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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Florida

QUESTIONS FOR THE ¡§EMAIL Q&A¡¨ SENT TO GAVIN THORPE FOR THE NECRO 2007

1) Are there currently plans to produce a new Chaos Dwarf army book and if so will they be an autonomous army as before or fall under the Chaos umbrella (like Beasts, Mortals & Deamons)?

GAV
¡¥Plans¡¦ is too strong a word, but there¡¦s definitely a desire (and a sense of duty) that we will get back to them one day. They would be a complete army in their own regard.

2) Are there currently plans to produce anything for the Demiurg for Warhammer 40k?

Gav
No, is the short answer (short, geddit?).

3) What were the games designers thinking when they gave falcons the ability to have extra armor so all hits are always glancing, unless you can shoot them on turn 1 before they move and have a fair chance of killing them?

GAV
They were thinking that Falcons are Armour 12 so anything with S6 and above can potentially destroy them 1/3 of the time even with a glancing hit. Perhaps players should try less lascannon-like weapons for the job, and more multilasers and assault cannons.
And is there an chance the unbalanced rule may be altered in the future?
The only time rules would change would be in a new Codex: Eldar, which obviously won¡¦t be for many years yet.

4) Do Eldar / Dark Eldar jetbikes or skyboards nullify the "Fleet of foot" rule?

GAV
Yes, although wait for the FAQ (which will be coming honest!) for that to become official.

5)        Tentative 40K Codex release schedule for 2008..?
Something green and then some other books. ļ

6) Are you a big fan of Harry Potter? (yea I know, but someone asked¡K lol)

GAV
Never met him ;-)

7) Does taking a Steam Tank down to half wounds net you half VP's for that model, or do you have to kill it outright to gain any VP's whatsoever? Is it a warmachine or a unit?

GAV
Warhammer, P102: ¡§Models that fight on their own and not in units¡K are worth half their points value in VPs if reduced to half their starting number of wounds or less.¡¨ That¡¦s crystal clear. Sorry, that was a bit of a waste of a question.

<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> Any and ALL details he is in liberty give us concerning the upcoming chaos codex for 40k? That's all I wish for when I go to sleep at night...Praying to the dark gods...

GAV
The main shift has been to bring in the Chaos Renedages of the last ten thousand years rather than focus solely on the Traitor Legions and the events of the Horus Heresy. There is one army list, pretty flexible with the ¡¥cult¡¦ Marines such as Plague Marines and Berzerkers as Troops, so theming is still viable. Marks (represented by unit Icons) are available to a much wider selection of units. On the whole the aim was ¡¥freedom not rules¡¦. It¡¦s Chaos, for crying out loud, it shouldn¡¦t be a mess of overlapping structures and restrictions!
Many of the more fiddly options have been removed as specific rules, allowing players to exercise their imagination in creating cool models and paint schemes rather than worrying whether that ¡¥spiky bit¡¦ on their Lord¡¦s helmet would cost them 5 points. In all, the viewpoint has been wound back so players are making decisions about their army on a more macro-scale, thinking about the mix of units and vehicles rather than inconsequential modeling details on individual members of their squads.
Daemons are ¡¥generic¡¦, and are broken into Summoned Greater Daemons and Summoned Daemons. They have one profile for each type and can be considered almost like a spell effect. Codex: Chaos Daemons will be released several months after Codex: Chaos Space Marines for those who love their Chaos Daemons and want to field Daemonic Legions armies.
The army list represents a ¡¥typical¡¦ Chaos Space Marines army with a mix of Marks and Gods, although players still have plenty of options to theme if they desire. It was felt that to do proper justice to the ¡¥cult¡¦ armies (i.e. Khorne armies, etc) requires a specific Codex in its own right ¡V Codex: World Eaters, for example, just like Codex: Dark Angels for the loyalists. There¡¦s immense scope for really cool models, background and games within these armies and to reduce them to a relatively few options (not well represented by the miniatures range) and a page of background is bordering on the criminal. Why not have 20+ pages of history for Khornate warbands from and a full army list of cool Khornate-themed stuff like different types of Berzerkers squads to choose from? Now, there¡¦s no scheduled releases of this type yet, but by approaching Codex: Chaos Space Marines in the way we have, we have the option to do so without creating contradictions and confusion.
Also we¡¦ve included lots of Colour schemes and background to inspire people on the painting side of the hobby, including over two dozen new colour schemes for various warbands. I¡¦m really pleased with it. I think it¡¦s now possible to choose a Chaos army without succumbing to the madness of the warp, and the idea of creating your own warband is now as strong as the urge for loyalist players to create their own Chapters. The idea was to give that back to the players and allow them to decide what they want in their army and how it looks ¡V freedom not rules!

