Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I reckon Dark Eldar should be the "default" Eldar in 40K and Craftworlders should be much more of a rare, background player kind of thing.
Thematically, I think they work better. They're dissolute and decadent, as suits a super old, super advanced civilization. They properly look down on the other species and really don't care for them. I think it's better that way than having Eldar/Human team ups being on the cards on a large scale. They're also a highly advanced species that uses a lot of skimmer tech, but they're close assault focused. That leaves the highly advanced skimmer tech but long ranged niche for the Tau. It also allows a contrast by having them be the optimistic high tech race vs. the jaded Dark Eldar.
I also prefer more Celtic bad guy elves, more Pratchett Lords and Ladies than Tolkien's LOTR elves. High Elves in Space are not as cool as Dark Elves in space. You shouldn't be relieved to see them coming, ever.

Logistically, I think they also make more sense. Surviving in the Webway is sneakier and more in keeping with the Elvish Otherworld theme you get in a lot of fairy stories. Craftworlds are cool, but being in the Webway means Dark Eldar can really be anywhere, as small raiding parties with little other support, which I think fits really well with their theming.

And lastly I think the models are just cooler. They played an absolute blinder with the 5e redesign, and I love their various skiffs and hoverboards, as well as their armour and helmet designs. The only part of the range I think doesn't quite work is the Haemonculi Covens, with Wracks in particular not quite landing for me.

That's not to say I hate Craftworld Eldar. They're pretty cool as a subfaction of Eldar and Craftworlds are a cool idea. The Path system, Aspect Warriors, the Farseers, all of it is really cool stuff. But I think they work better as a much smaller remnant of the Eldar than the Dark Eldar. Which I think they technically are, but you'd never know it by their treatment in the background!

I’d argue the Craftworlders are the more nefarious presence.

Whilst a Commorite will raid planets for slaves? Craftworlders think nothing of causing a world to fall because, at some point in the future, the consequences will save some Eldar lives. And that’s not a “one in, one out” deal. It could be billions of deaths to preserve a single Eldar life.

You know you can’t trust a Commorite. And Commorites don’t seem to care you know you can’t trust them.

Craftworlders though? There’s always the pretence you can trust them.

I agree the DE are more like orks in the sense that they are out there, they are the bed guys, and they want to kill you. Pretty much straight forward xenos villains. Craftworlders are a much more subtle, nefarious evil (to humanity).

I also agree that a lot of the craftworld space was taken over by Tau. I have a clear memory when they released of thinking “these are the rules Eldar should have had”. But I may have been a little bitter about the shuricain catapult nerf still. But as someone who has a soft spot for grav armor, I felt a noticeable incursion into eldar space.

Honestly, I'm not sure there's really a "default" flavor of eldar these days. They get roughly the same (lack of) spotlight in BL novels. They seem to appear roughly as often as one another in other factions' stories. The only way in which craftworlders strike me as the "default" over drukhari is that "dark eldar" is a modified version of "eldar." But that's just because one came out before the other.

As someone who plays and loves both, they both have their place and they both get used as the situation demands. Need some moustache-twirling bad guys to root against? Bring in a raiding party. Need some mysterious magic elves to drop a cryptic plot hook or show up out of the blue for a fight? Bring in the craftworlders.

Drukhari could definitely use some model support though.

Nah, Craftworlders are definitely the main Eldar. In all three of the Dawn of War games, and I'd be willing to bet showing up in far more Black Library novels. Have Dark Eldar ever had a novel where one of them was the protagonist?

I have to say the only thing I think is too much with them is the literally de-aging from being in the presence of suffering. I think that's a bit too over the top, and I like it better if a section of their society is just so decadent they enjoy that stuff. I'd be alright if pain-thirst was an affliction that some of them could "catch", maybe that's how you end up with Haemonculi and Wracks, but I think it's a bit too supernatural for the basic Dark Eldar.

Craftworlders are much more politically active and less isolationist, IMO, so they lend themselves to being the more obvious faction. Dark Eldar obviously interact with the other factions frequently, but usually only in the same way as a farmer harvesting livestock. They rarely take an interest in the plots and activities of other factions. They are mostly aloof due to the safety of their home.

On the other hand, Craftworlders are constantly meddling with other groups to ensure their own survival, because they are stuck in realspace.

