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For those who don't know, vox beads are small, personal radios that usually take the form of a small earbud. They are short-ranged but entirely adequate for tasks like intra-squad or even platoon communications. They can also be relayed through more powerful vox sets like those found in a Chimera. It appears they can also be built into the helmet instead of being a discret item.

Imperial Guard troopers are all supposed to be equipped with a vox link as standard (as per the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer), although in practice this is not universal and many Guard regiments never get the equipment or training.

How big a deal is this? Commissar Cain is certainly very complimentary of vox beads, and considers them one of the primary reasons for the typical difference in quality between Imperial Guard units (which usually have vox links) and PDF units (which usually don't, although this varies and some do, like on Perlia). Is this plausible?

Certainly real militaries see value in this. The British Army has issued short-ranged personal radios to every member of a section for over 20 years now. Everything I can find on this suggests they are a huge improvement to the reliability and flexibility of British sections in combat. However, search engines being terrible these days, I can find very little to quantify that or even evidence it was tested in exercises. It is ontuitive but the magnitude of the benefit is unclear to me. The fact that some militaries think it is worth the investment and weight penalty speaks for itself to some extent, but the British Army is an odd example because it has huge manpower shortages and needs to maximise individual effectiveness.

What are people's thoughts on this? Especially interested in hearing from veterans who have used these systems (if public domain of course!).

Mostly, I think it's a narrative choice to give certain regiment a certain design aspect to them. The Tanith 1st are suppose to be a little more tactical and covert than your average regiment. With discreet units coordinating over a large area. Personal communication devices would be a must-have. See also Catachans and Elysian drop troops. So looking at a regiments historical ties I think would be the best perspective.

Regiments that depend on mass waves and tight formations may not have as much need for personal communication. Especially if they're depending on conscripts. Don't ask questions. Someone will tell you where to go. I'm think the DKOK or the Mordian Iron Guard.

 Haighus wrote:
Certainly real militaries see value in this. The British Army has issued short-ranged personal radios to every member of a section for over 20 years now. Everything I can find on this suggests they are a huge improvement to the reliability and flexibility of British sections in combat. However, search engines being terrible these days, I can find very little to quantify that or even evidence it was tested in exercises. It is ontuitive but the magnitude of the benefit is unclear to me. The fact that some militaries think it is worth the investment and weight penalty speaks for itself to some extent, but the British Army is an odd example because it has huge manpower shortages and needs to maximise individual effectiveness.

Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections? That's a good way (provided you're in range to be detected, so pretty much anywhere along contact line) to invite an arrival of 152 mm artillery shell, Grad salvo, or more recently, FAB-500 glide bomb or FPV drone, as evidenced in last 2-3 years. To the point wire communications, runners, or deliberately weak encrypted/burst radios (to make them difficult to pinpoint) are making a comeback.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Mostly, I think it's a narrative choice to give certain regiment a certain design aspect to them. The Tanith 1st are suppose to be a little more tactical and covert than your average regiment. With discreet units coordinating over a large area. Personal communication devices would be a must-have. See also Catachans and Elysian drop troops. So looking at a regiments historical ties I think would be the best perspective.

Regiments that depend on mass waves and tight formations may not have as much need for personal communication. Especially if they're depending on conscripts. Don't ask questions. Someone will tell you where to go. I'm think the DKOK or the Mordian Iron Guard.

Which only illustrates how poorly GW writers keep up with actual militaries. Blaring EM emissions is a pretty poor way to be stealthy. In fact, such an unit should actively avoid doing so, relying on plans and time coordination (at least till the actual fight starts and enemy knows you're there anyway). Historical regiments might be not the best way to look at it as dedicated EW warfare troops is post WW2 Soviet invention and thankfully for most of their existence they were not involved in a major peer conflict.

As for the conscript troops, this is massive misunderstanding, too. Conscripts require more command elements, not less. Officers, sergeants, in fact mass conscript armies of Warsaw Pact had NCO ranks both above and below sergeant because you can't rely on conscripts doing what you want, if you want them to execute your orders someone has to make sure of it. They show less initiative, so higher command has to deliver orders down the ranks and this means more, not less communication. Otherwise the effectiveness of the army degrades massively.