9) When will a new Space Orks codex arrive? The last one was 1999. It looks so lonely on the shelf next to all the new ones.

GAV
Yes, it is really showing its age. As my earlier answer indicated, the new Waaagh! will begin early next year and it¡¦s gonna be big.

10) How do you classify Monsterous characters? Base size? Can they be affected by spells that target monsters? (IE: Beast Cowers)

GAV
A Monster is, generally, a model that is fielded on its own or as a mount, has multiple wounds and has a 40mm square or larger base. The only exceptions are Hydras and Salamanders, which come with handlers but are monsters. Ogres, Minotaurs, etc are infantry. We are currently looking at publishing an update of the ¡¥base size¡¦ chart on the web or in WD, with added categorization on infantry/ cavalry/ monsters, etc

a. THIS IS PART OF THE ABOVE QUESTION¡K. Does the Rune of the True Beast affect monstrous characters? (i.e. treeman ancients, greater daemons, shaggoth champs)?

GAV
No, they are characters. Note that, for example, this means a Shaggoth is affected, while a Shaggoth Champion isn¡¦t. A character ¡¥monster¡¦ is assumed to have the strength of mind and willpower to resist these sorts of things, while most monsters are more mindless and instinctual.


b. THIS IS THE 40MM SIZE QUESTION OF THE SAME ABOVE¡K Does wolf hunts or beast cowers effect ogres/minotaurs/40mm base models?

GAV
No, they are infantry as they come in units of more than one model (or can do, in the case of Maneaters).

11) If I cast the new warrior priest prayer that lets the model reroll hit and wounds on a wizard, would the wizard be able to reroll wound rolls on spells? EX. fireball, conflag, comet...

GAV
As written, it affects all rolls to hit and wound (so would also affects an Engineer¡¦s ranged attacks, etc).

12) Does -1 attack magic items/abilites such as blooddragon blademaster or cursed shield of mousillon effect attacks made by tomb kings righetous smiting?

GAV
Yes.

13) Does the spell wolf hunts effect ancients/shaggoth champs/greater demons?

GAV
No, they are characters not monsters (see earlier.

14) Luthor Huss has special rules with no description on what they do, ...misprint?

GAV
Yes, the summary in the army list is incorrect ¡V summaries always manage to creep something like this in¡K

15) If a stone thrower or flame template covers a stegadon, does all the crew get hit?

GAV
Warhammer, p61: ¡§If a monsters has two or more riders¡K then randomize any hits among the two riders¡¨. Only one Skink is hit.

16) Do any + to hit modifiers or weapons that always hit on 2s, banners that always hit on 3s, or tress of isloude like items effect wood elf annoyance of netlings? Or is it just a roll off each time to sees which magic is better?

GAV
Irresistible force versus immovable object, roll each time.

17) Can negative spell effects stack? For example can I cast doom and darkness on a unit twice for -6 leadership? Would the -1 to hit, wound, and save spell from metal be stackable?

GAV
No, they are not cumulative unless the spell specifies otherwise. If a spell makes a unit -3 Ld, the unit is -3 Leadership, the second spell has the same effect.

1<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> With the release of the new books there is no longer Dogs of war as a rare choice listed. Can these new book armies no longer take advantage of dogs of war or do you go by the regiment of renown entries?

GAV
The rules for including DOW are in the DOW army list and Regiments of Renown rules. We felt it better to remove the direct tie with the army books, as a) it wasn¡¦t true, some DOW could be taken as Specials or characters, and b) if we do get around to updating the DOW book we don¡¦t want to be tied to any particular system.

