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^I think the quality of debate is going to be much more about the person you are debating with, rather than whether or not one of "those people" (as you say) use the setting as a smokescreen.

And I disagree about the questions having easy answers, parricularly the authoritarian one. An analagous question to the 40k "purge the daemon with extreme prejudice" scenario is "How dangerous does a virus need to be for you to support forced vaccinations?" Which is not a simple discussion.

There's one point that seems to be brought up a lot in this that's seeming to go unaddressed, so I figured I'd chime back in for a moment.

I'm hearing a lot of it's bad to portray (primarily) Space Marines, but others too as "good guys" in the setting, and I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. It's bad to portray The Imperium as good, but just as in any real work fascist state, there can and will be good people forced to live their lives within that system that are nothing but cogs in the machine either through fear or ignorance.

One of my favourite stories in 40k is that of the Celestial Lions, the Space Marine chapter that spoke out against the Inquisition. On Khattar the Lion's wiped out a massive chaos cult that had taken control of the planet while sparing the majority of the civilian population, after they had withdrawn and claimed the planet re-conquered, the Inquisition decided to blow it up anyway, just to be sure. The Lions were stunned and immediately tried to bring the Inquisition to task for their actions, only to realize that for all their transhuman might, they were nothing in the face of Imperial bureaucracy. After their words fell on deaf ears, they suddenly started having "accidents" ships disappeared never to be heard from again, key chapter figures were assasinated, and they were constantly undersupplied and assigned to the most dangerous missions possible.

The Lions were and are still an arm of the Fascist Imperium, but one that did try and stand up and make things better, only to be crushed almost completely but the boot of their masters.

The reason why I think it's fine, in fact good, to have SOME stories when PEOPLE in the Imperium are at least good guy adjacent is because it amplifies just how far gone the Imperium is, that they can only ever do good on a small scale because the massive force of the Imperium itself has such a choke hold on everything in it's domain that even a force as strong as a Space Marine Chapter, as a Primarch, is so much smaller than the force of uncountable brainwashed trillions led by a ruling class that has a constant deathgrip on all the power.

The trouble with some stories in this is about perspective. Much of the stories are told from the POV of Imperial Citizens, and many of them are indoctrinated to specifically not understand what is so wrong and broken about their society. Not everyone seems to be able to write that angle well, to get the horror across to the reader, while keeping the characters ignorant of it.

 Tawnis wrote:
There's one point that seems to be brought up a lot in this that's seeming to go unaddressed, so I figured I'd chime back in for a moment.

I'm hearing a lot of it's bad to portray (primarily) Space Marines, but others too as "good guys" in the setting, and I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. It's bad to portray The Imperium as good, but just as in any real work fascist state, there can and will be good people forced to live their lives within that system that are nothing but cogs in the machine either through fear or ignorance.

One of my favourite stories in 40k is that of the Celestial Lions, the Space Marine chapter that spoke out against the Inquisition. On Khattar the Lion's wiped out a massive chaos cult that had taken control of the planet while sparing the majority of the civilian population, after they had withdrawn and claimed the planet re-conquered, the Inquisition decided to blow it up anyway, just to be sure. The Lions were stunned and immediately tried to bring the Inquisition to task for their actions, only to realize that for all their transhuman might, they were nothing in the face of Imperial bureaucracy. After their words fell on deaf ears, they suddenly started having "accidents" ships disappeared never to be heard from again, key chapter figures were assasinated, and they were constantly undersupplied and assigned to the most dangerous missions possible.

The Lions were and are still an arm of the Fascist Imperium, but one that did try and stand up and make things better, only to be crushed almost completely but the boot of their masters.

The reason why I think it's fine, in fact good, to have SOME stories when PEOPLE in the Imperium are at least good guy adjacent is because it amplifies just how far gone the Imperium is, that they can only ever do good on a small scale because the massive force of the Imperium itself has such a choke hold on everything in it's domain that even a force as strong as a Space Marine Chapter, as a Primarch, is so much smaller than the force of uncountable brainwashed trillions led by a ruling class that has a constant deathgrip on all the power.

The trouble with some stories in this is about perspective. Much of the stories are told from the POV of Imperial Citizens, and many of them are indoctrinated to specifically not understand what is so wrong and broken about their society. Not everyone seems to be able to write that angle well, to get the horror across to the reader, while keeping the characters ignorant of it.

along this same wavelength, i think it would be interesting if the main story of 40k, with Guilliman and so on, wasn't about "a good person saving a decrepit empire", but showing how frail the concept of "a good person" is. there's a lot of mileage to be had about the relative morality and how "good", for the majority of people in the imperium, especially those with power, doesn't mean making things better for most people, but making the system run better or have a better perception without fixing the underlying issues. but i think everyone in this thread, no matter where you stand on the matter, can agree that GW's writing just isn't there to handle such complex topics

Lots of pages of commentary since my last post, so in case anyone missed it, my argument against the equivalence of video games=violence to 40k=normalising intolerant ideologies is that they aren't equivalent.

There is a common issue in social discourse of false equivalence fallacies and I see that it really frustrates people. I see it in discussions on misandry, 'reverse racism' etc. The problem being that people focus on the logic and not the premise the logic is applied to. Something following the same logic doesn't make it right if the premise used is incorrect. It's that initial assumption that is the issue, not the logic that follows.

This applies to the aforementioned false equivalence of the argument that the moral panic of violent video games is exactly the same as the argument of intolerance normalisation.

If the pathway from exposure to violence and committing violence was the same as exposure to normalisation of intolerant ideologies increases the acceptance of those ideologies were the same, then yes, they are equivalent.

The context around those however, proves that they are not. Just as the social inequality between the sexes means that misogyny functions entirely differently to misandry in society and is therefore not equivalent in the real-world (something being an equivalent term in language has no bearing on how it applies to real-world actions).

We have huge structures built into society to break down and rebuild people to willingly hurt others. If the pathway from exposure to violence leads to violence was so simple, the military would not need to do this to make effective soldiers.

