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As in the title. Basically, when did Space Marines change in lore from being 'mere' good quality Imperial troops (like Sardaukar) to the shonen style characters of today who are apparently capable of dismantling everyone singlehandedly.

I'm of course aware that 1st Edition Space Marines were apparently prison convicts, and 2nd Edition changed them to gene-enhanced well-equipped heavy infantry (presumably volunteers), but when did all this change to the 'superhero' motif of 'now'?

When they began writing black library proper, pulp power fantasy bolter porn. They gain protagonist powers and it just bled backwards

 Hellebore wrote:
When they began writing black library proper, pulp power fantasy bolter porn. They gain protagonist powers and it just bled backwards

I'm not quite sure, I've read a bunch of pre 2010 works, (mainly republications of short stories from Inferno or Citadel Journel), for example; Ian Watson's Space Marine, Carrington's Eye of Terror, Words of Blood, Maelstrom, Let the Galaxy burn, etc... and the Marines depicted in those .... weren't exactly god-like. They seemed.... like any old generic sci-fi elite unit (with various cultural cues and traditions).

But oddly, the HH books came out in 2006 and were very..... shonen esque

Did the 30k BL wing not communicate with the 40k BL wing at all or smthing

Imagining Calgar being on his knees at the point of defeat with his opponent monologueing, Calgar getting a flashback about the power of friendship and then slowly getting up while his eyes start glowing and the theme song starts playing does take the sting out of the swarmlord's and avatar's defeat a bit.

Space marines went from "rabble" to gene-enhanced warriors already during the lifetime of 1st edition. But not sure when they became "Movie Marines" - it musta been at some point when I had already stopped hobbying..

It's certainly been the latter description for a while now. Space Marines have been called 'Angels of Death' since I'm came into the hobby around 4th edition. Some of the grunge has been polished off since then and there's certainly been a bit of a power creep when it comes to the astartes. But I'd say the space marines have been superhuman for a majority of the games these days.

Same - I seriously got into 40K in the 3rd edition era and Marines were pretty superhuman then.


I think that over time both the depiction of them has gone up in superhuman displays; but at the same time I think some people have become over-sensitive to it. Hence the birth of terms like "Bolter Porn".

I can see why too - as a big Xenos fan there's honestly far less from BL for any faction compared to the Imperials and Marines. In games Marines/Imperials are often the title focused race; in artwork etc... Basically there's a lot of deliberate fixation on the Marines and Imperials from their perspective.

So they do a lot of winning; a lot of killing other stuff whilst being epic; a lot of plot armouring and so forth.



Some of it is also just the lore being fleshed out more in a direction not everyone agrees with. So we go from very short clipped statments that can be interpreted a bunch of ways to more specific ones. So those who interpreted earlier snippets as more "in-faction propaganda" and so forth basically end up on the wrong side of interpretations that get more fleshed out where its not propaganda, its really how superhuman the Marines are in the setting.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
I'm of course aware that 1st Edition Space Marines were apparently prison convicts

i wouldn't mind seeing this idea be partially brought back, with a penal legion but with Space Marines.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
When they began writing black library proper, pulp power fantasy bolter porn. They gain protagonist powers and it just bled backwards

I'm not quite sure, I've read a bunch of pre 2010 works, (mainly republications of short stories from Inferno or Citadel Journel), for example; Ian Watson's Space Marine, Carrington's Eye of Terror, Words of Blood, Maelstrom, Let the Galaxy burn, etc... and the Marines depicted in those .... weren't exactly god-like. They seemed.... like any old generic sci-fi elite unit (with various cultural cues and traditions).

But oddly, the HH books came out in 2006 and were very..... shonen esque

Did the 30k BL wing not communicate with the 40k BL wing at all or smthing

Bl started with inferno but it wasn't really much of anything until it began publishing novels. Bl proper as I call it was when they began pumping out novels at pace. Ian Watson is a sci-fi writer not a genre fiction pulp writer and his stuff is a decade before bl. Most of the early books were just inferno anthologies.

Iirc space wolf was the first ever bl marine protagonist book (published 1999). Uriel ventris was iirc the next space marine protagonist book series (nightbringer 2002). From there it exploded in marine led books which then led into HH where it ramped up even more (Horus rising 2006).

