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I don't have the new codex yet. I am wondering if the Scouts special rule Pathfinders have is conferred to the Devilfish transport they have to purchase. Or if there is a rule that lets the Devilfish stay in reserves and the pathfinders can start on the board.

This was hashed out in a 11 page thread a little while back, here's the link:  http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&view=topic&forumid=15&postid=58860

Pathfinders scout, the devilfish does not. Screwed isnt it?

Someone mentioned a Spanish FAQ, does anyone have a link to this? I looked on the spanish website and couldn't find it.

Found it! My spanish is pretty rough, maybe you could help out here Dave.

P. Un transporte de tropas Mantarraya incluido en una escuadra de rastreadores tau, ¿puede efectuar un movimiento de explorador antes del inicio de la partida?

R. No, la escuadra está sujeta a la regla de exploradores, pero el vehículo no. Los rastreadores pueden usar el movimiento especial de explorador solamente si no inician la partida a bordo del Mantarraya.

The bigger question is, WHY IS THERE A SPANISH FAQ AND NOT AN ENGLISH ONE!?!

Keep in mind this is bastardised spanish for most of my time in spain was spent smoking hash on rooftops. However I took the spanish word for word and reworded it into an english phrase. ENJOY!

Can the Devilfish troop transport (Mantarraya must be the name for Devilfish) included in a unit of Pathfinders make a scout move before the beginning of the game?

No, the unit is subject to the scout move rule but not the vehicle. The Pathfinders can only use the extra scout move if they don't begin the game in the Devilfish.

My conclusion...in escalation the devilfish cannot start on the board, the Pathfinders are inside the Devilfish and therefore also start off board. In Alpha and Gamma the Pathfinders may be deployed out side of the Devilfish and then make the scout move. Or disembark from the fish and then make the scout move.

Posted By Fabulous on 07/03/2006 8:44 PM
Pathfinders scout, the devilfish does not. Screwed isnt it?

 

except the fact they rules say otherwise. you cannot place a choice from the FOC on the table in pieces you must place the whole thing. if we used your opinion pathfinders are scouts that can never scout because they have to have a transport vehicle.

 

with no inference of intent the rules state clearly

 

the unit issue

p24 full quote of the rules in question

unit name:

in addition to the name this may also show a limitation on the maximum number of choices you can make of that unit type (0-1, for example)

 

number/team/squad ETC...:

this shows the number of models in the unit, or the number of models you may take for one choice from the force organization chart. often this is a variable amount in which case it shows the minimum and maximum unit size.

special rules:

this is where you'll find any special rules tha apply to the unit

end quote 

 

the unit name in the FOC is pathfinder team(no real question there)

rather you call a pathfinder team a team/unit or a squad is irrelevant. it is a semantic descriptor that means the same thing as per the entry on page 24

 

now breaking it down-the first part says this is the number of models  in the team/unit/ etc...

the second half says or the number of models you MAY take. this does not in any way conflict with the first part since we know that we have a minimum of 4 (required as the number of models in  unit at minimum size as per part one) but may take up to 8 pathfinder (shas'la) infantry models and a single pathfinder assigned devilfish per 1 pathfinder team entry in the FOC . which is incidently explaned in the 3rd part of the rules entry.

 

because of these

the special rules that apply to the unit-

as per the rules unit is a semantic term interrchangable with team/squad etc... and we know the unit/team/squad etc.. consists of a single FA choice in the FOC for tau at minimum/maximum  4-8 infantry pathfinders(shas'la) and it's required pathfinder devilfish troop transport.

 

since the devilfish is listed as part of the team/unit/squad etc.. it does benefit from the scout special rules. it is a transport that is a vehicle and acts in accordance with the normal vehicle and trransport rules found in the core rulebook with 2 extra abilities listed in the tau dex.

1.the ability to scout as per the special rules that apply to the team/squad/unit and

2. the marker beacon which is a special piece of vehicle equipment for pathfinder assignd fish.

 

except the fact they rules say otherwise. you cannot place a choice from the FOC on the table in pieces you must place the whole thing. if we used your opinion pathfinders are scouts that can never scout because they have to have a transport vehicle.

Huh? Why can't you place a choice from the FOC on the table in pieces? An Imperial Guard command platoon can have its command section mounted in a Chimera, several infantry fire support squads and Sentinel Walkers which come with the Scout USR. They're all a single choice from the FOC.

"A Command Platoon counts as a single unit for army selection, deployment and reserves purposes." (Codex: IG, pg39)

In an Escalation mission, the Chimera mounted command section would remain off-board, while the infantry and Sentinels start on board.

In a mission not allowing the HQ to start on board (i.e. Scouting Engagement), the Sentinel walkers would still start because they possess the Scout USR.

In both these situations, a single FOC choice has been split. Why wouldn't Pathfinders start on board in Escalation due to Scout USR, while their accompanying Devilfish (which does not have Scout) remains in Reserve?

Um.... wouldn't a spanish FAQ be just as binding as an english one? I don't see how much more argueing there is to do on this.

We know there are differences between the rules and probably codexes and FAQ docs in different languages.