Now, this can be done pre-battle on paper (in which case you rely on all the officers and NCOs to actually adapt to field conditions and change the plan on the fly, like Soviets, but that requires the leaders to be trained professionals with quality training if not actual combat experience) but if it's true conscript army raised from the ground up, with green officers, communications are a must (which is incidentally why USSR invested in EW troops so heavily, they would be terrifyingly effective force multiplier against armies that planned to announce their disposition and deployment as a matter of course, and recent events show it's effective even against best tech 2020s have to offer).

Also dunno if I would call Kriegers 'conscripts', they train so heavily, never expect to go back to civilian life, and use live ammo exercises/indoctrination/zeal they are pretty much professional soldier caste that is easily equal of veteran standing army even before they fight for the first time. Think Roman legions if they were also Masada fanatics, not peasant/urban levy.

 Irbis wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Certainly real militaries see value in this. The British Army has issued short-ranged personal radios to every member of a section for over 20 years now. Everything I can find on this suggests they are a huge improvement to the reliability and flexibility of British sections in combat. However, search engines being terrible these days, I can find very little to quantify that or even evidence it was tested in exercises. It is ontuitive but the magnitude of the benefit is unclear to me. The fact that some militaries think it is worth the investment and weight penalty speaks for itself to some extent, but the British Army is an odd example because it has huge manpower shortages and needs to maximise individual effectiveness.

Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections? That's a good way (provided you're in range to be detected, so pretty much anywhere along contact line) to invite an arrival of 152 mm artillery shell, Grad salvo, or more recently, FAB-500 glide bomb or FPV drone, as evidenced in last 2-3 years. To the point wire communications, runners, or deliberately weak encrypted/burst radios (to make them difficult to pinpoint) are making a comeback.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

Is this supposition and extrapolation from Ukraine, or based on anything more substantive? Especially given the huge proliferation of drones in Ukraine, which all require EM signals to function and are being used at a section level.

If you have any sources I'd be interested to read them.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Mostly, I think it's a narrative choice to give certain regiment a certain design aspect to them. The Tanith 1st are suppose to be a little more tactical and covert than your average regiment. With discreet units coordinating over a large area. Personal communication devices would be a must-have. See also Catachans and Elysian drop troops. So looking at a regiments historical ties I think would be the best perspective.

Regiments that depend on mass waves and tight formations may not have as much need for personal communication. Especially if they're depending on conscripts. Don't ask questions. Someone will tell you where to go. I'm think the DKOK or the Mordian Iron Guard.

Which only illustrates how poorly GW writers keep up with actual militaries. Blaring EM emissions is a pretty poor way to be stealthy. In fact, such an unit should actively avoid doing so, relying on plans and time coordination (at least till the actual fight starts and enemy knows you're there anyway). Historical regiments might be not the best way to look at it as dedicated EW warfare troops is post WW2 Soviet invention and thankfully for most of their existence they were not involved in a major peer conflict.

As for the conscript troops, this is massive misunderstanding, too. Conscripts require more command elements, not less. Officers, sergeants, in fact mass conscript armies of Warsaw Pact had NCO ranks both above and below sergeant because you can't rely on conscripts doing what you want, if you want them to execute your orders someone has to make sure of it. They show less initiative, so higher command has to deliver orders down the ranks and this means more, not less communication. Otherwise the effectiveness of the army degrades massively.

Now, this can be done pre-battle on paper (in which case you rely on all the officers and NCOs to actually adapt to field conditions and change the plan on the fly, like Soviets, but that requires the leaders to be trained professionals with quality training if not actual combat experience) but if it's true conscript army raised from the ground up, with green officers, communications are a must (which is incidentally why USSR invested in EW troops so heavily, they would be terrifyingly effective force multiplier against armies that planned to announce their disposition and deployment as a matter of course, and recent events show it's effective even against best tech 2020s have to offer).

