within the rules. For those who struggle to remember what they are the main one is to be polite, and that includes keeping your vile little opinions to yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/21 18:31:51
BobtheInquisitor wrote:The Decree Passive is based on a gender neutral term being conflated as gender specific as a gotcha. The prohibition against “men under arms” was clearly meant to be a prohibition against armed humans. But the Ecclisiarchy decided to be smart-ass rules lawyers to deliberately misread the Decree Oassive as allowing women. With that mindset, you better believe they’ll find a way to allow transwomen in the SoB.
Frankly, if they were in a tight spot recruiting wise, I’d expect them to play trickier word games to redefine who doesn’t count as a “man” under arms.
The loophole was used by the same person who came up with the decree in the first place (Sebastian Thor) so it was clearly intentional. If I were to speculate it’s because they needed both to largely disarm the Ecclesiarchy and also do something with the Daughters/Brides of the Emperor who were somewhat inconvenient but also heroines of the Imperium having executed Vandire and whose leaders had received a rare personal audience with the Emperor.
The combination of the Decree Passive and ‘well the Adepta Sororitas aren’t technically men’ seems a classic fudge to solve both issues.
Also the Decree is frequently flouted in letter as well as spirit, it’s just breaches are generally ignored as long as it remains relatively low level and no one takes the mick.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I dunno, it does seem odd.
They could have added more fluff about the SoS, but they decided to give Custodes women instead, even though the Sister of Silence are the female counterparts to the Custodes.
Are Eldar Exodites part of the same codex? No? When then, its not the same now is it?
Now if they did actually give the SoS something then I'm happy to be wrong, but if not then that hardly seems right, now does it?
All they did was use female pronouns for a story that would probably have been in the book anyway, makes no difference to whether there would or would not have been any extra SofS stories.
The Imperium is awful, yes. It's awful because of what it does to fictional aliens. It's awful because of the sheer scale of its disregard for ALL human life. It's awful because it is a world which doesn't care about you, or your family, or even your planet.
It is NOT awful because of real world bigotry. Never has been. Textually, the Imperium *is not institutionally sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic*. You're making up a headcanon here.
One of the things I would like to point out is that this particular piece of headcanon is common as a reaction to actual sexism/racism/etc. contained in the lore.
It should surprise no one that science fiction from 40+ years ago overlooks the roles of women and minorities. The creators had a blind spot that they shared with most of their culture (40k is far from alone in this)
But since 40k has endured past many challenges to those old paradigms and assumptions, fans and creators have had to justify why the portrayal isn't more diverse.
With the clearly oppressive Imperium, it isn't such a huge leap to blame those oversights on Imperial oppressive tendencies.
I think that people are bothered because they see this as contradicting that headcanon justification more than the scant actual lore it contradicts.
Books wise at least, the Imperium hasn’t really been seen to demonstrate inward, real world awfulness. Male or female, the Guard will take you. The Ad Mech has persons who’ve moved beyond human gender identity as a way of moving closer to the perfection of the machine. Not exactly trans or non-binary, more asexuality taken about as far as it can go. Hopefully I’m wording this well, and apologise in advance for any ham fisted wording.
We’ve not really seen anyone denied office or position because of their sex or gender. The class system extant on many Imperial Worlds isn’t based on your religion, skin tone, etc. It’s more there’s very limited upward mobility, so you tend to stay in whichever societal strata you were born into. One way out is the Guard, where Regiments have been awarded worlds, and with it higher position for even a retired Private.
It’s an awful, awful society. But entirely perversely, has moved beyond the pretty petty bigotries of the real world. And when a given organisation (Astartes, Sorortias, Sisters of Silence) do have discriminatory recruitment practices? There’s an in-universe reason. Not necessarily a good reason mind you, but a reason all the same.
As I speculated in the Background Thread, it may be entirely possible to tweak the Astartes modification process to work on women. But, given the result of doing so wouldn’t provide a superior example of Astartes? It’d be a pointless endeavour, when you can just go with the standard process, whittle down the prospects, stuff the successful ones with the worky bits, and then hope they don’t explode.
Sororitas of course exist because someone sucks at writing legislation.