How could a Spanish FAQ relating to the Spanish version of the rules, be binding on a non-Spanish speaker using a non-Spanish version of the rules?

I see what you are saying Kilkrazy, but even in english the rules lean towards not letting the 'fish scout (although as I have pointed out before, there is no such thing as a 'pathfinder' anywhere in the codex so ya) It is definately arguable that the 'fish is part of the unit but hardly rock solid.

As much as I am going to be flamed for this, I have taken to calling the rulez boyz a couple of times on things that are unclear and if I get 4 of the same answer I figure that is probably the best way to PLAY it (not the way that the rules are, but the way it ought to be played)

An issue with Dakka that I have is that it seems that whatever becomes the most popular answer given by those who are best at shouting other people down becomes 'the rule' even if it is dumb.

The Spanish FAQ may well be correct -- I'm not arguing one way or the other -- but if it is, it does not simplify the situation for native English speaking players. GW should issue FAQs for each language simultaneously, after checking that they all agree with each other.

LOL, I think you are preachin' to the choir on that one. I find it amazing that there are Spanish FAQ's for TONS of things that have not yet been done in english (FOTA anybody?)

The ability to split up an FOC slot for deployment is allowed for IG because the IG codex says you can.  Were that not there, then you couldn't.

No corresponding langauge allowing FOC slots to split up for deployment is included in the pathfinder entry (or anywhere in the tau codex to my knowledge).  Therefore, you fall back on the rules in the BBB, which is to say... no splitting up FOC for the tau.  So you can't split up a pathfinder from their devilfish to deploy at separate times.

Wow, where pathfinders used to be fun to play even though probably not really worth the points, now they are almost a liability... lameity lame lame lame.

All it means is that the people running GW Spain are much more dedicated and professional than the people running GW UK, US, Canada. I can't imagine it is a different game, do people in Spain play Football/Soccer differently in Spain? No, they just call it Futbol. I would take a Spanish FAQ for a ruling as fast as I would take an English one. These FAQS take almost no time at all to compile and post on their website. It offends me that they haven't dealt with them already. Its no wonder GW is a sinking ship. So my stance is in Escalation the Devilfish cannot start on the board and since the Pathfinders are inside the Devilfish they are SOL and are in reserves as well.

There's no way you can enforce a Spanish FAQ on an English player. He simply cannot read the FAQ.

Technically, you shouldn't be able to enforce the Spanish FAQ on speakers of any language, even Spanish, as the FAQ isn't issued by the Design Studio and therefore isn't written by those who wrote the rules in the first place.

Not that it means anything to anyone here but I just called the GW Canada Rulez Boyz and they also say without any equivocation or looking up of the rules that the Pathfinder 'fish does not scout.

but even in english the rules lean towards not letting the 'fish scout

did you even READ the rules, i posted them right there for you.

the english rules in the tau dex clearly state that the pathfinder team which includes thier fish trransport beneifit from the scout special rule

Dood, I'm just going to bow out on this one and not scout my PF 'fish.

GW's "official" rules dispute resolution procedure makes no reference to desgin studio staff but does make reference to errata documents (FAQs). So technically, you can enforce an FAQ on someone, if they will accept it. People who won't accept a clearly written, easily understandable FAQ that makes sense, are bad sports. English people who can't read Spanish would not fall into that category.

What about Canadian people who speak english?

*runs away shouting* "Imperialist Colonialist Scum!"

The ability to split up an FOC slot for deployment is allowed for IG because the IG codex says you can. Were that not there, then you couldn't.

No corresponding langauge allowing FOC slots to split up for deployment is included in the pathfinder entry (or anywhere in the tau codex to my knowledge). Therefore, you fall back on the rules in the BBB, which is to say... no splitting up FOC for the tau. So you can't split up a pathfinder from their devilfish to deploy at separate times.

As I desperately try to avoid this thread turning into a repeat of the last one...

KiMonarrez: Where in the IG Codex does it say you can split up a FOC for deployment? "Each sub-unit may deploy or arrive in a different location and act independently" (Codex: IG, pg39) would seem to state that the Command Platoon can place each of it's subunits in a different place, and do not need to all be placed in coherency with each other. It doesn't say that they may arrive at different times.

A Command Platoon counts as a single unit for Reserves purposes. If part of the Platoon is in Reserve due to Escalation or whatever, how is it a single Reserve unit?

Also, "When deploying a single chart choice, the units that make up that choice may deploy separately from one another if you wish." (BGB, pg81) A Pathfinder Team is one chart choice, but it's made up of a Pathfinder infantry squad and a Devilfish, which are two seperate units. The infantry Pathfinders may deploy due to Scout USR, but their Devilfish may not, as it does not have Scout.

Also, "When deploying a single chart choice, the units that make up that choice may deploy separately from one another if you wish." (BGB, pg81)

yep i can stick my fish in one corner of my deployment zone and my dismounted troops in another, does not change the fact that they must come in on the same reserve roll TOGETHER.

