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Any good ideas here?

I've been playing my thousand sons in a cityfight (now CoD) Vogen campaign.

So far I've just been using the models I have and been playing only 1000 point games.

So I generally have:

LT

sons with super pimp champ

9 flamers

defiler

pred (AC/HB)

I'm thinking, particularly because I have orks to fight, that I should try a couple of mutated dreads with the warp flame on them (anything they fight in hth takes a Sd6 AP4 hit before it swings).

Any other ideas?

Screamers might be good for some quick objective grabbing.

Sons in a Medicare building would be sick.

I have played Dreds. with CWF before, and it is the ultimate horde killer. The beutiful thing about it is that is effects every model. SO no matter how many Gaunts, Stealers, Orks, Aspects, you fight, you will clear out most of the unit before they even fight.

Which power are you giving the super pimp champ? I can actually see Wind of Chaos (the super template thing) being pretty darn effective in cityfight against orcs or power armor. Are you taking thralls for extra shots since you don't need to rush anywhere?

I think TS will do fairly well in the city fight areas since they aren't slowed down any more than normal.

They'd be nearly invincible with a medicae facility.....I guess this is the only case where a model with 2 wound has a lot going for it...HA! Capt K

I've been giving the LT and the Aspiring champ just gift, focus, and 4 thralls. It helps eliminate those fists/claws that hurt so much.

I've built a prince with stature and wings to use wind, but obviously he can't use thralls. He should be good for general purposes and isn't horribly expensive.

Hey Ed,

No Chosen of Ahriman? 

Vale,

JohnS

At some point I should run the math on how effective gift actually is. I normally treat it as a novelty power, but I'm suspecting it's quite a bit better than I've been giving it credit for.

P.S. - check the Viable Chaos Lords thread for lord configs, Tzeentch doesn't give any raw MEq-slaying abilities, so the unmarked lords will suffice

not when playing thousand sons he won't.

And the flamer template is awefully nice at killing Meqs

Every Chaos Player should say this to him/herself over and over agian.

Deamonic Speed is always better than Deamonic Flight.

When I played Thousand Sons, I used both and for your Statured Lord if you are not taking speed, you are asking to never make it into CC.

Wind of Chaos whould be takin almost all the time in TS squads. In my CoD experiance, flamer templates are quite nasty.

And how am I supposed to use the flamer template with daemonic speed again?

Easy Ed, you move into a position to assault. Then once that is done you are close enough to use it. Just because you have the power doesn't mean it has to be used every turn. Manuevering first to get an early assault will help set you up for later shots with it. Mahu is right, nothing beats daemonic speed...nothing. Capt K

Posted By mauleed on 07/02/2006 12:50 AM
And how am I supposed to use the flamer template with daemonic speed again?

The biggest down side to any Flamer Template armed Sorceror is that the best way to shoot them, is pull your casualties in a way to avoid the charge. With Speed, you are never out of charge range. Ask Captk, I took down a full unit of terminators with my Deamonic Speed Prince armed with WoC and a Dreadaxe, all in one turn.

You can never, ever, ever, beat Speed. Always take it versus Flight.

not when playing thousand sons he won't.

As in, his results will suffice with an added Mark of Tzeentch, as Tzeentch does not grant any abilities that increase raw MEq killing power, any entry on the list plus the Mark of Tzeentch is the optimal Tzeentch-marked lord of the appropriate point value.

Sorry, I'm unconvinced. I can't imagine how speed on a model with a flamer template makes sense. Perhaps you should explain it better.

Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 6:07 AM
Sorry, I'm unconvinced. I can't imagine how speed on a model with a flamer template makes sense. Perhaps you should explain it better.

Ok, say you get within charge range of a unit. Before you charge you fire your nice little Wind of Chaos Template. Now remember, Wind of Chaos is not a flamer, at least with a flamer you get your usual 3+ save, against WoC you don't, so the kill potential on Wind of Chaos is much higher on MEQ's. Say you cause 2 Casualties. Any good player will simply remove the 2 closest to your model, thus denying you the charge. Next turn, all those lovely heavy weapons are pounding your DP.

Now with Speed, your assault range is greater than that of your Flamer template. Therefore, there is no possible way for you to kill to many where you are denied the charge.

