Original Article found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Just_Dave_Ranks_The_Primarchs
I couldn't fit the final 3 into the original article, so here they are. The 3 kings. Actually, the 3 kings and number 5.1. Technically, they're not kings either. No are they real. Nor are-- Oh yeah, the ranking...
3rd: Voice Of An Angel, Face Like He's Been Bobbing For Chips.
Yep. Everybody thought he would be first, but noooo, he's third! Trying to understand me is like a staring contest with the Eye Of Terror...
In bronze place, it's Sanguinius, lord of the Blood Angels and the Emperors favourite daughter.
Actually he's not the Emperors favorite daughter, you are all homophobes! Sanguinius is a legend, the Primarch closest to perfection, the guy who sold his life to save his pops. Whilst of all of the other Primarchs - and even the Emperor - have flaws, Sanguinius seemingly has none.
As various people have noted - Excalibur and Brettila in particular - I'm all about the good guys, the guys with honour and that stand up for what is right and Sanguinius is a symbol for just that. He stood in the face of adversity and death. Humanity was teetering on a knife edge and all the way Sanguinius was there fighting for what's right. He never backed down, he had the gift of foresight, he almost certainly knew he was going to die but he didn't turn away, he went to Horus and did the good thing of trying to get him to back down. Many Primarchs would've just waded in there and got themselves choppity-chopped, Sanguinius gave Horus a chance - not that he needed one - and didn't stoop to his level. So he died, how could he not when his almost equal was imbued with the power of four very angry gods?!
That brief encounter made Sanguinius a legend and a martyr, but he was so much more then that. He stood at the fore-front of the siege of Terra, fighting where the battle was fiercest. He fought the bloodiest battle humanity has known and even with recently-broken legs and inevitable fatigue. He picked up a greater daemon, a blood-thirster, the greatest killing machine known to man and he broke its back over his knee. He's not just an angel, his a Dark Angel. Not in the mopy "I hate everyone but myself" way, but in the utterly cool, utterly bad-ass but utterly loyal way.
Some people say Sanguinius looks like a sissy, I think he looks like an angel. Not an angel as in a girl or someone in a frilly white dress sent down by him upstairs, but a furious beacon of righteousness. Someone who is there to save and inspire those that need saving and inspiring, he would stand up for what is right at all costs. You've got a super-human 9ft+ tall warrior, clad in intricate gold armour, wielding a whacking great sword or spear and flying on white feathered wings. That does not sound like a sissy to me. So what he's got long hair? so what if he has to have a manicure before he opens a can of whup-ass? He looks majestic and angelic. He's not a brute, he's an angel in a brutal and grim-dark future. But he's an angel that goes around killing the enemy rather than telling random people that god's made them pregnant...
Sanguinius stands for everything I believe in from a character such as him; self-sacrifice, honour, courage, loyalty, reason, resolution, endurance, deadliness and much more. He was the one Primarch that was flawless, both in character and action. He was ultimately a dude. An uber-dude. An uber, flying and blood-letting dude.
I can barely write how cool, how noble and how good a guy Sanguinius is, but you'll hopefully get the general jist of it from this.
However, if he's so cool, so perfect and so good a guy, why is he only third? How has space-batman and space-robin (raven to be precise) beaten him?! Well, because all three of them have character and all three of them ultimately sought noble ideals, however whilst the other two struggled to achieve righteousness and a brighter future for the galaxy, for Sanguinus it came easily to him. He was perfect from the start (to the end), whilst Corax and Kurze had to really work at it and learn how to be right and do the best thing.
Sanguinius is a hero, Corax and Kurze are tragic heroes.
5.1st: Now you see me, now you don't!
In at number 5.1, it's Omegon!
Behind Alpharius, but still here. Not in the right place or at the right time. He's sneaky like that. Very sneaky.
Is it in-fact Omegon in 5.1st actually?! Or is this Alpharius and the previous one was Omegon? Are you even seeing this? Are you even reading this? Do you even know what a rhetorical question is?
Or, on the other hand? Am I using this as a delaying tactic to keep hungry dakkites at bay whilst I finish off Kurze and Corax?
Who knows? Who nose? Who noes?
2nd: The Dark Knight.
Yep, in 2nd place it's Konrad Curze, The Night Haunter, The Dark Knight. He was until just tonight going to be first, but things never entirely go his way, eh?
Compared and mocked by many as Batman in space, however, despite me not being a comic-book person, what's wrong with that? I think we can all agree, Batman is cool! Have you seen The Dark Knight?! He's one nasty but heroic bad-ass! Curze is, in many ways, the mirror of this. I for one respect him for this similarity.