 

 

 

A Pathfinder Team is one chart choice, but it's made up of a Pathfinder infantry squad and a Devilfish,

correct

 

which are two seperate units. The infantry Pathfinders may deploy due to Scout USR, but their Devilfish may not, as it does not have Scout.

incorrect

they are one choice from the FOC and must both be deployed on the table in the same reserve roll, even though the pathfinders may be dismounted and away from the fish.

in  the tau dex i previously quoted the pathfinder devilfish is part of the "team" and all parts of the "team" in the entry benefit from the special rule as per the RAW in the tau dex.

the special rule is th ability to scout. so yes the fish asssigned as part of  the team can scout as per the RAW

Special rules, such as scout, override general rules in many instances.

We have a general rule: "When deploying units or rolling for their arrival, the contents of one box on the Force Organisation chart is considered to be a single entity."

Very solid general rule.

However, the specific rule for Scouts: "any Scouts in the army may be deployed at the start of a battle"

This is a specific rule: Scouts may be deployed at the start of a battle
There is even an example included: "even in scenarios where they could not normally be deployed."

Letting the BGB refute further: "If you are using a mission variant with the escalation special rule, then your Scouts would set up at the start of the battle instead of being placed in reserve."

A unit with scout gets 3 seperate clauses that allow it to start on the table regardless of restrictions.

Scout does have an asterisk with it though, indicating that the rule is lost if joined by an independent character. Shall we maybe try to argue that the Devilfish is an independent character so the Pathfinders lose the scout USR? Because otherwise they have it, and they start on the table if you wish.

So if the spanish faq goes global, it's likely during escalation you will see the Devilfish off the table, with the pathfinder shas'ui starting on with a scout move. 

It goes a little something like this:
-Escalation rule puts Pathfinders and Dedicated transport in reserve.
-Scout overrides and allows Pathfinders only to deploy at the start of the battle.
-FOC is split, general rule is broken by a specific rule, welcome to 40k.


On the topic of guard, the guard faq allows Light infantry equipped units to infiltrate even if the rest of the platoon does not have the USR. No further exceptions are made for drop troops, escalation etc. This is a sticky issue with guard as well.

A unit with scout gets 3 seperate clauses that allow it to start on the table regardless of restrictions.

pathfinders get a 4th seperate clause that allows them to start on the table with thier transport

because the special rules in the tau dex apply to the unit they are listed for. pathfinders get scout, since thier fish is part of the unit it also gets scout as per the RAW

Scout does have an asterisk with it though, indicating that the rule is lost if joined by an independent character. Shall we maybe try to argue that the Devilfish is an independent character so the Pathfinders lose the scout USR? Because otherwise they have it, and they start on the table if you wish.

i'd laugh my arse off if somebody tried that argument

 

and the spanish FAQ means nothing until i see it re-iterated on the GW US or UK sites.  

Oh God, not this again.

Look, leaving intent out of it altogether (which is probably for the best) the RAW clearly states that the Pathfinders get the Scout USR and their Devilfish does not. In Escalation games, the whole unit would start off table as all non-infantry units must. There is no division of squads/units/whatever within a FOC selection, save for the IG Codex (in terms of Chimera-mounted squads and the Light Infantry doctrine).

Mughi3 is totally wrong. Read the previous thread on this subject to see just how wrong he is. There's no need for anyone (even me, so I won't) to add anything further to this topic. It's all be said before.

Mughi3 is totally wrong. Read the previous thread on this subject to see just how wrong he is. There's no need for anyone (even me, so I won't) to add anything further to this topic. It's all be said before.

the hell i am

i have only used the RAW, the COMPLETE RAW i might add

   it clearly says that the special rule apllies to the unit in the entry, the unit in the entry for pathfinders in the tau FOC includes the fish. therefore the fish as part of the pathfinder team gets the scout special rule.

 

its there in black and white, it is simple and it is clear, there is no plea for intent or common sense. just the RAW

now you can and try to use intent and reason it away, but it is there in the RAW.

if you try to deny letting a player scout his pathfinders and thier fish in escalation or otherwise you are cheating. simple black and white RAW. 

 

besides it's not like it's the first time the tau can do stuff no other army can do, split fire at two different units(target lock upgrade), etc.... 

 

Moz: Sounds just about perfect to me. Thanks for your post explaining what I couldn't in mine.

Mughi3: Unfortunately, I don't see the 4th clause giving Scout to the Devilfish. "Special Rules: This is where you'll find any special rules that apply to the unit" (Codex: Tau Empire, pg24). The unit in this case is the Pathfinder infantry, although the mandatory Devilfish is part of a Pathfinder Team. It cannot be argued that Pathfinder infantry + Pathfinder Devilfish is a single unit, as obviously they are two seperate ones. If the interpretation that Pathfinder infantry + Pathfinder Devilfish = the same unit is taken, then wouldn't the "Unit Type: INFANTRY" also apply to the entire unit, meaning the Pathfinder Devilfish becomes an infantry model? I'm positive that you're not advocating this at all, but your argument that infantry + Devilfish = one unit is directly stating that.

Stu-Rat: Why woudn't Scout (for the Pathfinder infantry only) override the general deployment rule like Moz said?