Ideologies are more pernicious because they're passive, they can sit internally for years, being reinforced with no outward commitment to do anything. This is why people are asking men to call other men on their misogyny - it disrupts that internal ideology and can affect change. Not immediately and not totally, but that's the problem with ideologies.



As to the satire of the setting, if GW wanted to get back to their satirical roots, they would need to start pulling modern political and social concepts into 40k to work. The further from the zeitgeist it was gestated in satire gets, the less context is available for the viewer to get it. For satire to be meaningful it needs to resonate with the audience. Context is key. GW froze the satire as a product to sell, losing the commentary for the image.

If they want to be get the satire back, they need to provide that commentary. Thatcher satire is useless to a 20-something in 2024. The kind of satire 40k started with requires modern commentary.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It wouldn't make them the same.

Sisters have a distinct identity-they're the ultra religious battle nuns of the Imperium.
Marines are much more malleable in their identity-you have the religious zealots (Black Templars), you have the Vikings (Space Wolves), you have the Knights (Dark Angels), you have the vampires/angels (Blood Angels), you have the practical minded soldiers (Ultramarines)... Basically anything you can imagine, in terms of armies, can be found among the ranks of Marines.

Except women, because they apparently have cooties.

This is, fundamentally, where the failure to understand things exists.

Sisters aren't "ultra-religious battle nuns of the Imperium".
Sisters are the ultra-militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, acting as the standing army of the predominant religion of the Imperium. The entire organization exists as a loophole preventing men at arms.

Those Vikings you want? Knights? "Vampires"? Practical minded soldiery? All of those things can be found in the ranks of the Sororitas as well.

I want to dig further into this tangent- there are a few things at work here. First, I think it's helpful to separate aesthetic expression of faction diversity with expressions in mechanics and literature- they're three separate conversations- though they can (and should be) related. Sisters had strides forward mechanically in 8th/ 9th, movements in literature are not as edition locked, though we've seen strides there too. The final piece, aesthetics, hasn't seen any expressions of faction diversity.

So let's talk about what the subfaction identities are first:

Convent Sanctorum, Ophelia VII
Order of Our Martyred Lady- Cult of martyrdom
Valorous Heart- Stoicism/endurance
Bloody Rose- Close Combat

Convent Prioris, Terra
Ebon Chalice- Ritualists
Argent Shroud- Speed
Sacred Rose- Serenity and meditation

It's important also to note the history: it isn't like Marines (all soldiers descended from one of 20 distinct primarchs) or even Guard (Regiments raised locally reflecting the culture of the worlds from which they are recruited.

In the beginning, ALL sisters were Daughters of the Emperor with common training, and only one recruitment world. When Vandire remade them as Brides, it stands to reason he would want the Order to grow in number in order to better serve as a weapon, but there aren't a lot of sources that say so. The Age of Apostasy did not end when Dominica took Vandire's head; that merely drew the Reign of Blood to a close- the Plague of Unbelief, spearheaded by Carinal Buchariss was about to begin... And it happened while the Imperium was distracted with the Thorian Reformation and reconstruction.

What we do know is that during the reformation, the Daughters were split into two convents Prioris on Terra and Sanctorum on Ophelia VII. This is the first opportunity for divergence within the faction with Sisters in each location free to develop their own ways. We also know that by this point, their were enough available Daughters to split into two large forces, and that this is the era when Daughters of the Emperor (Post Vandire) became the Adepta Sororitas. They also simultaneously became the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy and the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus in this era.

But we're still only dealing with two groups of women.

Within the lifetime of some of the Matron Saints, each convent was large enough to split again- Sanctorum went Fiery Heart and Valorous Heart while Terra went Ebon Chalice and Argent Shroud. Saint Katherine's Martyrdom would forever alter the character of the Fiery Heart, transforming them into the Order of Our Martyred Lady and inaugurating the cult of martyrdom for which the order is known. This split was another opportunity for diversifaction within the faction... But remember, at this point in history, ALL Sororitas were given at least part of their training at one of these two massive convents.

But the sisterhood is growing; Preceptories are being established galaxy wide, each with its own network of Commanderies and countless Missions. This is where you start to see Orders Minoris... but likely only a few, because in M38, the final two Orders- Sacred Rose at Terra and Bloody Rose at Ophelia VII were inaugurated. Additional Preceptories would be established as these new Orders continued to grow into something resembling the patterns that we see prior to the Rift, and the majority of divergence would occur in this era... Though again, most Sisters are still doing some training in one of the two massive convents.

And that's the context.

Now, those identity hooks- we got rules that fleshed that out on the table in 9th. Of the 6 subfactions we had, four will be carried forward as detachments and two will have their identities merged with the lucky four. But in a system where mechanics are determined by detachment, there is no potential for further development of subfaction identity; if you weren't lucky enough to have it already, it certainly isn't coming because it just isn't relevant to the game anymore. It's a shame they waited until subfactions didn't matter to finally give us a named character from the Sacred Rose. It won't make a lick of difference what Order she belongs to in 10th since any sister in any Order can do the same things as any other sister in any other Order.

But how would you bring those Order Traits alive with Aesthetics if they did still exist and have in-game meaning?

Well, you could model your Valorous Heart with visible wounds and scars. Pose Sacred Heart as if in prayer, and use the calm, serene faces. Pose your OoOML in sacrificial poses, model the dead and bring plenty of Icons of Martyrs. Model Argent Shroud in running poses, and love your transports. Unit composition can augment these differences as well, but that isn't necessarily an aesthetic.

Another interesting idea I'll be exploring if I ever get around to painting and modelling it is using individual Triumph models to represent Canonesses. I know that the actual sisters in the Triumph are technically Pronatus, but the artifacts they carry were carried by the Matron Saints of their Orders so they could theoretically represent Canonesses of their Orders- which is why I'll be magnetizing my Triumph. This choice is interesting to aesthetics because each model IS representive of the Order, but they aren't all combat posed which helps create an identity beyond fighting style.

