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I mean COVID deniers, anti mask and anti-vaxxers are sadly not decades old memes, they are both still very relevant and still very deserving of being mocked.

If Tyranid deniers aren't satire then I don't know what satire is.

 Rihgu wrote:
The setting now has a blonde-haired blue-eyed super-super soldier regretfully pressing the big red button labelled "genocide" 20 times a day while thinking about how far from his father's dream this all is.

That the absurdity of it is lost on people (including, seemingly, some of the novel writers!) I don't think is a notch against its satirical nature.

ccs wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Tree_Beard wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
The setting was designed as a self aware satire of totalitarianism, thatcherism and many other isms.

According to who?

Well, the designers for one, but there are a ton of references to events and people that are entirely forgotten today and trying to bring people up to speed involves long, tedious explanations that invariably end with: "I guess you had to be there."

You could be helpful & list thise references so that those who're curious enough can do thier own research.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/

That's me being helpful for the day!

That blond-haired, blue-eyed soldier pressing the genocide button 20 times by accident, thinking it was some other button of the console, would tickle my satir-o-meter much more tho

Kulliman genociding reluctlantly.. too much Emo feels mate

I miss Mills/O'Neill

Tyel wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
The setting now has a blonde-haired blue-eyed super-super soldier regretfully pressing the big red button labelled "genocide" 20 times a day while thinking about how far from his father's dream this all is.

That the absurdity of it is lost on people (including, seemingly, some of the novel writers!) I don't think is a notch against its satirical nature.

But - at the danger of being ignorant - what is that a satire of?

"Its a send up of how fascism is bad". But that's kind of broad brush. I'm not really sure how its a satire. "Tyranid deniers" as stand in for various X-deniers in real life is kind of a satire. But there's also a sense that this isn't what this is. Instead its just what the Ecclesiarchy does in 40k - because its living via decade long-recycled memes at this point rather than a thing in itself, operating according to logical/consistent character development.

Well, yes, that specific thing is a broad brush of "fascism/fascist bad", but that's what it's supposed to be. More specific satirical elements will drill in on more specific things

That blond-haired, blue-eyed soldier pressing the genocide button 20 times by accident, thinking it was some other button of the console, would tickle my satir-o-meter much more tho

True, I never said it was necessarily top tier satire, tho

I haven't bought a 10th edition codex yet, but if I remember right Chaos Space Marines comes out either tomorrow or next weekend. I'll have to browse that to see if there's much going on there beyond the broad strokes stuff. Maybe 10th edition has toned down specifics but the broad setting sure is still satirical, in my opinion, if only for the absurdity of the "justifications" of the fascism and the general rotten bureaucracy that is still portrayed.

Tyel wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
The setting now has a blonde-haired blue-eyed super-super soldier regretfully pressing the big red button labelled "genocide" 20 times a day while thinking about how far from his father's dream this all is.

That the absurdity of it is lost on people (including, seemingly, some of the novel writers!) I don't think is a notch against its satirical nature.

But - at the danger of being ignorant - what is that a satire of?

"Its a send up of how fascism is bad". But that's kind of broad brush. I'm not really sure how its a satire. "Tyranid deniers" as stand in for various X-deniers in real life is kind of a satire. But there's also a sense that this isn't what this is. Instead its just what the Ecclesiarchy does in 40k - because its living via decade long-recycled memes at this point rather than a thing in itself, operating according to logical/consistent character development.

I mean, take your pick of European powers/Britain/America justifying their military adventurism or foreign policy by saying "Well, we really just had to do this, we didn't have a choice" while prattling on about the ideals they allegedly embody yet readily abandon the first time it's convenient. It's not like there isn't a long history of that dating back to the Raj and before.

This reminds me, the writers of "The Boys" should start doing BL books. That series has the type of satire I personally find appetizing to the degree the old 40K lore gave me

 tauist wrote:
This reminds me, the writers of "The Boys" should start doing BL books. That series has the type of satire I personally find appetizing to the degree the old 40K lore gave me

Yes! That's actual satire!

A heroic space Caesar is emo about genocide but still does it because he is a hard man making hard choices is not satire, it is accidental fascism apologia.

ccs wrote:
You could be helpful & list thise references so that those who're curious enough can do thier own research.