19) If I have a dark emmissary or truthsayer in my non dow army, can he join my units? For example: could he join a unit of chaos warriors in a mortal hordes of chaos list?

GAV
Er, why wouldn¡¦t they be able to?

20) When do they expect to release a drop pod model, and will chaos get dread claw drop pods int their codex or always deepstrike termis?

GAV
There¡¦s no plan for a drop pod model in the next few months, and we thought about adding them to Chaos Space Marines bur decided against it this time around ¡V the loyalists need a few things to mark them out as an army! There¡¦s nothing particularly wrong with collecting an army of ¡¥recently turned¡¦ renegades and using the Codex: Space Marines as a basis for your Choas Space Marine models, as long as your opponent is sure what they are facing. Of course, you wouldn¡¦t get Icons or Daemons or any of the cool Chaos stuff.

21) There is a rumor about High Elves in the new book either striking first all the time, or always striking in initiatvie order whether charging or charged. Is this true, and is this going to be a new ALL ELF rule or just a High Elf thing?

GAV
Any High Elves specific rules are for the high Elves, to represent not only their natural skills, but also their training and discipline when fighting together.

22) My question has to do with the interaction of pistols and hand weapons in close combat. The pistol description says that a pistol used in close combat counts as a hand weapon and that a brace of pistols counts as a pair of hand weapons. It is simple enough, but the 'Fighting with a weapon in each hand' section explains that any combination of hand weapons allows you to benefit from the extra attack. As (virtually) all models come with a hand weapon, a player could combine it with a single pistol in order to get an extra attack. Is this intended? The pistol rules seem to indicate that you need two pistols to get an extra attack, but the extra hand weapon rules state otherwise. Do we need one pistol or a brace of pistols to benefit from a weapon in each hand?

GAV
You need a brace of pistols to get the extra attack ¡V like lightning claws in 40K.

23) Does the moonstone allow you to teleport from wood to wood at the end of YOUR OWN movement phase, or at the end of ANY movement phase?

GAV
Your own.


24) THIS IS A MUCH NEEDED QUESTION APPARENTLY FOR THE ¡§WARHAMMER ROCKERS¡¨ Who made the brilliant decision to start the Citadel record label and inflict the rock band Bolt Thrower upon the world?

GAV
To be honest, I think Bolt Thrower would have been inflicted upon the world with or without Warhammer Records. The project was led by Andy Jones, something of a guitarist himself, who also brought us the Troll Games and Warhammer Quest and now runs EMD, the licensing division that includes Black Library, computer games tie-ins and all that.


THANK YOU GAV FOR TAKING THE TIME OUT TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR THE GUYS, I REALLY DO APPRECIATE IT

GAV
My pleasure, shame I couldn¡¦t make the trip over. I look forward to meeting up if you can get over this side of the pond. Take care, have fun, and roll plenty of sixes (except for morale checks)!

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions



Calgary Alberta

Where is this from?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Florida

THis is a Q and A Gav replied to over Email for the Necro 2007 in Orlando Florida this past weekend

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

I can confirm this. I saw a poster on warseer post a little seen blurb regarding the eldar dark eldar fleet issue.

I dont have the link to the site where it was linked to, but I read the whole article and this does indeed look like what i read.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




They were thinking that Falcons are Armour 12 so anything with S6 and above can potentially destroy them 1/3 of the time even with a glancing hit. Perhaps players should try less lascannon-like weapons for the job, and more multilasers and assault cannons.


I guess he doesn't know about holo fields.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Posted By davidson on 07/20/2007 12:36 AM

I guess he doesn't know about holo fields.

Seems that way.

I'd say he doesn't know the rules for Skimmers Moving Fast either...

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Basingstoke, UK

Great. More unofficial Q&As instead of proper FAQs.

Yet more reason to play other people's games.

Poi

Honk if Pluto is a planet. 
   
Made in us
Master Sergeant





Posted By davidson on 07/20/2007 12:36 AM
They were thinking that Falcons are Armour 12 so anything with S6 and above can potentially destroy them 1/3 of the time even with a glancing hit. Perhaps players should try less lascannon-like weapons for the job, and more multilasers and assault cannons.