As for Black Library, I haven't read much and I've been disappointed in some of what I've read. The Triumph of Saint Katherine book by Dani Ware had enormous potential to really push the envelope for subfaction development, because each pronatus in the circle had to tell and become the story of their Matron Saint... But this was not well executed. Even in the game, the Triumph of Saint Katherine as a concept could have been handled differently. All six Matrons appear in the diorama, so it's only the corpse and the icon on the coffin that make this model the Triumph of Saint Katherine, rather than the Triumph of Saint Dominica, or Saint Mina. So why not market the kit that way?

And for the record? I would LOVE well written Age of Apostasy fiction. I'd want strong women who are fans of the lore and the game and who actively play and collect to write it- I don't think there's anyway that a man can write Vandire's hoodwinking of the Daughters with any kind of credibility, and it's a key anavoidable moment of the saga. I'd like to see the Triumph of Saint Katherine novel rewritten as a six book series where each book chronicles the development of the pronatus as they learn and live their corresponding Saint, but ALSO flashes back to the life of that Saint.

So yes, there is subfaction diversity in the sisters, but it was best exemplified in the rules for 9th edition; it has been attempted but poorly executed in the fiction and it has never really been given an associated aesthetic in the models, although there are ways that people can bit swap to lean into their order's schtick if they really want to, and unit choice can go some of the distance as well.

There are systemic reasons for a lack of diversity, however. Sisters are a young faction- they didn't exist until M36, so marines, guard, admech and Custodes all have millennia of history behind them that sisters lack. Sisters also use a centralized method of indoctrination and training which somewhat homogenizes regional and cultural differences.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:
There's one point that seems to be brought up a lot in this that's seeming to go unaddressed, so I figured I'd chime back in for a moment.

I'm hearing a lot of it's bad to portray (primarily) Space Marines, but others too as "good guys" in the setting, and I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. It's bad to portray The Imperium as good, but just as in any real work fascist state, there can and will be good people forced to live their lives within that system that are nothing but cogs in the machine either through fear or ignorance.

One of my favourite stories in 40k is that of the Celestial Lions, the Space Marine chapter that spoke out against the Inquisition. On Khattar the Lion's wiped out a massive chaos cult that had taken control of the planet while sparing the majority of the civilian population, after they had withdrawn and claimed the planet re-conquered, the Inquisition decided to blow it up anyway, just to be sure. The Lions were stunned and immediately tried to bring the Inquisition to task for their actions, only to realize that for all their transhuman might, they were nothing in the face of Imperial bureaucracy. After their words fell on deaf ears, they suddenly started having "accidents" ships disappeared never to be heard from again, key chapter figures were assasinated, and they were constantly undersupplied and assigned to the most dangerous missions possible.

The Lions were and are still an arm of the Fascist Imperium, but one that did try and stand up and make things better, only to be crushed almost completely but the boot of their masters.

The reason why I think it's fine, in fact good, to have SOME stories when PEOPLE in the Imperium are at least good guy adjacent is because it amplifies just how far gone the Imperium is, that they can only ever do good on a small scale because the massive force of the Imperium itself has such a choke hold on everything in it's domain that even a force as strong as a Space Marine Chapter, as a Primarch, is so much smaller than the force of uncountable brainwashed trillions led by a ruling class that has a constant deathgrip on all the power.

The trouble with some stories in this is about perspective. Much of the stories are told from the POV of Imperial Citizens, and many of them are indoctrinated to specifically not understand what is so wrong and broken about their society. Not everyone seems to be able to write that angle well, to get the horror across to the reader, while keeping the characters ignorant of it.

along this same wavelength, i think it would be interesting if the main story of 40k, with Guilliman and so on, wasn't about "a good person saving a decrepit empire", but showing how frail the concept of "a good person" is. there's a lot of mileage to be had about the relative morality and how "good", for the majority of people in the imperium, especially those with power, doesn't mean making things better for most people, but making the system run better or have a better perception without fixing the underlying issues. but i think everyone in this thread, no matter where you stand on the matter, can agree that GW's writing just isn't there to handle such complex topics

I agree, but I suspect GW's writing could get there. Black Library has some decent talent, and it's not like GW couldn't hire more if the current stable just isn't up to the task. The problem, I'd expect, is in management's vision for the franchise. I suspect most of us fans would be happy for more challenging content (probably more in BL/WH+, as I'm not sure the codices and BRB would have enough space to really do that sort of thing well), but that might not mesh well with the "wow cool space gun go bang" crowd, and if that's who the C-levels want to get into the game...

(PS - For the record, I don't mean to say that the "wow cool etc." crowd aren't "true fans" or that they should be shunned or gatekept out of the hobby. One certainly doesn't have to get deep into the lore to enjoy the game, and GW's sculpts can certainly be worthy of purchase even if the buyer never gets into the game or backstory. I just don't think the execs would look at that crowd and expect to hook them in via the sort of content we're talking about in this thread, so I'd expect the execs to be less willing to spend time or money exploring said content).

@Hellebore: I'm sorry I'm out of time to respond atm. I didn't forget you though! I must say I'm having a difficult time finding the difference/distinction you are trying to make though. Trying to keep it in mind as I go about my other obligations.

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Hellebore: I'm sorry I'm out of time to respond atm. I didn't forget you though! I must say I'm having a difficult time finding the difference/distinction you are trying to make though. Trying to keep it in mind as I go about my other obligations.

Because the outcomes for video gaming is easy to measure - you should see an uptick in violence committed by gamers. Which we don't see.

The acceptance of and engagement with intolerant ideologies is a larger societal effect that is harder to measure, and it happens across years rather than the spontaneity of hypothetical violent gamers. As I said in the post I made yesterday, people often don't notice it until it's built too much momentum to be easily stopped.

However we have plenty of precedent for this happening in society and that it starts with small things like not calling people on their ideologies and the live and let live approach (the 'they came for the unionists but I wasn't one' aspect). It's popper's paradox of tolerance and it's been proven multiple times in different countries just in the last 100 years.

This is another example of a false equivalence - because I've described what could be called a slippery slope and many people would dismiss it on those grounds because other slippery slope arguments have been dismissed. But again, the context is key. We've actually got evidence in Germany, Italy, Cambodia, China, Korea, Argentina etc that this slippery slope actually happens.

