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I must have thought about making a thread like this about the Motive Force for at least a year or two. I've found it incredibly interesting but I never considered any way it might be *useful*, until only recently when I realized this bit of lore could be something incredible in the upcoming parts of my Necromunda RPG campaign. Oh man, this could be a doozy.
The Motive Force. Part of the mechanicus holy trinity – 1) Omnissiah, 2) Machine God, and 3) the Motive Force. Almost no lore has existed on the Motive Force, and all I’ve ever seen of it online is just people saying ‘lol it’s just electricity’. Which is great fun, even hilarious that the mechanicus is getting all bent out of shape over TRULY nothing. I do love genuinely love that notion, so bear that in mind as I go on.
However, this is 40k we’re talking about. Realm of literal crazy, where everything has meaning, and all that is imaginary is secretly real. And I absolutely love the setting for that, too. Upon thinking about it, I honestly I think there is plenty of sensible room for there to be something *more* behind the Motive Force in the lore – and I believe it’s definitely not my idea. These suggestions already exist in the lore.
But off the top, what is the Motive Force? I think I need to get into it a little here. It’s basically defined as the power that courses through all life. There’s the electro priests who have had a civil war over whether that means the Motive Force is best appeased by ‘going nuts’ with it and using it on everything and everyone, or the other faction’s point of view which is that this power is best served not wasted, i.e. best to just conserve everything (and use the Motive Force an enemy already possesses against them).
The 40k Fandom wiki says it’s defined as:
“In addition to the Machine God and its Omnissiah, there was a third member of the Cult Mechanicus’ divine trinity. This was the “Motive Force,” an ineffable and invisible divine power or spirit said to exist throughout the universe that was responsible for the ability of all life, whether it was mechanical or flesh, to move of its own accord.”
They believe the Motive Force is a divine power or spirit. Thinking of this has got me thinking about the four fundamental forces. Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear Force, and Weak Nuclear Force. I’m far from any kind of subject matter expert for these things, but the fact that all forces in the universe can be categorized in four ways given what we know right now gets me thinking. All four of which have effects on humanity. What if there was something out there that really did unify all these?
Considering the lore, and how the Machine God is almost certainly some shard(s) of the Void Dragon, then the Motive Force could just be an extension of its will, because that kind of checks all the boxes for those who know Void Dragon lore. Right?
Well, I’m not quite so sure. For one the Void Dragon has never really ‘created’ life as we know it, and we don’t know if it has the capability. And of course, it was defeated, so – an ultimate fundamental force of the universe it is not. That being said, I doubt this means the Void Dragon/Machine God cannot *manipulate* the Motive Force, or parts of it, but I can see us talking about two different things here. And this is where it gets interesting.
If the Motive Force is a spirit, and a divine being, then it likely has a will.
So with that in mind, I present to you two key excerpts from Fire Made Flesh by Denny Flowers, one of the best Necromunda novels ever made:
_____
Spoiler:
Sol opened his eye and saw nothing. The room was dark, the only light the green hue of the medi-unit’s display. By its glow he could barely make out the bedframe on which he lay. His right arm was bandaged, angry scars peeping from beneath the dressing. He flexed his fingers, trying to lift it, but the limb hung useless by his side. ‘I am afraid surgery was required.’
The whisper came from the shadows. His eyes were adjusting, and by the stolen light of the medi-unit he could just make out Anguis’ face. ‘That hardware in your arm had to come out,’ she continued. ‘The wires were fried, and there may be some neurological damage. But you did it, Sol. Your storm ended Pureburn’s rule. He is finished, and even House Cawdor now speaks of the God-Emperor’s tempest that freed Periculus.’
‘Oh yes,’ she said, stepping closer. ‘You almost killed yourself channelling her power, but you gave me an opening. I took care of everything else.’
Only when he was certain she had gone did he straighten, rising smoothly from the bed. It was still dark in the room, the medi-unit the only source of light. He held out his bandaged hand, examining the scarred fingers, now stripped of wire and circuit. No energy syphon, no neurone circuits. Only flesh remained. Only Sol.