No, I can't. To do that, I'd have to list every commercial, news item, passing pop music reference, obscure political crises that actually never amounted to anything, etc.

I'd also have to immerse you in the Cold War, which is simply impossible to do because you know how it all turned out. At the time, that wasn't clear.

40k was very much a cynical product of the "maybe there isn't going to be a happy ending" mentality. That being the case, one might as well laugh at it.

 Crimson wrote:

 tauist wrote:
This reminds me, the writers of "The Boys" should start doing BL books. That series has the type of satire I personally find appetizing to the degree the old 40K lore gave me

Yes! That's actual satire!

A heroic space Caesar is emo about genocide but still does it because he is a hard man making hard choices is not satire, it is accidental fascism apologia.

While I appreciate that not everybody is familiar with it, but this would put Disco Elysium's fascist vision quest as "not satire".

Guilliman sees himself as a hard man making hard choices but he isn't, he's making easy, horrible choices. Not pressing the big red genocide button is the hard choice, here. Pressing the button and feeling sad about it is the absurdity, the vehicle for the satirical element of genocide ever being a good choice, let alone the correct one.

 Rihgu wrote:

Guilliman sees himself as a hard man making hard choices but he isn't, he's making easy, horrible choices. Not pressing the big red genocide button is the hard choice, here. Pressing the button and feeling sad about it is the absurdity, the vehicle for the satirical element of genocide ever being a good choice, let alone the correct one.

Except it is not treated like that. For the satire to work, it should be actually be presented as absurd and bad, but instead it is just represented as regrettable necessary evil.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

ccs wrote:
You could be helpful & list thise references so that those who're curious enough can do thier own research.

No, I can't. To do that, I'd have to list every commercial, news item, passing pop music reference, obscure political crises that actually never amounted to anything, etc.

I'd also have to immerse you in the Cold War, which is simply impossible to do because you know how it all turned out. At the time, that wasn't clear.

40k was very much a cynical product of the "maybe there isn't going to be a happy ending" mentality. That being the case, one might as well laugh at it.

Ok, you could be helpful & list some of them.
Pick say 5 obscure things & 1 of your favorites and (briefly) explain them.

Because people here on Dakka seem to fall into 2 broad categories - those of us who were around when the references were new/timely, & those who've only started playing this game in the past 5-10 years (or sooner).
We old dogs don't need the explanation. But the newcomers do so that they know what the hell you're talking about. What you're lamenting has been lost throughout the editions.

I think that satire as a whole doesn't really work when reality is already absurd.

We've got to the point where comically evil people aren't an exception but the rule and their short-sighted idiocy is either cheered or laughed at as harmless.

Bringing up The Boys as an example already doesn't work due to the frankly scary number of people who legitimately don't think Homelander is an evil mofo.

ccs wrote:
Ok, you could be helpful & list some of them.
Pick say 5 obscure things & 1 of your favorites and (briefly) explain them.

Because people here on Dakka seem to fall into 2 broad categories - those of us who were around when the references were new/timely, & those who've only started playing this game in the past 5-10 years (or sooner).
We old dogs don't need the explanation. But the newcomers do so that they know what the hell you're talking about. What you're lamenting has been lost throughout the editions.

Seriously, just go through the UK pop charts and TV offerings of that era and you're most of the way there. Check some of the newspaper archives for top stories as well.

The elephant in the room was the Cold War, which is really hard to relate to if you weren't there. Europe was an armed camp, with millions of troops glaring at each other across minefields. On the one hand, you had the West, freedom, democracy, warts and all and then the Iron Curtain, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the Iran-Iraq War, Red Brigades, The Troubles in Ireland, etc. Digging into that would probably cause some issues because of forum rules, so I'm not going to go deeper.

I will say this - it was also a more serious time, and so people were willing to tolerate more in the way of satire and outrageousness to blow off steam. The leaders of that era might not have been soldiers in WW II, but they grew up during or immediately aftwards and remembered hunger, rationing, ruins and what it was like to have a nation fight to last desperate inch - and what people were truly capable of. That's why no one in the 40k universe has any concept of mercy or pity. There is only war.