Besides, you do not have to use the Template every turn, with its short range you probably won't anyway. Just spend the first turn moving forward behind cover, then next turn charge, massacre into or WoC then charge the next unit rinse and repeat. In CoD, not many armies will be equiped to handle that.

I have played it both ways (Speed and Flight) and Speed will always, always, be better. Flight may have been better in 3rd Edition, but now there is no question.

What explanation do you need to be convinced Ed? I'm not really sure I follow. Okay, so your dude has speed and WoC. So correct me if I am wrong, but you are concerned that with speed and a shooting weapon, your Prince will only be able to use one or the other? I guess what we are trying to say is that it is okay, since the speed will allow you to manuever into a position to strike with it in later turns. Better because the rate of movement is faster than flight. Better because you can get a first turn assault. So again it's better than flight...even if you may not shoot WoC every turn. My suggestion is to play test both in CoD and see. Theoryhammer goes out the window in those games, trust me. I've played enough CoD games now to see that things you would think seem better actually aren't in most cases. In this case however, speed is king. Capt K

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

Mahu, let's look at your example: I've got flight, yet somehow I moved so that I could only get (or kill) 2 models under the template. How many models do I get under the template without flight?

And you're assuming that I'll want to be in hth? Why would I want to charge an IC into hth with a squad with a powerfist? (unless I've just killed half the models in it with a flamer template?) Sure, there will be some units unable to deal with the prince in hth, but not many in a well composed marine CoD army.

No, I want to fly around, flame what I can and only pounce on very weakened squads that I can kill in one or two rounds of hth, before the powerfist removes me from the board.

Winds of chaos is one of the best possible anti-marine guns in the game in CoD, but you guys are arguing that I should ignore it and jump into hth. Makes no sense to me.

I'm just not convinced speed is terribly worthwhile compared to flight in CoD.

I'm with mauleed on this one, why jump where you will get shot? If he didn't want to be stuck in the open and there is no powerfist for some reason why wouldn't he just not fire the template if he is worried and charge instead? The maveuverability of flight allows you to get within a few inches a lot easier than speed in the case of lots o' terrain anyway so the charge range shouldn't be as far.

IC with flight rerolls dangerous terrain tests if he does take them, can jump out of terrain 12" instead of rolling to get out, and can probably get close enough to charge an inch or two at most so that he can't fail a charge unless he kills everything in the squad. Flight is meta-game better for CoD in my opinion also.

This comment has sort of gotten my goat:

Theoryhammer goes out the window in those games, trust me

In response, I say if you have practical experience that you think refutes the theoryhammer, but can't put it into words that actually refutes it, then likely your practical experience is not representative of what's actually likely (or you're just really bad at communicating, in which case why discuss further anyway?)

Theoryhammer is what this board is all about, and it's why some people always do better than others: they have a better understanding of how theoryhammer needs to be applied to realhammer.

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

Don't you think that was unneccessary?

Mahu, let's look at your example: I've got flight, yet somehow I moved so that I could only get (or kill) 2 models under the template. How many models do I get under the template without flight?

I was working on the assumtion that you cover 4 under the template with a 50% chance of causing casualties. If you are trying to take a building, this is probably what you would get (most players split a unit between levels to limit the effectiveness of template weapons). Besides the more models you cover the more casualties you cause, meaning the more opportunity you give to your opponent to deny you the charge.

And you're assuming that I'll want to be in hth? Why would I want to charge an IC into hth with a squad with a powerfist? (unless I've just killed half the models in it with a flamer template?) Sure, there will be some units unable to deal with the prince in hth, but not many in a well composed marine CoD army.

Well, you have two options, either stay out in the open to be shot to death or take the slight possibility that a powerfist will kill you. Considering the Powerfist needs 5's to hit you (with Stature) , I would take my chances in assault.

No, I want to fly around, flame what I can and only pounce on very weakened squads that I can kill in one or two rounds of hth, before the powerfist removes me from the board.

The problem with the flight/WoC combination is that you are either landing in the open or taking a Dangerous Terrain test landing in the Ruins. In order to use your WoC template, the only time you get any coverage is to land outside a building. Just asking for shooty death. With speed you are entering with free Move through Cover, you could even move from one ruin to the next in a single assault move.

