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I've been thinking recently that a fun way to add more minis/units to the game would be if GW could release one or two units from a xenos faction, that could be allies for other factions rather than a faction of their own. Kinda like regiments of renown for fantasy back in the day.
It would seem like a lot of work to release fully fleshed out factions, but a unit or two here and there definately seems doable and could add a lot of variety. I kinda thought Tau would go this way but they haven't had as many xenos allies as I thought they would get. Heck back when I was still active in 40k I never thought I'd see a custodes or mechanichus army get released, I thought new aliens would have been added before those esoteric factions.
I dunno, maybe I'm just alone in this, what do you all think?

Yes, absolutely.

But, I wonder if they might be suited to the smaller scale games, such as Kill Team?

At that scale of conflict, you can have quite exotic, unique squads without having to worry about how they’d interact across an entire force.

Mercs as allies is of course an option, but how do you point them when they could be used to cover otherwise quite deliberate deficiencies? For instance, a dedicated combat nutter unit would benefit a Tau force more than an Ork army, and a super accurate shooty unit would benefit an Ork force more than a Tau.

There absolutely is room for such a force though, but would be a sod to get Just Right.

This is something I'd really like. It would be nice way to add flavour in the setting and experiment with new ideas.

In general, I'm sad that the ally rules in the current edition are basically non existent, apart couple of very specific combos. I liked creating various fluffy soup armies, as it allowed me to collect just a few units from a faction and still use them in game.

You could easily use this to flesh out the rest if the Tau Empire.

Or have a Rogue Trader who can take Sanctioned Xenos in his army.

Yes. Blackstone Fortress introduced a few (that are hiding in Legends - Unaligned), and as MDG said you could introduce more as Kill Teams.

I mean, I'd say we already have incomplete xeno factions.

 vipoid wrote:
I mean, I'd say we already have incomplete xeno factions.

They could save a lot of time putting them all in one codex... then it will be complete.

But what to call it?

Foul Xenos? Nah... too formal.

Cursed Aliens? Nope, I'll think of something...

I got it! The Imperium's Big Book of Targets!

So a few things here. First, let's acknowledge that we already sort of have this in some limited capacity, but we mostly keep them with the faction that makes the most sense. Kroot mercs exist, but they're rolled in with the tau rules. Eldar corsairs exist, but they're a craftworld unit. Sslyth exist, but they're a drukhari unit.

If mercs are operating in large enough numbers to make up a full army on the tabletop, then at that point we're talking about a full faction rather than an "incomplete" faction like you're describing.

As for small "incomplete" factions with one or two boxes to their name... You end up creating some major design challenges for yourself by letting them team up with anyone. As Mad Doc points out, a given mercenary unit might be way more useful when allied to army X than it is when splashed into army Y, so that immediately makes it tricky to figure out how to price them.

With similar units that we have right now (like the "unaligned" Blackstone Fortress units), GW seems to err on the side of caution and basically make them all pretty suboptimal. Which, obviously people are going to be less excited about spending money on mercs knowing that they're intentionally designed to be bad for their points.

But if you make them *good* for your points, you're risking the same situation we've seen with imperial allies in the past. Remember the days of every single imperial army having an assassin and/or knight splashed in? You'd risk ending up back there again.

I *do* want to see minor factions and species continue to be fleshed out, but universal allies probably isn't the way to go. Kill Teams that can be taken as a unit in established factions are probably a better way to go. Give me a Sslyth kill team that has stats as its own 40k unit. Give them the Vespid treatment, basically.

Arguably the "minor" faction category is where Deathwatch, GK and Custodes should lie.

But yeah, deciding to only support "full" factions is a limit that 40k really shouldn't have Make more fun and interesting xenos stuff, chaos stuff (renegade guard and beastmen), and throw in Arbites while we're at it.

This is what Tau could have been if they hadn't gone down the mecha weeb route instead.

Would have been great if they gave a general auxiliaries stats sheet with opportunity to kitbash at leisure.

From a setting perspective? Absolutely. I mean, they've spent a bunch of time turning a third of the game into the same army with different colour schemes (arguably half if you include the spikey ones)....

from a financial perspective, maybe?


There's three areas they can tie these to in the game already, Votann, Dark Eldar, Tau.

The Dark Eldar have plenty of the 'nastier' merc groups working for them already, like the sslyth which are pretty cool. The tau have all their afiliates who i assume would also hire other alien mercs (unlike the imperium they're allowed to work with aliens) and the votann will work for or hire people to deliver what they need.

That's a way to make them work, you have them as add ons to existing factions.


Personally I would love to see Corsairs and Ynnari as codex supplements for the eldar codex and you could do the same thing for the merc groups as well.

Are the Votann Xenos? They came from Ancient Terra.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Are the Votann Xenos? They came from Ancient Terra.