 Da Boss wrote:
Have Dark Eldar ever had a novel where one of them was the protagonist?

Yes they had https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Eldar_(Novel_Series)

 Da Boss wrote:
I reckon Dark Eldar should be the "default" Eldar in 40K and Craftworlders should be much more of a rare, background player kind of thing.
Thematically, I think they work better. They're dissolute and decadent, as suits a super old, super advanced civilization. They properly look down on the other species and really don't care for them. I think it's better that way than having Eldar/Human team ups being on the cards on a large scale. They're also a highly advanced species that uses a lot of skimmer tech, but they're close assault focused. That leaves the highly advanced skimmer tech but long ranged niche for the Tau. It also allows a contrast by having them be the optimistic high tech race vs. the jaded Dark Eldar.
I also prefer more Celtic bad guy elves, more Pratchett Lords and Ladies than Tolkien's LOTR elves. High Elves in Space are not as cool as Dark Elves in space. You shouldn't be relieved to see them coming, ever.

Logistically, I think they also make more sense. Surviving in the Webway is sneakier and more in keeping with the Elvish Otherworld theme you get in a lot of fairy stories. Craftworlds are cool, but being in the Webway means Dark Eldar can really be anywhere, as small raiding parties with little other support, which I think fits really well with their theming.

And lastly I think the models are just cooler. They played an absolute blinder with the 5e redesign, and I love their various skiffs and hoverboards, as well as their armour and helmet designs. The only part of the range I think doesn't quite work is the Haemonculi Covens, with Wracks in particular not quite landing for me.

That's not to say I hate Craftworld Eldar. They're pretty cool as a subfaction of Eldar and Craftworlds are a cool idea. The Path system, Aspect Warriors, the Farseers, all of it is really cool stuff. But I think they work better as a much smaller remnant of the Eldar than the Dark Eldar. Which I think they technically are, but you'd never know it by their treatment in the background!

Depends what context you are coming from.

It seems like all you're looking for is an obviously evil faction to oppose the imperium, given the examples. something that makes the imperium look good by comparison.

The craftworlds don't occupy an evil antagonist position, instead (along with tau) having one of the few protagonist positions outside the imperium.

Pushing dark Eldar just seems to be a way to centralise the protagonism onto the imperium even more.

Hellebore: Nah, that's not what I'm about (though I can see why it might look like that). I'm a Xenos guy through and through.

I'd tone down the evil of the Dark Eldar (been overdone since they were introduced in my opinion) and have that as only one part of their culture. I think the Eldar work better as piratical raiders than solemn high elves is all.

This comes from my taste in fantasy elf archetypes much more than any desire to make the Imperium look good.

I don't agree with you that only Tau, Imperials and Eldar are protagonist factions. I think all factions can be protagonist factions, though Oldcrons and Tyranids do require a certain mindset to appreciate that as a way to play them.

If anything, the Super-Friends Team Up aspect of Eldar and Imperials is one of the things that annoys me about Craftworlders. They always end up allying with the Imperials in campaigns and I prefer my Xenos implacably opposed to the Imperium, if not to humanity. After all, it expressly wants obliterate them all. The Gathering Storm plot is a good example of the god awful writing that happens when you have the Imperials and Eldar teaming up.

I definitely feel the Asuryani could benefit from leaning into their weirdo alien puritan psychology more since it seems an underused dramatic beat.

Sounds like you would like Eldar Corsairs to have a bigger role in 40k. I'd be in favour of this- I've always thought the outcasts of Eldar society are the most interesting.

Plus, by far the most common Eldar any given faction would encounter is the Corsairs as they routinely raid planets and shipping. The fact they have mostly been reduced to a unit or two or counts-as (or an expensive Forge World list at one point) is a real shame.

They have a good core to the model range with the Corsairs and Rangers kits. Add specialists and vehicles and a Corsair prince HQ and they would be great.

The concept of an entire faction being a protagonist- or evil- faction was deafeningly amplified by the division of dark eldar and [default] eldar in 1998. The practice of a faction being dark or [normal] is also fething stupefying and I don't respect it at all. That is, it makes people stupider when they encounter it in a noncritical context.