So many have established from this thread that ultimately I like someone who does the right thing, stands up for the innocent and against tyrants. Also, some-one who is ultimately cool, deadly, fearsome and most of all, has character. Kurze has all of this (OK, most) in bags!
Fearsome? Hell yes. Deadly? Ask Dorn. Character? You tell me what he would be thinking. Cool? Batman in power armour; most definitely.
Stands up for the innocent and against tyrants? A 0% crime rate says yes. Does the right thing? Well, it's not the forces of the Imperium that crippled the Night Lords, let me put it that way.
He went along a rocky road, he struggled and he messed up, but Curze ultimately did the right thing and redeemed himself in death. After all, death is nothing compared to vindication. Curze helped show the tyranny of the Imperium, allowed the death of a traitor Primarch and crippled the Night Lords.
The story of The Night Haunter is one of redemption, brutality and criminality. Raised on a world of criminals, the Night Haunter quickly became a vigilante, terrorising those who terrorized the innocent. He became righteous and heroic, although he didn't do it in the prettiest or least violent manner, he reduced the crime to nearly 0%. The citizens became incredibly efficient and honest, although they feared him, they respected and loved him. He was benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient and you know who else is supposed to be these things? God, that's who. Although his methods were harsh, they were also fair; he wasn't a tyrant like much of the Imperium and it's leaders, he was a leader and only punished those who did wrong. For which he gains massive respect in my eyes.
That's right, I just compared one incredibly dark fictional character to another incredibly bright fictional character.
When leading his Legion, he continued to employ terror tactics and IMHO, rightly so. They could bring worlds to compliance without a single shot being fired or even turning up in same system. Imagine some-one with an intergalactic, highly lethal stink and that's not just mortarion. The Ultramarines would have to fight for every world the encountered, the Night Lords would often find worlds already in submission, scared at just the idea of the Night Lords. Corax could do a similar thing, except ironically Curze could do it with less blood-shed!
However, these tactics are even more fearsome when used in combat circumstances. If an utterly fearsome image - alongside the demi-god appearance - is combined with the physique and ability of the Adeptus Astartes then they truly could be nigh on unstoppable. Not only do they have the fearsome image, technology and ability, but they also have the velocity (akin to White Scars), so the Night Lords become a fast-moving sledge-hammer that you face with your eyes closed! As ever, Gulliman was largely wrong to criticize the Night Lords; although they don't conform, they are an utterly efficient and ruthless force, great for the intentions of the Great Crusade and possibly endorsed by the Emperor himself.
When it came to the Horus Heresy itself however, the Night Lords were let off their leash and unstoppable and merciless, murdering at will.
They refused to be governed by the Chaos gods however. We all know that the Chaos gods are manipulative pricks and seemingly Curze realised this and used them rather than have them use him. Right now, Abbadon's probably sitting in the background and taking notes.
At this point Curze has gone from vigilante to warlord to tyrant and is now brutally murdering anyone rather than just the immoral. This in itself - whilst not conforming to my and his usual ideals - is still cool and malevolent. Whilst not heroic as I'd prefer him to be, this is still very cool and - as a villian - likeable. See Mortarion's entry for more details. Even in corruption, Curze is cool!
So Kurze has gone from uber-cool, to OK, to uber-cool again and just when he couldn't get any cooler in my eyes, he does the right thing again. He seeks to redeem himself and punish the corrupt, redeeming himself in my eyes and making him 'coolest' of all the Primarchs. Curze sees the corruption within his Legion, he sees the source and he eliminates it. As ever, not through any ordinary or pleasant means, but he prevented the spread of corruption within his Legion and destroyed a world consisting of mainly criminals. I'm not saying he did the right thing, he destroyed a planet and it's inhabitants. However, he did arguably save the inhabitants of Nostramo from a life of misery and he stopped the spread of corruption within his Legion, crippling a traitor Legion and benefiting humanity.
Finally, in the list of all things cool about the Night Haunter; he let himself die, which doesn't sound as good as it actually was. He died, however, for the right reasons, not for a cause he didn't believe in like Alpharius may have, not like a idiot like Ferrus Manus, but for vindication and justice, something Kurze fought for for most of his life.
In the end at-least, Konrad Curze did the right thing for the right reasons. He was right, he had become what he had fought and hated, his legacy had crumbled with a broken world and Legion, whilst what he had fought for (the Imperium) was no more. To sacrifice himself for the right cause is something that only one other Primarch did; Sanguinius (and kind of Corax). However, as I said, Sanguinius didn't go on such a journey as Curze did. Sanguinius did not sacrifice himself for justice and redemption, Sanguinius did not cripple an entire Legion with his actions. Sanguinus still good, no doubt. However, so did Kurze and Kurze learnt a lot more as he did it. Obviously it's bad luck to criticise a dead guy, but Sanguinius is both a fictional character and an angel, I expect I'll be OK.
