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Back when they were called Start Collecting! boxes, there was always a centerpiece model such as a vehicle or monster. It made sense, because you want to wow new players, make them relish the opportunity to build and paint something bigger, and ease them into both fielding and fighting these sorts of units. They'll soon find out what they most like to play, and develop their army accordingly. But now it seems most combat patrol boxes have nothing but infantry and other squad units.

Even the new one for the Astra Militarum, an army much better known for its vehicles than its speed or close combat ability, lacks a single Russ, Chimera or Sentinel... yet has no less than 10 Rough Riders out of 25 models. The focus on elites like RR and Kasrkin means that even with only squad units, the model count of the AM patrol is only 3 more than the Dark Angels one.

It's not the only combat patrol that is less than representative of its faction's actual play style or typical in-story composition. The Sororitas one has 10 arco-flagellants out of 26 models, even though arcos are very much a specialist unit that isn't even thematically part of the holy orders. The Death Guard patrol has the Death Guard itself outnumbered 3 to 1 by Poxwalkers.

Were they just too focused on making combat patrols balanced? I don't think that should have been the main goal here.

.

In my day, Battleforce boxes came with jungle trees or gothic ruins [/old]

 Lord Damocles wrote:
In my day, Battleforce boxes came with jungle trees or gothic ruins [/old]

In my day, Ork Dreadnoughts were made of cardboard.

In all seriousness. The Grey Knights have a Dreadknight, that's a huge centerpiece...

But I understand. I think Comat Patrol should have a signature model in every box.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Back when they were called Start Collecting! boxes, there was always a centerpiece model such as a vehicle or monster. It made sense, because you want to wow new players, make them relish the opportunity to build and paint something bigger, and ease them into both fielding and fighting these sorts of units. They'll soon find out what they most like to play, and develop their army accordingly. But now it seems most combat patrol boxes have nothing but infantry and other squad units.

Even the new one for the Astra Militarum, an army much better known for its vehicles than its speed or close combat ability, lacks a single Russ, Chimera or Sentinel... yet has no less than 10 Rough Riders out of 25 models. The focus on elites like RR and Kasrkin means that even with only squad units, the model count of the AM patrol is only 3 more than the Dark Angels one.

It's not the only combat patrol that is less than representative of its faction's actual play style or typical in-story composition. The Sororitas one has 10 arco-flagellants out of 26 models, even though arcos are very much a specialist unit that isn't even thematically part of the holy orders. The Death Guard patrol has the Death Guard itself outnumbered 3 to 1 by Poxwalkers.

Were they just too focused on making combat patrols balanced? I don't think that should have been the main goal here.

.

I have 2 theories :

1) The original idea has been perverted by executives into packaging hard-to-sell kits.
2) They are on the fence on giving up on combat patrol next edition, and focusing on Boarding Actions as the entry level into 40k, and many Combat patrols reflect that.

I think the new combat patrols are very much intended to be more designed to play against one another rather than discount starter products. The removal of centerpiece models mostly seems to be a result of those models just not playing well with the generic infantry that populates the majority of the box.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Back when they were called Start Collecting! boxes, there was always a centerpiece model such as a vehicle or monster. It made sense, because you want to wow new players, make them relish the opportunity to build and paint something bigger, and ease them into both fielding and fighting these sorts of units. They'll soon find out what they most like to play, and develop their army accordingly. But now it seems most combat patrol boxes have nothing but infantry and other squad units.

Yeah, it's finally a good decision by GW to get people into the game and not just buy shiny toys. A properly balanced starter system that gives you a good basis for a proper army is a way better choice than some of the dross that got put out for Start Collecting! boxes.

Were they just too focused on making combat patrols balanced? I don't think that should have been the main goal here.

Having been on the receiving end of Start Collecting! for both 40k and AoS, it was not a fair or fun place to be. The balance was absolutely manic and because it wasn't a self-contained system the rules you got from an SC box were just there in the game.
Oh yeah everyone is playing 500pts except the Skitarii get all their upgrades for free. Oh, you want to do just SC boxes against each other? Sorry, not all the factions get them so if you don't have one of those factions then you don't get super bonus rules. Oh, you have a Warchanta as your Hero? Allow me to deploy Arkhan the Black.