Contrast the divided eldar with the "unknown eldar mercenary," who is the father from the infamous Illiyan Nastase article in January '88. This mercenary could be anything, hes actually want you want from a character. Nastase is born on Badab after the expulsion of the tyrant. So the dad could be a friendly visitor to the tyrant, or raiding the tyrant ob his own, or working for anti-tyrant forces. The relationship between the parents could be an epic romance between equal-status adventurers, it could be sexual assault, a fling, prostitution, or a political marriage. Whichever one of those it is, it involves actual protagonists and villains. You don't know by what faction they're from whether a character is, as you say, evil or protagonist.

With the advent of Dark Eldar, you can now tell that someone is evil because they're wearing an evil dark eldar hat with razorbpades on it. As we know from Nastase's dad, this has not always been true even for GW. A character from almost any faction can be anything. A character that's Imperial, chaos, or eldar could be an openly predatory brigand, could be a genuine Robin Hood style hero, could be a megalomaniac who thinks he's Robin Hood but is occasionally good only to his sycophants. A given Eldar could be a paladin type character who allies with other PCs, or a paladin character who righteously slays all those PCs for being servants of the Imperium, or a paladin who slays those PCs die to being bigoted against humans, or ideally a dark-eldar-style paladin who slays those PCs for the normal reasons IRL knights kill people.

The Dark Eldar Path novels have this stupid disease of evil dark eldar and protagonist craftworlders. As a result, even though they're dark eldar novels, one ofnthe main characters spends their time defecting to a craftworld and learning how to not be an evil dark eldar anymore.



Yeah I definitely think Dark Eldar should absorb the good models from the aspect warrior, guardian, ghost warrior, and farseer boxes. They definitely shouldn't be sidekicks to the Imperium like craftworlders currently are. They should feth the Imperium up - sometimes out of bigotry, sometimes because Imperium bad and the dark eldar are just protecting themselves, usually both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
Sounds like you would like Eldar Corsairs to have a bigger role in 40k.

This is an anodyne recharacterization. The request in the OP is for eldar as a whole have the same amount of agency as Corsairs do. That imo, of course.

It's not weird to want characters for be actual characters. Your allies and enemies often use roughly the same equipment. Members of an allied army can rob or assault you on a personal level, and members of an enemy army can be good to you and may often have the more righteous cause overall.

For a lot of people, 40k and things like video games or anime are their only cultural inputs. They don't even necessarily recognize references like the cruiser Eisenstein or Caliban and Prospero. This is it, 40k is their art and folklore. So yes, it does need to be truthful and not some horseapples about the righteous west vs the exotic east, or other good faction vs evil faction cosmology

 Da Boss wrote:
Nah, Craftworlders are definitely the main Eldar. In all three of the Dawn of War games, and I'd be willing to bet showing up in far more Black Library novels. Have Dark Eldar ever had a novel where one of them was the protagonist?

Dark Eldar novels that spring to mind:
* The Path of the Dark Eldar Trilogy
* The Lelith book coming out in the near future
* Arguably Lukas the Trickster as the drukhari get relatively even screen time with the Wolves and are, frankly, so well-written that you can almost kind of root for them. That book feels like a love letter to both wolves and DE, basically.

Craftworld novels that spring to mind:
* The Path of the Eldar trilogy.
* Valedor
* Asurmen
* Jain Zar
* Also the Goto books, but most eldar fans prefer to forget those exist.

So not a huge disparity in BL novels.

I have to say the only thing I think is too much with them is the literally de-aging from being in the presence of suffering. I think that's a bit too over the top, and I like it better if a section of their society is just so decadent they enjoy that stuff. I'd be alright if pain-thirst was an affliction that some of them could "catch", maybe that's how you end up with Haemonculi and Wracks, but I think it's a bit too supernatural for the basic Dark Eldar.

...

I'd tone down the evil of the Dark Eldar (been overdone since they were introduced in my opinion) and have that as only one part of their culture. I think the Eldar work better as piratical raiders than solemn high elves is all.

A couple of things here.
1. It does sound like what you really want is corsairs. Corsairs are awesome, and they're free to be as evil or not-evil as you like. Corsairs are rad. More corsair lore would be welcome.
2. The soul thirst is kind of the defining *thing* about drukhari. I mean this with no disrespect: if you dislike evil pain vampires and just really want fey pirates, maybe you're not actually all that fond of dark eldar? It seems like you kind of want to overhaul some pretty major pillars of what makes drukhari drukhari in order to turn them into edgy fey pirates. Which is cool, but again, more of a corsair thing.
3. Framing the topic around one being "better" or "the default" is unhelpful, I think. They're both cool in their own way. It's just that the drukhari tend to be hard to root for given that they're, y'know, sadistic slavers who typically prefer unfair fights. As a result, they lend themselves more easily to antagonist roles, which you seem to think is bad/invalid/doesn't count.

