Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 06:34:51


Post by: kerikhaos


Ok everyone over the last few months of being a part of this amazing forum i have read countless times about how people feel unhappy because of the purchase costs of the GW lineup.

My question quite simply is "how much should these items be in your opinion and why?"

use a current example of GW items for base and provide your reasonable cost price along with reasons why......


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 06:52:16


Post by: TheCustomLime


Land Raider: $45

It's a large kit admittedly but it is not worth $70. It's a big plastic box with little detail or optional parts.

Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.

Marines aren't worth $4 a miniature. They aren't that nice.

Stormtalon: $20.

It's a small box.

Stormraven: $40

Another plastic box.

Eldar Dire Avengers:
$12.50

They're small plastic men with chunky details. Why are they $7 a miniature?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35

$50 god damn dollars for a small plastic box? Nope.

Cadian Shock Troops:
$15

They're Guardsman. Why are they so damned pricey?

Ogryn:
$10

They're three stupid models.

Single monoposed Captain:
$5

It's a monoposed plastic mini. $5 is a little generous too.

Rhino: $20

Small box is not worth as much as the squad it carries. It's just plastic sheets.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 06:53:19


Post by: Blackhair Duckshape


Free, because paying money for things is baaaaaaaad.

Failing that, I'd be perfectly happy paying even close to what UK/US pays.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 06:54:51


Post by: welshhoppo


 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Free, because paying money for things is baaaaaaaad.

Failing that, I'd be perfectly happy paying even close to what UK/US pays.


And I only buy anything which has a 20% discount (Thank you FLGS)


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 06:59:40


Post by: VanHallan


I don't think this is a matter of price, its a matter of principle.

They should be pricing items in order to get as many people as possible INTO the hobby. Once they're into it, they will spend the current prices for extra stuff.

I don't think they will be able to go beyond 50 per codex. I think they could charge as much as 100 for the rulebook.

But that doesn't give much room.

Basically, as a matter of principle, in stead of milking the people like me who WILL pay for all we're worth(which is a diminishing quantity of people) they need to find better ways to increase how many people start the hobby.

Troop choices should be 12.50 or maybe 20 dollars most. 5 for 12.5, 10 for 20. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Leman russes at 50 bucks? I think its ok. You don't need them unless you're serious about the hobby. But I of course would prefer to pay less. I just cant say i dont understand what they charge because they should charge whatever people will pay.

The real problem is the diminishing numbers of people who will pay certain prices.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:05:34


Post by: Blackhair Duckshape


Also, Chaos Spawn are way too fething expensive, their price per model should be on par with a terminator AT THE VERY WORST.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:15:57


Post by: Ailaros


Free. Because I want it.

No, wait, I change my answer: they should pay me. That way I could make a living off of buying minis.

On an unrelated note, what does this have to do with 40k in specific?



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:17:45


Post by: jreilly89


VanHallan wrote:

Leman russes at 50 bucks? I think its ok. You don't need them unless you're serious about the hobby. But I of course would prefer to pay less. I just cant say i dont understand what they charge because they should charge whatever people will pay.

The real problem is the diminishing numbers of people who will pay certain prices.


People are driven away by high prices. If I could tell someone "Hey, buy a brand new box of squads for 12.50" they'd be all over it. A MtG theme deck is $10. If I tell the same person "Hey, buy a box of squdas for 40" they're gonna laugh at me and walk away. There's a scale of demand vs. price that GW is waaaaaaaay on the wrong side of. Yeah, you can still make a profit at $80 a Landraider, but you have about 40% of the customers/player base you could have.

Also, I don't think $50 is reasonable for me wanting a single tank. Its price gauging like this that makes side markets flourish where GW could be making real money. I would gladly buy new in box if they weren't robbing people. (Side note: $50 for a good quality tank? Metal or something other than 1/8 inch plastic sheets? sold.)


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:18:35


Post by: motyak


It seems like it is, according to the OP, about GW in general. Off to Dakka Discussions with you!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:19:30


Post by: jreilly89


 Ailaros wrote:
Free. Because I want it.

No, wait, I change my answer: they should pay me. That way I could make a living off of buying minis.

On an unrelated note, what does this have to do with 40k in specific?



Because price is very relevant to player base. See DnD, where the rulebooks are $40-$60, but you need three rulebooks (Monster Manual, DM Guide, Player's Handbook) and the amount of games you get in. Even WMH is cheaper than 40k and its similar scale/play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
Land Raider: $45

It's a large kit admittedly but it is not worth $70. It's a big plastic box with little detail or optional parts.

Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.

Marines aren't worth $4 a miniature. They aren't that nice.

Stormtalon: $20.

It's a small box.

Stormraven: $40

Another plastic box.

Eldar Dire Avengers:
$12.50

They're small plastic men with chunky details. Why are they $7 a miniature?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35

$50 god damn dollars for a small plastic box? Nope.

Cadian Shock Troops:
$15

They're Guardsman. Why are they so damned pricey?

Ogryn:
$10

They're three stupid models.

Single monoposed Captain:
$5

It's a monoposed plastic mini. $5 is a little generous too.

Rhino: $20

Small box is not worth as much as the squad it carries. It's just plastic sheets.