Combat Patrol is a far more balanced and new-player-friendly system, even if some of the boxes are a bit goofy.

Start Collecting! was immensely popular and it had some truly insane discounts. But those discounts were not even and they were not good for the state of a club. For AoS you jumped from Iron Jaws having a solid core of units to build from to Fyreslayers where the webstore literally forced you into buying SC boxes because you paid for one model and got the rest of the box entirely free.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the new combat patrols are very much intended to be more designed to play against one another rather than discount starter products. The removal of centerpiece models mostly seems to be a result of those models just not playing well with the generic infantry that populates the majority of the box.

This is the correct answer.

Notice that they are not called Start Collecting any more but Combat Patrol. They are designed to be played against each other using a sperate rules system designed for beginners to learn the game. That is why they are focusing on small groups of infantry and removing the big models.

Personally I think that they should do both; a combat patrol box to play with out of the box and a start collecting box with bigger models at a discount designed to get players into a faction rather than be used straight from a a box.

If they are intended for Combat Patrol, then they should tailor the box a little more.

For some armies, they have either/or units.

My buddy, who I drug into the hobby against his will, was upset when he bought the Grey Knights Combat Patrol and found out you can't play with all the models included in the box.

I can't say I blame him.

Almost like we're mid edition and Combat Patrols are all being redone and rebalanced.

I'm not interested in the game modes based around the boxes (though I think it's a cool idea, and a good one!).

I just want models I think are cool at a price I find acceptable.

When SC came out, I found that I felt the value was there for most of the kits. There were some kits I felt had the wrong focus (the Tyranid kit, the Eldar kit) but most had a great selection and with a SC and a few more boxes you had a pretty nice small force. I picked up loads of them and made them the core of a small army for each faction.

With Combat Patrol, I've only gotten the Dark Eldar one, and only after a LOT of deliberation, and the Mechanicus one, which I was wincing when buying but did include all the stuff I wanted so it was alright.

I just find the higher price point much harder to justify, even if in the long run it ends up costing the same or less than what I did before. Probably dumb and irrational, but Combat Patrol doesn't "work" on me the way SC did. Maybe SC was TOO good, and ended up cannibalizing sales on other kits. That was certainly going to be the case for some of them like the Lizardman kit that came with the Carnasaur. But I'm just not tempted by them, especially when I see the small model counts and high prices.

Not sure on the relative value Vs RRP, but the Start Collecting boxes were relatively cheap in absolute terms. With the old 25% off FLGS it was a bit over £40. Which is now the price GW charge for a box of 5 infantry.

There has been a bit of inflation since then. But it's just clearly a less consequential purchase than spending £80 on a combat patrol.

Start Collecting and Battleforces served a somewhat different purpose to a Combat Patrol. And that difference matters.

Start Collecting and Battleforces were a way to kick start a collection but rarely, if ever, offered a usable army. And so while the discount was always welcome, they weren’t ready to go out the box.

A Combat Patrol is. And, at least theoretically, a group of friends need only have a Combat Patrol each to experience 40K - there’s no need to buy more.

I’m not concluding “therefore Combat Patrol am grate is are perfekt”. But they are a different, and in some sense superior, product.

Whether someone already established in the hobby would get value from them, I’ll leave to that next person

It's also important to remember that there are currently 36 available Combat Patrols for 40k, not just the ones in the boxes.

So if you don't like the specific one from the box, there are other options for most of the armies.

 Da Boss wrote:
I just find the higher price point much harder to justify, even if in the long run it ends up costing the same or less than what I did before. Probably dumb and irrational, but Combat Patrol doesn't "work" on me the way SC did. Maybe SC was TOO good, and ended up cannibalizing sales on other kits. That was certainly going to be the case for some of them like the Lizardman kit that came with the Carnasaur.

Ha ha, I remember this one, I think it was a factor in me choosing to collect Lizardmen when I got into AoS. The box was priced the exact same as the Carnosaur alone, making it utterly baffling that they would still bother to sell the Carnosaur model on its own. The typical advice from the community to new Lizardman players was just: "For a start, buy two Start Collecting! boxes." Which I suppose means that the box served its purpose.