So you're basically saying you want to see more drukhari representation, but you don't like the representation they currently have, and also you want to change who they are and how they behave.

I, for one, think there should be more ork representation. But like, do they have to be green? After all, the ogre archetype in folklore comes in lots of colors, so non-green ork options would help lean into that. And do they have to be football hooligans whose collective beliefs impact the world around them? Seems a little over the top. What if they were just like, an honorable warrior race instead? </sarcasm>

Hmmm, not sure where I'm giving the vibe that I want them to not be antagonists or that that is bad or invalid? I didn't bring in the protagonist/antagonist framing because I don't really think of things that way.

I'll take your point that I probably prefer Corsairs and think of Dark Eldar as representing Corsairs better than the other stuff the studio has done with the concept over the years.

As to your sarcasm, point taken, but actually as an Ork player for over 25 years I absolutely hate the "ork tech only works because they believe in it" crap that's been meme-ified into being actual background. It's absolutely over the top and I ignore it personally. Ork tech works because Mekboys are geniuses, Tech Priests don't understand it because they are pretty limited cultists with an incorrect understanding of technology.

Also, I wouldn't mind different colours of Orks! Algae comes in lots of different colours in nature.

But I'm okay with Drukhari as they are, tbf. I'd prefer it if the pain vampire thing was toned down, but it's not a deal breaker for me or anything. I'm fine with them being like that, overall.

Been playing Rogue Trader video game (short rant: that thing is buggy as hell! PATCH IT OWLCAT!!) and while the Drukhari MC comes off as annoying and villainous, it's good for a bad guy. I did NOT opt for him as a companion and killed him off ASAP.
..That said, while I like Yrliet's abilites, it seems I'm doing everything but bending over backwards for her and she still gives me 'tude! And THAT is annoying. I mean, I've taken her to several missions knowing there will be craftworld interaction and only once or twice has that changed options. I did NOT try and romance her, as I'm trying out the Cassia option and that's it's own path of thorns. Whilst some features are bad/ need changing, I feel they got the background and "soul" of 40k correct.
I guess it's true that Eldar look "pretty" to humans, but as GW likes to remind us the Space Elves see us hitting on them as we would Koko making the "finger in hole in-out" gesture and winking at us.. But it also runs into that "Eldar thoughts are so different from humans" and yet it's a human making all the lore.
Kinda somewhat relevant to topic: I remember in a Gotrek & Felix book that Felix was talking to Teclis and the Elf Mage was like "Hmm- fascinating, I'll have to think that over.."
Then Felix was like: "So, what do you think?"
"... I'm an Elf, I've lived over a hundred of your human lives, when I say I'll think about it- I mean, it'll take me years!" (basically)

 Da Boss wrote:
Hellebore: Nah, that's not what I'm about (though I can see why it might look like that). I'm a Xenos guy through and through.

I'd tone down the evil of the Dark Eldar (been overdone since they were introduced in my opinion) and have that as only one part of their culture. I think the Eldar work better as piratical raiders than solemn high elves is all.

This comes from my taste in fantasy elf archetypes much more than any desire to make the Imperium look good.

I don't agree with you that only Tau, Imperials and Eldar are protagonist factions. I think all factions can be protagonist factions, though Oldcrons and Tyranids do require a certain mindset to appreciate that as a way to play them.

If anything, the Super-Friends Team Up aspect of Eldar and Imperials is one of the things that annoys me about Craftworlders. They always end up allying with the Imperials in campaigns and I prefer my Xenos implacably opposed to the Imperium, if not to humanity. After all, it expressly wants obliterate them all. The Gathering Storm plot is a good example of the god awful writing that happens when you have the Imperials and Eldar teaming up.

Ok, I see where you're coming from, but it seems that you're trying to change them to make them more protagonist friendly - that is, make people feel less uncomfortable actually immersing themselves in fiction about them and their motivations. There's a reason that stories from murderers and *apists perspectives are few and far between; sold purely on shock value, or are reduced in effect to make them palatable (Dexter only killing people that 'deserve' it for example).