Also dunno if I would call Kriegers 'conscripts', they train so heavily, never expect to go back to civilian life, and use live ammo exercises/indoctrination/zeal they are pretty much professional soldier caste that is easily equal of veteran standing army even before they fight for the first time. Think Roman legions if they were also Masada fanatics, not peasant/urban levy.

I think Mr Nobody is referring to units assembled in ranks, which can get away with a smaller officer and NCO complement (like in the Napoleonic era). However even regiments like Mordians and Praetorians don't fight in ranks all the time and have similar control elements to more dispersed forces. One of the regiments known to use vox beads is a Valhallan mechanised regiment.

Kriegers are all conscripted in the sense they have no choice but to become soldiers, but they are definitely highly trained.

I think every real world army has ranks above and below sergeant, and so do Imperial Guard regiments. The rules only mention sergeants because it doesn't really matter whether a trooper is a corporal or a sergeant is actually a sergeant major for game purposes.

@Irbis - your points are valid for modern open radio comms, but I think for Guard comm-beads its reasonable to assume that some kind of space magic is going on to mask the signals being used.

 Irbis wrote:
Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections?

Most 40k armies aren't though and electronic warfare isn't exactly commonplace (except where it's like actual lightning guns but that's slightly different). Hacking into comms is considered rare enough that it's a shock when the Alpha Legion does it.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

Why? Aeldari aren't going to hack into a comms net they have psychic abilities to predict futures and read minds coupled with a staggering arrogance to boot. Tyranids don't need to care if they can intercept radio signals. Chaos forces with a modicum of discipline might go for it but at the level where they're hacking enemy comms it's going to be pretty rare. Necrons maybe but again it's simpler to use the infinite legions to kind of just crush any opposition.
T'au would be the only force where actual electronic warfare might be a consideration because they actually try to fight like a modern combined arms army rather than "lads on tour in the milky way"

 Gert wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections?

Most 40k armies aren't though and electronic warfare isn't exactly commonplace (except where it's like actual lightning guns but that's slightly different). Hacking into comms is considered rare enough that it's a shock when the Alpha Legion does it.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

Why? Aeldari aren't going to hack into a comms net they have psychic abilities to predict futures and read minds coupled with a staggering arrogance to boot. Tyranids don't need to care if they can intercept radio signals. Chaos forces with a modicum of discipline might go for it but at the level where they're hacking enemy comms it's going to be pretty rare. Necrons maybe but again it's simpler to use the infinite legions to kind of just crush any opposition.
T'au would be the only force where actual electronic warfare might be a consideration because they actually try to fight like a modern combined arms army rather than "lads on tour in the milky way"

There is a difference between hacking and EW though. Someone might not be able to decrypt the comms but still have the EW capability to track the transmission and triangulate where you are, which I think is what Irbis is getting at. Even Nids and Eldar may be all over that and Necrons are probably very good at it.

There’s plenty of examples in the novels of people ‘going dark’ for exactly this reason, all the way from the squad level to the starship level. Though where it mattered I think you’d do exactly that - have the broadcast switched off when you’re trying to sneak into position, then have them on in situations where the benefit of comms outweighs the downsides. I’d expect many units to have quite detailed TTPs on that.

On the mitigation side though comm beads also seem to be quite low power and short ranged (at least from the Cain stories), which may be deliberate to reduce their detectability.

Additionally there’s ways to mitigate EW detectability even with modern tech, like narrow directional beams or encryption that can make the signal barely detectable above background noise without the right key. As Flinty says, once you account for space magic this is going to be an even stronger factor.

So I think Irbis is probably overselling the vulnerabilities.

Forces are ften able to detect radio. September 2001 white dwarf says that this is one of the most important qualities of marine Librarians.

Messages and communications can be relayed using the Librarian's considerable psychic powers, and these types of communications have the advantage over more physical forms, such as comm-links, of being completely undetectable to all but the most powerful of psykers.

