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For talk of Legends in 40k and other systems. Offshoot from a Horus Heresy thread.

Post 8th i can't think of a time where I DIDNT run 2-3 legends units.

I will continue to use the COMPLETELY LEGAL UNITS, if the person I'm playing against has a problem with that it's pretty easy to not play them again.

Cultists with Firearms are just flat better than non-Legends Cultists for the exact same points. Balanced!

Cultists are such a powerful unit too, absolute game changers! (Not)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Legends are legal and fun, they aren’t as well balanced as other units but that tends to be for the worse not the better so if you use them you are probably hindering yourself a bit by using cool models you like. I’m fine with that. If you are looking for an advantage you can find one probably by if that’s how you play you will find that advantage either in legends or the codex.

I have 2 issues with them.

1 They are not in the app, and I’m lazy.
2 There have been times in the past where the main rules were updated but the legends were not. This made for odd interactions. Either because they were using a pre-nerf/change version of a rule, or keywords are missing or don’t line up. The later is not a big deal with a sensible opponent, but the first can be problematic.

If GW wanted Legends to be considered as "just use them as normal unless you're playing in a formal organised tournament" then they should default the app to that, only having a "tournament legal" slider that people had to specifically enable.

But they don't do that, because GW in no way actually wants them to be considered for pick up games and wants them to go away.

Most things about the way 40k works in practice are related to the defaults.

 The Phazer wrote:
If GW wanted Legends to be considered as "just use them as normal unless you're playing in a formal organised tournament" then they should default the app to that, only having a "tournament legal" slider that people had to specifically enable.

But they don't do that, because GW in no way actually wants them to be considered for pick up games and wants them to go away.

Most things about the way 40k works in practice are related to the defaults.

Exactly.

GW wants legends to work well enough to placate older gamers, but not so much it hampers sales of new models.

Has anyone run into the barrier of an opponent not allowing you to use a Legends unit?

"Not allowing" - no, whining incessantly or backing out of a game because they nl"need to practice for their upcoming tournament" yes

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Has anyone run into the barrier of an opponent not allowing you to use a Legends unit?

I ran into 1 opponent in the recent Crusade who thought pointing out that some of my units were Legends meant something.
My response was "And...?"
●Turns out this Crusade was his 1st non-tourny 40k aside from learning to play.
●He also hadn't bothered to read the intro page/post about the Crusade. Where it's explicitly stated that as THIS IS NOT A TOURNAMENT, Legends are allowed.
(All of our Escalations, Crusades, etc allow Legends & the shop had no stance about what you can/cant use in casual play.)
●Before playing me he'd only faced relatively new players who simply don't own any Legends. And because they're using just the GW app, not the community downloads pages they haven't realized there's more options.

 The Phazer wrote:
If GW wanted Legends to be considered as "just use them as normal unless you're playing in a formal organised tournament" then they should default the app to that, only having a "tournament legal" slider that people had to specifically enable.

But they don't do that, because GW in no way actually wants them to be considered for pick up games and wants them to go away.

I don't know, this sounds a little bit like "I danced, then it rained, therefore my dance caused the rain" to me.

I think it's more likely that GW doesn't have programmers on staff, and all of the updates to the app this edition burned through that chunk of their budget, and that this might be something to hope for in 11th- especially if it's a 10.5 that doesn't require a massive do-over when they edition drops (like the had to do for 10th).

If GW didn't want Legends to exist, they wouldn't exist. Full stop.

It's annoying that they aren't in the app and GW should at least give them a pass once a year to clean up keywords and rules wordings.

Outside of that... if you got the models, use their rules.

I don't get the impression that GW actively want to get rid of legends. It seems more like they simply don't want to have to commit time and energy to every single datasheet that ever existed for all of eternity. So they give us enough rules to use our old models, but there's an asterisk basically saying,

"Look. We're not putting man hours into making sure these are balanced any more. If that bothers you, maybe don't use these."

Which is mostly fine in my book. My only frustrations are when things end up as legends when it feels like they should probably still be supported (Karandras), or when it seems like the legends version of the unit was especially half-assed/unsatisfying (the 7th edition corsairs units).

My take is that Legends content is stuff that GW overwhelmingly wants to discontinue production of without replacement, but wants to avoid the "raawwwr you squatted my gak" outrage. So they move it to legends and discontinue ongoing support for it to get people to stop buying it (thus nobody goes "aww but i just bought this last week", and if they do they are met with "well what did you expect?") but its still "usable" for a bit so that the various shills, water carriers, and useful idiots in this community (you know who you are) will shoot down any complaint about it being made legends with the good old mod edit - removed

Then a couple years later the model gets quietly removed from sale and the Legends sheets get removed from circulation at the next edition update and nobody says a peep because of the extended "stand down" period causing it to be expected and old news by the time it happens.

Nothing wrong with using Legends. If you want to put them in your army feel free. The rules are pretty clear on that.

