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So, after a few games with 40 points hand to hand Tyranid Warriors, I have been completely underwhelmed by their performance.  I don't even want to bother with shooty warriors, seeing that you need to upgrade their BS just to hit half of the time.  A real shame too, because the warrior kit is one of my favorite sets ever.  So a simple fix seems in order.

 

Set their base WS, BS and I to 5,3,5 respectively, rather than 4,2,4 and set the base cost to 16.  That way, you can still upgrade them to be as good as Stealers rather than just big Demonettes(sp?).  Also, shooting warriors become usable, with the ability to upgrade to BS 4. 

Thoughts from you all?

bs4 'nids? Are you joking? Tyranids have to pay for bs3 for a very good reason: they are not a shooty army. Sniperfexes and Dakkafexes can offer some very good support, but the core of every Tyranid army should be assualt. I don't know enough about 'nid performance to comment on your other suggestions, but bs2 base is perfectly fine.

T4(5) W2 Sv3+

That's it.

Warriors don't need to be able to shrug off Krak Missile hits. What they need is to be able to shrug off Heavy Bolter hits.

BYE

As far as shootyness is concerned, I think that it isn't too far fetched. Hive Tyrants can get bs4, nothing else can. What is wrong with having two units in the army that could do so? It isn't even as if the unit would be broken with such a change. As it is, to get a decent shooty unit I would have to take a venom cannon and devourers. Deathspitters are right out. A one shot , ap 5 small blast? At bs 3, after upgrade? In my experience(Eldar especially) something like that would never work. I just imagine that warriors should be something to FEAR, a target for reasons other than their synapse control. I had a situation just last game where my rending, scytal, adrenal(I) and extended carapace warriors charged a terminator unit with about ten spinegaunts. If I didn't roll a rend, they didn't even scratch the unit. Heck, one of his termies turned off his powerfist and punched a fresh warrior to death in one round. Why should I even put anything other than the bare minimum on them(to get synapse) when I could get alot more killy death out of twice as many stealers for the same points?

I do use a mixed Nid force so I would really like to use Warriors to some real potential, but they seem to be incredibly points inefficient, especially compared to other synapse options and competing elites units(IE Dakkafexes)

I agree with HMBC, if the point cost remains the same. But allowing Extended Carapace on top of a 3+ save seems wrong - they shouldn't be *that* good.

As another option at current point cost: T4(5), S5, base save 4+ extended carapace upgrade at current cost

Or, keep the base cost and stats the same, but cut all upgrade costs in half.

T5, 4+ save to begin with, upgradable to 3+

I also think all synapse creatures (only the ones with the actual synapse power) should get a 6+ invulnerable, with warp field giving a 4+, and getting a 5-10 point increase.

Why not just allow the bonded exoskeleton biomorph for the toughness and do the 4+ save upgradeable with extended carapace

In any case, I feel like that if I am spending upwards of 35 points a model, he should be able to kill. They way it seems to work is, gaunts are used not to kill their points back, but to help the rest of the force kill that much more. So you need synapse to keep them in line. If you use warriors, you will still arrive later than the gaunts, but simply will not have the raw killing power to pickup the slack, putting more burden on the fewer actually deadly units you could afford to kill more. Combine that with some mediocre durability and the situation is worse. I don't think warriors need to be freakin broodlords in combat or Carnifexes when shot at(not even Tyrant Guard) but they need a boost.

Okay.

You have to start by looking at carapaced 'Stealers, Raveners, and leaping, carapaced ST/RC Warriors. They're all about the same pts per wound. While they're all RC delivery systems, each unit has its niche. 'Stealers have the best number of RC attacks per wound, and their speed is good. Raveners have the next best number of RC attacks/wound, but are clearly the fastest and work really well in small flexible units for combat assistance or objective holding. Warriors have the worst speed (although they're actually pretty close to 'Stealers) and the worst RC attks/wound. HOWEVER, they provide synapse and can be taken in Elites, where there's a lot less competition compared to FA and especially Troops.

If you diversify between these RC platforms, you're going get more out of all of them. Warriors are not a replacement for 'Stealers or Ravs in a balanced list, and neither is the reverse true. Frankly, my h2h Warriors do alright.