Tau, imperial and craftworlds as protagonists are because they have relatable, logical and relatively similar perspectives to the reader (with the imperium ironically being least 'modern society' of the three). They are reader surrogates. They actually have civilian life and some people that have never gone near a warzone. This relatability is what makes them protagonist fodder. While you can write a story from the perspective of the other factions in the setting, (just as you can read from the perspective of Patrick Bateman in American Psycho), it doesn't mean they fit that same cultural position that other protagonists do - even anti heroes have relatability to the reader. We generally don't encourage people to relate to the First Person perspective of a *apist.

Every other faction is irrationally evil, maniacal, destructive etc in a way that the reader is not. Orks don't have down time from violence (ork downtime is murdering each other, rather than anyone else). Chaos is a cult of different flavoured anarchic nihilism. Even newcrons are omnicidal, they just have more personality behind their desire to wipe out all other species than the oldcrons.


So if you have to fundamentally alter a faction to make them more protagonist friendly, then I think you're answer is there. The dark eldar are all the sadistic, psychopathic tropes of serial killers, *apists etc with a classic GW grimdark justification excuse for their actions (it's the same with the imperium's kill all aliens because they will kill us ideology - contrive a circumstance to justify the unjustifiable). 'What if' Patrick Bateman and Johnny 23 (the *apist from Con Air) were justified in their actions, what if they needed to, to live?

I have one issue with the way Dark Eldars have been portrayed and this is the main reason why I prefer the Craftworld Eldars.

If I were to imagine how Eldars worshipers of Slaanesh would behave, look like and do, they would be exactly, perfectly and completely identical to Dark Eldars and this to me is a problem. There should be a significant between the Dark Eldars and worshipers of Slaanesh.

It could be made rather easily too. You just need to lean on the fact Dark Eldar must feed on people's fear, pain and death to survive achieve some sort of immortality thanks to it. In such a setting, kabalites are basically pirates and raiders armies whose purpose is to secure captives in large quantity (and protect access to the Webway). Wytches could use a little bit of Khaine worshiping elements to their gladiatorial games and are basically erotic/violent entertainment in addition to basically "feeding" the general population by terrorising and humiliating captured enemy soldiers thanks to their superior skills of arms before killing them and Homonculus covens are there to resurrect dead high ranking kabalites and feed the elder one's who require something more powerful and personalised than what the Wytches can provide. It also serves as a pathways for Dark Eldars who have actually gained a genuine and rather obsessive love for the idea of being psychic vampires, but that makes them both feared and disgusted by most Dark Eldars. It would also imply that many Dark Eldars are basically civilians who pay taxes in exchange for protection to kabales and otherwise have normal lives, cultivating in artifical gardens, making art and weapons and once in while they bring themselves and the children to the local arena o see a Wyches kill people in a fancy and acrobatic fashion or a homonculus playing on someone's tendons in the local lantern garden garden (you know, normal until it's very much not).

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Craftworld novels that spring to mind:
* The Path of the Eldar trilogy.

While the third Path novel was technically a Craftworld novel in that the protagonist started and ended the novel as a member of a craftworld, everything in between that was effectively a Corsair novel.

Eumerin wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Craftworld novels that spring to mind:
* The Path of the Eldar trilogy.

While the third Path novel was technically a Craftworld novel in that the protagonist started and ended the novel as a member of a craftworld, everything in between that was effectively a Corsair novel.

Fair point. So subtract half a book from the eldar list which makes the disparity between eldar and dark eldar rep even smaller! Other than the Goto books, eldar didn't really get much BL representation at all until the Path series. And by that point, dark eldar had been around for quite a while and were pretty well embraced by the fanbase. So craftworlders have less of a "head start" than some people might htink.

epronovost wrote:I have one issue with the way Dark Eldars have been portrayed and this is the main reason why I prefer the Craftworld Eldars.

If I were to imagine how Eldars worshipers of Slaanesh would behave, look like and do, they would be exactly, perfectly and completely identical to Dark Eldars and this to me is a problem. There should be a significant between the Dark Eldars and worshipers of Slaanesh.