In at number two, missing out by a whisker and only being relegated to second this very [K]night, it's Konrad Curze, the true bad-ass and Dark Knight of Warhammer 40,000. The guy that could by all accounts be the Primarch with most character and depth, who should by any account be first. However, for me, Corax just pips him to the post.
Death is Nothing Compared To Vindication. Second Is Still A Whole Lot Compared To First.
Konrad Curze is in-fact the true tragic hero.
OK, so now you know the final result. I will however further emphasise how close this was; Until around the tenth ranking, Sanguinius was going to be first. Then until tonight, The Night Haunter was first. If you look back to approximately 8th place, you'll see me say that there I've just decided not to rank who I thought I would be in 8th. That person, that guy who was never originally intended to be 1st, who was originally intended to be 8th, is Corax.
It's an incredibly close run thing, however none of you, nor would I, have been pleased if I made it a joint first!
Anyways, my reasoning:
1st: A Bird In Hand Is Better Than One Overhead.
Finishing in 1st place, it's... Yes, you guessed it! Corax!
First off, he has style. Not the in-your-face manly "i'll kick all of your asses" style of Khan, but Corax seems to be a really good and cool guy. Firstly, Black and White is pretty swish. In normal clothing it could be a bit dull, but in heavy-duty nigh-on-invulnerable armour from the 30th millennium it looks cool!
Similarly, I think we can all agree that Lightning Claws are pretty damn awesome and beaky helmets are pretty cool too!
Corax is a bit like Wolverine on acid, after therapy, on a black and white T.V and with a better hair cut. obviously.
However, not just in image does Corax appeal to me (in a manly "awesome!" rather than slightly less manly "oooh I would" way!) but also his persona. As excaliber has noted, I'm generally a nice person and therefore typically side with the good guys or simply nice people. Corax is without doubt both a good guy and a nice (albeit army-leading, enemy murdering and fictional) dude! Even before he was found by the Emperor he was doing good deeds for good people, supporting the people of Deliverance in over-coming their tyrannical leaders. But not through blood-shed, but through wits and tactics.
Screw you Gulliman and your little blue book, if a battle can be one without blood being drawn then that is a true victory! Corax and the Raven Guard fight with both intelligence and efficiency, not through sheer bloodshed, aggression or numbers. That is the true nature of a victory, Russ himself pointed out that a battle won through the cost of your own forces is not a battle won.
Angron is violent, Russ is brutal, Perturabo is relentless, Dorn is implacable, but Corax... Corax is smart.
The methodology of the Raven Guard and Corax is brutally (or not) efficient. If Corax can supplicate a human world with minimum loss of life, then that is a true victory for the Great Crusade. Whereas Curze can do it with fear and brutality, Corax does it with intelligence.
Also, in the novel Fulgrim, it says something similar to that Corax will only speak if what he says is worth saying. Now although that wouldn't make for great conversation, to me, that only adds further to Corax's dark, gothic but ultimately very cool and very noble image. Like Gordon Freeman but less ginger and less head-humping!
Much like myself - although with more balls and more brains and more muscle and more... well the list goes on... Anyway, Corax is much like me in that his heart is in the right place. Nothing he's done has been done out of pettiness (ahem. Perturabo), everything he's done has been done with good intentions. He's not perfect, no-one is. He didn't intend to create mutants, but he used them for a good cause and he did put them out of their apparent misery at the cost of a part of his morality. That is sacrifice, that is nobility and that is ultimately good intentions.
So he messed up, who doesn't?! If Superman had accidentally dropped someone he was flying to safety, you'd forgive him! So where's the love for Corax? If that were Corax, he would've dropped the person onto a criminal: two birds, one stone and one big splatter. He screwed up, but he did the right thing.
Kurze did it at a huge cost of life and with utter brutality, Corax did it with intelligence and heart. Well, technically two hearts but that's not something to complain about.
Sanguinus and Konrad Curze both sacrificed themselves for very good causes, however they didn't have to live with their sacrifices.
Some people claim Corax to be too Emo. I strongly disagree; an emo is someone who is both immature and almost tries to be sad. An emo gets upset over nothing and then does nothing about it. Corax got upset over the death of around 90% of his sons, the collapse of what he fought for and the death and fall of his brothers. Oh and an galaxy-wide war. However, he also tried to do something about it! You don't see emo's creating hulking great mutants to try and solves their problems! OK, so he messed up, but as with Birthday presents; it's the thought that counts!