I guess he doesn't know about holo fields.



Well, he does say "potentially", so he's technically correct. In fact, any S6 or higher weapon can "potentially" destroy a Falcon 100% of the time. Doesn't really answer the question, though.

In fact, as usual, this whole Q&A is typical GW vague-avoiding-of-the-question.


Green Blow Fly wrote:Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k.

Ironically, they do. So do cheats. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The fact that Falcons are vulnerable to approximately twice the variety of weapons as a typical MBT and have to pay more than 1/2 their base price for the obvious upgrades sort of evens out their singular-event durability...

How typical to criticise GW for trying to give you an answer without spelling it out to you and thus making you look the fool...and yet you fail to take the advice and thus look the fool regardless...

I've had my Falcons destroyed more often by plasma guns, autocannons, assault cannons, etc. than single-shot "anti-tank" guns...Gav's advice is sound.


Ba-zziiing!



 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

11) If I cast the new warrior priest prayer that lets the model reroll hit and wounds on a wizard, would the wizard be able to reroll wound rolls on spells? EX. fireball, conflag, comet...

GAV
As written, it affects all rolls to hit and wound (so would also affects an Engineer¡¦s ranged attacks, etc).


That's interesting, didn't know about that one.

Also, Bolt Thrower is actually related to Warhammer???? Ha!

- Salvage

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Jervis: We're sick of seeing some many assault cannons, so we're going to make them more expensive and less available.

Gav: "Perhaps players should try less lascannon-like weapons for the job, and more multilasers and assault cannons. "

Left hand, meet right hand.
   
Made in us
Master Sergeant





Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 4:29 AM

The fact that Falcons are vulnerable to approximately twice the variety of weapons as a typical MBT and have to pay more than 1/2 their base price for the obvious upgrades sort of evens out their singular-event durability...

How typical to criticise GW for trying to give you an answer without spelling it out to you and thus making you look the fool...and yet you fail to take the advice and thus look the fool regardless...

I've had my Falcons destroyed more often by plasma guns, autocannons, assault cannons, etc. than single-shot "anti-tank" guns...Gav's advice is sound.

ROFL... oh dear, that was funny...

 

Wait... you're not serious, are you?


Green Blow Fly wrote:Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k.

Ironically, they do. So do cheats. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




IG army should use multilasers instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 1/2 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 1/3 glancing hits.
A multilaser gets 3 shots with a 1/2 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to glance, average of 1/4 glancing hits.

Marine armies should use ASScannons instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 2/3 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 0.444 glancing hits.
An assault cannon gets 4 shots at 2/3 to hit, and 1/6 to glance (regardless of rending) so average of 0.444 glancing hits.

Thank you Gav, it's good to know we have competent people such as yourself in charge of the rules.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Posted By thehod on 07/19/2007 6:38 PM
QUESTIONS FOR THE ¡§EMAIL Q&A¡¨ SENT TO GAVIN THORPE FOR THE NECRO 2007

GAV
The main shift has been to bring in the Chaos Renedages of the last ten thousand years rather than focus solely on the Traitor Legions...

...Also we've included lots of Colour schemes and background to inspire people on the painting side of the hobby, including over two dozen new colour schemes for various warbands. I'm really pleased with it. I think it's now possible to choose a Chaos army without succumbing to the madness of the warp, and the idea of creating your own warband is now as strong as the urge for loyalist players to create their own Chapters. The idea was to give that back to the players and allow them to decide what they want in their army and how it looks - freedom not rules!


Wow.

So at the expense of unique Traitor Legions I get some nifty new color schemes? What a trade!

And doesn't this sound a bit odd: "...and the idea of creating your own warband is now as strong as the urge for loyalist players to create their own Chapters" given what we've seen in terms of C: DA and C: BA and the oft threatened C: SM Redux?

Unless "creating your own chapter" means painting it whatever color you want...

Whatever...

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By Razor Gator on 07/20/2007 6:02 AM
IG army should use multilasers instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 1/2 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 1/3 glancing hits.
A multilaser gets 3 shots with a 1/2 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to glance, average of 1/4 glancing hits.