Which is why it is important to examine the premise underlying the argument, rather than just looking at whether you can apply the same logic to both.

 Tawnis wrote:
One of my favourite stories in 40k is that of the Celestial Lions, the Space Marine chapter that spoke out against the Inquisition. On Khattar the Lion's wiped out a massive chaos cult that had taken control of the planet while sparing the majority of the civilian population, after they had withdrawn and claimed the planet re-conquered, the Inquisition decided to blow it up anyway, just to be sure. The Lions were stunned and immediately tried to bring the Inquisition to task for their actions, only to realize that for all their transhuman might, they were nothing in the face of Imperial bureaucracy. After their words fell on deaf ears, they suddenly started having "accidents" ships disappeared never to be heard from again, key chapter figures were assasinated, and they were constantly undersupplied and assigned to the most dangerous missions possible.

The Lions were and are still an arm of the Fascist Imperium, but one that did try and stand up and make things better, only to be crushed almost completely but the boot of their masters.

This reminds me of what happened to the Seekers of Truth Chapter: they were being used by the Inquisition to murder innocents, and their Chapter Master prayed for a way to know who was lying and who wasn't.*

I think part of the problem is that people tend to forget that while the Imperium itself is evil, I'd wager a great many of its citizens are not - even amongst the Space Marines. Your average Guardsman probably doesn't know a lick about what's going on in the wider galaxy, and may not ever have even heard the term 'High Lords of Terra' before. When someone shoves a lasgun in your hand and marches you in front of a Tyranid swarm, you don't get a lot of chances to think about the morality of the situation. Your average worker is content to toil away in their manufactorum.

The people are just so indoctrinated to trust their leaders that they don't even think to question their motives - something that, sadly, we've seen play out several times history.



*Unfortunately, Tzeentch answered it.

 Hellebore wrote:

However we have plenty of precedent for this happening in society and that it starts with small things like not calling people on their ideologies and the live and let live approach (the 'they came for the unionists but I wasn't one' aspect). It's popper's paradox of tolerance and it's been proven multiple times in different countries just in the last 100 years.

Yes. Those who spoke against the dogma were labeled heretics. Luckily, the Age of Reason allowed people to speak their minds with little consequence. Now people are called out on it.

In an honest attempt at clarity here: what is the point of satirizing something that is inherently not a laughing matter? People always ask, when has X comedian gone too far? When it's no longer funny.

Dave Chappelle stopped being funny to me when he began insinuating that it was ok to treat transgender folks as "less than" and started the "I have a trans friend!" trope every time he talks.

40k stopped being satire for me when 45 started putting his head on the Emperor's body as fan art that was official, and using slogans like "Unified Reich" or both-sides-ing literal Nazis in the street.

The reason 40k is such a basement hobby is because deep down, it's a hobby that glorifies faschistic thought, Sexism, Racism, and literally every "-phobia" in the book.

People bring up "The satanic Panic" like that's some sort of whataboutistic I WIN button. But it's not the argument you think it is. If DND was literally promoting satanic worship, or sacrificing blood rituals, then it would be the same. 40k glorifies all the tenants of the Faschistic style of governance. Thus it's not Satire any more.

If you want to put buzz words like Flanderization on it,(dumbest word of the year) then fine. But all you are saying is I want it to be cool and edgy and not feel judged when I espouse the tenants of the IoM in public.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In an honest attempt at clarity here: what is the point of satirizing something that is inherently not a laughing matter?

Perhaps you don't know the whole definition of satire?

Sat·ire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues:
"the crude satire seems to be directed at the fashionable protest singers of the time"

Humor is but one form of satire.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The reason 40k is such a basement hobby is because deep down, it's a hobby that glorifies faschistic thought, Sexism, Racism, and literally every "-phobia" in the book.

So what about every other minis game?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If you want to put buzz words like Flanderization on it,(dumbest word of the year) then fine. But all you are saying is I want it to be cool and edgy and not feel judged when I espouse the tenants of the IoM in public.

Hmm, nope. What we're saying is that we wished the satire hadn't been bleached out of the setting/lore/art (& sometimes even the minis!) over the decades.
Games definitely poorer for it.

I think that GW has moved away from the more in-your-fact aspects of 40K satire, but has not lost the plot entirely that it is a satirical setting. Still sitting at the core of 40K is that a super-dystopian government that views its citizens as little more than fodder in its great battle to save mankind from the elemental forces arrayed against it is doomed to fail because it is as much to blame for its inability to win as the forces arrayed against them. Remember the 10th Edition trailer where mankind's greatest defender ponders with no small amount of self-aware irony about victory?

This does not mean the more silly elements have not been smoothed out into a more coherent and story-friendly background. That being said, I wouldn't call it flanderized. Most elements are more nuanced than they used to be as opposed to being one-note versions of their prior selves (World Eaters being a notably flanderized exception).

srry, missed a few pages. Responding multiquote here.

 Insectum7 wrote:
An analagous question to the 40k "purge the daemon with extreme prejudice" scenario is "How dangerous does a virus need to be for you to support forced vaccinations?" Which is not a simple discussion.

I'm probably walking on eggshells in a power armor here but that discussion would be very simple; no real or imaginary danger will ever warrant state force of any kind and suggesting otherwise equates fascism.

Anyway, I think I notice a tendency in recreative franchises (wether it is videogames, movies or hobby) to try to reproduce reality (some more than others) for some reason to as the industry puts it generally; 'be relatable', I think that that is a big mistake.

If anyone wants to relate, then all you have to do is walk outside and talk to a living and breathing other, stick your fingers into the soil and plant a crop or swing from a treebranch or something, why does fiction have to look like reality? Then it won't be fiction anylonger.

So you (not literally you, just in general) have pink hair and a nosering and now you need a mini to look like that too or what? I will never get it. Just be you and let your mini's be whatever you make of them but why should an entire template be changed for that?

