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If a Chapter is limited to about 1500 Marines prior to the return of Roboute Guilliman, what is going to happen if they simply have too many recruits that pass the tests?

Are you going to tell me that Terra can sustain 10,000 Custodes and like half a million Space Marines at the beginning of the Great Crusade and Fenris, a baren Death World, can sustain 13,000 Space Wolves in 40k, but somehow Maccragge and several other planets combined can only have up to 1,500 Ultramarines because it's against the rule to have more?

Where do you think Successor Chapters come from?

Traditionally, many failed or aspiring recruits take up other duties as chapter serfs and naval personnel. There's always stuff to be done on the logistical side and the already indoctrinated younglings tend to be both fanatically loyal and reliable compared to the general population.

Dark Angels have secretly maintained a Legion command structure, whilst paying lip service to the Codex Astartes. Their successor chapters are successors in name only.

Black Templars exploit a loophole which says a chapter can go over regulation strength while on crusade, by always being on crusade.

Space Wolves just ignore it, because, Space Wolves.

I’m sure there are other examples.

bibotot wrote:
...but somehow Maccragge and several other planets combined can only have up to 1,500 Ultramarines because it's against the rule to have more?

First of all, if any Chapter would not do something because it's "against the rules" it's the Ultramarines.

Secondly, I have to also imagine that the current rate of attrition for most Chapters is high enough that this probably isn't a major problem for most of them.

For the Black Templars there are always more Crusades and never enough Neophytes.

I doubt the Black Templars even know what their current numbers are.

 BorderCountess wrote:

bibotot wrote:
...but somehow Maccragge and several other planets combined can only have up to 1,500 Ultramarines because it's against the rule to have more?

First of all, if any Chapter would not do something because it's "against the rules" it's the Ultramarines.

Secondly, I have to also imagine that the current rate of attrition for most Chapters is high enough that this probably isn't a major problem for most of them.

Don't forget they still have to tithe geneseed back to Terra.

Fight harder.

There are always more fights then there are marines. The loophole that the BT use (being on crusade) can be used by everyone. That orc cluster a few sectors over that you never had the manpower to clear? Now’s the time. Send a couple strike cruisers stuffed to the gills with reinforced overstrength squads and don’t come back until it’s gone.

Clear out a tomb world.
Cleanse a demon world.
Re-take fallen worlds.

There is so much to do in the galaxy. You know the chapter masters have a near endless lists of requests for aid. plus their own agendas. They need to do the calculus of manpower vs. casualties vs. missions. What can we do? What are the expected losses? How fast can we get the wounded back in the field and the recruits trained?

That’s part of the setting. Endless war, and while you might win some fights, it’s never clean and easy. The “win” leaves you damaged and weakend for the next hit, hope you can recover in time. If you have a chapter of marines at greater then full strength, you are probably up to something and need a visit from the inquisition...

Too many recruits that pass the tests? You misunderstand the purposes of the tests, the tests continue until they weed out all but the few that they want, the tests don't stop at some arbitrary end point.

Failures/drop outs end up as servitors, serfs, and other orderly's.

Codex-prescribed chapter size is not the only limiting factor... There's also the issue of equipment. Most Astartes chapters have resources that may seem almost limitless to outsiders, but even for them, a Marine-sized suit of power armor is likely a very precious piece of hardware, with some components that can only be made by a few select forge worlds. If a Marine is lost in battle, there's a high chance his armor is damaged beyond repair.

So even if a lot of spots open up in a chapter in a short time span due to heavy losses, perhaps there comes a point where there's too little equipment to outfit the current crop of recruits until more can be obtained. And I can't imagine a new batch of power armors can be made all that quickly, even if Roboute Guilliman himself has placed the order.

(This thread likely belongs in the Background section.)


EDIT:

BanjoJohn wrote:
Too many recruits that pass the tests? You misunderstand the purposes of the tests, the tests continue until they weed out all but the few that they want, the tests don't stop at some arbitrary end point.

Failures/drop outs end up as servitors, serfs, and other orderly's.

But then you don't necessarily get the best recruits overall. You only get the best of their respective cohorts.