"What is in the rules" and "the way the game is practically played" are not the same thing, I've been to quite a few stores and clubs and the unspoken assumption for pick up games has been that tournament rules are the default. Remember for quite a long time the rule of 3 and base sizing rules were not core 40k rules but were tournament/event rules. They were still widely adopted outside of that context to the point where people assumed they were core rules anyway.

I can understand why this was the case, the implication is that tournament rules are more balanced so in a pick up game with a stranger you'd want to be sure to have as balanced a game as you practically can. You don't necessarily know your opponent, so there's less trust there than in a club setting or playing with friends.

This extends to Legends, GW explicitly says they are excluded from balance updates. If they're excluded from updates the obvious implications are that they are either perfectly balanced inherently, or that they are (or will be) unbalanced. Why would you want to allow your random opponent to use units that GW themselves are calling unbalanced? This is very much a continuation of the period in the 90/00s where a lot of players disallowed Forgeworld units because they weren't "proper GW"

Honestly I just chalk this up to another way tournaments have influenced/ruined 40k,and I agree with chaosxomega both about the probable reason for legending units and the eventual outcome. Legends units are on the Toy Story 3 conveyor belt to the furnace, it's just a very slow moving belt.

Personally I love casual games, I'm all for legends and crazy conversions and weird unusual units, I hate when units are removed from the codex and shunted off into the abyss of Legending

GW's job is to provide me with rules for their models. If they fail at that I'll find someone who does a better job.
Legends are totally valid rules and it's good for GW to even update most of them every edition. Better would be to keep them in the codex but it is what it is.

Charax wrote:
I agree with chaosxomega both about the probable reason for legending units and the eventual outcome. Legends units are on the Toy Story 3 conveyor belt to the furnace, it's just a very slow moving belt.

While it's certainly true for some kits, it's demonstrably untrue for others, and therefore untrue as a generalization.

Espern Locarno had a Legends datasheet, yet now the Navigator is a Codex entry in Imperial Agents. Euclidian Starstriders became the Rogue Trader + Entourage and Voidsmen units. The Arvus Lighter was rereleased in plastic, though only for Heresy. Other Heresy units with Legends cards for 40k aren't going anywhere, even if their 40k rules eventually do... And quite frankly, any edition could bring them all back to 40k in the same way that 10th removed them.

This isn't to say that all (or even most) units sent to Legends will get a second chance- that would be foolish. But it's equally foolish to say that all (or even most of them) are doomed to eternal removal by design.

GW does seem to be legitimately interested in maintaining some method of support for old models, its just a matter of scope. They can't keep producing new models and keep the old in stock and if the model isn't for sale, its really crummy to make it part of the competitive game.

We've, for years known and seen the value of limited formats. Designers can better balance things and probably more importantly, new players can reliably get what they need to compete. That's basically all Legends is, GW supporting the old stuff without taking on the production and design burdens associated with it.

 LunarSol wrote:
GW does seem to be legitimately interested in maintaining some method of support for old models, its just a matter of scope. They can't keep producing new models and keep the old in stock and if the model isn't for sale, its really crummy to make it part of the competitive game.

We've, for years known and seen the value of limited formats. Designers can better balance things and probably more importantly, new players can reliably get what they need to compete. That's basically all Legends is, GW supporting the old stuff without taking on the production and design burdens associated with it.

I agree, the people thinking there is some sinister motive behind legends are being a overly cynical, I think of legends exactly as GW talks about them, they are old models, not in production or moved to another games system, we’ve done basic rules but won’t put in much/any more effort into them after that. Enjoy them but don’t expect updates and there is no guarantee that they remain around from one edition to the next.

It’s good they have been so explicit this edition about them being legal in all but tournament settings and seems to have reduced much of the grumbling about them. 100% should be in the app, even as an option to toggle on/off.

I find it a bit odd that you can agree with GW spending minimal resources on providing Legends datasheet and then expect them to spend more resources to put them in their App. Kinda defeats the purpose.

 alextroy wrote:
I find it a bit odd that you can agree with GW spending minimal resources on providing Legends datasheet and then expect them to spend more resources to put them in their App. Kinda defeats the purpose.

Once the app is set up, adding units is just data entry. Maybe a little photo cropping. It’s a resource, but relatively simple work. We’re not talking about the effort to make sure all the legends datasheets are up to date with FAQ, check them for interactions with strats/detachments/other units/etc. having more “active” datasheets is very resource intensive on the rules crew.

 Nevelon wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I find it a bit odd that you can agree with GW spending minimal resources on providing Legends datasheet and then expect them to spend more resources to put them in their App. Kinda defeats the purpose.

Once the app is set up, adding units is just data entry. Maybe a little photo cropping. It’s a resource, but relatively simple work. We’re not talking about the effort to make sure all the legends datasheets are up to date with FAQ, check them for interactions with strats/detachments/other units/etc. having more “active” datasheets is very resource intensive on the rules crew.

Presumably.

It's possible the app is poorly designed and it takes a lot of effort to put in new datasheets. Or, perhaps, adding a Legends toggle would take a lot of work.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I find it a bit odd that you can agree with GW spending minimal resources on providing Legends datasheet and then expect them to spend more resources to put them in their App. Kinda defeats the purpose.

