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Will lash of submission be tier 1? Will it be used as much as holofield eldar tanks are used?

Chaos Sorcerer - mark of slaanesh, lash of submission 125pts

Demon Prince - mark of slaanesh, lash of submission 135pts

And the scary one:

Demon Prince - mark of slaanesh, lash of submission, wings 155pts

Demon Prince - mark of slaanesh, lash of submission, wings 155pts

That's right, 2 of them.

>>> A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a Psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player. This move is not slowed by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal. Victims may not be moved off the table, into impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. After this, the affected unit must take a Pinning test. <<<

Ok it might be hard to say without seeing the whole codex.

But two lash of submission might make for a nice first turn charge with beserkers:

12 Beserkers - skull champion with powerfist 292

Or raptors:

10 Raptors - khorne, aspiring champion with powerfist 270

Or will it be used mostly for non-combat purposes?

It makes for oblit plasma cannon killy goodness as well, since you can bunch the models up.

(new emphasis mine)

Why would you want your enemies 'Zerkers charging you first turn?

Is there a law or something of whenever a big thread gets started the first reply is slowed?

Move the unit you want to charge with your zerkers...

As this represents the models shooting for the turn it would be hard to judge without looking at everything else. But....

1. You could stepping stone units forward so that you get to assault them, thus setting up your assaults far sooner than if you had to foot it accross the table.
2. You can move command squads or Pathfinders and other high value units out of bunkers
3. Move devestator squads behind cover terrain so they lose two turns firing.

Looks borken to me, I wonder if GW know what this spell can do and if they have playtested it at all. If you get a 'save' of some description such as a Ld test the ability is fair, but it doesnt look like you do, you just get moved. Either this rule has been reported wrong, or its yet another reason why GW games design should be outsourced.

Agree with Orlanth. Chaos would have 1-2 more tools to deal with the genestealer assault force as well.

Something to replace Siren! Oh joy.

(Marines, at least, have psychic hoods. Everyone else, suck it up.)

This is a game-making skill, simple as that. It's like Nether Swap or Hook in DotA, for those who play it. Incredible.

Janthkin, Shadow in the Warp/RoWarding give a decent chance as well, surely, so that's two other armies that aren't screwed. (How coincidental that these are both powerhouse armies, heh.) I think Sisters have something that could negate it too?

Imperials - Psy hoods (good)
Nids - shadow in the warp (better than nothing)
Eldar - runes of warding (just wow!)

Unless there is something else not mentioned, it looks like a very nasty ability that most top armies get some form of 'save' against. Eldar in particular is a nasty counter - or are chaos immune to perils?

I really hope this is a very limited item, kinda like dark blades were.

More than one of these in a list is stupid.

Hell, just one of these in a list is kinda dumb too, but not game breaking singularly.

Not as powerful as siren, but still very very good. (read: BROKEN)

Control elements have proven to be quite rare in the past. Whirlie minefields, deceiver deployment, eldrad deployment, puppetmaster psychic ability for witchhunter adversaries are about all I can think of that have any semblance of directly or indirectly controlling an enemies force.

All the previous rumors had the unit in question needing to fail a leadership test as well.

If thats true, and considering how high leadership is today for nearly everything, then perhaps not so broken. Actually, it could be considered laughable.

"I use my lash on your 60 point guard unit! I are the haxxoR!!111! Aww dammit, you have a high leadership bubble...nevermind... :S "

"All the previous rumors had the unit in question needing to fail a leadership test as well."

That would make it a fair weapon and a good introduction to the game, sure you have about 1:6 to pull it off on average, if targeted at a 'worthwhile' Ld9 target, but allowing for what it can do that isnt a problem. 1: 6 chance is worth it vs Pathfinders, it could make a 2+ cover a 'no save' in cityfight real easy. It could still get very nasty if chaos get leadership modifier abilities, which would make sense. Combine it with a corrupted Fear of the Darkness and can wreck havoc


Without the ld tes: borken, borken, borken.

Time will tell.

There is NO leadership test for the unit. Just for the psyker. I have the codex in front of me.

And you can take it twice.

No leadership test for the unit in question. The Chaos unit in question simply takes a psychic test, and if passed BAM you're moved 2D6". Seems like the max you can take in a list is 2, and FYI a Flying Demon Prince with the requisite goodies to take this is 155 Points (Wings, MoS, Lash of Submission). Yay 1st Turn Charges with DP's or just pure game-breakingness.

When was the last time your saw a 'nid player take Shadow in the Warp?

Maybe they wil now-- no, they probably still won't.

Eldar are in decent shape, as Eldrad is there for them.

"There is NO leadership test for the unit. Just for the psyker. I have the codex in front of me.
And you can take it twice."