No but they hire themselves out to and also hire xenos. In a game where everyone is omnicidal, trying to put mercs in is a challenging prospect. You need to find the parts where it's believeable that it would happen. The imperium, eldar, orks don't really hire mercenaries, especially not alien mercenaries (the eldar hire other eldar mercenaries, imperium might pay a rogue trader to fight for them, orks will sometimes work as mercs but won't hire them because where's the fun in outsourcing the punching?).

That leaves Votann, Tau and Dark Eldar as the factions in the game that we've seen will be willing to hire alien mercs.

Fluff wise it's an infinite universe so... if you REALLY want to go there you could have Blackstone, Jokaero, Slyth etc etc.

Production wise, last I heard (here, sometime this year I think) production was at full capacity, so what would you give up to get said shiny new toys?

 Olthannon wrote:
This is what Tau could have been if they hadn't gone down the mecha weeb route instead.

Would have been great if they gave a general auxiliaries stats sheet with opportunity to kitbash at leisure.

On this? I’m split.

Tau are interesting and unique enough to be a faction in their own right. And they do have their auxiliary forces.

But to have a strong central theme and obvious strategies, then add a buttload of extra units is bloody hard to balance. And I could happily point to every incarnation of Tau codex as evidence, where the Kroot and Vespid just don’t really work as well as adding another Tau unit.

Of course, poor implementation does not a poor concept make. But it does rather illustrate such a force is at best, a right sod to compile.

I think the best way to do Tau is to split them into two faction armies just like GW did with Imperials and more recently with Tyranids

If you'd tried to put Genestealer Cults into Tyranids they'd have been tripping over models already present with key roles and you'd never have had room for that much variety without rules wise spoiling one side or the other.


Tau should do the same. A Core TAU Codex that is built around the core faction and mechasuits with a few Xenos allies. Basically the army you have right now today.

Tau Auxiliaries Codex. A core of Kroot and then built around that lots of different xenos factions with different styles in key roles.

This way the Auxiliaries can have all the fancy tools for the battlefield with different xenos groups built around them; almost akin to how Eldar use Aspect Warrior groups; only much more so.



I think its the best way to introduce sub-faction xenos into the game whilst still letting them play on the 40K battlefields.


The problem with introducing them as boxed sets in Killteam is that GW has established for a long while now that Killteam models enter the main 40K Game. Heck a massive focus of Killteam is being a growth game for newbies. They get their 1 box of models and can play Killteam; then as they add model after model they steadily increase to the point where they can both play very varied Killteam games and start playing 40K games.



Blackstone Fortress was a great way to introduce very minor factions and unique heroes and the Warhammer Quest line could certainly be used for that again as its very much more a side game where you can HOPE you might see some move over ot the main game; but its not a focus (and even when they have moved over, as AoS has shown, some end up being pulled from sale eventually - though we've no idea if they'll return again)




Personally I'd love to see more minor factions and models.I think from a creative point of view whilst 40K gets fantastic models; it feels like there's a creative void within it where creative staff don't quite have the same freedom that they do in say AoS and you can feel that come through a bit in the models here and there. I think allowing them to have an avenue to add more factions in a small way gives them a creative outlet to play with the setting. I think GW could also do things like Tau Auxiliaries to give main 40K a chance too.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Arguably the "minor" faction category is where Deathwatch, GK and Custodes should lie.

But yeah, deciding to only support "full" factions is a limit that 40k really shouldn't have Make more fun and interesting xenos stuff, chaos stuff (renegade guard and beastmen), and throw in Arbites while we're at it.

I agree with you there, I feel like a lot of the imperium's "factions" or "armies" could have been reduced or kept as 1-2 units that act as support/ally units for IG/SM.

From some other people's points about good combat units being better for tau than other armies, thus being hard to get the points right, I mean... I understand that availability of a unit with certain armies can be useful, but aren't units balanced points wise? LIke... Isn't one combat unit from one army, with effectively the same ability/equipment/whatnot cost the same points as a different unit in a different army? I wouldn't understand why, for example, two units that are effectively the same in ability would cost different points because they're in different armies that have different total options available?

Other than maybe having a "rogue trader sanctioned" army, I would think merk/alien units would be better left as support/ally units for other armies. I guess I'd rather just see cool stuff added and possible. Like.. units that don't fit the theme of their host army, ie, combat heavy or shooting heavy, don't bother me much personally.

I think there would be room for a "Fringe Worlds" faction made of an uneasy, shifting alliance of minor races (Sslyths, Kroots, etc.) and outcasts from major races (Imperium tech-heretics, xenos collaborators, unsanctioned psykers, atheists and assorted dissidents, down-on-their-luck Eldar corsairs, Drukhari exiles, individualistic citizens of the T'au empire who never really fit in, etc.). United not so much by a common cause or values as by a shared struggle to survive in a galaxy that has no place for them, because every other sentient faction is too dogmatic or xenophobic.

