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It seems like every new combat patrol GW has come out with has 1) Contained fewer models than the previous version, 2) Been less points overall, and 3) Been more expensive than the previous one.

At this point, you are paying $180 USD for a smaller piece of an army than ever before to play a stripped-down version of the main game, and because you're getting fewer points you have to spend more and more to expand your force for proper games. Compare that to almost all of GW's competitors. Bolt Action has starter armies for ~$160 USD that give you a complete 1000 (sometimes more) point force, which is the normal/tournament size for games. Sure, you might not have variety to swap out units but you can play the full game for your investment, not a barebones version with dumbed-down rules.

This got me thinking. Is it high time GW adopted 1000 points as the standard, so you buy a combat patrol box, buy a vehicle/character/extra squad/etc. and should be getting to normal game sizes?. They could still allow for higher points if people wanted, but standardize on 1000 points as "normal" 40k. Otherwise, it will just keep feeling like you are being cheated by getting less and paying more.

What do you think?

With GW’s desire to sell more models, I doubt it.

They have the combat patrols to give you an entry level of play until you work up to a 2k list. And to be fair, the game still has options to play at less then 2k tournament lists. Nothing stopping you and the guys from putting 1k armies down and having fun.

Might also work better on the smaller boards nowadays?

I am disappointed by the Combat Patrols too. Some have ludicrously low model counts for the price they're charging.

 Da Boss wrote:
Might also work better on the smaller boards nowadays?

I am disappointed by the Combat Patrols too. Some have ludicrously low model counts for the price they're charging.

I think it's a good idea, executed poorly. And compounded by the low model count/low value of models.

I would prefer it myself. Even some non horde army getting big on the battlefield nowadays.

I'd like it too - I've found myself preferring smaller scale games to massive ones.

I wouldn't be opposed.

Does the game play well at such small levels these days though, it always seems very high lethality.

In point of fact, GW themselves have not, since 8th, ever printed in any rulebook that I'm aware of that 2k IS the default.

That is done by stores and TO's.

GW's rules don't actually privilege one game size over another (to my knowledge).

Now if the question is "Should stores and TOs change the default to 1k?" then my answer is yes, with a caveat: I think it's time to eliminate the notion of "default" altogether. That's a radical idea, which of course cannot be practically executed, but the closer we move to it the more versatile the game will be.

Issue 500 White Dwarf has a 36 page battle report with a) a small boarding action battle b) a Kill Team game and c) a two on two battle using allied forces on both sides; all of these battles take place simultaneously and the incidents on the small side tables affect the action on the "main" battlefield. This is awesome, of course, and difficult to duplicate- you need 6-8 players on 3 tables to do it, or you play it asynchronously with a mate over three sessions.

But it shouldn't feel as exotic as it does. This type of play, I think, should be normalized. There is a Grand Narrative event, which is a start. Every Crusade campaign out of a store is a step, every combat patrol league, is a step in the right direction, and locally I've seen both (anecdotal of course). I'm not advocating for disconnecting from tournaments; I advocate for development in other areas.

I've always thought that 2nd ed 40K style game sizes were the "sweet spot" for 28mm games on typical board sizes. Therefore 1000 pts of modern 40K as default sounds good to me.

For larger games, we should be using Epic scale anyways.. Too many 28mil models on a typical table just makes for unaesthetic parking lot games where positioning/terrain matters less

I would love it if there were more 1K leagues and tournaments happening, In fact I may just run one. I find starting an army that's intended to stop at 1k less daunting and it keeps project more interesting and less of a grind.

Nah.

As covered, if peeps want to play 1k points, there’s nothing stopping them. The game does work at smaller size.

But the standard? Nope.

One of the reasons 2nd Ed got messy was ever growing collections being fielded as single armies, when the underlying rules had a firm, practical points ceiling. Much above 2,000 points and you spent a lot of time mucking about with End Phase shenanigans and weirdness.

3rd Ed, whilst I’ll always argue went overly so, was simplified enough that it had a much higher practical points ceiling. And even when you weee brushing or knee deep in Rules Clunk, you were at least spending most of your time actually doing stuff with your models.