I personally am not fond of the "everything is resolved through a form of violence" default in practically every expression of toys, toons and games either.. I personally prefer cardgames/deckbuilding aspect etc.. and love to theorycraft though.., but things are what they are and if you want something different, look for something different rather than changing something that already exists into what you are looking for. Strangely, the opposite is being done non stop. Look at movie franchises with all the "creative changes" being made to lore.. the witcher series was a good example.. completely wrecked.

Not saying GW does this necessarily, but there are lobbys going around affecting creative content to a template, that is wrong. Creative content should be itself without all the apologetics and catering to the-next-thing hype or no.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In an honest attempt at clarity here: what is the point of satirizing something that is inherently not a laughing matter? People always ask, when has X comedian gone too far? When it's no longer funny.

Dave Chappelle stopped being funny to me when he began insinuating that it was ok to treat transgender folks as "less than" and started the "I have a trans friend!" trope every time he talks.

40k stopped being satire for me when 45 started putting his head on the Emperor's body as fan art that was official, and using slogans like "Unified Reich" or both-sides-ing literal Nazis in the street.

The reason 40k is such a basement hobby is because deep down, it's a hobby that glorifies faschistic thought, Sexism, Racism, and literally every "-phobia" in the book.

People bring up "The satanic Panic" like that's some sort of whataboutistic I WIN button. But it's not the argument you think it is. If DND was literally promoting satanic worship, or sacrificing blood rituals, then it would be the same. 40k glorifies all the tenants of the Faschistic style of governance. Thus it's not Satire any more.

If you want to put buzz words like Flanderization on it,(dumbest word of the year) then fine. But all you are saying is I want it to be cool and edgy and not feel judged when I espouse the tenants of the IoM in public.

This is the type of guilt-by-association activism that does more harm than good.. you should hopefully come to realize..
And NOWHERE in 40k is fascism glorified, it is shown exactly as destructive as it is.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

The issue is that it goes against the lore and thus makes it so the entire history of spacemarines has to be rewritten just because it has to portray the world of today for some reason..

So what if in a fictional army there are no women, what if a xenos has no women to begin with and are all androgyn? Should they suddenly also have women? Heh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Them stating "Warhammer is for Everyone" is a good statement, but without action and delegitimising further the folks who "will not be missed", it runs the risk of being empty air and signalling.

What is the definition of -everyone- exactly if it doesn't include people who feel bolstered or comfortable in the theme? (aside from identified)

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that 40k/The Imperium is *creating* Those Folks. However, it is providing a rallying point, aesthetic, and a legitimacy for the talking points and beliefs expressed by Those Folks. The solution is to remove that as a symbol or tool of legitimacy. It doesn't require "destroying all 40k" to do - but a more hardline stance in denying Those Folks a shred of power or idea that they have a place in 40k (and in wider society).

So let's say someone likes the aesthetic of arnold schwarzenegger in the terminator, sporting a leather biker jacket and black glasses, walking around bopping his shoulders, does that make them a violent machine?

This whole "someone's preference may not be anywhere near this or that theme or they embody it irl" thing is ridiculous.. it lack such imagination..
The suggestion that there is some kind of emergence of an actual 40k empire just because people like the aesthetic of the ficticious and mind you overly exaggerated and obviously dismissive 40k empire cannot be staved on anything in reality.. the warhammer community is probably the least violent of all, I think that cannot be denied.. so where does this idea even come from that there exist some influx of "evil people trying to adopt the empire".. I think its a bag of hot air and a smear campaign, sorry.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

The issue is that it goes against the lore and thus makes it so the entire history of spacemarines has to be rewritten just because it has to portray the world of today for some reason..

So what if in a fictional army there are no women, what if a xenos has no women to begin with and are all androgyn? Should they suddenly also have women? Heh.

any retcon that updates the lore to allow women to exist doesn't need to be retroactive (and in fact would have to be additive). have some trinket text about Cawl making new innovations to allow for more recruitment now that [insert 11th edition enemy faction] have brought the imperium to the eve of destruction. there. that's all we need, and then we can move on and pretend this game didn't spend 40 years scared of women cooties

 Insectum7 wrote:
An analagous question to the 40k "purge the daemon with extreme prejudice" scenario is "How dangerous does a virus need to be for you to support forced vaccinations?" Which is not a simple discussion.

Well, first we need need to acknowledge the use of the word "forced" in the context of vaccinations.

In a democratic state, an elected official acting on the advice of a qualified medical officer, may propose legislation that encourages vaccination, and votes will be cast through various chambers of checks and balances before becoming law. Each level of government- municipal, provincial/ state and federal will go through this process for legislation within their jurisdiction.

Some of the laws might include requiring vaccinations to enter or leave the country, or requiring vaccinations for certain jobs, or entry into certain protected spaces. Consequences for non-compliance may include fines, but usually just enforce limits on access- IE. law says you need a vaccine to work in an old age home, and the penalty for non-compliance is simply that you can't work in that old age home.

Now withing the context of a functioning democracy, people who don't like these laws will CALL them Fascist, and within the context of a democratically elected government, they will general be allowed to do so... But the majority of the population will see it for the hyperbole for what it is.

Because in a real Fascist state?

The deicion to vaccinate would likely be made by one dude without any votes or due process to challenge it, and no recourse to adjudication for constitutionality after the fact. This individual may have been duly elected, but is just as likely to have come to power by assassinating or otherwise eliminating all viable political rivals, engaging in voter suppression, misinformation or some combination of these elements.

The consequences for non-compliance could range from draconian imprisonment, disenfranchisement, torture or death.

The consequences for speaking out against the policy would be the same.

And it is fething ridiculous that in some of the most educated nations in the world, partisan a-holes refuse to acknowledge the difference between case A and case B.

But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:
srry, missed a few pages. Responding multiquote here.

 Insectum7 wrote:
An analagous question to the 40k "purge the daemon with extreme prejudice" scenario is "How dangerous does a virus need to be for you to support forced vaccinations?" Which is not a simple discussion.

I'm probably walking on eggshells in a power armor here but that discussion would be very simple; no real or imaginary danger will ever warrant state force of any kind and suggesting otherwise equates fascism.