I think that outside of the anglo, and maybe the western cultural world, w40k "satire" does not translate well, because it doesn't sound like satire. The whole "there is only way and the imperium of men is falling apart, while there is war all around it". Sounds a bit different when you get to "enjoy" eastern europe or the balkans, after a few decades of communism and WWII.
All the gore and "scary" stuff, which I assume is either shock value and/or satire, I can just find within 50km or where I was born. happening in the span of last 100 years on a decade basis. The whole "and they horrible thing X, Y and Z" has a different edge to it, when the first thing you think while reading about it is "ah so what was done to grand uncles family in 1952".

came across a similar discussion on reddit recently and the intresting part here is that for people to understand the satire of 40k one need to understand Britain of the 80/90ies, need to read the old books and read some old novels

Like a big part of that discussion was what are Orks in 40k
if one only know the gaming material and some novels, they are the comic relief of the setting (meaning everything else is serious), some see them as symbol of the African communities (opressed by imperialism) and others as the true fascist of the setting (as there is some german WW2 style in the art and models).

The internet will tell you that the original Orks were modeled after Hooligans, but without knowing the details of the british football hooligans this does not mean much and the connections are not made


If one needs to read certain novels to relise that 40k is satire and the rulebook is not enough to make that point than 40k has already lost that aspect

Yeah British football hooliganism in the 70's and 80's is a fascinating subject, awful people of course but a lot more depth to it than many might think and definitely worth a deep dive for anyone with any interest in subversive subcultures.

On Guilliman? He is part of the overall satire and social commentary.

A Literal Demi-God of humanity. A being of near unlimited potential. Reduced to toeing the Imperium’s line. The slow corruption of who should’ve been a shining beacon of hope and renewal.

Gone from standing for mankind, to standing for the mere status quo. And perhaps reflection that, just perhaps, that’s what he’s always done since being reunified with his creator. The scales falling from his eyes that, just perhaps, The Imperium isn’t that far from the Great Crusade, just in a hyper religious wrapper. Because whether you’re forcing a religion or enforcing atheism, your tools and oppression remain the same. You’re still trampling all over a right to self determination and spiritual succour.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Guilliman? He is part of the overall satire and social commentary.

A Literal Demi-God of humanity. A being of near unlimited potential. Reduced to toeing the Imperium’s line. The slow corruption of who should’ve been a shining beacon of hope and renewal.

Gone from standing for mankind, to standing for the mere status quo. And perhaps reflection that, just perhaps, that’s what he’s always done since being reunified with his creator. The scales falling from his eyes that, just perhaps, The Imperium isn’t that far from the Great Crusade, just in a hyper religious wrapper. Because whether you’re forcing a religion or enforcing atheism, your tools and oppression remain the same. You’re still trampling all over a right to self determination and spiritual succour.

I think kicking this on isn't going to get an answer, as people just disagree.

But how is this "satire"? What is this sending up?

I mean I'm fairly versed on contemporary UK politics (....where to begin with the latest madness?). But a knowledge of that doesn't give any hidden meaning of 40k. Who in 40k is say the stand in for Boris, Truss, Sunak, Starmer, Corbyn (or Cameron, Brown, Blair, all the way back to Thatcher) etc? Ditto US politics - is Guilliman meant to be Trump? Or Biden? Not obviously. "Its a take on Imperialism, or the Cold War or the Iraq War, Guilliman is George Bush" - but again, it just isn't. A knowledge of these things doesn't give you any special insight into why Guilliman is a bit miffed the Imperium is being overwhelmed by its effectively infinite enemies.

I mean its perfectly possible for GW to write a story where there is an obvious 1:1 with contemporary real people/politics. But they don't.

In the olden days, presumably before GW realised they had an IP worth billions, they were happy to just steal things. "Hey, its Alexander the Great but in Spaaace". And if you know about Alexander the Great you can go "I see what you did there, its Alexander the Great in Spaaace". But even that's not obviously "satire" exactly. Unless we are meant to think its a criticism of Alexander the Great, which it doesn't seem to be.

It’s about how power corrupts. That The Imperium is so far gone, short of The Emperor stepping of his throne and putting his house in order, there’s no going back to the heady days of relative enlightenment that was the Great Crusade.

Satire needn’t be comedic, it can be irony on its own. And Guilliman, the single most powerful entity with The Imperium, who played a massive part in its initial Founding, is powerless to save it from itself, and has instead stooped to its level? That is irony.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s about how power corrupts. That The Imperium is so far gone, short of The Emperor stepping of his throne and putting his house in order, there’s no going back to the heady days of relative enlightenment that was the Great Crusade.