I do agree there should be a push for smaller games being represented in the tournament scene. Not only are they typically played faster, but it’s less of an entry barrier to relative newcomers or new armies who Just Want To Play New People.

In further support, I’d also argue the new army selection helps avoid monotony in smaller sized games. Consider the 3rd Ed Necrons. Two squads of 20 Warriors and a Lord were pretty much a 500 point army. So at 1,000, an opponent just wouldn’t see much if any real variety against Necrons, or any other army with scant Troop options. Now? Much less so.

Just priced up the last two 2,000 point armies I used if bought from GW's website:

Death Guard were £591.50.

Thousand Sons were £645.00.

You should be able to find 20% off and might be able to build your army around a bundle or two.

But I do think in a few more years we might end up wondering why there aren't enough new players.

Or maybe I'm not comparing it to the right alternative hobbies and what their starting costs might be.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Just priced up the last two 2,000 point armies I used if bought from GW's website:

Death Guard were £591.50.

Thousand Sons were £645.00.

You should be able to find 20% off and might be able to build your army around a bundle or two.

But I do think in a few more years we might end up wondering why there aren't enough new players.

Or maybe I'm not comparing it to the right alternative hobbies and what their starting costs might be.

Xbox or Playstations are well into the £4-500 bracket and you have to pay for that all in one go. Models you can spread out.

I think the real risk is that even single character models are now easily £20 or more and I feel like that IS having an impact on things like gifts and presents. However over the last two years the price on almost every single thing is "oh that's rather expensive". From food to luxuries everything has crawled up a lot all very suddenly so very suddenly everything feels like it really does cost too much.

GW are possibly one of the few where the price hasn't done a sudden jump, but just their regular creeping rise; but its still higher.




Also I don't think the price of an army at 2K points is a problem. A 2K army should be the price you pay for an army once you are locked into GW as a hobby. The issue in the past was with games like Old World where you had to start at 1.5K-2K to get going. That put a huge cost and time barrier of entry. Today GW has Killteam, Underworlds, Warcry, Their new battlebox thingy mode that's coming out for 40K. There are LOTS of ways to get into the game now with just one box and go (esp with pushfit models).
The barrier isn't so much the total cost of the hobby, its the entry point and 2K armies shouldn't be your entry point. That's your end goal

But we've done this dance before - some hobbies cost more than others. Get into digital photography with a good camera and that 2K army will just get you a basic mirrorless interchangable lens camera with kit lens and a memory card. Want a mid-range? That's going to cost you WAY WAY more

Cost wise, this is a pretty odd fish in the world of Hobbies.

Music, fishing, sports, crafting all require some hefty upfront investment. Even an acoustic guitar isn’t just a few quid.

Warhammer and Wargames? It does have an upfront cost, but depending on your preference that can be spread across a few months of disposable income.

We also have multiple strands to it. For instance, until recently my Hobby was pretty much collecting and building, and talking utter bollocks with the odd interesting thought here on Dakka. But since January I’ve ploughed through my pile of shame.

And it’s when you’re doing Hobby I argue the value changes. And it will vary between Hobbyists. My paintjobs are quick and cheaty to get an army done. My mate, Psysquig Painting is about the painting competition and constantly pushing his skills and techniques.

Let’s say Psysquig and I both buy Lion El’Jonson. For me? That’s primarily a playing piece and I expect to spend maybe three or four hours painting him (and I do need to remember he’s there to be painted). Psysquig? He’d want to do noodly freehand and NMM etc. He takes yonks to paint a single piece for a competition entry.

At this stage? I’ve spent the some money, and invested less time in the painting. If we leave it there, arguably Psysquig has extracted the better value. But…once I get The Lion on the board? Now I’m adding value to my cost. Even if use him once a month over 12 months? That’s maybe 36-48 hours depending on the size of the game. And if I enjoy those games, we really start introducing an X factor.

My point put plainly? Just because the price isn’t cheap, doesn’t mean it’s of low value.