Anyway, I think I notice a tendency in recreative franchises (wether it is videogames, movies or hobby) to try to reproduce reality (some more than others) for some reason to as the industry puts it generally; 'be relatable', I think that that is a big mistake.

If anyone wants to relate, then all you have to do is walk outside and talk to a living and breathing other, stick your fingers into the soil and plant a crop or swing from a treebranch or something, why does fiction have to look like reality? Then it won't be fiction anylonger.

So you (not literally you, just in general) have pink hair and a nosering and now you need a mini to look like that too or what? I will never get it. Just be you and let your mini's be whatever you make of them but why should an entire template be changed for that?

I personally am not fond of the "everything is resolved through a form of violence" default in practically every expression of toys, toons and games either.. I personally prefer cardgames/deckbuilding aspect etc.. and love to theorycraft though.., but things are what they are and if you want something different, look for something different rather than changing something that already exists into what you are looking for. Strangely, the opposite is being done non stop. Look at movie franchises with all the "creative changes" being made to lore.. the witcher series was a good example.. completely wrecked.

Not saying GW does this necessarily, but there are lobbys going around affecting creative content to a template, that is wrong. Creative content should be itself without all the apologetics and catering to the-next-thing hype or no.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In an honest attempt at clarity here: what is the point of satirizing something that is inherently not a laughing matter? People always ask, when has X comedian gone too far? When it's no longer funny.

Dave Chappelle stopped being funny to me when he began insinuating that it was ok to treat transgender folks as "less than" and started the "I have a trans friend!" trope every time he talks.

40k stopped being satire for me when 45 started putting his head on the Emperor's body as fan art that was official, and using slogans like "Unified Reich" or both-sides-ing literal Nazis in the street.

The reason 40k is such a basement hobby is because deep down, it's a hobby that glorifies faschistic thought, Sexism, Racism, and literally every "-phobia" in the book.

People bring up "The satanic Panic" like that's some sort of whataboutistic I WIN button. But it's not the argument you think it is. If DND was literally promoting satanic worship, or sacrificing blood rituals, then it would be the same. 40k glorifies all the tenants of the Faschistic style of governance. Thus it's not Satire any more.

If you want to put buzz words like Flanderization on it,(dumbest word of the year) then fine. But all you are saying is I want it to be cool and edgy and not feel judged when I espouse the tenants of the IoM in public.

This is the type of guilt-by-association activism that does more harm than good.. you should hopefully come to realize..
And NOWHERE in 40k is fascism glorified, it is shown exactly as destructive as it is.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

The issue is that it goes against the lore and thus makes it so the entire history of spacemarines has to be rewritten just because it has to portray the world of today for some reason..

So what if in a fictional army there are no women, what if a xenos has no women to begin with and are all androgyn? Should they suddenly also have women? Heh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Them stating "Warhammer is for Everyone" is a good statement, but without action and delegitimising further the folks who "will not be missed", it runs the risk of being empty air and signalling.

What is the definition of -everyone- exactly if it doesn't include people who feel bolstered or comfortable in the theme? (aside from identified)

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that 40k/The Imperium is *creating* Those Folks. However, it is providing a rallying point, aesthetic, and a legitimacy for the talking points and beliefs expressed by Those Folks. The solution is to remove that as a symbol or tool of legitimacy. It doesn't require "destroying all 40k" to do - but a more hardline stance in denying Those Folks a shred of power or idea that they have a place in 40k (and in wider society).

So let's say someone likes the aesthetic of arnold schwarzenegger in the terminator, sporting a leather biker jacket and black glasses, walking around bopping his shoulders, does that make them a violent machine?

This whole "someone's preference may not be anywhere near this or that theme or they embody it irl" thing is ridiculous.. it lack such imagination..
The suggestion that there is some kind of emergence of an actual 40k empire just because people like the aesthetic of the ficticious and mind you overly exaggerated and obviously dismissive 40k empire cannot be staved on anything in reality.. the warhammer community is probably the least violent of all, I think that cannot be denied.. so where does this idea even come from that there exist some influx of "evil people trying to adopt the empire".. I think its a bag of hot air and a smear campaign, sorry.

Nowhere glorified? The Space Marines are the literal "Good guys" in the overwhelming majority of the fluff. "Angels" and whatnot. How much more on the nose do you need it to be, Dante, The Ultras, Vulcan and his Merry band of "We don't kill Civilians troopers". Not even getting into the Astra Militarum nonsense, but the only Imperial faction routinely pointed at as "The Bad guys" are the Admech, because they are the "Greedy Corporate" trope faction. Always sacrificing everything to gain money, power, etc. There are very few books that actively portray the Astartes (Loyalist) or the rest of the IoM as "The Bad Guys".

Even GW marketing videos are glorifying the Sisters now, with the launch video of 9th. The Super Catholic Fem-Nazis. Those got a Trailer to look totally heroic/awesome.

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.
After all, the Imperium is great at making hells of its own making. That's like, the point of a grim-dark setting about the dark side and failings of human nature and civilization.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.

the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Leopold Helveine wrote:NOWHERE in 40k is fascism glorified, it is shown exactly as destructive as it is.

So what's your take on those people who *do* glorify the Imperium?

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

The issue is that it goes against the lore

The lore changes all the time. What is "against" the lore one day might change in five years.

Without falling back on the immutability of the lore, what are the issues with it?

thus makes it so the entire history of spacemarines has to be rewritten just because it has to portray the world of today for some reason.

Have the Custodes had their entire history rewritten?
Did Space Marines have their entire history rewritten when Stormraven Gunships were introduced?

So what if in a fictional army there are no women, what if a xenos has no women to begin with and are all androgyn? Should they suddenly also have women? Heh.

Obviously not, and you know why not. You're being disingenuous.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Them stating "Warhammer is for Everyone" is a good statement, but without action and delegitimising further the folks who "will not be missed", it runs the risk of being empty air and signalling.