When he met the Emperor, they spent two days talking about an unknown subject. Let's be honest, it was probably a bit more than "So Dad, how's mum?" I believe that Corax may have been questioning his intentions. Some Primarchs instantly swore fealty, whilst others demanded a test of arms (not arm-wrestle!), I reckon Corax tested the Emperor's intentions and beliefs rather than blindly swearing fealty. Even so, it adds just more mystery to the man. We all like a bit of secrecy and imagination requirements, just look at Alpharius. Corax is no different.
"As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door." Yeah, it's your long-lost daddy, he says hi and that he wants you to join him in a galactic crusade.
Finally, on my list of all things good about Corax, he has a good theme. Whereas some Primarchs are obviously themed around a very specific thing - eg. Angron/Angry or the outside themes like Lion'el Jonson and the poet of a similar name. Corax is themed around a poem by Edgar Allen Poe and - unlike some of the themes - this is smartly and subtly done. For example, Raven Guard is an obvious link yet a cool and suitable name, Corax is latin for raven, Deliverance is themed from the poem as are his last words of 'never more', his armour is jet black and his life is plagued by misery. These are all subtly done and actually add to, rather than detract from, his character. Think Angron, just not crap. And yes I do dislike that guy!
Corax is the kind of guy where you have to look below the surface to really appreciate and respect him. He's like some kick-ass black-adamantium-wrapped present full of goodness and killing. Like Shrek's onion, except Corax really will bring a tear to your eye.
If I could be ruled over by any Primarch, I'd want it to be Corax. He is ultimately a very knightly, righteous and well-meaning guy. He's not arrogant, he's not violent and he's not stupid. He's a genuinely nice guy and has genuinely nice intentions. He's the kind of guy you can respect and love. You can respect Curze, but at the same time you'd fear him like nothing else. He's also a well-meaning guy, but unlike Curze, he doesn't make a fire-work display out of a planet to be the a good person.
My favourite Primarch is now Corax. He's knightly, he's well-meaning, he's bad-ass, he's cool, he's possibly the smartest Primarch, he's flawed but he's such a good guy. He's a true demi-god, a leader and legend among men, but imperfect.
The raven isn't a symbol of misery any more. It's a symbol of ultimate well-meaning and of this thread, it always will be within the world. For-evermore.
Rounding off my celebration of Dakka and 1000 posts, Corax emerges victorious. In 1st Place and my favourite Primarch, it's Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard.
It's been an absolute pleasure if a bit of a slog to get it done. I hope you have all enjoyed it and can understand my reasoning.
Hugs and Kisses, Dave.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, now I don't get banned!
As was requested on the original thread, here is what my original intentions were just after I started the thread:
OK then ladies and gentlemen, here is what my original intentions were and how the rankings changed, due to further research (Khan, Corax), peer pressure (Morty) or various other factors.
Pre-Ranking Intentions: ------------ Final Ranking:
18th: Angron ------------ (0) ------------ Angron
17th: Ferrus Manus ------------ (0) ------------ Ferrus
16th: Jonson ------------ (+1) ------------ Fulgrim
15th: Fulgrim ------------ (-1) ------------ Jonson
14th: Perturabo ------------ (0) ------------ Perturabo
13th: Gulliman ------------ (+1) ------------ Russ
12th: Khan ------------ (+3) ------------ Gulliman
11th: Russ ------------ (-2) ------------ Lorgar
10th: Vulkan ------------ (0) ------------ Vulkan
9th: Lorgar ------------ (-2) ------------ Khan
8th: Mortarion ------------ (+4) ------------ Horus
7th: Corax ------------ (+6) ------------ Magnus
6th: Magnus ------------ (-1) ------------ Dorn
5th: Dorn ------------ (-1) ------------ Alpharius
4th: Alpharius ------------ (-1) ------------ Mortarion
3rd: Horus ------------ (-5) ------------ Sanguinius
2nd: Konrad Curze ------------ (0) ------------ Kurze
1st: Sanguinius ------------ (-2) ------------ Corax
Here is the link to Little Lord Fauntleroy's original thread that so inspired me: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296006.page
I was utterly enjoyable creating that thread and I appreciate the kind words of everyone. Hopefully it helped to show that I am a well meaning guy despite my flaws and errors, and I use Dakka to just try and help others enjoy the hobby and to have fun myself. It may be an internet forum - and the only one I've ever used at that - but DakkaDakka's helped me as a person and has been great fun. I'm not really into the hobby too much, but Dakka will always keep me at least slightly interested, I believe many of the Mod's and contributors/posters do a great job to keep the site running smoothly whilst keeping it enjoyable and informative.
I hope you have enjoyed this ranking and Dakka as much as I have, I'll try to get back to my practice of actually contributing to Dakka...
Thanks everyone, enjoy. Hugs and Kisses, Dave.
Note: This was written just before (reading) Prospero Burns, so due to certain HH novels not being released by that point, my ranking may be different to how it would be after reading said novels...