He was just human now.
Yet, above him, the lumens flickered. Slowly, light bled into the room. It was enough to catch his reflection on the medi-unit’s screen. His face was scarred, burns running across forehead and cheek. His lost eye was covered. He concentrated, for a moment, on a now familiar feeling. Beneath the dressing, a light sputtered into life, shimmering.
He held out his palm. Within, a tiny star glimmered into being.
He smiled. Perhaps he would make a good Delaque after all.
The novel had shown him using what he believed to be the Motive Force to great power and extent, one of his eyes having been destroyed by it (just like electro priests). He even saw what seemed like small stars, bits of radiant, brilliant power that filled the dome he was in that guided him along his path. He charged up a regular mace with electric power and ended up single handedly fending off many gangers with it. There were a number of fascinating things along the way like this. Yes, the implication is that he was ‘empowered’ during this time when he used this mostly electric power. But in the end, he *still* had this…fundamental force…with him.
So all of this to me suggests that, in the Motive Force, we have a divine entity that is essentially *the* fundamental force of the universe - one that likely has a will – but without a face or name. Essentially elemental, but very real. Something that can guide and empower just as much as any god, but exists as a fabric of the universe that any can manipulate as well.
To me, this means that electro priests are just the beginning of what a force like this can mean for all of 40k. Just a start for what powers there might be, what mysteries might be around the corner, what esoteric ‘wells’ of the Motive Force’s power, or what it has changed or intersected, might exist within the setting. Or even what demi-gods of its might could yet lurk out there. Maybe even the c’tan are derived from it. Examples of some of its children, far more benign beings prior to when the necrontyr reached out to them.
The possibilities are endless, and I think this is a real force worth consideration and worship for the inhabitants of 40k. But what do you all think? What have you believed about the Motive Force, and from where do you derive your own references? Where does this lead your minds? Where am I wrong? What possibilities does this line of thinking inspire?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2025/06/01 01:15:35
It’s a superstitious term of all forms of electrical activity.
To the best of our current knowledge, our Brains and Bodies work on electricity. We can stop hearts from arresting using a defibrillator, then get a regular beat going by CPR. To some degree of possible quackery, mental illnesses are addressed with electroshock therapy.
We’re pretty good at generating it for other purposes too.
Now, strip out all actual proper understanding as we have it now (even mine, which isn’t great in detail or quantity) and you get to the Mechanicus. Add in its superstition, and you get the Motiven Force,
Living things have it. Dead things do not. You can forcibly add it to Living Things, you can forcibly subtract it from Living Things. And in most circumstances, doing so will render is a Dead Thing. We also know Souls absolutely exist in 40K as a setting, adding a further layer.
The Electropriest equipment is clearly meant to work in concert, creating a circuit of destruction to use crude terms. One sooks it up, the other dishes it out. And round and round and round it goes.
But, at the end of the day? The Motive Force is indeed “just” electricity, but with extra bells and whistles.
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I'll preface by saying I'm really annoyed by the (seemingly fairly recent) Mechanicus trinity stuff. The Imperium is already Space Catholicism, we didn't need a second Space Catholicism.
I lean more towards Mad Dok's point, but I think it's a little more muddied. The Motive Force is just whatever animates something, usually electricity but it could also reference will/spirit, or even just the execution of a machine carrying out it's task. It's just 18th century style ideas about there being a fundamental life force, vitae, what have you.
It’s a superstitious term of all forms of electrical activity.
To the best of our current knowledge, our Brains and Bodies work on electricity. We can stop hearts from arresting using a defibrillator, then get a regular beat going by CPR. To some degree of possible quackery, mental illnesses are addressed with electroshock therapy.
The correct term is electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) and there is good research evidence it is effective in depression and severe psychosis. It is a medical procedure that is performed regularly in major hospitals all over the world under anesthetic and with a muscle relaxant for partial paralysis during the procedure. The convulsive part is the key term as it is not the amount of current going in that is important, but the waveform (delivered to the right position) as that is what triggers the seizure which is what is therapeutic, like a Reset or Reboot button for the brain.