I think what you're missing here is that Slaanesh was born of the type of behavior that drukhari exhibit. Slaanesh is literally the manifestation of the drukhari lifestyle. The drukhari just can't be bothered to change their lifestyle just because a warp entity cribbing their style now exists, and Slaanesh's existence forces them to double-down on the hedonistic sadism thus discouraging their culture from changing.

If goths gave birth to the god of gothiness, you'd expect the the goth god to wear a lot of black and like spooky stuff. And if some people started worshipping the god of gothiness, you'd expect them to also wear black and be into spooky stuff. But the OG goths aren't necessarily going to change their aesthetics/interests in response.

It could be made rather easily too. You just need to lean on the fact Dark Eldar must feed on people's fear, pain and death to survive achieve some sort of immortality thanks to it. In such a setting, kabalites are basically pirates and raiders armies whose purpose is to secure captives in large quantity (and protect access to the Webway). Wytches could use a little bit of Khaine worshiping elements to their gladiatorial games and are basically erotic/violent entertainment in addition to basically "feeding" the general population by terrorising and humiliating captured enemy soldiers thanks to their superior skills of arms before killing them and Homonculus covens are there to resurrect dead high ranking kabalites and feed the elder one's who require something more powerful and personalised than what the Wytches can provide. It also serves as a pathways for Dark Eldars who have actually gained a genuine and rather obsessive love for the idea of being psychic vampires, but that makes them both feared and disgusted by most Dark Eldars.

That mostly sounds like Commorragh as it's presented in the lore so far. Sans wyches worshipping Khaine because god worship is considered in bad taste because reasons.

It would also imply that many Dark Eldars are basically civilians who pay taxes in exchange for protection to kabales and otherwise have normal lives, cultivating in artifical gardens, making art and weapons and once in while they bring themselves and the children to the local arena o see a Wyches kill people in a fancy and acrobatic fashion or a homonculus playing on someone's tendons in the local lantern garden garden (you know, normal until it's very much not).

"Civillian" drukhari are a thing. There are drukhari workshops and merchants and what have you, and they're implied to provide some sort of tribute/taxes to whomever happens to control the turf they're located on. Trueborn children are a rarity and a status symbol of the rich/powerful, but I imagine they *are* taken to the arena or what have you by their parents (or their parents' henchmen). But Commorragh is not a kind or safe place, and every single drukhari, by definition, has to sip on suffering in order to avoid (psychic) health problems. Going to enjoy a meal at Olive Garden means bringing enough security to ensure you aren't murdered on the way there, and the meal isn't complete without someone suffering horribly so you can stave off Slaanesh.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

"Civillian" drukhari are a thing. There are drukhari workshops and merchants and what have you, and they're implied to provide some sort of tribute/taxes to whomever happens to control the turf they're located on. Trueborn children are a rarity and a status symbol of the rich/powerful, but I imagine they *are* taken to the arena or what have you by their parents (or their parents' henchmen). But Commorragh is not a kind or safe place, and every single drukhari, by definition, has to sip on suffering in order to avoid (psychic) health problems. Going to enjoy a meal at Olive Garden means bringing enough security to ensure you aren't murdered on the way there, and the meal isn't complete without someone suffering horribly so you can stave off Slaanesh.

Commorragh is basically the stereotype of cities where organized gangs and crime have taken over. The big established syndicates extort protection money (or goods/services) from ordinary people, while the up and coming new gangs (the Hellions) exist in the shadows. In the Dark Eldar case, the Kabals also provide the source of psychic sustenance as they control access to the arenas and also bring in the supplies of new prisoners to keep the arenas running. In return for goods and services, the ordinary Dark Eldar probably receives admission tickets to the arena so they don't wither away.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Craftworlders think nothing of causing a world to fall because, at some point in the future, the consequences will save some Eldar lives. And that’s not a “one in, one out” deal. It could be billions of deaths to preserve a single Eldar life.

I've seen this sort of thing claimed about the Eldar quite often...but where is it actually from? Not sure why it gets referred to as it's just a common ordinary thing for them to do.

I think that example is from the Forges of Mars trilogy where a Farseer tries to destroy an entire Explorator Fleet because (among wider tragedy) if she doesn't her child will never be born.

It is a common representation of Eldar, although I can't think of a generic reference off the top off my head.

A good specific example is Ghazghkull though. Ulthran lead a mission to kill a rival warboss that would have risen to power instead and gone on to attack the Eldar instead of Armageddon. Eldrad forsaw Armageddon and thought that was acceptable casualties.

