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I'm reading Dan Abnett's Double Eagle (I needed something to remind me he can actually write after End and the Death, Ender and the Deather and Endest and the Deathest).

It's all about Thunderbolts, Lightnings and Marauders but they all act like they're in WWII (because if they behaved like modern fighters, to say nothing of space fighters there'd be no story). I thought those planes could break atmosphere but apparently not?

Or is it just an inconsistency?

Yes, they are used in ship to ship combat.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Yes, they are used in ship to ship combat.

No they are not.

Imperial space fighters are Furies, and space bombers are Starhawks.

Imperial Thunderbolts, Lightnings, and Marauders can deploy from space and get back to a ship in space through use of a booster but they are essentially atmospheric fighters. This aspect is specifically detailed in their original Imperial Armour entries:

The Thunderbolt, like the Lightning, is equipped with a rocket booster engine. This can be engaged to give the fighter limited operational capability in space. This is only for transport and deployment, not for combat, and Thunderbolts are not true 'star-fighters', a role left to Imperial Furies. The rocket engine allows a Thunderbolt to deploy from a space ship in low planetary orbit into the atmosphere, and can be engaged once the aircraft has reached its atmospheric ceiling with its jet engines to boost the fighter back to its waiting mothership. The rocket engine is also used in fast launch ramp take-offs.

p. 223, Imperial Armour Volume 1

No they aren't. The aircraft used by the Aeronautica Imperialis aren't space worthy and the Navy has its own attack craft such as Fury Interceptors and Starhawk Bombers.

In one of the black library books they were carried in a converted merchantman with the intention of being used in a asteroid field or hulk or similar that had its own weak gravity.

Lexicanum has a reference for a void-capable variant of the Marauder, apparently coming from an issue of Inferno. However, this seems more like poor coordination between comic writers and the rest of the fluff side of GW, as the “variant” reads like a totally different craft

Yes. The Marauders are...

Check Inferno! 9, pgs. 52-53 — Raptor Squadron

Voidborne variant
The Marauder Bomber has a variant that is used in void-combat, being stationed on Navy vessels. This variant is far bigger than its terrestrial counterpart, being 260 feet long, with a wingspan of 360 feet and weighing 190 tons unladen. In planetary operations mode, it has a maximum range of 4000 ikm, extended to 6500 ikm with auxiliary fuel supply, and a maximum atmospheric thrust of 286.752. During space-borne operations, the Marauder variant has a maximum interstellar thrust of 502.73 and a flight time of 9.3 hours, extended to 14 hours with auxiliary air tanks.

It is armed with nose-mounted Vulcan pattern lascannons, two dorsal-mounted twin autocannons and tail-mounted heavy bolters. It carries a payload of six wing-slung Flail missiles and 14,500 ilbs of explosives or incendiaries. Its crew consists of six persons, a flight commander, a bombardier, a Mechanicus tech-adept and three gunners, one first class and two second class.

The Marauder variant operates in squadrons of five crafts, with another one as back up. The squadron consists of thirty crew members, with ten additionally as standby reserves, and is serviced by a ground crew of fifty, including tech-priests and servitors.

 Flinty wrote:
Lexicanum has a reference for a void-capable variant of the Marauder, apparently coming from an issue of Inferno. However, this seems more like poor coordination between comic writers and the rest of the fluff side of GW, as the “variant” reads like a totally different craft

There are other references to Lightnings in space too.

But saying it's not an acceptable option due to it being weird variant doesn't track for me, because the "Recon" Night Marauder variant that has a model, doesn't even look like a traditional Marauder.

In “Imperial Airpower” from WD 187, which I believe marks the first mention of the Thunderbolt and Marauder, Andy Chambers has this to say:

The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes use aircraft* to protect their Thunderhawk Gunships and to soften up landing zones and spearhead their lightning assaults. These aircraft squadrons usually operate from orbiting Imperial battle barges and are configured to fight in the vacuum of space as well as within planetary atmospheres.

* We can infer that the “aircraft” referred to include Thunderbolts and Marauders, as the article includes army list entries for those units for Space Marines.

This supports the idea that they are not spaceworthy by default, but that spaceworthy variants do exist.

Sounds like the answer is... it depends.

Looking online it seems the normal 'space fighter' is the Fury Interceptor, a Thunderhawk-sized gun ship with a crew of 4 or more rather than a Viper or X-Wing style one-man ship.



https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Doesn't look like there's ever been a model, I can't even find a scratch build which is weird considering the crazy stuff people have built.



Hrm.

Certainly I recall the BFG Fighters described as around the size of a passenger jet. The big ones mind. Not the private ones.

Also?

Eh! Eh! D’you remember, eh, d’you? Remember? Back in the Nineteeeeen Niiiiinties, when Marauder were armed with a Battlecannon? Eh? D’you remember that?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Sounds like the answer is... it depends.