Of course, in true grimdark fashion, they would not be a melting pot of tolerance and understanding, but rather a Mos Eisley kind of deal. Pirates, scavengers and the likes. Still, it would be a breath of fresh air, because so much of Warhammer lore is about religious fanaticism, strict hierarchy, and allegiance to powerful leaders. This could be the true "chaotic" faction, unlike Chaos... which, despite its name, does try to impose its own form of order upon the galaxy via conquest, worship, and the eradication of free will.

I think the splitting of the Imperium in two by the Cicatrix Maledictum, and the ensuing weakening of Terra's authority, provided the perfect opportunity for the emergence of new factions that include humans. Sadly, as far as I'm aware, GW has not made good use of that opportunity so far.

 Hellebore wrote:
The Dark Eldar have plenty of the 'nastier' merc groups working for them already, like the sslyth which are pretty cool.

Drukhari are arguably the faction that most tolerates coexistence with other factions in the galaxy, despite their racial supremacist beliefs. Sure, they may enslave other races (and one another), but I don't think they have grand designs to rule the galaxy, impose their ideals upon it, and destroy anyone who does not conform to those ideals. In Commorragh proper, they can afford to treat "lesser races" with contempt, but in extended realspace campaigns, they likely have to get a lot more pragmatic.

Unfortunately, the Court of the Archon (which includes the Sslyth) seems almost like an afterthought nowadays. I would not be surprised if the next Drukhari codex eliminated it entirely.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:


I think the splitting of the Imperium in two by the Cicatrix Maledictum, and the ensuing weakening of Terra's authority, provided the perfect opportunity for the emergence of new factions that include humans. Sadly, as far as I'm aware, GW has not made good use of that opportunity so far.


.

I was expecting GW to do some massive story split. Perhaps even so far as to have Marines on one side of the split and IG on the other or even Primaris on one side and regular marines on the other.

But yes the idea that the Imperium suddenly loses control over half its territory and thus allows minor Xenos factions to rise up was very much the direction it felt like they were heading in. Enough to cause disruption in the setting to give other factions a chance to actually join the grand wars; but not enough to destroy the Imperium or anything it stands for. Plus an idea they can 100% go back on by simply advancing the story and having the Imperium find a new trade path or taking back the chokepoint. Damage done and now there's a few more "Tau like" factions big enough to be a problem kicking around; but the Imperium itself survives and the status quo is maintained.

Necrons kinda started as a micro-faction, just the lord, warriors, immortals, destroyers, and scarabs, and a few WD articles to introduce their rules/army lists. Didn't know how good things were back then.

BanjoJohn wrote:
Necrons kinda started as a micro-faction, just the lord, warriors, immortals, destroyers, and scarabs, and a few WD articles to introduce their rules/army lists. Didn't know how good things were back then.

Necrons had a tiny force for ages. Back then you could kind of get away with it a little more as model counts in 40K were smaller and even armies like Tyranids relied a lot on "jack of all trades" models with different weapon setups for different battlefield roles. It was the heyday when the Carnifex was all the heavy-weapon options from close combat to artillery depending what upgrades and weapons you went with.

That said today I think it can hurt a faction to be too small unless the models are very big like Knights or Gargants. Too small a range and you end up like the Fyreslayers in AoS where there's just 2 troop kits. Even with drip-fed new leader models its still a very basic setup and it saps some of the fun when all you can take is "more of the same" rather than by choice.

You kind of need a decent threshold of core models for an army to work today and be interesting enough to get attention. Especially since editions are just 3 years old. If all you've got for 3 years is 1 leader; 1 troop; 1 heavy and a vehicle then that's kind of really boring to build with. There aren't many choices in that and most of them are going to be "spam unit x".

Heck look at genestealer cults; they became more popular (my impression) when they got their second wave and went from a diverse army that was mostly "ImperialGuard with extra arms sometimes" to an actual force that stood on its own where the IG elements are more of an optional addon if you want to take some.




GW could slow-grow an army, but it likely wouldn't sell all that well until it really got going. Even bolting it into another existing army doesn't seem to quite work - look at Yinnari which is 1 boxed set of 3 models and then the rest of it is existing armies. Most who want craftworld or dark eldar just go for the pure armies

Basically we're talking about the concept of Xenos rogue traders. Definitely could work for most things though a bit of an odd fit with Tyranids.

I do think I find myself more intrigued by the idea of "rogue trader" 40k rules, that is, with a neutral GM managing the battle/scenario. I like the idea of random aliens/things happening in the middle of a battle.