A regular heartbeat is achieved using a pacemaker. Again it is the pattern and rhythm rather than the sheer amount of current. Having more is not necessarily better.
Anyway back to 40K, the Motive Force is basically electricity but with an additional mystical layer added on. I suppose one could try to generalize the Motive Force to be Gibbs free energy, the thermoydynamic potential to do work, within the universe.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2025/06/01 20:40:07
ScarletRose wrote:I'll preface by saying I'm really annoyed by the (seemingly fairly recent) Mechanicus trinity stuff. The Imperium is already Space Catholicism, we didn't need a second Space Catholicism.
I lean more towards Mad Dok's point, but I think it's a little more muddied. The Motive Force is just whatever animates something, usually electricity but it could also reference will/spirit, or even just the execution of a machine carrying out it's task. It's just 18th century style ideas about there being a fundamental life force, vitae, what have you.
I definitely forgot about the vitae/18th century type stuff. I've started to look into it again. Fascinating thought, and interesting that it's still something that is talked about today, apparently. Leave it to 40k to get me interested in 'RL' versions of things... Thank you!
It’s a superstitious term of all forms of electrical activity.
To the best of our current knowledge, our Brains and Bodies work on electricity. We can stop hearts from arresting using a defibrillator, then get a regular beat going by CPR. To some degree of possible quackery, mental illnesses are addressed with electroshock therapy.
The correct term is electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) and there is good research evidence it is effective in depression and severe psychosis. It is a medical procedure that is performed regularly in major hospitals all over the world under anesthetic and with a muscle relaxant for partial paralysis during the procedure. The convulsive part is the key term as it is not the amount of current going in that is important, but the waveform (delivered to the right position) as that is what triggers the seizure which is what is therapeutic, like a Reset or Reboot button for the brain.
A regular heartbeat is achieved using a pacemaker. Again it is the pattern and rhythm rather than the sheer amount of current. Having more is not necessarily better.
Anyway back to 40K, the Motive Force is basically electricity but with an additional mystical layer added on. I suppose one could try to generalize the Motive Force to be Gibbs free energy, the thermoydynamic potential to do work, within the universe.
I'm going to have to look into this Gibbs free energy now too...this thread is already putting me to work lol.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:For me?
It’s a superstitious term of all forms of electrical activity.
To the best of our current knowledge, our Brains and Bodies work on electricity. We can stop hearts from arresting using a defibrillator, then get a regular beat going by CPR. To some degree of possible quackery, mental illnesses are addressed with electroshock therapy.
We’re pretty good at generating it for other purposes too.
Now, strip out all actual proper understanding as we have it now (even mine, which isn’t great in detail or quantity) and you get to the Mechanicus. Add in its superstition, and you get the Motiven Force,
Living things have it. Dead things do not. You can forcibly add it to Living Things, you can forcibly subtract it from Living Things. And in most circumstances, doing so will render is a Dead Thing. We also know Souls absolutely exist in 40K as a setting, adding a further layer.
The Electropriest equipment is clearly meant to work in concert, creating a circuit of destruction to use crude terms. One sooks it up, the other dishes it out. And round and round and round it goes.
But, at the end of the day? The Motive Force is indeed “just” electricity, but with extra bells and whistles.
Hey Mad Doc, I remember you from a fair chunk of my older posts, good to see you again lol. How're you doing?
Yeah...I think I see what you're getting at with the living things vs dead things bit. It kind of is a force of life, bio *or* mechanical. Dead things = rocks just as much as they = bones. Maybe the more interesting question, or challenge, is - if you *had* to say the Motive Force is less just a silly superstition (which is easy to hand-waive and move on from) but is in fact some actual entity or divine will within the universe, what form would that take? Are we talking of something that could basically be the 'Catheric' god?
I suppose the more I think about it, the more I'd like the Motive Force to be more elemental, less actively omnipotent, just to put it more firmly in a place that both 1) isn't the Void Dragon and 2) definitely isn't said Catheric god. I increasingly feel like that's the mystery that the setting is inviting us to solve (maybe the recent-ish Vashtorr stories are clueing us into his tapping into said Motive Force).