Marine armies should use ASScannons instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 2/3 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 0.444 glancing hits.
An assault cannon gets 4 shots at 2/3 to hit, and 1/6 to glance (regardless of rending) so average of 0.444 glancing hits.

Thank you Gav, it's good to know we have competent people such as yourself in charge of the rules.


That entire post should be printed out and put in Gav's next performance review.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions



Calgary Alberta

Is there a link to the original source for this or is it from the necro message board?
   
Made in ca
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie




Posted By mauleed on 07/20/2007 6:25 AM
Posted By Razor Gator on 07/20/2007 6:02 AM
IG army should use multilasers instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 1/2 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 1/3 glancing hits.
A multilaser gets 3 shots with a 1/2 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to glance, average of 1/4 glancing hits.

Marine armies should use ASScannons instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 2/3 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 0.444 glancing hits.
An assault cannon gets 4 shots at 2/3 to hit, and 1/6 to glance (regardless of rending) so average of 0.444 glancing hits.

Thank you Gav, it's good to know we have competent people such as yourself in charge of the rules.


That entire post should be printed out and put in Gav's next performance review.
Between stuff lke this and "we don't have a formula for points" I'm guessing there is not a person on the gaming side of GW who passed the probability section of their grade 5 math classes.

It remains to be seen how many of thier corperate end actually took and passed  economics.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Well, they're obviously following the book.

Unfortunatly, that book is titled, "How to piss off your customers, drive them away, and ruin your business".

"I went into a hobby-shop to play m'self a game,
The 'ouse Guru 'e up an' sez "The Guard is weak and lame!"
The Chaos gits around the shelves they laughed and snickered in my face,
I outs into the street again an' grabbed my figure-case."
Oh it's "Angels this" an' "Space-wolves that", and "Guardsmen, go away!";
But it's "Thank you for the ordnance" when the Guard begins to play,
O it's "LOOK AT ALL THE ORDNANCE!" when the Guard begins to play.."
-Cadian XXIX (edited for length) 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut




I know Falcons are the modern target for cries and whines but try to think of it like I do. There aren't many things particularly points effective in the Eldar army, but Falcon is one of them. It's not a gun platform but a transport for Harlequins and Fire Dragons. It can be shaken really easy.

What you should be thinking is how are you going to kill 12 Harlequins and 6 Fire Dragons with your army, instead of how to kill 3 Falcons. The only time I see the tank a little bit imbalanced is when the mission rewards you lots of victory points for having scoring units such as Falcons on top of an objective or the enemy deploymen zone in the end. I've seen quite a few Eldar battles where the entire Eldar army has been wiped out but 3 Falcons remain on an objective.

It shouldn't surprise any of you Gav's math is off. Frankly I'm surprised that he even took the 5 minutes to answer all those questions. I often think the designers aren't actually real and the rules come off from a random game generator.

Well, as Ed Maule once famously said: "Therion's from Finland, where comp does not exist. Where he's from the trash we're forced to field for a tournament would lose to a 12 year old." - bigchris1313 
   
Made in ie
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

It's wierd. Whenever I see these interviews, I never see anyone ask the obvious question: Are you at Gw design ever embarassed by your own game? For example, the treatment of orks (Incomplete model range, no support, hacking out of all the good fluff), the ridiculous dominance of space marines and the inhability to put out good codices? That's what I want to ask. i want to know if they are all brainwashed sycophants or actually people, capable of a wee bit of empathy.

   
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Posted By Razor Gator on 07/20/2007 6:02 AM
IG army should use multilasers instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 1/2 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 1/3 glancing hits.
A multilaser gets 3 shots with a 1/2 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to glance, average of 1/4 glancing hits.

Marine armies should use ASScannons instead of lascannons against Falcons.

A lascannon gets one shot with a 2/3 chance to hit and with a 2/3 chance to glance, so average 0.444 glancing hits.
An assault cannon gets 4 shots at 2/3 to hit, and 1/6 to glance (regardless of rending) so average of 0.444 glancing hits.

Thank you Gav, it's good to know we have competent people such as yourself in charge of the rules.


Thank you, it's so good to know that we have people like you to point out Gav's obvious stupidity because you can calculate probabilities...