Sisters of Silence? There’s something hinky going on there. Blanks are already rare enough. To have an entire military comprised solely of Blanks is…well dodgy. That they’re solely female? I think it has to point to some kind of cloning tech, which by design, loss of knowledge or even just deeply held tradition, is only producing female examples. It could be the Somnus Citadel has something approximating a Primarch, or an STC type thing used to create replacements. But given their rather unique position within The Imperium, there’s nothing and no-one to challenge “hey, how come they’re like, all chicks”.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Books wise at least, the Imperium hasn’t really been seen to demonstrate inward, real world awfulness. Male or female, the Guard will take you. The Ad Mech has persons who’ve moved beyond human gender identity as a way of moving closer to the perfection of the machine. Not exactly trans or non-binary, more asexuality taken about as far as it can go. Hopefully I’m wording this well, and apologise in advance for any ham fisted wording.
Agender would be the word for it.
They're probably ALSO asexual, but they're not synonyms.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
The lunar Selenar cult of ‘gene witches’ that became (somewhat grudging) allies of the Emperor and helped with some of His other genetic projects had a matriarchal society.
If the Sisters of Silence are/were cloned and the Selenar originally did the cloning (which is very possible given they’re both headquartered on the moon) then it’d’ve been very likely for them to make all-female troops.
In the Great Crusade era they were probably churned out based on the original template, then later them being all-female is just how it is and clearly ’the Emperor’s holy design’ so it would’ve just been perpetuated regardless of the original reason and despite the pre-Guilliman 40k SofS being in dispersed convents and just recruiting normally.
Would the addition of women to custodes & space marines have been better handled and accepted if the fluff was just added onto the current cannon?
Instead of retroing it, making up some plausible reason for it. I mean after all primarchs have returned and other narratives that continue the fluff instead of rewriting it.
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: Would the addition of women to custodes & space marines have been better handled and accepted if the fluff was just added onto the current cannon?
Instead of retroing it, making up some plausible reason for it. I mean after all primarchs have returned and other narratives that continue the fluff instead of rewriting it.
Thoughts?
Probably not. They did that with Primaris and there was outcry. They did that with the Primarchs and there are also still many people complaining about it.
Frankly they did it in the least intrusive way possible - just released a story using different pronouns.
Unlike Space Marines, the sex of Custodes is pretty incidental to their character.
For an example of consistency in 40k, I present: the size of an Imperial Guard regiment. These sources cover a spread of 19 years from 1995 to 2014, and are vaguely in publication order to highlight the back and forth nature of the lore.
Codex: Imperial Guard (2nd edition), pg.6:
"Regiments can consist of a few hundred men or hundreds of thousands..."
40k main rulebook (3rd edition), pg.104:
"Imperial Guard regiments, each numbering tens of thousands of soldiers and tanks..."
Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, 2nd codex), pg.4:
"Most sources concur that the basis for regimental formations is what would fit into the interstellar ships available to the crusades- typically producing three thousand man regiments which can be carried by a single transport vessel or one of the many available classes of cruiser."
Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, 2nd codex), pg.10:
"Shown here are twelve companies (almost 4000 men) of the 8th Cadian Shock Troop regiment... Roughly half of the regiment is present."
40k Apocalypse main rulebook (1st edition), pg.102:
"The Tactica Imperium sets down a basic template around which regiments are to be organised. Each is organised into companies, some with as few as three, others with as many as twenty. Companies are further divided into between three and six platoons, and platoons consist of between two and six ten-man squads lead by a command squad." That works out as a range of 225 to 7800 (this doesn't include the unmentioned company and regimental command elements including heavy weapons squads, which would add a few hundred extra at max size).
Imperial Armour Volume 5: The Siege of Vraks part 1, pg.18:
"...200,000 guardsmen of the Krieg 143rd siege regiment..."
Eisenhorn: Xenos, pg.81:
"...seven hundred and fifty thousand men are being inducted into the Imperial Guard to form the 50th Gudrunite Rifles."
Epic: Armageddon main rulebook, pg.86:
"Each regiment numbers between 2,000 and 6,000 men..."
40k main rulebook (5th edition), pg.138:
"...the number of men in a new regiment can range from a few hundred to several tens of thousands."
Codex: Imperial Guard (5th edition), pg.9:
"Regiments are typically raised with a strength of several thousand but the precise numbers can very enormously. The Valhallan 18th Light Infantry 'Tundra Wolves' consists of over one hundred and twenty thousand men whilst the Vostroyan Heavy Armoured 24th 'Iron Bloods' comprised less than one and a half thousand tank crewmen."
Codex: Astra Militarum (6th edition), pg.18 (ebook page):
"Though each regiment can consist of between three and twenty companies, and may number from a couple of hundred men to tens of thousands..."