Satire needn’t be comedic, it can be irony on its own. And Guilliman, the single most powerful entity with The Imperium, who played a massive part in its initial Founding, is powerless to save it from itself, and has instead stooped to its level? That is irony.

I'll give you ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife. But there's a difference to my mind between "40k has comedic elements" and 40k is a satire. For Guilliman to be a satire, there should be some contemporary thing - person, society, event, whatever - that you can read into Guilliman. And as said, I don't think there is. Its certainly not obviously intentional (I realise that people can read anything into anything if they try hard enough.)

On the Ork thing, the people who think that Orks, like 40K Orks, or even Tolkien Orcs are supposed to be a stand in for Africans...well I'd say they have some reflection to do themselves.

Like Tolkien's Orcs fairly obviously at least influenced by the urban poor and people he met in the army from that sort of background.

And 40K Orks are obviously football hooligans in space.

If you're reading something else into it it probably says something about your own biases, or just ignorance of cultures outside your own.

Orks are also a pastiche of the “Barbarians at the Gate” trope.

As the now infamous musings of that Eldar point out, they’re seen as crude, when their society is incredibly robust, and evidently immensely successful.

When Ancient Rome was sacked by barbarians, were not talking Ooga Booga Me Hit With Rock primitives. At all. Were they less regimented than Rome? Sure. Yet….they still sacked Rome, and all Rome’s art, philosophy and social order went up in flames all the same.

The Football ‘Ooligan thing is likely a deliberate filter. A cipher for how the rich and powerful ultimately fear the poor, because there’s more of them, and they’re quite willing to fight for what they do have.

To quote “Common People” by Pulp?

You will never understand how it feels to live your life with no meaning of control and with nowhere left to go. You are amazed that they exist yet they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why.

Now, that is of course a somewhat romantic take on things, but the message holds true.

Yet at the same time the human poor of the 40k universe will walk into a mulching machine in a despondent manner because the imperium orders it. Which is probably a more biting satire than "they'll fight for what they have" which let's face it is usually not true if there is a propaganda machine blaming it on some "other". Hey, just like 40k. Kinda.

Yeah Orks and even more so WFB Orcs are influenced by the cultures that fought with the romans and eventually brought down the western empire. The checks and bright colours, boars as a symbol of strength are very celtic, and you've got woad warpaint and even just the Goffs lifted wholesale. But not much african about any of that.

WFB Savage Orcs are a whole other kettle of fish though, definitely african coded and not in a very thoughtful or pleasant way.

Dai wrote:
Yeah British football hooliganism in the 70's and 80's is a fascinating subject, awful people of course but a lot more depth to it than many might think and definitely worth a deep dive for anyone with any interest in subversive subcultures.

See and here is where we hit the first problem. "Hooligan" football clans in eastern europe are an essential part of not just daily life, but culture. There are conflicts between some that are close to century old. And they are so important that EVERYONE has to be part of it. Teachers, officials, police etc. They have impact on life, for example lets say you get kicked out of school, the official don't want you to die, so they have to check where you live (which decides which clan you support) and then they have to find a school where your "people" go to. Clans have ally, and sub division clubs are part of fellowships of bigger clans. Both police and criminals recruit from the ultras, and in some case (like the "Sharks" of the White Star) the clan become so powerful that they run their own stuff. Politician hire them to break up rallies of other candidates or for "unknown assiliants" to beat up a judge or high ranking officials that check stuff they shouldn't check. Professional sports are also part of it, because of beting and sponsorships. Especialy in football stuff like players being beaten by "unknown fans" is maybe not common, but it does happen. It is not a subculture it is a the culture. I mean when a clan has more members then the local police and city guard combined, there is nothing sub about them.

Yet at the same time the human poor of the 40k universe will walk into a mulching machine in a despondent manner because the imperium orders it. Which is probably a more biting satire than "they'll fight for what they have" which let's face it is usually not true if there is a propaganda machine blaming it on some "other".