I mean, just for Heresy I’ve spent £1,647.00 RRP on models alone. That’s a massive, eye watering “what the hell did I do that for?” Sum of money.

But…it’s taken me since 1 January to, well, today of doing some hobby every day to be within sight of the finishing line, and having it all painted. Which in turn means I can now play regular games with fully painted models in a variety of points sizes and lists going forward. And, provided I stop buying*, my costs are now broadly capped. £2 for all day gaming at my FLGS, and…that’s about it.

So, if I can arrange a game a week? That’s £104 a year, for 200+ hours of Things To Do. And the more often I game, the more the overall “Cost Per Hour” improves. And if I spend all a Saturday playing two games, that’s still just £2.

Value Extraction. That’s what it’s about. And it’s by no means universal at all. If you can only really play in Tournaments, you’ll get fewer games with an inherent added cost of entry.

I dunno, you can get a cheap rod and some hooks for cheap enough if you want to start fishing.

Crafting, depending on what you are doing, is also very cheap.

GW wargames are expensive. And compared to the broader wargaming hobby, they're still very expensive. You can get high quality plastics for historical wargaming for much, much less than you pay for GW stuff.

I still broadly agree though that this hobby is very slow grow, pay a chunk at a time. But when I look at a 20 euro character, the value just isn't there for me. I thought 12.50 was steep for a single infantry character. Some are lovely, like that Genestealer Cult Magus, but I could never bring myself to pay that much for a single mini these days.

Locally, 1000 is honestly a bit more standard than 2000. It's easy to show up whenever, get in a relatively quick game or even two with shorter downtime between turns and feel like you go the experience. The main thing stopping 1000k games is just that scenarios are spread a little wide and you sometimes get done with turn 2-3 and realize the rest of the game is going to be spent re-engaging. That's the main issue with 1k in my experience.

As for 2k? I feel like its more of what people actually want in terms of 40k's scale, but I could see it becoming 1.5k easily enough. It really comes down to scenario design, IMO.

 Da Boss wrote:
I dunno, you can get a cheap rod and some hooks for cheap enough if you want to start fishing.

Crafting, depending on what you are doing, is also very cheap.

GW wargames are expensive. And compared to the broader wargaming hobby, they're still very expensive. You can get high quality plastics for historical wargaming for much, much less than you pay for GW stuff.

I still broadly agree though that this hobby is very slow grow, pay a chunk at a time. But when I look at a 20 euro character, the value just isn't there for me. I thought 12.50 was steep for a single infantry character. Some are lovely, like that Genestealer Cult Magus, but I could never bring myself to pay that much for a single mini these days.

True. But with GW games, I know I’m unlikely to have to worry about finding opponents. Historicals? I’d need to find a group, figure out which rule set they use, and which scale.

And I do get GW’s prices can be too high. Without intending as a response to you personally, but as a wider comment? As a general approach, I don’t see the point in arguing the depths of one’s pockets, so it’s just something we have to accept and not waste time trying to persuade one another about If I find value, it doesn’t impart implicit value

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I dunno, you can get a cheap rod and some hooks for cheap enough if you want to start fishing.

Crafting, depending on what you are doing, is also very cheap.

GW wargames are expensive. And compared to the broader wargaming hobby, they're still very expensive. You can get high quality plastics for historical wargaming for much, much less than you pay for GW stuff.

I still broadly agree though that this hobby is very slow grow, pay a chunk at a time. But when I look at a 20 euro character, the value just isn't there for me. I thought 12.50 was steep for a single infantry character. Some are lovely, like that Genestealer Cult Magus, but I could never bring myself to pay that much for a single mini these days.

True. But with GW games, I know I’m unlikely to have to worry about finding opponents. Historicals? I’d need to find a group, figure out which rule set they use, and which scale.