So, for those paying attention, that is:
Hundreds to hundreds of thousands
Hundreds to tens of thousands
Ten thousand plus
Typically ~3000, but has an example of ~8000
225-7800 (more or less)
2000-6000
Several of these are mutually exclusive statements. Much consistency.
Also note how they typically say men, despite female troopers being canon throughout this period.
Edit: to flesh this out a little more- this is one example of a basic lore tidbit that would have been trivially easy to keep consistent. Custodes now being mixed gender is definitely on par with this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/21 20:19:32
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
For Custards? No. Because other than “it’s tailored to the individual candidate”, we don’t really know anything about what the process involves.
As such “they’ve now always been recruited and converted from male and female candidates” is plenty. Not a retcon so much as a clarification.
I do get why others would prefer it explained in greater depth, but with this approach it’s just not needed. If it was a development and now they can also recruit from female candidates? Yes I’d want to know more about who and how and that. Not the why. Mostly the who and how.
Astartes? That would have to be a development of the background, because for decades now the background has been consistent the conversion process is keyed to male chromosomes and that.
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Yeah, Games Workshop has never been good with numbers.
Didn't they release specs for tanks that have very thin armour, even by WW2 standards? And of course there's the laughably small size of marine chapters.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
I do want to make the argument that the Imperium is a racist institution, however not to the extend that exists in the real world.
Abhumans; Ogryns, Squats, Ratlings, Beastmen...
All of these individuals share our ancestry, and became something else through natural, artificial, or even warp-based circumstances.
Abhumans are treated as a novelty or second-class citizen at best, and are eradicated at worst, with military conscription, slavery, and other restrictive positions being the norm most of the time. Some forms of abhuman, like the Felinids and beastmen aren't even allowed to leave their planet.
Abhumans also aren't represented in any leadership roles. You don't see an Ogryn being the Planetary governor of their home planet, or a Ratling being the general of an army, or a squat inquisitor. Abhuman-only worlds are ruled by humans, and abhuman regiments are lead by human generals. The only model we ever saw of a abhuman in a high-ranking position was Tech-priest Grombrindal (whose canonicity in 40k is peculiar at best). Nork Deddog on the other hand I don't even recall having a rank; he's more a very famous bodyguard than anything else.
I do understand that there is a big difference between abhumans, and the way we differentiate between race and ethnicity, but as with a lot of things, racism is a spectrum of tolerancy, and it is heavily based upon how different we percieve each other. This is something we actually see in 40k as well. The status of Beastmen as abhumans is constantly debated by Imperial institutions, and we have plenty of stories that involve Battle Sisters treating Space Marines as abhumans. The same thing has happened in our own history and is still happening to this day. I'm not going into specifics, since I don't want to misrepresent something I only have moderate knowledge of.
Last note. It is not a coincidence that this discussion can happen in a fantasy setting like this, since speculative fiction has been the playing ground for stories based around racism and discrimination for decades now. Species like gnomes, dwarves and elves are perfect allegories for different cultures, countries, ideologies and even race. The same with aliens in science fiction, with Star Trek being a very good example of that. This is also the reason why some storytelling in other settings has shifted its depiction of monsters, species, or aliens into something more as the creature of the week.
I do apologise if this is derailing the thread, but I saw posters bring up this point and wanted to give my two cents on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/21 19:38:59
I think it is hilarious how GW utter one line, and the Fandon seems to lose ther minds.
We have one side arguing conspiracy theories that it is because of Amazon, or Black Rock.
Then we have the other side who seem to tar everyone who questions this with the same brush as being a bigot.
I have no dog in this, but I do find the whole debate/nerdrage quite bizarre.
GW said that there have always been female Custodians (no problem with female Custodians), however they haven't done anything to even show this. Things should be shown, not told. Until we see female Custodian models, it seems like someone got a bit carried away at Warhammer Community, and the end result is the fandom turns a bit toxic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/21 19:50:47
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
Abhumans are definitely second class citizens at best, though certain Regiments (notably Catachans) become very fond of Ogryn Auxiliaries assigned to them.
But again, quite perversely? The Imperium has better reason to be distrustful of the Mutant and Abhuman, because of the disastrous consequences should genuine physical and spiritual corruption go unchecked.
In the real world, marginalised groups are often, quite without basis, blamed for evils, and presented as threat to Our Way Of Life. But for The Imperium? A Rogue Psyker can become a literal gateway to and from hell, damning their entire planet as a result.