What is the definition of -everyone- exactly if it doesn't include people who feel bolstered or comfortable in the theme? (aside from identified)

Check Popper's Paradox of Tolerance.

"Everyone" presupposes that ANYONE/everyone is welcome in 40k, but if you are incapable of engaging with others and welcoming them, then clearly you have not bought into the social contract of "everyone".

Everyone isn't to say that "EVERYONE is a 40k fan", but that everyone/anyone *could* be if they so wished. That also doesn't imply that 40k is perfect and has no flaws.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that 40k/The Imperium is *creating* Those Folks. However, it is providing a rallying point, aesthetic, and a legitimacy for the talking points and beliefs expressed by Those Folks. The solution is to remove that as a symbol or tool of legitimacy. It doesn't require "destroying all 40k" to do - but a more hardline stance in denying Those Folks a shred of power or idea that they have a place in 40k (and in wider society).

So let's say someone likes the aesthetic of arnold schwarzenegger in the terminator, sporting a leather biker jacket and black glasses, walking around bopping his shoulders, does that make them a violent machine?

Absolutely not.
When someone happens to like the aesthetic of, say, a Commissar with iron crosses and a peaked cap (you know, like certain Real Life Ideologies), and starts going round shouting about killing the "heretic" and the "traitor", except those comments are all directed towards, let's say, as you put earlier, someone with "pink hair and a nose ring", and maybe seem to blur the lines between when they're "in character" and when they're not...
... but it's okay!!!! they're just pretending to be a Commissar of the Imperium, it's just a joke!!!11!

right?

This whole "someone's preference may not be anywhere near this or that theme or they embody it irl" thing is ridiculous.. it lack such imagination..

Huh?

The suggestion that there is some kind of emergence of an actual 40k empire just because people like the aesthetic of the ficticious and mind you overly exaggerated and obviously dismissive 40k empire cannot be staved on anything in reality..

Uh... you *do* know that a lot of Imperial imagery is based off of real life totaltarian regimes?

Yes, it's fictious. That's THE POINT. That's the smokescreen - that they're just "roleplaying" or "quoting" from the Silly Toy Soldier Game. Except those doctrines of "hate the mutant" and "tolerance is heresy" are a little bit more real than they say.

And yes, this *is* based in reality. I genuinely suggest you open your eyes.

the warhammer community is probably the least violent of all, I think that cannot be denied..

"Of all"?

Mate, what are you on?

so where does this idea even come from that there exist some influx of "evil people trying to adopt the empire".. I think its a bag of hot air and a smear campaign, sorry.

Again, I don't know what to tell you, but you're just plain wrong. Just a brief look online would show this. There's plenty of grifters using 40k to promote their brand of bigotry, and if you pretend like it's not real, then I can't take you seriously.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Unfortunately true. People are so polarised (and media illiterate) that even the most obvious satire can fall flat (see: Helldivers 2).

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.

the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Still better than a story that paints the Imperium as justified in their treatment of their subjects. At least in my version both are guilty; the Imperium is guilty for their heavy-handed folly (as always), and the rebels are guilty for getting suckered by literal demons and end up causing even more damage as a consequence. No one is good here, they are both wrong.

You should try reading The Eye of Medusa, about the Iron Hands. It really makes you think "damn, these so-called defenders of humanity are indeed sociopathic, homicidal maniacs". Cold, inhuman, indifferent.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.

the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Still better than a story that paints the Imperium as justified in their treatment of their subjects. At least in my version both are guilty; the Imperium is guilty for their heavy-handed folly (as always), and the rebels are guilty for getting suckered by literal demons and end up causing even more damage as a consequence. No one is good here, they are both wrong.

The thing that minimizes the "Imperium is right" is that they are executing those who dissent, which allows the campaign to be satirical: even if the desire to have citizens vaccinated is regarded as noble by some players, the Imperial policy of executing dissenters will not be seen as noble by most sane people.

The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems- It's why I posted the Hassle Free sci-fi Trump model a few pages back. If you are upset about a lack of satire in the game, play narratively and make your own satire.

If you are unable or unwilling to do that, then I'd have to say while it's certainly still thought provoking and engaging to participate in conversations like these, and that's the reason we have forums like this in the first place, it obviously isn't as much of a problem as the discourse would suggest, because if it was, more people WOULD actually find a way to take the radical step of taking matters into our own hands.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.

the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Hmm... that could work with a bit of an extra angle and get both sides of it. The original story would be the beginning, where the vaccine does work and the plague is starting to dissipate. However, then some high up member of the Ecclesiarchy shows up claiming that the only thing people need to be saved is their belief in the Emperor, so they shut down all this "science nonsense" holding city-wide sermons and prayer sessions, only for the disease to come back twice as strong as before and overrun the planet.

 Tawnis wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Not really, as the Imperium is still in the right in this case, which I'm pretty sure is what many in this thread are griping about. It would be more of a satire if there was no disease, it was just an imperial overreaction to a common cold instigated by an overzealous and paranoid inquisitor, and the vaccine being imposed was incredibly faulty. And the oppressed citizens do end up being tricked into joining Chaos, because that's how Chaos works, it exploit's humanity's own failings.

the issue here is that it would be a hard story to tell without pandering to anti-vaccers— if the vaccine is for frivolous reasons, and has harmful effects, you're going to get people pointing at it and saying "see, that's just like the real vaccine!" and using it to justify their anti-scientific opinions. it's a very thin line to tread in order to make a story like this work without vilifying vaccines or real world vaccine mandates

Hmm... that could work with a bit of an extra angle and get both sides of it. The original story would be the beginning, where the vaccine does work and the plague is starting to dissipate. However, then some high up member of the Ecclesiarchy shows up claiming that the only thing people need to be saved is their belief in the Emperor, so they shut down all this "science nonsense" holding city-wide sermons and prayer sessions, only for the disease to come back twice as strong as before and overrun the planet.

yeah, that certainly works! folly and hubris are classic ways to present satire

could even have an inquisitor come in and ban the vaccine on the basis of it being heretech, then later claim that it had been their idea to use it in the first place when it turns out it actually worked

I think people are overlooking the main vein of satire within The Imperium.