But is there room for the Motive Force to be something that is somewhere between, yet still distinctly not, the Void Dragon or the Catheric god...?
I thought motive force was just sort of meant to be a fancy way of saying "energy." Like, all energy. The potential energy in a AA battery, the energy in chemical reactions, etc.
If the energy in dead things doesn't count, then the "vitae" thing strikes me as the next best guess. Think Frankenstein bestowing life to inert matter via a lightning bolt (though that's more of a film invention).
If I wanted to take a stab at a more specific interpretation, I'd probably say it's a way of referring to a system of energy and mechanisms containing that energy that facilitate "work"/movement/intentional patterned movement. So a brain and its electrical impulses have motive force because it's energy being used in a structure. A plasma leak wouldn't have motive force even though energy is in the vicinity of a structure (the thing it's leaking from) because the structure isn't designed to leak plasma and isn't doing "work" as a result of the plasma being spilled. Basically, motive force = an emergent property of energy being used by structures.
But is there room for the Motive Force to be something that is somewhere between, yet still distinctly not, the Void Dragon or the Catheric god...?
I know that not a ton is known about it, but there's weirdness like C'tan "magic" and enuncia that seem to basically be "materium magic." So if nothing else, there's unexplored space with that sort of thing. But I don't think GW is in a hurry to explore that territory.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Machine Spirits seem intrinsically linked to my mind.
We smelly hoomans have energy, thought and awareness. A Machine spirit has the same, but with the last two more restricted by design. If you remove the energy from both, they become inert.
But, a machine spirit can have the energy added back, and be up and running. And so, to a certain mind, are perhaps superior to human spirits, which once switched off can’t be switched back on again - but the squishy bits can have machinery added, and reanimated just without the original spirit thing.
And so Motive Force may not be a single thing. Rather it’s a concept about what makes something work, and the indelicate removal and theft of it. We know Electro-Priests can rip it from a body, and store it. And if they weren’t such squabbling silly Billys, use that store to empower other things, from machines to themselves.
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It's also probably worth pointing out that it could just be a very loose term even in-universe. Different subfactions of the admech fighting over what "motive force" actually means is very on-brand for their religion-based-on-ignorance theme they have going on.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
It’s definitely tricky to get into the right mindset.
Currently, we have a greater understanding of science and technology than the Mechanicus. Yet, we need only look at even the basic stuff (like a Lasgun), to see that their technology is still centuries ahead of us. They just…..don’t understand it.
Their superstition is hard to shake, because when you’ve used the same prayers and incense and mantras for millennia, and the stuff you apply those to then works? It’s clearly because of the prayers, incense and mantras.
Motive Force might, once upon a time, have been a carefully defined thing. But with true knowledge and understanding atrophied beyond belief? Who knows what that was. Not the Mechanicus, I’ll tell you that for nowt.
We even see language drifting and redefining itself in real time, right now. Usually it starts as slang, but eventually becomes all official and in dictionaries and that. And as some words are created afresh, some fall entirely by the wayside and out of use. What might happen to the same over the existence of the Mechanicum and Mechanicus? Because, remember, despite the rebranding? It predates the Imperium as a singular institution.
Which all means this sort of topic is super interesting and tricky. And I ageee with Wyldhunt. It may very well mean different things to different areas of specialism within the Mechanicus.
We’ve then the ongoing impact of the STC, the salvation of mankind, and kinda the root cause of its stagnation. Intended to give any outgoing colony fleet more than a fighting chance of surviving and thriving on any world they might find. Yet, in doing so? They over achieved. Those making use of them became reliant on them, the mere existence of such a marvellous machine seemingly supplanting all need for us to learn anything. You got a problem? Tell the STC, and it’ll give you the solution. Some you need to build yourself from scratch, some will give you a kit to build, others still churn out the finished product, possibly akin to an Industrial Replicator. You don’t need to how any of it works. It just does.