Of course, for the outside observer the question is less the necessity of keeping on top of such things, and more the necessity of the brutality which The Imperium uses in its day to day treatment of its citizens, and whether there’s a better way.
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Segersgia wrote: I do want to make the argument that the Imperium is a racist institution, however not to the extend that exists in the real world.
Abhumans; Ogryns, Squats, Ratlings, Beastmen...
All of these individuals share our ancestry, and became something else through natural, artificial, or even warp-based circumstances.
Abhumans are treated as a novelty or second-class citizen at best, and are eradicated at worst, with military conscription, slavery, and other restrictive positions being the norm most of the time. Some forms of abhuman, like the Felinids and beastmen aren't even allowed to leave their planet.
Abhumans also aren't represented in any leadership roles. You don't see an Ogryn being the Planetary governor of their home planet, or a Ratling being the general of an army, or a squat inquisitor. Abhuman-only worlds are ruled by humans, and abhuman regiments are lead by human generals. The only model we ever saw of a abhuman in a high-ranking position was Tech-priest Grombrindal (whose canonicity in 40k is peculiar at best). Nork Deddog on the other hand I don't even recall having a rank; he's more a very famous bodyguard than anything else.
I do understand that there is a big difference between abhumans, and the way we differentiate between race and ethnicity, but as with a lot of things, racism is a spectrum of tolerancy, and it is heavily based upon how different we percieve each other. This is something we actually see in 40k as well. The status of Beastmen as abhumans is constantly debated by Imperial institutions, and we have plenty of stories that involve Battle Sisters treating Space Marines as abhumans. The same thing has happened in our own history and is still happening to this day. I'm not going into specifics, since I don't want to misrepresent something I only have moderate knowledge of.
Last note. It is not a coincidence that this discussion can happen in a fantasy setting like this, since speculative fiction has been the playing ground for stories based around racism and discrimination for decades now. Species like gnomes, dwarves and elves are perfect allegories for different cultures, countries, ideologies and even race. The same with aliens in science fiction, with Star Trek being a very good example of that. This is also the reason why some storytelling in other settings has shifted its depiction of monsters, species, or aliens into something more as the creature of the week.
I do apologise if this is derailing the thread, but I saw posters bring up this point and wanted to give my two cents on it.
I agree with this! I think it's definitely worth emphasising that it's a very different sort of racism/bigotry that the Imperium has, and that abhumans such as Ogryns/Ratlings/etc are used as a signifier of race, without actually having to refer to any *actual* race.
Again, this is how GW can show the Imperium as being awful and backwards - without having to resort to perpetuating any real world bigotry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stonehorse wrote: GW said that there have always been female Custodians (no problem with female Custodians), however they haven't done anything to even show this. Things should be shown, not told. Until we see female Custodian models, it seems like someone got a bit carried away at Warhammer Community, and the end result is the fandom turns a bit toxic.
I mean, we might not have any models yet, but they *are* shown to exist in prose in the Codex. I'd personally say that's a "shown, not told", myself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/21 19:54:21
Also, given the extreme differences between a baseline human and a post-conversion Custodes, it’s entirely possible any kind of sexual dimorphism is lost in the process, either due to the enhanced growth and hormones involved, or because boobs are removed, as they’re of no value or purpose to a finished Custodes.
And depending how young the candidate is when the process begins? Mammaries may simply not develop at all.
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The Imperium didn't have atmospheric aircraft until the Thunderhawk in Epic.
Space Marines were convicts and unaugmented.
Abaddon failed.
Votaan.
Tau.
Necrons.
Admech not needing transports.
The Argus Flyer, P105 Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader October 1987.
Marines were convicts, but their bodies were toughened with bio-chem. i.e, they were always augmented, just not super soldier augmented. (again, RT)
Abaddon is and always has been a failure.
Votaan are squats, squats are in the RT book
Tau are a minor xenos race, xenos races have existed since RT Necrons are a Xenos race, Xenos races have existed since RT Admech don't NEED transports, they have legs, or tracks, or whatever.
I didn't respond to others, since i'm not intimate with those tidbits of lore. but your argument seems to be, essentially, that since GW has added things, or clarified things since the very rough outline that RT was in 1987, then any retcon is acceptable, and any retcon should be welcomed. What I would consider instead is whether the change is consistent with the established facts about the Imperium of man, or the universe in general, and if so, how has it been justified.