Despite all its horrific treatment of its own citizens. Despite its xenocidal nature. Despite its oppression and suppression of knowledge?

It’s still slowly dying. It’s breaking under its own weight and ignorance. The wildest dreams of the furthest right you can go, and it’s still failing. Even when the satanic panic has good reason to exist, suppressing knowledge and burning books and heretics isn’t working.

It’s riven with factionalism enough to make a Skaven blush.

The only reason it continues to this day is its sheer size. And as I’ve argued before, the return of Guilliman, a paragon of effective governance and strategy has changed….nothing.

It could be saved by Guilliman, but would require centralisation under his express command, and a whole heap of root and stem reorganisation from top to bottom. But it arguably now cannot be done. Those at the top have enjoyed such power and freedom, they’re not gonna give that up easily.

The Emperor is worshipped in a way He allegedly never wanted. And it’s that worship which is a significant factor in the cultural rot and atrophy. And there are genuine concerns that The Emperor stepping off his Throne and taking command would just make things worse, because sadly that’s how Theocracies tend to go. And that said theocracy is largely based on a book written by a confirmed Heretic only adds to the irony of the situation.

It’s almost an Orky inability to see the potential for any thing beyond warfare.

In actual point of fact: there was a sub story in one of the DOW books, where a lowly Data Shuffler was in receipt of a data transmission from a far off world, but she was too ignorant to understand it. She made it her life's mission to bring it to the "senior administrator" or whatever, because she BELIEVES the emperor tasked her with this, and basically gives it to him almost at the point of death. Person reads it, and says it's a request for support from a World that basically died/was overrun by chaos, over 50 years ago or something, so it was all worthless and pointless, unimportant. Her entire life spent in the pursuit of an ideal and belief, shown to be on the face of it, the same. This is about as satirical as the IoM can get in the fluff. People thinking they're making a difference, only to realize their body is being used as firewood for a ship's engine.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

any retcon that updates the lore to allow women to exist doesn't need to be retroactive (and in fact would have to be additive). have some trinket text about Cawl making new innovations to allow for more recruitment now that [insert 11th edition enemy faction] have brought the imperium to the eve of destruction. there. that's all we need, and then we can move on and pretend this game didn't spend 40 years scared of women cooties

Plenty of cooties among the sisters, again.
Also, traitor slaaneshians (noisemarines) may have female spacemarines imho. go for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PenitentJake wrote:

But to take it back to Warhammer, your question actually provides for a cool campaign set in the era Indomitus. What if a cult of Nurgle is poisoning an Imperial world and seeking to summon both daemons and Death Guard to support the descent into disease. A planetary Governor has instituted mandatory vaccination, and the Arbites are rounding up and executing non compliant citizens- some of whom will be Nurgle Cultists, while others will belong to militarized religious orders.

You could create a vaccinated keyword that offers some protection vs. Nurgle's diseases, and some citizens disillusioned with the Imperial pogrom might join the Nurgle forces or succumb to corruption by another chaos power. Some within the Imperial forces may support them- ie. target priority against visibly mutated followers of Nurgle rather than the more human-looking infected but not yet mutated non-compliant citizens duped into supporting the very forces that are killing their fellow citizens by their "discontent" with Imperial governance.

They could all drive Cargo-8 transports to the hive city of Ottawaviticus to protest Imperial Governor Trudeaudonnai.

And that would bring satire back to 40k without GW needing to make a single change to lore or mechanics to facilitate it.

Add some knowledged Eldar that have libraries full of research done ignored by the Empire that the Nurgle blessings aren't contageous but in reality gifted upon the population by each their own lifestyle merit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think people are overlooking the main vein of satire within The Imperium.

Despite all its horrific treatment of its own citizens. Despite its xenocidal nature. Despite its oppression and suppression of knowledge?

It’s still slowly dying. It’s breaking under its own weight and ignorance. The wildest dreams of the furthest right you can go, and it’s still failing. Even when the satanic panic has good reason to exist, suppressing knowledge and burning books and heretics isn’t working.

It’s riven with factionalism enough to make a Skaven blush.

The only reason it continues to this day is its sheer size. And as I’ve argued before, the return of Guilliman, a paragon of effective governance and strategy has changed….nothing.

It could be saved by Guilliman, but would require centralisation under his express command, and a whole heap of root and stem reorganisation from top to bottom. But it arguably now cannot be done. Those at the top have enjoyed such power and freedom, they’re not gonna give that up easily.

The Emperor is worshipped in a way He allegedly never wanted. And it’s that worship which is a significant factor in the cultural rot and atrophy. And there are genuine concerns that The Emperor stepping off his Throne and taking command would just make things worse, because sadly that’s how Theocracies tend to go. And that said theocracy is largely based on a book written by a confirmed Heretic only adds to the irony of the situation.

It’s almost an Orky inability to see the potential for any thing beyond warfare.

Orks are actually a lot more like humans compared to the hyper-gloom of pre-necron-mentality transhumanist empire emperor-feet-kissers though..
Funny how we never hear any complaints about the Ork culture instigating alt right movements or something

It would be the height of Irony if cawl wasn't able to engineer FSM, but Fabius Bile was....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It could be saved by Guilliman

And the Emperor is confirmed alive, and Cawl has rolled out new Marines that are stomping all over the extant threats, and other primarchs might return, and basically the precipice of annihilation at 999.M41 has been averted. There is now hope, and possibility for the Imperium to recover.

Getting into the weeds about whether it's likely or not that Guilliman can do any of that is irrelevant anyways, since story developments are at the behest of a company with a revolving door of writers and little concern for consistency. All we have in concrete is the current state and the current themes, and they don't strike me as particularly satirical.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is about as satirical as the IoM can get in the fluff. People thinking they're making a difference, only to realize their body is being used as firewood for a ship's engine.

It's more the subsequent essays about why it needs to be this way and how more rational paperwork will actually allow daemons to molest you in new and exciting orifices that reduces it from satire to just 'everything sucks (but the fascist empire is doing the right thing)'.