Have a society raised on that for even a few generations, then take it away entirely? And it’s a steep, slippery slope to ruin.
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I was under the impression it's meant to be Electromagnetic force, just wrapped up in the superstition of the Mechancius to make out it's some mystical thing.
Quite often i see people talk about the things the Mechanicus talks about like "motive force" and "machine spirits" and such in a way that makes out that they are what the Mechanicus thinks they are, making the Mechanicus outright correct. I find that quite odd, really - they're meant to be a backwards, illogical, superstition tech-cult operating on rote and ritual, who don't really understand things, whereas that would be making them basically the only group in the galaxy to be correct about everything and it's everyone else that's completely wrong, which i really don't think is meant to be their theming at all.
Machine Spirits appear to be some form of AI. Quite how intelligent isn’t clear.
For instance, the car I inherited from my Dad has self parking (which is a blessing!). It works out where it’ll fit, and how it will fit. But I still need to work the pedals and gears. So it does have a form of AI there. And we see similar things in 40K.
Typically, it’s meant to work with the crew, and shouldn’t really have any fully autonomous behaviour. But some do. Landraiders are noted as having particularly strong Machine Spirits, and have limited autonomy. Knights and Titans require a human interface, and said human has to subdue that. If they don’t, the Machine Spirit can run riot.
It may also just refer to Programming. The rules that dictate how a Thing works. And the rest is filled in by superstition, given the complete lack of true understanding.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Machine Spirits appear to be some form of AI. Quite how intelligent isn’t clear.
For instance, the car I inherited from my Dad has self parking (which is a blessing!). It works out where it’ll fit, and how it will fit. But I still need to work the pedals and gears. So it does have a form of AI there. And we see similar things in 40K.
Typically, it’s meant to work with the crew, and shouldn’t really have any fully autonomous behaviour. But some do. Landraiders are noted as having particularly strong Machine Spirits, and have limited autonomy. Knights and Titans require a human interface, and said human has to subdue that. If they don’t, the Machine Spirit can run riot.
It may also just refer to Programming. The rules that dictate how a Thing works. And the rest is filled in by superstition, given the complete lack of true understanding.
What Machine spirits are, at least when there is something there, has been explained already. It's a device that gets installed, literally called a "machine spirit", which is a combination of organic and machinery.
You can even see it labelled in the old Land Raider diagram:
Item 2 is "M32 Cyclops class machine spirit".
The Weird thing with Rynn's Might wasn't that it was capable of operating on its own, it's that the Machine Spirit just got so angry it wouldn't stop fighting the Orks.
The confusion over the whole idea comes from the seperate-but-similar superstition where the Mechancius believes all tech, both theirs and alien, has a mystical entity attached to it that they also call a "machine spirit". But that's something that as far as i'm aware has at no point been any actual tangible evidence to show it exists beyond them just thinking it does.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2025/06/02 17:54:20
From a programmer's perspective, what the AdMech would consider a 'machine spirit' could be as simple as a bunch of copy-n-paste IF-THEN-ELSE structures, up to something like ChatGPT that can almost pass a Turing test. Part of me wonders what (if anything) the AdMech would make of discovering the Unix epoch (which must have overflowed at least a couple of times already in 40k). Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky includes the idea that most programming in the far future is really like code archeology, where you find the snippet you need for the logic you want and just patch that into whatever you're working on. AdMech certainly has some of those vibes.
Like the OP I find it interesting to consider the Motive Force as being something deeper and more fundamental than just electromagnetism--but as noted, even if it were a fundamental unifying force no one in the 42nd Millenium would know that it meant let alone how it worked. Theoretical Physics isn't something I think anyone in-universe comprehends--except as a heretical practice.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I was under the impression it's meant to be Electromagnetic force, just wrapped up in the superstition of the Mechancius to make out it's some mystical thing.