...until you realize that the relative total number of these weapons that can be fielded by any single army will quickly turn your math onto its head...

The scary thing is that people here accept what you've written without any attempt at critical or independent thought on their part...


Ba-zziiing!



 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 9:37 AM
...until you realize that the relative total number of these weapons that can be fielded by any single army will quickly turn your math onto its head...

Elaborate.  Go on and turn my math on it's head then. If you make such a claim, back it up.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Since you asked...

2 Sentinels with Multi-Laser have a ~%50 chance of = AV 12 at up to 40" @ 90 points/unit

An IG squad w/ Lascannon/PG has ~%50 chance of =AV  12 at up to 24" range @ 95 points/unit

It's obvious which is of more utility to a general, and the Infantry are getting a 5-point benefit of doubt.

The situation is even more apparent with fire-support squads (obviously assuming AC/LC matchup instead)

The only place where a multilaser would be an inefficient choice is from a Chimera because the HB is wasted on the AV 12, but in a pinch is better than nothing...

Not to mention, the point costs blatantly prove my point. You're so good at math--you should've seen it sooner. Multilasers/Autocannons cost less than LC throughout the codex, which by definition means you can potentially have more of them, which means there are more total shots fired and therefore an equal or greater chance of dealing damage than with LCs, despite a lower chance on a shot-by-shot basis.

"MathHammer," the way you've used it, is for people who don't understand this game.


Ba-zziiing!



 
   
Made in ca
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

Posted By Razor Gator on 07/20/2007 9:54 AM
Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 9:37 AM
...until you realize that the relative total number of these weapons that can be fielded by any single army will quickly turn your math onto its head...

Elaborate.  Go on and turn my math on it's head then. If you make such a claim, back it up.

I don't think he needs to. But as a minor example, I run two styles of eldar, one army with loads of low AP weaponry, and another with high AP but lots more shots. The overall effectiveness of the later list surprised me. Then again lots of shots but not so many anti-tank weapons leaves other vulnerabilities.

I think those who took cheap pot shots on Gav's math should feel bad. If you take into account for wave serpents he's not far off, and even still the different between Str6 and Anti Tank weapons effectiveness is so close that it looks lame slamming the guy. Not that I don't think until 40k is fixed that he shouldn't be flamed, but at least lets make the pot shots quality. I completely agree with Therion-   I haven't yet run more than a single falcon/prism at 1500pts and it attracts so much attention from every gun on the board that the rest of my army is basically is unscathed until its too late. In practice I've had around 40 games outside of the tournaments, and its always the same story... "Must Kill Falcon, OOPS ignored Harlequins on Foot... AIEEEHHHHH I'm Dead..... Cheesy Eldar"


   
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Posted By Sazzlefrats on 07/20/2007 10:15 AM
its always the same story... "Must Kill Falcon, OOPS ignored Harlequins on Foot... AIEEEHHHHH I'm Dead..... Cheesy Eldar"

So often so true... 

Ba-zziiing!



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Colonielellios, your math sucks.

Not because your numbers are wrong, they aren't. But because you're wrong for the same reasons you say he's wrong: poor choice of context.

Sure, when comparing cost of sentinels to a guard infantry unit with those guns, the sentinels are cheaper and therefore less effective.

BUT AGAINST EVERY OTHER CONTEXT THE LAS/PLAS SQUAD IS VASTLY SUPERIOR. Against 3+ saves, 2+ saves (and probably 4+ saves, I'm too lazy to do the math), and any other AV value, you'll want the las/plas squad. So sure, if you know you'll be playing eldar (and eldar too dumb to take a holofield), you're spot on. But if you're going anywhere with a take all comers list, take more las/plas.