How slowed. Looks like librarians and Farseers are now mandatory.
Nids are not hurt too badly by this, all their weapons are assault and the asrmy is fast moving. Guard, Orks and Tau are in trouble though, Guard in particular because of the heavy rated weapons and reliance on keeping distance and cover. Psychic Ward is no use, even if you get it! I wonder if there is a soon to be mandatory =I= ally loadout you could use to stop this?

Anything that forces your opponent to do something is quite powerful, and the Lash of Submission seems to go beyond the pale in this area.  It's bad enough when the Callidus does it, but that's once per game, at the very beginning. 

I see Chaos Sorcerers with this power being prime, prime targets.  Prime.  As in Rib.

Prime.

Since lesser daemons absolutely suck and no one will take them anymore, just pack in a GK HQ w/hood. As a bonus, his S6 force weapon should still make Mr. Daemon Prince a little cautious about rushing in.

Why would you take sorcerors with this? It's a Slaanesh only psychic power that you can give to your flying demon prince.

Also from the looks of it, it's not going to do much in terms of stopping heavy weapons fire, it moves your units in the Chaos players phase, not your own movement phase.

The problem is that it moves things into charge range, off objectives, out of cover, tons of stuff that you could do with this that is just sick.

"Also from the looks of it, it's not going to do much in terms of stopping heavy weapons fire, it moves your units in the Chaos players phase, not your own movement phase."

But if you were in cover and then find your unit behind cover, easy to do as you dont make difficult terrain moves, then your heavy weapon toting squad may have LOS blocked. Thus it takers a move to get back into a firing position.
- One turns shooting lost.
Furthermore it may be pinned.
- Potential second turns shooting lost.
Furthermore as you move 2d6 without difficult terrain it may take two turns move to get back to where you started, if that is where you need to be.
- Potential third turns shooting lost.

Now that is a worst case scenario, if you are playing on a pretty coverlesss table and your unit passes its pinning test, the Lash may do nothng to you. If in cityfight and you end up behind the building you were set up in you lose a turns shooting minimum out of this, quite likely two.

Oh you've certainly got a ton of reasons how/why it could be used to stop heavy weapons fire, no question. I was merely trying to point out that it doesn't automatically count you as moving or something which is what I thought other people were under the impression of.

This kind of thing is absolutely huge in what it can do both offensively and defensively.

Heck just thinking about forcing Flyrants or Fex's out of cover with it so that it can get shot at by my 6-9 Oblits, it's just awesome.

From the looks of it, we're going to be seeing a LOT of Flying Slaanesh Demon Princes in the future, likely coming in pairs for each Chaos army.

However the average Lash pull would be 7-8 inches, so it's not that big of deal. The first turn assaults can be limited with model placement and using the placement to limit the kill zone. Also, use one's own units to block movement - unless the Lash allows Chaos to move models through other model bases'.

d6" is enough, 2d6" is a bit much, being able to get > 6"

meh, at least GW is trying to make cool rules

The Lash of Submission is slowed when you consider all the possibilities and I can see it being banned from tournaments, or getting FAQed very very quickly.

It's much worse than Siren.

A few units of T4(5) FNP Deathguard giving you trouble? just lash them into a tight circle and hit them with Blastmaster S8 AP3 Blasts, vindicator/defiler.

Havoc/Devastator squad with plenty of ablative wounds and a unit champ? Just lash the ablative wounds out of LOS at the start of your shooting phase, and pick off the Heavy weapons and powerfist to your hearts content.

Pathfinders? Lash them out of cover and blow them away. Harlequins? Lash them closer and make VoT a joke.

There is the aforementioned double Slaaneshi Daemonprince first turn charge.

bah.

Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a Psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player.

Since it targets, you have to pass VoT first to use it on harlies. Not that I think it matters because I just don't see the harlies being targeted anyway, they're probably already close enough, or in a falcon.

I have to admit that this type of puppetmaster ability is quite cool. Broken, but still a very very neat idea. very choasy.

I still dont want to see something like this in print to be abused, but still neat none the less. I really pray that it becomes balanced. Because it would be nice to see a very nifty rule like this, but just not broken.

Thank God we have Jervis at the helm to prevent stupid rul...er...nevermind.

Bear in mind the following

The Daemon Prince is not a IC so can be targeted
T5 3+/5++ with 4 Wounds is tough but at least its not T6 or not upgradeable to a 2+ save.
The power is instead of shooting so the Prince can only charge the unit
The power is LOS only so the Daemon Prince has to be put into harms way.
The wording says you have to move the distance specified; so no bunching up for Obliterator Plasma Cannon shots

Still rude as all heck but at least they cant hide like Librarians with Fury of the Ancients...

Aeon, we're talking about Daemon Princes here. Since when have these two points been concerns?

Since Daemon Princes gear have been nerfed.

You cant upgrade them anymore like the old codex (ie the one that is about to be replaced)

I haven't seen the new one, but from what people have said, it will still be possible to upgrade them such that they can execute a first turn charge (with Lash), which kind of negates those concerns. You're right, though; I hadn't considered the nerf they've received in other areas.