Once the app is set up, adding units is just data entry. Maybe a little photo cropping. It’s a resource, but relatively simple work. We’re not talking about the effort to make sure all the legends datasheets are up to date with FAQ, check them for interactions with strats/detachments/other units/etc. having more “active” datasheets is very resource intensive on the rules crew.

Presumably.

It's possible the app is poorly designed and it takes a lot of effort to put in new datasheets. Or, perhaps, adding a Legends toggle would take a lot of work.

Even if it does, that’s going to be resources from the app/web/tech pool. Not miniature sculptors, not rules writers. Sure, it’s hours being paid to staff, and that’s got to come out of the bottom line somewhere. But army X is not getting unit Y because the added legends to the app

And the option for legends units is in the AoS app, not that I’ve played around with it. Just checked the option is there in the prefs. So any tech barrier is not insurmountable, and probably already solved of the apps are built off the same core.

I proposed to my friend who runs events for his next tournament to do Legends units only, or a minimum of 50% of your points be Legends. Just to thumb our noses at GWs choices.

I think sadly it's not reasonable to expect GW to keep up a steady stream of new releases and new options and also maintain all the old ones to a high level of balance (if that's what people want, and they seem to).

They've expanded the game massively over the years and the rate of expansion is only increasing.

Legends is about as pain free a way to remove things from the ranges that they don't want to maintain as possible.

My main gripe with Legends is the same as my general gripe with GW - they're not very evenhanded with it. Some factions get really badly hit by Legends when they already don't have much to work with in terms of unit choice, others maintain deep rosters with less proportional loss of units. Sometimes a unit going into legends is really old and you can see why, other times it's a relatively recent miniature or entire range of miniatures that you could reasonably expect to be able to play with for a while longer.

Lets be fair - even for core factions GW's rules support is spotty and iffy at best.

GW has married itself to new editions every 3 years where each one re-writes the game from the ground up. Sometimes big changes sometimes smaller but still key. Heck this last edition GW decide to just thrust Power Levels on all of us.

These choices seem to be led mostly by a desire to constantly be changing the rules to drive sales of books and models. The fundamental problem is that such a rapid turn-over of rules means they can't really keep up with everything.


They could if they took a different pathway but unless they shift to a longer more static rules system that tweaks rather than wholesale changes - then we are stuck with a system that is basically overloaded.




Legends gets the worse hand because GW is pulling away support for selling the models. Maybe not instantly, but eventually they are set to vanish. So there's no money for GW save for historical customers and thus even less reason to invest into the rules development when its already overloaded keeping up with hte current material.

It is also very random - some armies lose a few special characters but gain others; some lose models that can easily just work as counts-as for others; some lose entire chunks of models in one go.
We also see some slip out and then reappear later whilst others just outright vanish.

It all feels very random and the iffy balance of hte core game then matched to even more iffy legends balance generally results in it feeling like legends is a death to those models and that many people don't want to play with legends content in their game.



Honestly I think its because Legends is basically an underfunded corner of GW that has choices driven purely by management, bean counters and manufacture. It's not hobby/game focused. It's that last bastion that you wouldn't be surprised is the pet project of one staffer in their free time because they are super passionate, but ultimately also run out of time; have insufficient staff to properly test and as its not really "their job" they don't gain full support but GW will publish it now and then. f




What's crazy is this is the same GW who are tapping into old model nostalgia like crazy right now. They realise there is value in supporting things they've pulled down and in not pulling down models/armies. On the one hand GW are supporting old stuff like never before yet with the other they are not


Amazingly they aren't alone with this - look at video games and despite the huge proof that nostalgic old games make good money there's still a vast number which get zero support for release or updates or patches or support and still a focus by managers on fast profits from a game and then quickly mothballing them for a new one.

I for one and happy for Legends, back in the mists of editions past, if your model was not 'current' it was just a momento of previous games, never to be played with again.

(ie. Griffon Mortar Carrier, Lord Solar Macharius, etc.)

 Overread wrote:
On the one hand GW are supporting old stuff like never before yet with the other they are not.

It's more that GW support the idea of the old stuff (because nostalgia sells) than necessarily the models/collections directly.

Hence Sisters of Battle tanks randomly gained hull heavy bolters...

 Da Boss wrote:
I think sadly it's not reasonable to expect GW to keep up a steady stream of new releases and new options and also maintain all the old ones to a high level of balance (if that's what people want, and they seem to).

There's an awful lot of middle ground between 'maintain[ing] all the old ones to a high level of balance' and the current situation, which is that they aren't maintained at all, and Legends basically just means the next time a major game update comes along the unit will no longer be playable due to rules incompatibilities.

If Legends units got a balance pass / rules update every 1-2 years (while the main tournament-approved codex-only lists continue to receive quarterly balance updates) I don't think there'd be much complaint. The folks who want to run Legends units aren't the ones clamoring for the highest level of balance possible. It's just the countdown to unusability that makes Legends effectively a death sentence for units that wind up on that list.