But regardless, the point was the Gav thinks falcons die 1/3 of the time you glance them, and that ridiculous statement is indefensible unless you set the context up as 'I'm playing a slow'.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 07/20/2007 10:15 AM
 In practice I've had around 40 games outside of the tournaments, and its always the same story... "Must Kill Falcon, OOPS ignored Harlequins on Foot... AIEEEHHHHH I'm Dead..... Cheesy Eldar"

I also find this to often be the case.  I run eldar with one falcon as a fairly standard choice and occasionally I also have one wave serpent.  I almost always field a squad of war walkers and a squad of dark reapers and it amazes me how much fire people pour into the falcon while mostly ignoring the real threats.  Now maybe I'm just going up against bad players (and I must admit that some of them really are bad) but its such a common occurrence, even against good players, that it must be brought up. Psychology on the battlefield is powerful…and I’m not talking about anything that requires leadership checks.
On the topic of what weapons do well against skimmers, it varies from army to army.  Sure the las cannon is better than the multi laser for falcon killing but if you can get 2 multi lasers for the price of one las cannon (this includes the cost of the unit its in) the points do balance it out.  On the other hand some armies pay a premium for the unit and the added 5 or 10 points for a much more effective weapon is negligible, so you really do have to look at it both ways.



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Mauleed you're correct with the exception that the comments were made in relation to the destructibility of Falcons. I believe I've accounted for this context (since they can't usually be penned).

Falcons DO die 1/3 of the time you glance them, just like the other Eldar tanks. The difference is that most peole opt to spend more than 50% the base price of the vehicle on the upgrades that make it 3x(and some change) more survivable.

The problem with doing this is that it absorbs a much larger chunk of your army point alottment, which means that you'll have less resources in turn to make up for the weaknesses of the Falcon (mainly an inability to damage much of anything).

When all is said and done, regarding 3x Falcon builds, it's pretty much a wash. They're no more or less effective than other builds of Eldar, and are certainly less reliable.


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Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 10:11 AM

Since you asked...

2 Sentinels with Multi-Laser have a ~%50 chance of = AV 12 at up to 40" @ 90 points/unit

An IG squad w/ Lascannon/PG has ~%50 chance of =AV  12 at up to 24" range @ 95 points/unit

Worthless comparison, and you're dragging things off topic. You are comparing two radically different units that take up different slots. Why not compare Lascannon sentinels to Multilaser sentinels?
It's not like people have a choice between taking multilaser sentinels instead of guard infantry, so how does this relate to the topic?

Not to mention, the point costs blatantly prove my point. You're so good at math--you should've seen it sooner. Multilasers/Autocannons cost less than LC throughout the codex, which by definition means you can potentially have more of them, which means there are more total shots fired and therefore an equal or greater chance of dealing damage than with LCs, despite a lower chance on a shot-by-shot basis.


A logical fallacy, since you only have a certain amount of heavy weapon slots in your army. E.g. Taking multilaser sentinels instead of lascannon sentinels will save you points but wont allow you more multilasers. usually the points saved wont be significant enough to buy another unit either.

Anyway the assault cannon is MORE expensive than the lascannon(edit: in many cases, but units don't have a straight choice between the two), so how can you possibly defend Gav's assertion people should use them against Falcons?
   
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Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 10:11 AM

Since you asked...

2 Sentinels with Multi-Laser have a ~%50 chance of = AV 12 at up to 40" @ 90 points/unit

An IG squad w/ Lascannon/PG has ~%50 chance of =AV  12 at up to 24" range @ 95 points/unit

It's obvious which is of more utility to a general, and the Infantry are getting a 5-point benefit of doubt.

The situation is even more apparent with fire-support squads (obviously assuming AC/LC matchup instead)

The only place where a multilaser would be an inefficient choice is from a Chimera because the HB is wasted on the AV 12, but in a pinch is better than nothing...

Not to mention, the point costs blatantly prove my point. You're so good at math--you should've seen it sooner. Multilasers/Autocannons cost less than LC throughout the codex, which by definition means you can potentially have more of them, which means there are more total shots fired and therefore an equal or greater chance of dealing damage than with LCs, despite a lower chance on a shot-by-shot basis.

"MathHammer," the way you've used it, is for people who don't understand this game.

Thank you for your comparison of apples to oranges.  Now lets compare apples to apples.

Compare a Multi-Laser Sentinel to a Lascannon Sentinel

Lascannon Sentinel = 33% chance to Glance a Falcon at 55 Points

Multilaser Sentinel = 25% chance to Glance a Falcon at 45 Points.

The Lascannon gets you more glances per point spent than the Multilaser. 

   
 
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