The Tau being introduced changed nothing about the imperium of man, or the universe, nothing. If the change was. 'The Tau empire is second only in power to the Imperium of man and possess millions of worlds, and they have observed a tense ceasefire for the past 10,000 years' that would be a MAJOR retcon, and challenge all the lore that had come before it. as it stands, Minor xenos race, scheduled for extermination? records lost? perfectly in keeping with what has been established.
With regards to Femstodes, are they something the imperium of man would do? you know, a Reactionary Xenophobic, genocidal, authoritarian dogmatic autocratic theocratic dictatorship?? you think they would be progressive? you think the person proposing a progressive outlook wouldn't find themselves immediately being executed for heresy?? Lack of representation in the imperium is a feature, not a bug, because the imperium of man is just absolutely awful. I mean Left wing diversity politics is bad, but the Imperium makes the end result of left wing ideology, cannibal island, look like a pleasant day in the park.
The Imperium's bigotry is not modern-day bigotry.
They don't care what color your skin is.
They don't care what you're rocking in your pants.
They don't care if you're trans-there's a trans Sister of Battle in a recent story.
The Imperium is a dystopic hellhole, that's for sure, but they're not terrible in a lot of the ways that modern-day people can be awful.
Some of the High Lords of Terra are women. High-ranking Inquisitors include women, like Greyfax. Custodes including women isn't going against any central themes of the Imperium.
oho? hadn't heard about that before. which story is it?
I think if they wanted more women in the Talons of the Emperor they should have focused more on the Sisters of the Silence fluff, really. I don't think there's much about them, is there?
There is a good chunk in the Talons of the Emperor novel with Aleya's chapters filling a good third of it. But more on that front would've been nice in any case. That being said, I also don't see how female Custodes preclude that from happening in the future.
Well, did the Sisters of Silence get anything new and noteworthy in the new codex? Because if not, then evidently it does preclude them from getting new stuff, because they already made that decision.
Well, not "evidently" at all - it's only "evidently" if you can prove that GW choosing to write about a woman Custodian directly prevented them from adding material for the Sisters of Silence specifically.
Otherwise, you might as well claim that GW choosing to write about women Custodes also evidently precludes them from writing Eldar Exodite lore.
i've said this before elsewhere in this thread or the other one, but considering how minor the way of revealing this news was, we really couldn't have expected something for sisters to fill that same gap. it's a two-page short story that complies with existing custodes lore, except for some pronouns. they didn't shake any major foundations or change anything meaningful about how custodes operate
let's say they had used those two pages for a SoS short story. would that really develop the faction? how much can such a story really add. SoS are already lacking in lore, and so to figure out more depth for them would require planning in a way that a story using pre-existing lore doesn't. and this is before we get to the difference in scale between writing a short story for a codex and creating new kits for SoS, especially when custodes only one one throwaway character model this edition (and not even a new character, a new shield captain with a different spear). saying "but what about SoS" requires ignoring the amount of effort needed for writing, lore development, and model production
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PenitentJake wrote: As I understand it, no models for SoS, but having a Detachment specifically designed for them is significant, and likely includes some abilities that weren't present before.
What I want most for SoS is a thing that it would be very easy for GW to give us at any time: a 40k index card for the Acquisitor. I'd be fine if it was Legends.
Also: In 8th, the White Dwarf SoS Index, specific mention was made of SoS working with the Inquisition during the Indomitus era- which was reinforced by their inclusion in Ashes of Faith. If rumours are true and an Agents dex is coming, there is an outside chance that an additional SoS unit may appear in it instead of the dex. It may also only be usable as an Agent unit if it does appear.
Ain't sayin' it's likely, just that it's possible.
i don't think it's possible, but i really hope that would happen. maybe GW can do some sort of mix and match style for agents similar to the ashes of faith rules that give SoS a new use, if not a new unit
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/04/21 20:04:05
Did we not have the discussion where we contrast that against Sanguinius identifying Custodes as men and women?
(Arguments that these are Sisters of Silence are refuted by the fact that elsewhere in the book, Sanguinius can identify nearby SoS because of his psionic affinity).
I confess I may have missed that argument or citation. But it is interesting. Is that a Black Library thing?
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Yes, it is from Echoes of Eternity in 2022.
Apparently the BL authors tried to add in female custodes six years ago, but there was a mandate from corporate against it
2022 is still more recent than their indroduction as an army in codex form
It's a shame the suits got their way for that first codex/army introduction though. Too bad.
~4100
~1660
thanks for the clarification.