Check out this page for the sheer number and timeline of marine fiction in comparison to bl fiction as a whole.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Novels

The Space Marines in Ian Watson's Space Marine seemed really impressive and powerful but in a very reasonable way because they were competent and well written. They didn't pull off any superheroics.

I'd personally blame Dan Abnett. Somewhere is the Gaunt's Ghosts series I remember Marine and Chaos Marine characters being introduced and the way they were described made them sound 3+ metres tall, as tough as a tank and strong enough to throw tanks at each other.

Oktoglokk wrote:
The Space Marines in Ian Watson's Space Marine seemed really impressive and powerful but in a very reasonable way because they were competent and well written. They didn't pull off any superheroics.

I'd personally blame Dan Abnett. Somewhere is the Gaunt's Ghosts series I remember Marine and Chaos Marine characters being introduced and the way they were described made them sound 3+ metres tall, as tough as a tank and strong enough to throw tanks at each other.

You can also blame Gav Thorpe. He did the same thing in one of the Last Chancers novels.

Oktoglokk wrote:
The Space Marines in Ian Watson's Space Marine seemed really impressive and powerful but in a very reasonable way because they were competent and well written. They didn't pull off any superheroics.

I'd personally blame Dan Abnett. Somewhere is the Gaunt's Ghosts series I remember Marine and Chaos Marine characters being introduced and the way they were described made them sound 3+ metres tall, as tough as a tank and strong enough to throw tanks at each other.

The same Gaunt's Ghost series that had the Ghosts counter ambush and easily kill 'Zerkers, or outright amubush those five Marines in the swamp or that one Ghost outsmarting 3 Marines which would've resulted in all four dying if it wasn't a training exercise?

I am behind in my GG's reading, but the novels seemed to mark them as dangerous but so super that you might as well not bother fighting if they show up.

Not quite sure when they went from Super human to demigods myself, though I think you can be one with being the other. Helsreach has a good balance of Marines being more than just human, but they're also shown as having limits, despite it all.

I’m away pet sitting so I can’t currently check my RT books, or indeed my 2nd Ed ones.

But, for this specific topic, once I am home and can check? I’ll be looking for the earliest publication of the organs that go into a Marine. As that strikes me as a solid benchmark, as it’s from those we really get a sense of just how post-human they are.

Age of Darkness of course provides the most notable, and possibly first, description of Transhuman Dread.

But certainly during 2nd Ed there were WD filler texts describing Marines in combat. One that sticks in mind is an assault on a bunker, and a Marine backhanding a Guardsman’s face out the back of the poor sod’s helmet. Which, whilst I can’t name the issue, is clearly a description that’s stuck with me for decades.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
You can also blame Gav Thorpe. He did the same thing in one of the Last Chancers novels.

For sure. I can vividly remember Gav Thorpe's blog post about the virtues of telling vs showing so I'll gladly blame him for anything.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The same Gaunt's Ghost series that had the Ghosts counter ambush and easily kill 'Zerkers, or outright amubush those five Marines in the swamp or that one Ghost outsmarting 3 Marines which would've resulted in all four dying if it wasn't a training exercise?

Yes. That counter ambush might have been the first place Marines were standing head and shoulders above a Chimera. Possibly twice as tall. Maybe playing with Chimeras like matchbox cars. It was 20-30 years ago.
I also vaguely remember Gaunt killing a Chaos Marine - maybe even a terminator - with his chainsword.

If Dan Abnett isn't the originator of Marines becaming overpowered, he might be where excessive plot armour was imported into 40K fiction.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll be looking for the earliest publication of the organs that go into a Marine. As that strikes me as a solid benchmark, as it’s from those we really get a sense of just how post-human they are.

Age of Darkness of course provides the most notable, and possibly first, description of Transhuman Dread.

But certainly during 2nd Ed there were WD filler texts describing Marines in combat. One that sticks in mind is an assault on a bunker, and a Marine backhanding a Guardsman’s face out the back of the poor sod’s helmet. Which, whilst I can’t name the issue, is clearly a description that’s stuck with me for decades.

I would guess it was somewhere late in Rogue Trader that the extra organs are first described.

But, even late in 2nd edition, like the 1996 Angels of Death codex, Space Marines are described as tough and remarkable and highly skilled, but not excessively so.
The most remarkable Space Marine exploit I remember from that era was a story in the Space Wolves codex where Ragnar Blackmane kills a Carnifex that was holding him aloft in its claws, by shoving a krak grenade in its mouth before it could eat him/cut him to pieces.