Looking online it seems the normal 'space fighter' is the Fury Interceptor, a Thunderhawk-sized gun ship with a crew of 4 or more rather than a Viper or X-Wing style one-man ship.



https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Doesn't look like there's ever been a model

They made little tiny ones for Battlefleet Gothic: http://solegends.com/citcat2006us/c2006usp0839-00.htm

Well if the craft is capable of flying to a spaceship in low orbit then it is space-capable, but there's a big difference between being able to fly a short distance through space and a long distance. Stuff like reaction mass, the ability to remove heat, oxygen, and so on could strictly limit the time/distance compared to atmosphere. If you're talking about effectively fighting in space then there would be even more requirements.

So it sounds like by default they can boost through space for a short distance to reach a planet or space station. And they could theoretically fight in space but very poorly; they probably can't maneuver or target well and they would run out of fuel or overheat quickly. But then some of them are modified to actually be decent at it, which is possible because they were designed with limited space-capability to start with.

Right but it's not like an X-Wing which is a dual capable craft though is it?

A dinghy is still a boat but that doesn't make it seaworthy.

I guess it's a matter of how you define it, I would say it's "capable" of traveling through space (unlike a modern jet fighter) but not "worthy" of use in space (unless it's the modified variant) due to its extreme limitations. "Dual-capable" sounds misleading because the space capability is so much worse, but I guess it depends on the context as well.

You could say it's more like a wagon that's designed to float short distances out to sea to be picked up by a ship. It's notable that it can do that because a wagon usually can't, but it isn't equivalent to even a proper rowboat less a sailing ship.

Maybe "limited space capability" is the clearest way to describe it.

Again though, the Thunderbolt doesn't work as a fighter in space. It can launch and break atmosphere thanks to its booster rocket but that's it.

It would be like using a Space Shuttle as a fighter.

Going on the very very broad definition of "can it be in space and move" then yes the Thunderbolt is a "space worthy" craft.
But in the context of the question where it is used in its intended role as fighter craft then the answer is no.

But Kyoto's post references the ability to break atmosphere (which they do have) not the ability to fight effectively afterwards. That's why I said it's contextual, capable of doing what in space?

And the context of the question is the confusion on why all the combat is similar to that of WW2 aerial engagements.

A Thunderbolt can launch from an orbiting base and return to that base using its booster rocket. It cannot fight in the vacuum of space because it is not a void-combat capable craft.

And regarding the combat in Double Eagle, an engagement between modern aircraft would be a very similar set of scenarios.
Bomber interceptions and dogfights would be the order of the day. It's why the Top Gun academy exists, to make sure US pilots have the training to dogfight if they ever get into such a situation..
However, no nation on Earth has fought a total war scenario on equal footing with its opponent since WW2, so we have no relevant examples from which to draw.

Yeah my question is, are the planes in Double Eagle limited to the atmosphere or not?

Because so far all the scenarios have ignored things like satellite reconnaissance, and even radar. One plot point is they have trouble finding 1 kilometer long (!!) rolling land aircraft carriers. They have to follow enemy fighters back home. That's a valid sort of thing from the Pacific War in WWII but not anything modern.

It implies they don't have any space/high altitude recon and that the bad guys don't have radar (or rear view mirrors).

Which is fine! This is a universe where green fungus monsters fights space demons from the id, this is fine!

It was just bugging me that I thought Imperial fighters were more like X-Wings that could fly and fight in atmosphere and out.

In that case I guess the answer would be that they carry insufficient rocket-fuel to go into low-orbit during missions, unless they can dock and refuel in the process.

But as for sensors and communications, that's always been something that's barely functional in 40k. Imperial Guard can't even radio in orders unless a guy has a giant walkie talkie backpack. I vaguely recall an old statement that ECM is scrambling stuff constantly and that's the reason for it.

I'm only halfway through but yeah, all it requires is a handwave like 'ion storms' or even better 'warp storms' which are basically Space Magic and then you don't have to explain nothing!

How is that a laser, which moves at the speed of light because it LITERALLY is light, can miss a target you can see?

Warp Storms!

Like I said I am not looking for hard SF in my Warhammer books. Cool airplanes go zoom is about about the limit of my desire, but when stuff is just... dumb, it makes it hard to appreciate the Cool Airplanes Going Zoom!

And I picked this up to clear the palette after the terrible money grab that was End Hardest.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yeah my question is, are the planes in Double Eagle limited to the atmosphere or not?

Because so far all the scenarios have ignored things like satellite reconnaissance, and even radar. One plot point is they have trouble finding 1 kilometer long (!!) rolling land aircraft carriers. They have to follow enemy fighters back home. That's a valid sort of thing from the Pacific War in WWII but not anything modern.

It implies they don't have any space/high altitude recon and that the bad guys don't have radar (or rear view mirrors).

Which is fine! This is a universe where green fungus monsters fights space demons from the id, this is fine!

It was just bugging me that I thought Imperial fighters were more like X-Wings that could fly and fight in atmosphere and out.

The Imperium doesn't really do satellite surveillance because why would it? You have to remember that Earth has so many surveillance and spy satellites because it's not a unified world. The various governments of Imperial worlds don't need to be spying on themselves.