Quite often i see people talk about the things the Mechanicus talks about like "motive force" and "machine spirits" and such in a way that makes out that they are what the Mechanicus thinks they are, making the Mechanicus outright correct. I find that quite odd, really - they're meant to be a backwards, illogical, superstition tech-cult operating on rote and ritual, who don't really understand things, whereas that would be making them basically the only group in the galaxy to be correct about everything and it's everyone else that's completely wrong, which i really don't think is meant to be their theming at all.
The Mechanicus paradigm is an animistic religious paradigm to explain their technology. They may know that bathing a device with moving parts in lubricant oil helps it function better and be less prone to breakdown, but they interpret this to mean the machine spirit likes to take oil baths and then doesn't get angry. The final end point is the same: a device that is maintained but the Mechanicus view this through the lens of animism.
There are other ideas that the Mechanicus can also play with such as the great Chain of Being. The Mechanicus at least of my local homebrew forgeworld believe in this concept and so engage in mass production as a holy activity since it elevates base raw materials into things of higher refinement and purpose (thus moving them higher on the Chain), and the ultimate elevation and ascension would be for devout followers to ascend to join with the Machine God. The replacement of body parts with "more perfect" machine parts is rationalized in terms of this.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I was under the impression it's meant to be Electromagnetic force, just wrapped up in the superstition of the Mechancius to make out it's some mystical thing.
Quite often i see people talk about the things the Mechanicus talks about like "motive force" and "machine spirits" and such in a way that makes out that they are what the Mechanicus thinks they are, making the Mechanicus outright correct. I find that quite odd, really - they're meant to be a backwards, illogical, superstition tech-cult operating on rote and ritual, who don't really understand things, whereas that would be making them basically the only group in the galaxy to be correct about everything and it's everyone else that's completely wrong, which i really don't think is meant to be their theming at all.
I think motive force is a catch all term but mostly covered by what we know as electromagnetic force. It’s their simplistic way of interrupting what they don’t understand in a religious contact.
And I agree it’s irksome when people seem to miss the satire and irony in the setting like this. The laws of physics in 40K are the same as here and now, there’s the added warp aspect but machines and general principle all work the same. It’s the people in setting that don’t get it.
A water purifier doesn’t have a spirit. Bad tempered one in setting are just crap and breaks a lot, (agree it gets confusing when you have a specific bit of kit called a “machine spirit” but that is very different from the concept of the machine spirit in all machines).
There’s also that they can achieve things which defy physics as we currently understand that field. Such as Grav weapons, Anti-Grav plating, the yield in a Lasgun magazine etc.
That those now quite staggeringly ignorant of the underlying principles can still churn that stuff out is a testament to the magnificence, and the dangers, of the STC.
It also means the Motive Force as a concept may well encapsulate concepts we are currently ignorant of.
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Like the OP I find it interesting to consider the Motive Force as being something deeper and more fundamental than just electromagnetism--but as noted, even if it were a fundamental unifying force no one in the 42nd Millenium would know that it meant let alone how it worked. Theoretical Physics isn't something I think anyone in-universe comprehends--except as a heretical practice.
Exactly. I don't at all mind where it is in the lore, something that's alluded to and not made super explicit. But that novel I cited in the OP (Fire Made Flesh) is something I'd encourage everyone here to give a read, focusing on the character Sol. It's what has really got me thinking about this. It has pried open the possibility, and in 40k - if you believe in it, it tends to exist. It's practically one of the themes of 40k. So like I said, I feel like we're invited to explore this idea and not just shoo it away with expressions of 'that's not real'.
I'll just come out and ask since it would be really interesting then, and it is a long shot - has anyone here read that novel?
Like the OP I find it interesting to consider the Motive Force as being something deeper and more fundamental than just electromagnetism--but as noted, even if it were a fundamental unifying force no one in the 42nd Millenium would know that it meant let alone how it worked. Theoretical Physics isn't something I think anyone in-universe comprehends--except as a heretical practice.
in 40k - if you believe in it, it tends to exist.
I don't think this can definitively be stated. The 2 main examples we have, the Emperor's powers and the Tau'Va Warp entity, are by no means something conclusive - we don't know what's actually caused them and they may actually be a case of the "belief" simply being ancillary.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/06/10 18:40:03