Think I might do a background thread on such “lost” snippets. Because I remember that one, and it was specifically referencing the Carnifex’s “bear hug” attack.

Inferno! is also something peeps ought to review, as that was really the birthplace of modern Black Library and its overall style.

Oktoglokk wrote:
Yes. That counter ambush might have been the first place Marines were standing head and shoulders above a Chimera. Possibly twice as tall. Maybe playing with Chimeras like matchbox cars. It was 20-30 years ago.
I also vaguely remember Gaunt killing a Chaos Marine - maybe even a terminator - with his chainsword.

If Dan Abnett isn't the originator of Marines becaming overpowered, he might be where excessive plot armour was imported into 40K fiction.

Nothing is said about the CSM being twice as tall as Chimeras, nor are there even any vehicles present as the fight takes place in a swamp tree village.
There are no Terminators and Gaunt does kill an Astartes but it is with what would be considered a Paragon Blade (basically a souped up Power Sword).
What's unrealistic about the fight is that locals armed with poison blow darts kill an Astartes and that Gaunt isn't turned to pulp when he gets in a one-on-one fight with one.

Marine organs were first introduced in WD #98 (Chapter Approved - The Origin Of The Legiones Astartes)

 Gert wrote:

Oktoglokk wrote:
Yes. That counter ambush might have been the first place Marines were standing head and shoulders above a Chimera. Possibly twice as tall. Maybe playing with Chimeras like matchbox cars. It was 20-30 years ago.
I also vaguely remember Gaunt killing a Chaos Marine - maybe even a terminator - with his chainsword.

If Dan Abnett isn't the originator of Marines becaming overpowered, he might be where excessive plot armour was imported into 40K fiction.

Nothing is said about the CSM being twice as tall as Chimeras, nor are there even any vehicles present as the fight takes place in a swamp tree village.
There are no Terminators and Gaunt does kill an Astartes but it is with what would be considered a Paragon Blade (basically a souped up Power Sword).
What's unrealistic about the fight is that locals armed with poison blow darts kill an Astartes and that Gaunt isn't turned to pulp when he gets in a one-on-one fight with one.

I think the Khorne Berserker example is from the start of Ghostmaker, where there's a bunch of World Eaters attacking an armoured column, some of them bare handed. Don't have the book to hand so I can't speak to whether they're described as towering over a chimera.

It didn't bother me too much at the time because a S5 Berserker on the charge COULD break through the rear armour on a Chimera if he rolled a 6!

It's been a while, but I *feel* like the chaos marines in the Untill fight were terminators. They were certainly described as big stompy armored fellows, even more than you'd expect.

Either way, 'locals with poison blow darts' is selling the partisans a bit short. They were a whole town of guerilla fighters armed with...I think they were magnetic crossbows or something like that, with poison strong enough to kill the marines' accompanying techno-bureaucrat with a glancing hit. The one marine kill the partisans score was because, in the finest of Warhammer traditions, he wasn't wearing a helmet, and they had to turn his head into a pincushion to do it.

Just remember, Marines can toss ridiculously heavy Tyranids like water balloons.

From the C.S. Goto masterpiece Warrior Brood:

Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk.

The whole Demi-God thing is more of an in universe imperial cult thing, isn’t it? I don’t think my perception of what a marine can and can’t do has changed since 2nd edition. I’m certain back then they were immune to all toxins and could fight in any environment and their power armour was practically indestructible. Especially terminator armour.

The idea a that a squad of space marines can for what a whole regiment of guardsmen can do, in half the time has always been a key description of Space Marines.

The the whole descending angles sent by the god emperor to wield holy wrath and people seeing them as Demi Gods is in world hyperbole that’s been ramped up. In the last 10 years, maybe.

Because they aren’t actually Demi gods. They don’t have a fraction of the power of the gods and there are beings in the 40K universe that can tear astartes to shreds. Some astartes probably don’t even survive their first mission.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think the Khorne Berserker example is from the start of Ghostmaker, where there's a bunch of World Eaters attacking an armoured column, some of them bare handed. Don't have the book to hand so I can't speak to whether they're described as towering over a chimera.

That sounds like what I was remembering. However they were described, it made me recoil in disbelief at how ridiculously massive Space Marines were described as.