More to the point, this is a world being invaded. At some point, an enemy fleet held orbital supremacy and would have had plenty of time to destroy any surveillance satellites present.

In terms of orbital naval supremacy, it's an active warzone, and the Imperial Navy doesn't have a permanent presence in orbit as it is needed throughout the system to fight off any reinforcing fleets.

Ultimately, 40k isn't modern. That's the point. Humanity might have access to lasers and space ships but they don't actually understand any of it, and the culture of suspicion and subservience keeps anyone from making any real technological understanding.

I hate to sound like I'm yucking your yum here but none of this is remotely new territory for 40k.

Also, given the Imperium’s Very Odd Relationship With Technology, it could be that what we would consider near miraculous stealth technology is just part of everyday military hardware for them.

Because it’s not low tech. They’ve plenty near physics defying technology in use everyday - but they so thoroughly don’t understand it, they don’t know how miraculous it is.

And there are catch-all terms for what may very well be separate branches of technology.

For instance, an Auspex. We know they’re not all equal. Marines have really good ones, Guard have “it’ll do” ones. And they don’t necessarily work along the same principles.

Consider in the real world we have Radar. We also have gas spectrometers, which can be used on Lorries entering the UK to check for excess CO2, indicating people might be hiding in the trailer. The latter there could, with a little Space Magic, be used in an open environment to monitor localised increases in CO2, and so suggest where enemy troops might be lying in wait. The same with heat sensors etc. And so a relatively basic Auspex could tell you “there’s stuff over there”, a more sophisticated model could tell you the direction, headcount, make and model of armour etc.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Because so far all the scenarios have ignored things like satellite reconnaissance, and even radar. One plot point is they have trouble finding 1 kilometer long (!!) rolling land aircraft carriers. They have to follow enemy fighters back home. That's a valid sort of thing from the Pacific War in WWII but not anything modern.

As far as I'm aware, the way Abnett writes military stuff is that he just squeezes WW2 into 40k and then doesn't go overly into details so the reader won't catch on like you did. He is otherwise completely oblivious.

I think that’s rather unfair. Space magic works in both directions, sensing and ECM. People know how WW2 conflict works, and such conflicts are as viable in 40k as any other. Why put effort into describing stuff hat the reader doesn’t really need to engage with to enjoy the story?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Because so far all the scenarios have ignored things like satellite reconnaissance, and even radar. One plot point is they have trouble finding 1 kilometer long (!!) rolling land aircraft carriers. They have to follow enemy fighters back home. That's a valid sort of thing from the Pacific War in WWII but not anything modern.

As far as I'm aware, the way Abnett writes military stuff is that he just squeezes WW2 into 40k and then doesn't go overly into details so the reader won't catch on like you did. He is otherwise completely oblivious.

Based on your logic, Star Wars is bad, because Lucas specifically used WW2 dogfights in the production of the way the Millennium Falcon and the X-Wings fight.

Use what people understand to tell a good story is a fundamental part of good writing.

Why am I bringing it up because there are easy, easy fixes.

Besides the lazy "ion storms" it could be a simple thing to work into an early scene.

Captain: We need to track down their carriers, they're a kilometer long and rolling across the desert.
Hotshot Rookie: Why can't the navy find them with orbital auguries, a thing that's been established exists in our fictional universe?
Grizzled vet: (Laughs) Kid there ain't no Navy here, not no more. They lit out an hour after we deployed.
Hotshot Rookie: You mean-
Captain: We're on our own.

See?

Done and done.

Or swap the 1 km long carriers for submarines. Or give them the ability to bury themselves in the sand so the only time to hit them is when they briefly surface to launch and retrieve fighters. You get the idea.

 Flinty wrote:
Why put effort into describing stuff that the reader doesn’t really need to engage with to enjoy the story?

This is my exact point. With the added notion that a story with that kind of worldbuilding would be anything but "cool airplanes going zoom".

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Why am I bringing it up because there are easy, easy fixes.

Besides the lazy "ion storms" it could be a simple thing to work into an early scene.

Captain: We need to track down their carriers, they're a kilometer long and rolling across the desert.
Hotshot Rookie: Why can't the navy find them with orbital auguries, a thing that's been established exists in our fictional universe?
Grizzled vet: (Laughs) Kid there ain't no Navy here, not no more. They lit out an hour after we deployed.
Hotshot Rookie: You mean-
Captain: We're on our own.

See?

Done and done.

Or swap the 1 km long carriers for submarines. Or give them the ability to bury themselves in the sand so the only time to hit them is when they briefly surface to launch and retrieve fighters. You get the idea.

Most people have the ability to read between the lines though. You shouldn't need to be told in black and white that a system that is in the middle of an invasion might not have the navy present over the planet at all times.

Double Eagle was just Battle of Britain in 40k

 Gert wrote:

The Imperium doesn't really do satellite surveillance because why would it? You have to remember that Earth has so many surveillance and spy satellites because it's not a unified world. The various governments of Imperial worlds don't need to be spying on themselves.

No government would ever spy on its own population, right? Certainly not authoritarian leaning ones. That would just never happen.