Maybe its just this train of thought that makes me think more alien factions that have fewer models would be useful, like.. you have IG vs Orks, and then in the middle of the battle a small faction of xenos pop out.

But I also kinda like the idea of smaller battles sometimes too. I guess "kill team" is what people do these days for that? But I would say 1-2 characters and 2-3 squads for your army size, maybe no greater than 1k points.

The main issue is the same kind of issue that impacts all mercs. If they're not very good they're kind of pointless and if they are very good they dominate the game by showing up in every faction. You have to think about what kind of aliens Ork players would want in their army that aren't just more Orks. Tau, sure, but that's something that they're increasingly theming the Tau around. 40K just isn't a setting with a lot of need for unofficial military forces after all. Everyone is quite happy to commit their official forces to ceaseless attrocity.

One way to do it is as Old World did whcih is to realise that mercenary forces would just be another army of their own. Dogs of War style is much easier to balance into the game because mechanically they are just a regular army.

You then only have to worry about the story side of things really.


Mercenaries only become an issue when you try to have the joining up to every army whilst also being their own army. We've seen that time and again when GW has tried to do large scale alliances between factions en-mass in 40K and it just breaks the game.

I think the only way you can really do it well in a game system is to basically have a system where each faction has the same unit types with the same stats. Perhaps only having a few faction wide flavour rules.
So basically a spearman is a spearman with the same stats no matter the army. Then you can easily ally two armies together visually speaking and storywise because the spearmen from faction A and faction B are identical mechanically speaking.

Alliances between faction leads to balancing at the unit level it created a much better and diverse game with much more varied and interesting armies rather than the current mono builds which wasn't a broken game

What didn't work was a faction purist trying to compete vs soup and expecting to be balanced because factions were not balanced that way

Personally I would love a book of imperium allies chaos allies and anyone mercenaries.

The issue with xenos only allies is that if other factions can't take them why not release them for that faction most of the value to gw is in multiple armies buying the same model and ork/necron/eldar/nids don't really have cross faction allies

U02dah4 wrote:
Alliances between faction leads to balancing at the unit level it created a much better and diverse game with much more varied and interesting armies rather than the current mono builds which wasn't a broken game

What didn't work was a faction purist trying to compete vs soup and expecting to be balanced because factions were not balanced that way

I'd argue that's a text book example of it breaking the game/game balance. The idea that factions should have to bring significant allies from other armies to be viable on the tabletop destroys all the marketing for basically the last 30-40 years of mono-army builds being dominant. It's not that you can't make a game like that; but you can't just take 40K and make it a game like that. That might have worked in 2nd edition when most armies were a LOT smaller in model diversity so you could have had way more "gaps" to fill with allies; but in today's market the armies are big and diverse. They have a lot of internal options and there's no reason they shouldn't be able to compete as a mono-build.


If you create a situation where one build approach has a distinctly greater advantage over others then you've locked out all those other build options. That's typically bad balancing in a game of this kind. Sure those who like to win games often enjoy it and will argue strongly for it because it makes it simple "Get X and win". No variation; no debate just get X. However for absolutely everyone else its a negative.

LunarSol wrote:The main issue is the same kind of issue that impacts all mercs. If they're not very good they're kind of pointless and if they are very good they dominate the game by showing up in every faction.

Yeah. This is the main concern. I don't want to see Freebootaz and Kroot in every other army the way we used to see assassins or knights in every imperial army back in the day.

Overread wrote:One way to do it is as Old World did whcih is to realise that mercenary forces would just be another army of their own. Dogs of War style is much easier to balance into the game because mechanically they are just a regular army.

This is what I was trying to get at in my previous post. If you're hiring enough mercs to, say, secure a star port, then you're talking about fielding a full tabletop army of that faction. At which point they're just a normal faction whose fluff may or may not include being mercs for someone else.

If you're only hiring enough mercs for like, one squad, then you're basically talking about a sslyth or anhrathe situation.

And between those two extremes, you have some wiggle room for something like a kroot situation where you're really just talking about a collection of units from a normal faction, but you give them some detachment rules to put the spotlight on them rather than treating them as a side dish. Heck, the kroot crusade rules literally reflect merc work. With rules for how shady your client is and everything!

Looking back at 2nd ed, the eldar i think had the most individual unit type models produced compared to everyone else because each aspect needed a unique design.


As to the problem with mercs, imo the answer is in how you control army design, rather than unit design.


ie, if you choose to take a merc force, then you must spend between 30 and 50% of your army points on them, or something like that.

Or the only way to buy mercs is as a small detachement of X points which itself internally is balanced rather than individual units. So you can buy an 800pt merc force, but you don't get a choice of what units are in it.


Basically, you balance it at larger detachment scales rather than unit scales.

Sure. Just make the points limit for such allies incredibly stingy, something like 1 unit per 1000 points or the like.