And I do get GW’s prices can be too high. Without intending as a response to you personally, but as a wider comment? As a general approach, I don’t see the point in arguing the depths of one’s pockets, so it’s just something we have to accept and not waste time trying to persuade one another about If I find value, it doesn’t impart implicit value

Both very good points - plus lets face it today if you're gaming at anywhere that isn't a GW store, there are a LOOOT of 3rd party options now for counts as armies. Plus I can see One Page Rules as a system rising up fairly quick because you can use all those common GW models in it AND a bunch from other creators as well. Indeed if they play their cards right I can see it becoming the DnD of Wargaming. The open system everyone can tap into and use with whatever and help ensure that there's at least a playerbase in most areas.

Possibly, but as I said about Epic or BFG a wee while back in another thread?

I don’t want to simply play an 6-8mm scale sci-fi wargame. I don’t simply want to play a capital ship oriented sci-fi naval game.

I want to play Epic Space Marine and Battlefleet Gothic specifically. Both for assuaging of old man nostalgia, the overall aesthetic, and ever more interesting background to pack into my idiot head to proper insulate the clever bit I need for work.

Sure, I could still use One Page (quite the misnomer 🤣🤣) to field the models I like - but I want my Tyranids to being fed on a diet of Space Marines (high in protein, super low in fat), not Weedy Spartans or random anime inspired massive jugged combat catgirls.

Wayniac wrote:
It seems like every new combat patrol GW has come out with has 1) Contained fewer models than the previous version, 2) Been less points overall, and 3) Been more expensive than the previous one.

At this point, you are paying $180 USD for a smaller piece of an army than ever before to play a stripped-down version of the main game, and because you're getting fewer points you have to spend more and more to expand your force for proper games. Compare that to almost all of GW's competitors. Bolt Action has starter armies for ~$160 USD that give you a complete 1000 (sometimes more) point force, which is the normal/tournament size for games. Sure, you might not have variety to swap out units but you can play the full game for your investment, not a barebones version with dumbed-down rules.

This got me thinking. Is it high time GW adopted 1000 points as the standard, so you buy a combat patrol box, buy a vehicle/character/extra squad/etc. and should be getting to normal game sizes?. They could still allow for higher points if people wanted, but standardize on 1000 points as "normal" 40k. Otherwise, it will just keep feeling like you are being cheated by getting less and paying more.

What do you think?

I disagree. You seem to be coming at this from a cost (dollars wise) perspective. I care more about game play, since spending on GW is a long term thing. I prefer the game at 1500 and 2000 points in terms of what we can have on the table and balance. Cost of entry is something that GW does have to consider, which I why I think we have Combat Patrol. There are plenty of Youtube videos right now about how the new Combat Patrols are less value than the earlier ones and I assume that your post is in reaction to those, but its kind of a moot point. I certainly don't see people playing Combat Patrol locally.

1000 point games can be fun, but they can also be quite unbalanced and swingy. I've had fun at 1000 and 1250 tourneys, but those were "narrative" events. I prefer full games at the 1500 and 2000 point level for my standard Saturday outing.

At the end of the day, each community will trend towards a standard, with or without GW. In my experience, that standard is between 1500 and 2000 points.

Are you playing 40K 10th Ed?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I mean, just for Heresy I’ve spent £1,647.00 RRP on models alone. That’s a massive, eye watering “what the hell did I do that for?” Sum of money.

But…it’s taken me since 1 January to, well, today of doing some hobby every day to be within sight of the finishing line, and having it all painted. Which in turn means I can now play regular games with fully painted models in a variety of points sizes and lists going forward. And, provided I stop buying*, my costs are now broadly capped. £2 for all day gaming at my FLGS, and…that’s about it.

And, last I checked, you've yet to get through basing your 30k army (though you have the LI one), so there's more "hobby value" to come from that side of things.

Shhhh! Quiet!

My brushes will hear you.

But yes. 142 infantry, 11 Dreadnoughts and 6 Jetbikes all need basing.

To be honest? Probably a weekend’s work at most. Just need to source a suitable Large Pot Of Textured Paint. And some extra Aggrax/

When I was teaching my son how to play 40K, I found 1200 points to be a nice spot.

It felt like there was enough models on the board yet didn't feel like it clogged the modern size table.