Edit: I found it. It's worse than I remember.

Some excerpts:

"It wore red, and stood in the trees to the right of the track, in plain sight, unmoving, watching his column of Basilisks as they passed along the trackway. It was the lack of movement that chilled Ortiz. He did a double take, first seeing the figure as they passed it before realising what it was. Almost twice a man’s height, frighteningly broad, armour the colour of rusty blood, crested by recurve brass antlers. The face was a graven death’s head. Daemon. Chaos Warrior. World Eater."

'Almost twice a man's height' equals at least 3 metres tall in my book.

"The killing started. The rasping belch of flamers reached his ears and he heard the screams of men cooking inside their superheated tank hulls. The Chaos Marine he had first spotted reached the Basilisk ahead of his and began to chop its shell like firewood with a chain-axe. Sparks blew up from punctured metal. Sparks, flames, metal shards, meat."

"Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ. He realised his [autocannon] ammo drum was almost empty. He was snapping it free and shouting to his bombardier for a fresh one when the shadow fell on him."

"Another Chaos Marine stood on the rear of the Basilisk behind him, a giant blocking out the pale sunlight. It stooped, and howled its victory shout into his face, assaulting him with concussive sonic force and wretched odour. Ortiz recoiled as if he had been hit by a macro shell. He could not move. The World Eater chuckled, a macabre, deep growl from behind the visor, a seismic rumble. The chainsword in its fist whined and swung up…"

"Another was flamed repeatedly as he ripped apart the wreck of a Basilisk with his steel hands. The flames touched off the tank’s magazine and the marine was incinerated with his victims. His hideous roar lingered long after the white-hot flames had consumed
him."

The Chaos Marines are mostly shot to death by lasguns though.

^Maybe the Berzerkers are wearing their patented very-tall-hat armor.

I did very much appreciate that the chaos codex at some point, and for several editions at least, just flatly stated that Marines are 7 feet tall, succinctly putting a cap on all the internetters who were arguing for 8-10+ based on various BL passages.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Maybe the Berzerkers are wearing their patented very-tall-hat armor.

I did very much appreciate that the chaos codex at some point, and for several editions at least, just flatly stated that Marines are 7 feet tall, succinctly putting a cap on all the internetters who were arguing for 8-10+ based on various BL passages.

yeah, but watch all the memers and blers ignore it

I've seen a few threads like this recently, it seems like the idea of the super-powerful Space Marine really rankles with a portion of the community?

Even as an Ork player I think they kinda have to be like that, because if they died as easily as they do on the tabletop then there would quickly be no marines left!

 Kroem wrote:
I've seen a few threads like this recently, it seems like the idea of the super-powerful Space Marine really rankles with a portion of the community?

Honestly it surprises me but I think its blowback from the fact that marines get a lot more marketing, books, core focal point of the setting, model releases*. I think its just people burning out on Marines and getting sick of the concept of them and wanting other races to feel like they are big, tough, strong, successful etc... and in the long term not just in the short term of one campaign or one major event.

Some also want the setting to change; for the 40year static grinding war to make a big leap. Not just "Oh chaos might split the Imperium in two" but an actual "they did it; half the Imperium got lost; new factions appeared; the Imperium torn apart etc..."





*individual marine subgroups might not get more than any other army; but add all of them up and then put 30K on top which is basically majority marines and has taken a very long time to even start fleshing out non-marine forces

I've always been pretty consistent in my idea of how tough marines are based on when I formed my impressions in 2e to 5e. I feel the game represents their power pretty well in that era. I was there when the books that upped the power of marines came out and I enjoyed them while also thinking they were over the top. Since then GW and the community have leaned into this until it has reached (to me) ludicrous levels that effectively start to denigrate other factions.

But although I grumble about it here I am aware that I am a minority and most people are happy with how things are. I think Dakka just skews older so a lot of us can remember how it has shifted over the years.

I find the setting more enjoyable when it isn't a marine power fantasy, but then I also like the setting as a setting and not an ongoing plot, so modern 40k isn't really for me.

I’ve always thought an astartes, without its gear, is on a level with an ork boy.

But astartes have much better tech and training / indoctrination. And they might not be scared of death but they understand that staying alive is crucial to achieving your goal.

It’s the tech and the tactics and the resources that allows space marines to achieve that godlike appearance on the battlefield.