When the other option is to walkin in to a mulching machine that belongs to someone else then fellow humans, the decision starts to make a lot more sense. Every eastern and balkan war fought to the very end, can be explained by it. That is why I am saying it from a western perspective all those w40k things can be comedy, satire or philosophical reflection on the state of menkind. To use it is more of a ,how do I say this, like life. The "pray they won't take you alive" is not meme here. And I am sure other cultures in other parts of the world have could have similar views (as in w40k not very much a satire. I don't know how popular w40k is in southern parts of China, but a "hive city", with its factories that never go to sleep, must hit different.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah Orks and even more so WFB Orcs are influenced by the cultures that fought with the romans and eventually brought down the western empire. The checks and bright colours, boars as a symbol of strength are very celtic, and you've got woad warpaint and even just the Goffs lifted wholesale. But not much african about any of that.

WFB Savage Orcs are a whole other kettle of fish though, definitely african coded and not in a very thoughtful or pleasant way.

Dunno. Savage Orcs are just…primitives. The Picts and Celts used to go into battle “Skyclad” as a sign of bravery. And trust, coming from that area of the world, going nuddy in that weather is brave enough. And there’s plenty of solid archaeological evidence for Antler being used as tools and weapons in pre-Roman Scotland.

So I don’t agree Savage Orcs are inherently African coded.

Yeah, wasn't the "kilt" an english invention, because they, being christians, had enough of half naked or full naked scots coming to the markets and selling cattle?
We had people like that too the Prus (eradicated by the Teutonic Knights around XIV-XVth century) and the Żmudins (almost eradicated by the Teutonic Knights and then we finished them with mass colonisation after plagues in XVIth century).

Kilt was invented by the English because the traditional cloths of the workes were not doing well with the factory machines

 Da Boss wrote:
If you're reading something else into it it probably says something about your own biases, or just ignorance of cultures outside your own.

or just not being into western Europe post WW2 history and don't live in a country were this is important

that one need to know a very specific thing that is even unkown to most Europeans (as also hooligans are not everywhere the same, like I only know about british football Hooligans because I read that Orks are based on them and therefore researched it because Orks are nothing like the Hooligans here) to get the joke is a problem

it is also ignorant of thinking that everyone needs to know that specific cultural thing and that people from other cultures make different connections

just because something is obvious for you with your cultural background does not make people ingorant who don't see the connection because they have a very different cultural background

My point is about assuming Brutal-Simple-Violent = African, not about not knowing about Football Hooligans in particular.

Americans have a tendency to project their racial politics onto everything, and I was referring to that in my comment about not knowing about cultures outside your own. I don't think people need to know that they're based on hooligans, just that they're obviously not based on Africans.

Still, I get why my post would come off poorly, and apologise for that.

On the Savage Orcs thing, I disagree with you there Mad Dok, if they're based on Picts, why are they all from the Southlands, where the heat does something weird to their brains?

Is it just a co-incidence that Savage Orcs are common in the part of the Old World that corresponds to real world Africa? I highly doubt it.

I maintain that a big part of the issue is that 40k lore has definitely shifted from "look at these idiots who deliberately make their empire an inefficient mess and worship a toaster" to "blind faith is a survival requirement to ward off daemons and everything the Imperium does is required to survive".

As soon as your evil empire actually needs to be horrifically oppressive to survive, rather than simply thinking it does but actually makes everything worse, your setting now justifies totalitarianism rather than satirising it.

I think this shift really began around 5th edition, but the seeds are earlier. The Horus Heresy is a big part of this with stuff like saints overtly defeating daemons through faith.

 Haighus wrote:
I maintain that a big part of the issue is that 40k lore has definitely shifted from "look at these idiots who deliberately make their empire an inefficient mess and worship a toaster" to "blind faith is a survival requirement to ward off daemons and everything the Imperium does is required to survive".

As soon as your evil empire actually needs to be horrifically oppressive to survive, rather than simply thinking it does but actually makes everything worse, your setting now justifies totalitarianism rather than satirising it.

I think this shift really began around 5th edition, but the seeds are earlier. The Horus Heresy is a big part of this with stuff like saints overtly defeating daemons through faith.

Yes, that's the core of it. And I think it was mainly caused by Black Library and HH in particular. Once you start to sell books which get to personal level, you want to hake the characters appealing to the readers, and it is hard to do if they're presented as misguided idiotic bigots. It is way easier if you write them as noble defenders of civilisation. And once start you write about the movers and shakers of this totalitarian state in this way, you have pretty seriously shifted the tone from the satire to apologia.