Winds of chaos is one of the best possible anti-marine guns in the game in CoD, but you guys are arguing that I should ignore it and jump into hth. Makes no sense to me.

Nobody said to ignor it. We are just showing you that there are better ways to use it.

In the end, your Prince is not Scoring anyway. His best use is to chew through and clear out buildings that your actual scoring units can take. Victory points only matter in one mission in CoD, so mobility is key on capturing buildings. Deamon Princes are best to stop advances or at least hold the advance off for long enough to take them with the rest of your army.

Note to self: don't waste time replying to Mahu's posts in the tactics forums.

You know when you are making a point that Mauleed can't refute when he denies your existance.

I have said my piece about it, if you are so stubborn to not even try it in a friendly game, than that is your loss. Me, I will be happy with my victories.

Now wasn't this thread about Thousand Sons in general, not the stupid arguement it has become?

Flight vs speed matters for TS since the disc of Tzeentch give you demonic flight

Mahu, did you note that the IC's get to reroll their dangerous terrain test making flight a lot less lethal for them to use? They also get move through cover for free as you noted, but jump packs don't have to make those tests to begin with unless they are charging. The only negative you are focusing on is problems charging after using the WoC which as we have pointed out isn't going to be a problem if you don't want it to be since you don't have to charge and you don't have to use the power.

Mahu, I see your point, I just think it's stupid. I'm not inclined to try things that are stupid on their face in actual games.

Well golly gosh, I got your goat. Huh. Yeah this may be a forum for theoryhammer, but there is no substitute for actual game play...i.e applying said tactics in the game. If you think that I can't communicate it well enough that's fine, maybe I can't, but I can tell you straight up that speed is better in CoD, because I've used it and it works extremely well (playtesting shows it). Furthermore why the hell are you even afraid of PF in the first place? 99% of the time you will clear your kill zone (assuming you use speed to manuever into a postion to hang the powerfists). Secondly, you are immune to instakills from them. Thirdly, your lord in CoD is essentially a throw away unit anyways since CoD is a game of attrition. Send him to do as much damage as possible, while preserving your scoring units. If you claim to have found the "ultimo TS combo", then why even bother asking for other people's opinions? My next question is this: Have you even tried using this combo in games? Either one? Speed or Flight? Which was better? So before you berate the other posters (including me), why not try it out in a CoD game? Then come back here with your findings. Additionally, I believe Speed is cheaper points-wise anyways so that is a bonus. Capt K PS: What "gets my goat" is your comment about forgeting why you win so many games (insert inflated ego here)...really ...Well did you think that maybe that it's probably because you face the same people mostly? Or maybe because you haven't really traveled that far out of your comfort zone in the East? We're already planning for Adepticon 2007 Ed...any chance that you will heed the call in the Gladiator? Maybe a little bit more humbleness and a little less "My opinion matters more because I seldom lose...." would go a long way. I seldom lose games myself, but I don't use that to legitmize my point of view as some form of lame "street cred".

Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 11:54 AM
Mahu, I see your point, I just think it's stupid. I'm not inclined to try things that are stupid on their face in actual games.

That has all the intellect of a school yard bully telling a kid that "he's stupid" because you couldn't argue with him.

Please grow up.

Note to Snoogums. I am aware of that statured models don't take dangerous terrain tests. But daemonic speed still is king. Capt K

CaptK, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Speed is better because you've used it and we should trust you

b. I shouldn't point out how stupid that is until I fly to Chicago and beat you there?

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

Well, you have two options, either stay out in the open to be shot to death or take the slight possibility that a powerfist will kill you. Considering the Powerfist needs 5's to hit you (with Stature) , I would take my chances in assault.

First, a MEq fist needs 4's to hit a DP. So any squad with a fist will need to be thined out before you even think of assaulting, as three rounds of fist attacks will likely do him in (and one round there's 5/6 chance of giving up half VPs). Hence the use of WoC pre charge.

Secondly, were talking about CoD, correct? I doubt mauleed has to worry about his prince getting shot to death very often, unless he's been severely outplayed.