Sometimes, either by sheer accident or through some sampling anomaly, you can have a cohort of 100 trainees that has 4 recruits who are Marine material, rather than just one. The second-best of them might even show more promise than some of those from past cohorts who did get accepted as full brothers.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:

(This thread likely belongs in the Background section.)

.

Heh. Makes me wonder, how big can a chapter get restricted by the game rules. Rule of 3, 6 for battleline. How many crew for allowed vehicles.

Probably less then the 1,000 marines per chapter line strength. Might be closer with legends included.

An aspirant will remain a Scout until they are ready and the chances are most would die before this.

If not? There are many roles within the Chapter that an Astartes can fulfill.

 Nevelon wrote:
Heh. Makes me wonder, how big can a chapter get restricted by the game rules. Rule of 3, 6 for battleline. How many crew for allowed vehicles.

Probably less then the 1,000 marines per chapter line strength. Might be closer with legends included.

Interesting thought experiment. It's sad that Battleline units are now limited to 6... A technically legal (though hardly playable) full chapter might have been allowable in a past edition.

Along the same lines, I seem to remember a non-unique Tzeentchian character from Age of Sigmar who, per the rules at the time, was limited to nine per army, presumably because there can only be nine of these people at any given time. It seemed odd to me that they'd even bother enshrining this fluff limitation into the rules, because who would think to field ten of that character, unless they're laser-focus-committed to going against the lore just for kicks? And in that case, then I say: let them.

 Gert wrote:
An aspirant will remain a Scout until they are ready and the chances are most would die before this.

Are scouts not considered full battle brothers for counting chapter strength? Interesting. I thought they were the equivalent of paid interns: young, still in training, needing to be shown the ropes and integrated into the team, but for all intents and purposes, already "hired".

.

Eh, it's a grey area.
Sure they have geneseed but they're not out of training and they don't have the Black Carapace to interact with Power Armour.
In practicality, they are part of the Chapter and its standing army but they aren't Astartes but in terms of philosophy, they are still an Aspirant.
Depends really on what you're looking at.

The thing is that the chances of a Chapter ever having the ability to get a bumper crop of recruits that leaves them with a technically overstrength Chapter is exceptionally rare.
But as I mentioned, there are a lot of postings within the Chapter which would mean that 10 extra Astartes wouldn't be a problem.
Older, more experienced warriors would be promoted to command or specialist duties such as the Chaplaincy or Chapter Forge, their subordinates would be promoted in turn and the "extras" slotted in wherever.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Codex-prescribed chapter size is not the only limiting factor... There's also the issue of equipment. Most Astartes chapters have resources that may seem almost limitless to outsiders, but even for them, a Marine-sized suit of power armor is likely a very precious piece of hardware, with some components that can only be made by a few select forge worlds. If a Marine is lost in battle, there's a high chance his armor is damaged beyond repair.

So even if a lot of spots open up in a chapter in a short time span due to heavy losses, perhaps there comes a point where there's too little equipment to outfit the current crop of recruits until more can be obtained. And I can't imagine a new batch of power armors can be made all that quickly, even if Roboute Guilliman himself has placed the order.

(This thread likely belongs in the Background section.)


EDIT:

BanjoJohn wrote:
Too many recruits that pass the tests? You misunderstand the purposes of the tests, the tests continue until they weed out all but the few that they want, the tests don't stop at some arbitrary end point.

Failures/drop outs end up as servitors, serfs, and other orderly's.

But then you don't necessarily get the best recruits overall. You only get the best of their respective cohorts.

Sometimes, either by sheer accident or through some sampling anomaly, you can have a cohort of 100 trainees that has 4 recruits who are Marine material, rather than just one. The second-best of them might even show more promise than some of those from past cohorts who did get accepted as full brothers.

.

But you're thinking too much like a modern person, and not like a 40k person.

 Gert wrote:
Eh, it's a grey area.
Sure they have geneseed but they're not out of training and they don't have the Black Carapace to interact with Power Armour.
In practicality, they are part of the Chapter and its standing army but they aren't Astartes but in terms of philosophy, they are still an Aspirant.
Depends really on what you're looking at.