Having said this, I think Warriors' proper niche is a mixed shooting/assault role. Without fleet, they don't have anything to do in the shooting phase anyway, so they *should* be shooters. Of course, the problem is that they drastically overpay for the shooting upgrades, so everyone just fields them in a purely h2h role. If you could get a leaping, carapaced, BS3, S5 RC/Dev Warrior for around 40 pts, that'd make them more interesting. I'd be a happy camper, at least.

So my tweaks don't involve armor upgrades or anything like that. Give them BS3 base for the same price (I don't think a BS4 upgrade is necessary) and drop some of those weapon costs. The "slash" costs don't make any sense when you're paying for toxin sacs in the first place.

give my warriors fleet and I would be happier then a pig in.... well you know.

That is all

Just wanted to add that a BS4 tyranid warrior seems alright to me. In fact, I'd like to see a ballistic skill increase for zoanthropes, tyrants, and carnifex too. Tyranids aren't a h2h-only army anymore, and they were never "bad/mediocre shots" in the fluff. The close combat elements in the army were significantly watered down in return for (minor?) boosts in shooting abilities. I almost took it for granted that people knew that. I guess not.

Posted By ThisIsBatCountry on 07/24/2006 8:12 PM

I don't know enough about 'nid performance

No, you don't

I'm also surprised about this stupid new interpretation of the synapse instant-death rule. So apparently we can start splattering warriors with lascannons again? What stupidness is this? Warriors already took two steps backward to get that immunity (lost fleet, higher costs), now they're not even taking that step foward?

Yeah, don't get me started.

I'm probably the only defender of Warriors on this forum, but if that interpretation is made official, I won't show up at a tournament with anything other than a Godzilla list. Don't forget it'll have a major effect on Zoeys. One lascannon wound and they'll be dead too (barring the 6+ inv save).

I'm with the designers on dropping hive nodes and making synapse more important. I really am. But that would make playing horde armies a little too difficult. With Warriors and Zoeys dropping twice as fast, you'd have to spend too many points on synapse creatures, and then won't have enough left for the rest of your army. The extra resilience of Warriors and Zoeys is what made the removal of hive nodes doable.

I sure hope GW listens to us on this, but my confidence is flagging to say the least.

I am not a huge fan of warriors but use them from time to time anyway. Zoanthropes are a staple in my army and if the interpretation is made official there will be even less people who like warriors then there are now and some people questioning thropes. Even if they did rule that way though I would use warriors if they just gave me my fleeting warriors. Maybe a forgeworld model like armorcast had that can transport up the field. What was it like has a capacity of 10 wounds? Thats 2 tooled up fexes or five warriors or tyrant with guard.

Ah screw warriors now just give me a transport!!!

Doesn't anyone feel that warriors became actually more viable after the FAQ?
I mean Zoanthropes ae the ones frequently targeted by high S weaponry because high S weaponry has a low AP which is needed to bypass their
2+ AS. With no Intantkill immunity, shooting Zoanthropes down will be fairly easy. Sure Warriors are also easy to shoot down, but their low AS and T made them perfect mid-S fodder. So, imo, the biggest kick in the crotch was for the Zoanthropes.

Greets
Schepp himself

While Zoeys clearly are getting the shaft the worst in this deal, I dunno how you can say there's any net improvement for Warriors. It just got easier for opponents...now the lascannons that are also good vs. MCs are more effective vs. Warriors. And the HBs that are also good against our Gaunt and 'Stealers are still good against Warriors too.

I think Godzilla lists lose the least. Zoeys are now lascannon fodder, but there's so many good lascannon targets in a Godzilla list that they might get ignored. It's not the same thing for a standard list for which synapse is the weakness that everyone's gonna try and target.

hups...bbad wording on my part...

I meant they more viable than the zoanthropes. I've just read it and realized how it's read.

When the Zoanthropes help with the synapse, that would be the first thing to target.

It's a pity that the new tyranid codex also just tends to be a "some good choices, a lot of medicore/bad choices" codex.
I'm thinking about freezing my melee-tyranid force for some time...maybe starting eldar and stuff or better, i start finishing my other armies.

Greets
Schepp himself