I

I'm pretty sure electronic warfare is a thing in 40k, it just isn't something that normally affects the tabletop and is pretty dry to cover in stories.

The 4th edition Cities of Death expansion had jammers as part of the Combat Engineers strategem to block booby traps, and the Siege Masters rule in 3rd edition (which Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists had) represented similar jammers for minefields.

Apocalypse 1st edition also included a Jammers strategem (with great rules implementation! The opposing team was blocked from communicating pre-game ) and the disruptor beacon strategem.

There are various references to digital viruses targeting comms too.

Edit: I'm pretty sure there are other examples that I've encountered which I can't immediately recall, this list is not exhaustive.

Scrap code and the likes, too, the Kill Team booklet for huh... that Scion Kill Team that came out a looong time ago had a small bit about a Scion actually being able to bypass Scrap code, it wasn't much but it was interesting to me a non AdMech character could do that.

From a realistic standpoint it’s hugely important. Communication is a form of logistical support, and logistics is what wins wars.

If I can clearly and easily communicate with my squad or another squad without alerting my enemy, that’s a big tactical bonus.

If you’re curious how important they are, get a 5 man team of friends, go airsofting with only rental equipment.
Then go again a week or two later with some cheap FRS radios that have roughly .5-1mile range in dense woods or towns.

Worth noting that whilst all Guard Units have some kind of Vox Link, vox beads aren’t exactly the standard.

Some will have a vox set instead, as per the old Cadian set, where a single squad member is the vox operator, linking the squad up to the rest of the regiment.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Worth noting that whilst all Guard Units have some kind of Vox Link, vox beads aren’t exactly the standard.

Some will have a vox set instead, as per the old Cadian set, where a single squad member is the vox operator, linking the squad up to the rest of the regiment.

Vox sets are intended to link the squad long-range. Vox beads are really just a better version of shouting (ish, their range is in the region of 500m to 1km), but they link together in a network. So a commander can give orders through their vox link, relayed through their command squad vox set to a distant squad vox set, who then disperses it to the squad vox links. It isn't either-or and the systems are complementary.

Cadians are equipped with vox beads/links as standard and it is supposed to be the standard for all guardsmen based on the Departmento Munitorum-issued Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. Obviously it isn't as vital as a lasweapon etc. so many regiments never receive a full complement, if any.

 Haighus wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections? That's a good way (provided you're in range to be detected, so pretty much anywhere along contact line) to invite an arrival of 152 mm artillery shell, Grad salvo, or more recently, FAB-500 glide bomb or FPV drone, as evidenced in last 2-3 years. To the point wire communications, runners, or deliberately weak encrypted/burst radios (to make them difficult to pinpoint) are making a comeback.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

Is this supposition and extrapolation from Ukraine, or based on anything more substantive? Especially given the huge proliferation of drones in Ukraine, which all require EM signals to function and are being used at a section level.

If you have any sources I'd be interested to read them.

In a word, yes. The 'other spectrums' are featuring more and more in combat, and EM is just one. Heat is a massive one, with cans on the end of the rifle, camo that is considering heat signatures, and all the old CW decoy work being updated. Wouldn't surprise me is Perun had something about it up currently. Task and Purpose for the more red top approach if you like videos will touch on it, otherwise have a gander at the RUSI pages, Wavell, and just internet search! This is one of the top results in the search i just did. https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-electronic-warfare

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Except this only works when you're doing colonial war on barely armed natives who can't offer meaningful resistance. When you're facing a proper army with EW sections? That's a good way (provided you're in range to be detected, so pretty much anywhere along contact line) to invite an arrival of 152 mm artillery shell, Grad salvo, or more recently, FAB-500 glide bomb or FPV drone, as evidenced in last 2-3 years. To the point wire communications, runners, or deliberately weak encrypted/burst radios (to make them difficult to pinpoint) are making a comeback.

So, yeah, if you're fighting orks, rebels, or PDF, vox beads might be an asset, but even these forces (if they have someone smarter in command) can give you a nasty surprise. Anyone higher tech? Forget it, that's a good way to send your officers to premature retirement right quick.