I'm not a fan of 2000 points but it generally has been the defacto size in order for me to get games in.

It would probably help to introduce two new modes...

- 500 points based on Boarding Patrol mustering rules. Pretty much only the most suitable foot soliders, and the splitting of large units into two smaller ones. An ideal next step for a Kill Team player.

- 2500 points and greater, where light vehicles and larger are the order of the day keeping model counts to a minimum. No more silly moments such as a Tau pathfinder team expected to stand it's ground against the lowering foot of a Warhound titan, and Bugzilla players no longer need feel ashamed of their fetish.


...something like that.

 PenitentJake wrote:
In point of fact, GW themselves have not, since 8th, ever printed in any rulebook that I'm aware of that 2k IS the default.

That is done by stores and TO's.

the TOs and stores do that, but that is because at less then 2000pts some armies are unplayable. 1000pts imperial knights, GK, custodes just do not work. They even split well in to 1000pts. 200pts units with 100+points characters end in an army, that has 30-60pts and nothing to spend it on to make it really efficient. Meanwhile for the undercosted armies and the hordes this is heaven, because they just play their army streamlined to the most effficient stuff. Unit X , lets say chaos knights, is costed and has specific rules based on the ability of a 2000pts army to kill Y number of them per turn. Well in a 1000pts match up the scoring and missions work the same, but ability to kill is halfed.
Worse if an army has limited slots, for lets say anti tank, losing those early makes up for horrible games. Or maybe an armies way to deal with vehicles is to choke them with units. Well now they can't do it because the math skews against them, and suddenly their unfun to begin Ad Mecha army is even more unfun, as hard as it was to imagine.

Something like Ctan, bully boys in 1000pts or eldar with their fixed mortals on miracle dice would be horrible to expiriance as an opponent. For it to work, it would require no more or less, but its own rules, pre build armies etc And GW already tried that with patrol and failed hard with it.

I always like 1500 in both 40k and Fantasy. 1000 always seemed to leave you with to little after the basic or compulsory stuff and didn't seem to play particularly amazingly unless the lists were very streamlined and even then the first unit to die or break often decided the game. 1500 allowed you to have a functional list with two or three luxuries thrown in too. 2000 leans too far toward the luxuries. YMMV

Dai wrote:
I always like 1500 in both 40k and Fantasy. 1000 always seemed to leave you with to little after the basic or compulsory stuff and didn't seem to play particularly amazingly unless the lists were very streamlined and even then the first unit to die or break often decided the game. 1500 allowed you to have a functional list with two or three luxuries thrown in too. 2000 leans too far toward the luxuries. YMMV

I feel 10th Ed has somewhat addressed that, as we don’t have “Tax” units as such. Yes it’s still a good idea to have a decent amount of basic infantry, but we don’t need to field them.

So now, even at 1,000 points, I can field a Nidzilla list of uncertain effectiveness, as where I land big on sheer killing and staying power? I lose out massively on objective control.

That is true, but from what I understand pre 8th ed, there was no need for order monkeys or similar stuff.

Right now stuff gets bought in packs/formations that are 300-400pts strong, and sometimes more. There is also a question of effciency. There is a reason why certain units are and certain aren't run in armies that exist in w40k. If a good unit has to be run x3 to be effective, it maybe hard to find points for regular troops. Custodes are like that. They run one unit of guard, and they only run it because of an ally inquisitor. If they couldn't take here or prosecutors were still battle line we would see 0 guard on the tables.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

One of the reasons 2nd Ed got messy was ever growing collections being fielded as single armies, when the underlying rules had a firm, practical points ceiling. Much above 2,000 points and you spent a lot of time mucking about with End Phase shenanigans and weirdness.

We went to the GTs so had 1500 as the default to build armies to.

I would love it if tournies became 1000, but I think it would throw up to many balance problems given the current default. 1500 should be a no brainer though. Would make everything a lot more relaxed.

My favourite format recently was 8th edition 500 points. Use sensible restrictions and the game was great fun.