The thing is that the chances of a Chapter ever having the ability to get a bumper crop of recruits that leaves them with a technically overstrength Chapter is exceptionally rare.
But as I mentioned, there are a lot of postings within the Chapter which would mean that 10 extra Astartes wouldn't be a problem.
Older, more experienced warriors would be promoted to command or specialist duties such as the Chaplaincy or Chapter Forge, their subordinates would be promoted in turn and the "extras" slotted in wherever.

There's also a lot of room to have genuine grey areas and/or exploits by various other means:
Depending on existing connections, a chapter may second substantial numbers of battle brothers to the Deathwatch or other Inquisition outfits.
At least a couple of Marines are seconded to the AdMech for training at all times; be it as specialists (i.e. in the chapter fleet or motherpools) or to become full-on techmarines.
There's a lot of tithing and aspirant-hunting going on (both figuratively and occassionally, literally) that needs at least a couple of Marines to oversee.
All of that usually includes substantial amounts of warp-travel, and with the amount of nonsense that encompasses, it might be genuinely unknowable which of the extant Marines operate according to schedule, are subject to some space-time distortion, or actually lost forever. News of catastrophic losses might reach you belatedly, or not at all - communication being almost as unreliable as warp travel - and on the other hand, "lost" ships might show up entirely safe and sound after years (or more, in extreme cases) due to warp current fluctuations. Most places in the Imperium don't even have first-hand reliable information what the current date is exactly, and rely on the imperial calendar system that essentially incorporates "degree removed from first-hand information" by necessity.

On top of that, the Imperium does stuff for stupid reasons all the time - they're religious fanatics bound to tradition, so a chapter might have, say, three companies of extra Marines standing around that they honestly reported as "deceased" because a decree from 7.000 years ago clearly states that "every brother that taketh the Oath of Numberwang shall henceforth be considered dead to the Chapter and all of mankind" or whatever.

Long story short: a couple squads over Codex strength would probably be what even Ultramarine sticklers aim for just to be on the safe side, and even a couple hundred might still be due to genuine error. You'd need to really throw away all pretense at even attempting to comply to have a reasonable chance to be noticed (and then, it would probably be by noticing that you tithe too little geneseed, for decades or something like that).

Depends entirely on their recruitment practices.

A freshly devastated Chapter which has otherwise retained its stock of Geneseed may low its recruitment standards so it can get back to fighting strength. A long standing Chapter may have enough raw data to be able to predict losses, and ensure a near constant, predictable flow of replacements.

Remember, the exacting standards of the modern era is by no means a set requirement. During the Heresy, pretty much anyone in the right age range could go through the conversion process, as Legions were “as big as you can”. More so with Legion Inductii in the closing stages.

But now you’ve a much firmer size limit? Why not really push your aspirants? Especially since Cawl has been able to purify and restore Geneseed stocks, making the process a bit more stable and predictable.

One also would question “how often is this sort of thing checked, and how reliable are the checkers?”. For any Chapter to be gathered together is a pretty rare event, as is for its forces to be particularly concentrated. So a casual observer might only see a handful of squads at a time, a Company if something is really kicking off.

And so it strikes me that it’s more a general overview that’s possible. For instance, if The Imperial Headsahoulderskneesandtoes are reported at Company Strength across 20 war zones at approximately the same time? Someone’s eyebrows are gonna get raised as a result.

But if it’s over a fair period of time (and The Imperium is slow at that sort of thing), it could be possible for it to be entirely on the level.

As for Inquisitorial oversight? The Space Wolves, and no doubt others, kind of demonstrate that’s “policing by consent”. All part of the inter departmental dance of who outranks who within The Imperium.

Games Workshop (assuming you play 40k. If you dont, you might need to find alternative lore) has parroted in white dwarf, index astartes and core rulebook the same line for the last two decades

"There is no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not fixed."

[--]

"The Codex Astartes places no limit on the number of Scout squads that may comprise the 10th Company,"

[--]

"There is no theoretical limit on how many Scout Squads there may be in the Company"