Is this supposition and extrapolation from Ukraine, or based on anything more substantive? Especially given the huge proliferation of drones in Ukraine, which all require EM signals to function and are being used at a section level.

If you have any sources I'd be interested to read them.

In a word, yes. The 'other spectrums' are featuring more and more in combat, and EM is just one. Heat is a massive one, with cans on the end of the rifle, camo that is considering heat signatures, and all the old CW decoy work being updated. Wouldn't surprise me is Perun had something about it up currently. Task and Purpose for the more red top approach if you like videos will touch on it, otherwise have a gander at the RUSI pages, Wavell, and just internet search! This is one of the top results in the search i just did. https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-electronic-warfare

I actually read that article before Heat is usually EM still, it generally uses infrared emissions.
But my point was more that EM warfare ramping up doesn't preclude EM from being used if it is beneficial enough to warrant the risks, as in drone warfare. Plus, Ukraine is using backdoored Russian gear and (increasingly) NATO hand-me-downs. It was using mobile phones! I think it is noticeable that Russian EW capability had to adapt to NATO gear in the first place, and that isn't even the full NATO capability as an integrated system being used in NATO doctrine.

For reference, Irbis claimed that personal radios was flat-out a bad idea due to EW triangulation, which would also apply to drones used at a section level.

Perun is a good call though, will have a poke around.

 Haighus wrote:


For reference, Irbis claimed that personal radios was flat-out a bad idea due to EW triangulation, which would also apply to drones used at a section level.

Perun is a good call though, will have a poke around.

If you want to watch a bunch of the Ukraine guys talking about drones in particular there are interviews floating around. Russian EW does both shut down a whole segment of the spectrum in areas where they themselves aren't active and use it for selecting targets in areas where they haven't jammed everything. Radio emissions are used to select areas to bombard, but counterbattery fire isn't straight forward. Use the same spot repeatedly and it will sit on a target list, but there are plenty of emissions all over the battlespace, its hard to know which to shoot (and you can imagine some of the stuff happening there) and you can't fire in all directions all the time. Generally crews know once a drone has been spotted (it completed mission, got engaged, jammed, etc.) they have to go dark and scarper quickly.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Haighus wrote:


For reference, Irbis claimed that personal radios was flat-out a bad idea due to EW triangulation, which would also apply to drones used at a section level.

Perun is a good call though, will have a poke around.

If you want to watch a bunch of the Ukraine guys talking about drones in particular there are interviews floating around. Russian EW does both shut down a whole segment of the spectrum in areas where they themselves aren't active and use it for selecting targets in areas where they haven't jammed everything. Radio emissions are used to select areas to bombard, but counterbattery fire isn't straight forward. Use the same spot repeatedly and it will sit on a target list, but there are plenty of emissions all over the battlespace, its hard to know which to shoot (and you can imagine some of the stuff happening there) and you can't fire in all directions all the time. Generally crews know once a drone has been spotted (it completed mission, got engaged, jammed, etc.) they have to go dark and scarper quickly.

Right, and I wasn't disputing that. But the latter line is what I am referring to- EM emitting technologies are still used, even if they have to be used with caution and specific techniques. It is a battle of evolving tactics, not a flat denial of Ukrainian EM usage by Russian EW forces. If it was (as Irbis was suggesting), using any kind of frontline drone would be an immediate death sentence as it's operator(s) are immediately triangulated and shelled, which is clearly not the case or Ukraine wouldn't still be using any. A drone radio controller is not dramatically different to a personal radio.

The question (coming back on topic) is how big of a force multiplier the EM emitting tech is. Ukrainian forces think the drones they are using are worth the risk with their current techniques. Are personal radios worth it to NATO troops? I can't find a lot of info on this beyond the radios being "well regarded" by British troops but it seems likely given their continued use and continued upgrades to minimise interception. If the British Army is still paying for them after 25 years despite budget cuts they probably consider them very impactful.

For more on the subject check out RUSI