Mind, I also seem to remember that at least one of the AoS Start Collecting! boxes included a unique character, which is far from ideal. You want a box that is useful to buy more than once.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Start Collecting and Battleforces were a way to kick start a collection but rarely, if ever, offered a usable army. And so while the discount was always welcome, they weren’t ready to go out the box.

A Combat Patrol is. And, at least theoretically, a group of friends need only have a Combat Patrol each to experience 40K - there’s no need to buy more.

Balancing combat patrols isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I do think they should be as representative as possible of their respective armies.

Rough riders are great, and in some ways they're iconic (despite, or because of, the very long time they spent without new models), but they're not typical of the Imperial Guard, and they should not take the place of a Russ or a couple of Sentinels in their faction's combat patrol. They're auxiliaries, intended to mitigate one of their faction's weaknesses rather than become one of its strengths. Same goes with the Sororitas combat patrol. It should not have 10 arco-flagellants, but it should have some melta.

It's as if the T'au patrol focused on Kroot and Vespid units. (At least the actual T'au combat patrol is fire warriors, a tank and a battlesuit, so GW did it right.)

.

 Gert wrote:
Almost like we're mid edition and Combat Patrols are all being redone and rebalanced.

yeah, but then you have the explain the DA abomination where they have an HQ that can't join any of the units in the box. Or the even worse space marine one.

I think it is total BS that combat patrol units are chosen for any sort of balance reasons. Possible balancing is up to the people who need to write the rules for the contents.

Karol wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Almost like we're mid edition and Combat Patrols are all being redone and rebalanced.

Yeah, but then you have the explain the DA abomination where they have an HQ that can't join any of the units in the box. Or the even worse space marine one.

The explanation is quite easy. Compat patrol plays quite different than tournament pack 40k. At 500 points, chunky characters can easily run around solo and don't need to join anyone.

Personally the start collecting boxes didn’t make much sense.
Sure it’s a start at collecting a faction but in an age with a pretty strict FOC, their contents made little sense.

For example the guard box iirc was an infantry squad, a HWS, a commissar, and a Russ. That’s not a very efficient way to build an army for the money compared to the 9th Ed CP box which was a command squad, 2 infantry squads, 2 big artillery models, and small vehicle. For the money it was a great way to start or expand an army. Now the 10th CP box for guard is indeed horrible.

For its era, a better start collecting box would have been command squad, heavy weapons squad, infantry squads, chimera.
At that point you only need 2 infantry and 1 command squad to have the bare minimum requirements for the FOC, if not necessarily many points.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I feel start collecting boxes were predatory, while CPs are generally much less so.


As for new players, historically and maybe even still today, I think getting new players was almost completely a current player introducing the game/hobby to someone new rather than a new person just walking by and seeing a box full of cool models on the shelf. Now and in the foreseeable future new people will likely be attracted by games and other media so cool big models are even less likely to be an actual selling point for new people.

I misunderstood from the title- to me there's a difference between a vehicle and a centerpiece model (though some few vehicles would qualify as centerpiece models I guess).

I would love to see a standard/ basic vehicle/ walker or bike kit in every combat patrol.

Centerpiece models, which tend to be named characters or giant monsters, can stay separate, because not everyone is going to want to play with them.

Sorry to get hung up on semantics.

 PenitentJake wrote:
I misunderstood from the title- to me there's a difference between a vehicle and a centerpiece model (though some few vehicles would qualify as centerpiece models I guess).

I would love to see a standard/ basic vehicle/ walker or bike kit in every combat patrol.

Centerpiece models, which tend to be named characters or giant monsters, can stay separate, because not everyone is going to want to play with them.

Sorry to get hung up on semantics.

I think center piece is relative.

In the start collecting box for guard the Russ definitely stood out and was a center piece. For a full1000 or 2000 points? No.

By the same token a Brutalis in a BA army is a center piece because it’s simply big enough for an army without a dedicated centerpiece model.