I really don't mind the Farseers being chessmasters who think a billion human lives is worth one Eldar life. I think it's fine. And Dark Eldar should be like that too, but with extra sneering and less solemn it-had-to-be-done energy. Like Dark Eldar should be pressing the Kill A Billion Humans button with glee, because screw those smelly monkeys.

One way I'd describe DE society is sort of like ancient Roman culture, or a feudo-Mafia type of society.

In Roman culture, you had the patron-client relationship. Essentially a person of lesser status would attach himself to a person of higher status. The exchange was mutual: the person of higher status (patron) would promise to provide protection, work opportunities, legal counsel, & relief during times of hardship. While the person of lower status would provide political support, service in the patron's house, protection (if the patron achieved public office & had the privilege of having lictors, he would often reward his clients with these positions). In Europe, this patron-client relationship would evolve into what we would recognize as European Feudalism, where a lord would grant land & support to his vassal, in exchange for military support, counsel, etc.

The Mafia would mirror this patron-client relationship in many ways.

More topical, now that the background info is taken care of, I can see the "civilian" DE attaching themselves to more powerful lordlings, all up the line to become associated with one of the Kabals of Cormorragh, with the status of each individual or unit not being strictly hierarchical, but a web of relationships (i.e. one civilian merchant could be directly attached to the Kabal leadership, & owe nothing to those under the leadership, FREX). In exchange for the support of these lower castes, their patrons promise protection, support, economic aid, & to stave off Slaanesh, private or public torture, suffering, etc. So, while these Eldar might not have as much freedom (& in Cormorragh, my guess would be that freedom is actually a death sentence to anyone that has anything more than their person...).

Social navigation in this sort of society might be a series of landmines you'd have to navigate through. That merchant selling lizard-on-a-stick you just treated with contempt. Later, after business hours, he goes to his Don or Capo, described the DE in question, & now he has his kiosk kicked over. Of course, the status of the client is important: if an Archon rolls in & kicks over the vendor's stand, it is unlikely that his patron is going to take overt action. But it is a relationship of mutual support, in the end.

Damon.

The Kabal would have to at least show their promises of protection are not totally empty, as if it became widely believed that their promises of support and protection were worthless then people would leave and they would get no new recruits. Even though Dark Eldar society as a whole is rife with backstabbing and internecine conflict, there has to be some degree of fulfilling your word and obligations otherwise society as a whole collapses. Similarly, the haemonculi covens are basically in the insurance business. Though we get stories of when they take revenge on their clients for perceived slights, they have to on the whole fulfil their promise of resurrecting Kabal clients otherwise again their whole business model collapses. Nobody would pay the high prices demanded for resurrection if they thought there was no chance of the coven actually fulfilling its promise.

 Haighus wrote:
It is a common representation of Eldar, although I can't think of a generic reference off the top off my head.

A good specific example is Ghazghkull though. Ulthran lead a mission to kill a rival warboss that would have risen to power instead and gone on to attack the Eldar instead of Armageddon. Eldrad forsaw Armageddon and thought that was acceptable casualties.

It’s from 3rd Ed. Definitely in the designer’s commentary when the codex was released (where Gav Thorpe went on a rant about having to drive home that Eldar aren’t ‘the good guys’), I can’t remember if it was in the codex itself as well.

1999 Eldar codex has the following extract in the fluff around Eldrad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The original fluff in the Compilation doesn’t go into that aspect of Farseeing.

 Da Boss wrote:
Which I think they technically are, but you'd never know it by their treatment in the background!

Isn't this just a consequence of how the Dark Eldar operate? The Dark Eldar live somewhere where none of the other factions can practically reach them and as such don't have to worry about threats to their existence and have pretty much zero interest in expanding their territory. They pretty much only voyage into realspace to raid poorly-defended agriworlds or rogue traders and get new playthings to keep them alive. There's not much interesting to say about "the Dark Eldar attacked an agriworld and made off with three hundred virgins with little resistance" which is how most of their "battles" go.

By that token, Craftworlders should be even more invisible. They'd be avoiding conflict with everyone wherever possible, and using their farseeing to just not be where trouble is. And there are far fewer of them, and they're self sufficient with no need to raid.

But that's not really what we see.