Sold. Something even CLOSE to this and I would easily make four or five armies. It would also stop most of the sidemarkets and people would be willing to buy from GW. Unless the $20 Rhino meant you get a cardboard cutout


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:29:15


Post by: VanHallan


 jreilly89 wrote:
VanHallan wrote:

Leman russes at 50 bucks? I think its ok. You don't need them unless you're serious about the hobby. But I of course would prefer to pay less. I just cant say i dont understand what they charge because they should charge whatever people will pay.

The real problem is the diminishing numbers of people who will pay certain prices.


People are driven away by high prices. If I could tell someone "Hey, buy a brand new box of squads for 12.50" they'd be all over it. A MtG theme deck is $10. If I tell the same person "Hey, buy a box of squdas for 40" they're gonna laugh at me and walk away. There's a scale of demand vs. price that GW is waaaaaaaay on the wrong side of. Yeah, you can still make a profit at $80 a Landraider, but you have about 40% of the customers/player base you could have.

Also, I don't think $50 is reasonable for me wanting a single tank. Its price gauging like this that makes side markets flourish where GW could be making real money. I would gladly buy new in box if they weren't robbing people. (Side note: $50 for a good quality tank? Metal or something other than 1/8 inch plastic sheets? sold.)


That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying 50 dollars for a leman russ is a good value, but when I build my guard army, if I want to add some tanks on there, I will pay it for a few tanks. It sucks, but I'll do it. But most people won't I get that.

What I am suggesting is if they would make it more affordable to have BASIC armies, they could get away with charging 50 for a tank or 75 for a land raider. the fact that they price gouge on EVERY box is just not good business.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:30:59


Post by: Daedleh


Whatever the price is per model, around £100-£150 for a full size force including all rules. Particular themed forces (say bikers) could run up to the £200-£250 range.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:33:41


Post by: jreilly89


VanHallan wrote:

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying 50 dollars for a leman russ is a good value, but when I build my guard army, if I want to add some tanks on there, I will pay it for a few tanks. It sucks, but I'll do it. But most people won't I get that.

What I am suggesting is if they would make it more affordable to have BASIC armies, they could get away with charging 50 for a tank or 75 for a land raider. the fact that they price gouge on EVERY box is just not good business.


This kind of comes to a varied discussion. What do you call basic? Most BASIC IG armies are going to have at least 2-3 tanks, so $150 for a basic army is ridiculous. Even $30 or 40 would be reasonable, but $75 seems outright ludicrous for a Landraider. $50 or 60 would be more reasonable.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:33:48


Post by: kerikhaos


interesting what your all saying,

as for someone like me who is not really a gamer but a collector (i just pick up a version of blood angels codex just for chapter completion factors) i would not have the problem of spending huge amounts for the rule book which is obvious its a needed item for everyone who plays.

My initial thoughts (being someone with never having loads of money to burn) is to always look for the same items being sold at discount prices elswhere. Now when someone is selling the stuff 20-30% cheaper brand new etc etc it appeals more of course. The problem is that GW do nothing to promote offers, deals or bulk buys. I mean even their save your clicks bundle packs save you a whopping 0 credit. Its not very attractive and even annoying.

Someone needs to re organise their marketing strategy because i think their loss of profits is down to people refusing to buy full stop because of the steep costs. Plus how many customers choose to buy from discount shops?

Next question........

would you buy if there was some kind of offer / promo system in place? For example if you spend over like 50 you would receive a free 10 off voucher for your next purchase. Or even if you pay over 50 or 60 you get a 20% discount for bulk buys. etc etc....something rewarding to the customer which pulls them to save hard and shop again there.

It just seems there is no interest on how to attack the media to get more people into the hobby because prices are reasonable and not specific to hardcore hobbyists.

What do you reckon?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:38:40


Post by: VanHallan


 jreilly89 wrote:
VanHallan wrote:

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying 50 dollars for a leman russ is a good value, but when I build my guard army, if I want to add some tanks on there, I will pay it for a few tanks. It sucks, but I'll do it. But most people won't I get that.

What I am suggesting is if they would make it more affordable to have BASIC armies, they could get away with charging 50 for a tank or 75 for a land raider. the fact that they price gouge on EVERY box is just not good business.


This kind of comes to a varied discussion. What do you call basic? Most BASIC IG armies are going to have at least 2-3 tanks, so $150 for a basic army is ridiculous. Even $30 or 40 would be reasonable, but $75 seems outright ludicrous for a Landraider. $50 or 60 would be more reasonable.


I mean basic troop choices. I'd love to see cheaper prices across the board. My only point is, GW doesn't HAVE to reduce prices if people are willing to pay, but they should cut costs on units that people need to start the army. If you could get an HQ and 2 Troop choices for around 50 bucks, that'll bring more people in. When they get bored of their basic force and want to add in specialty units such as tanks or jetbikes or whatnot, they might get away with charging the current prices.

I'm saying they should address the recruiting aspect of the pricing instead of profitability. And you know as well as I do GW has no interest in "reasonable prices."


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:44:55


Post by: TheCustomLime


For the amount of vehicles that 40k requires their current prices are ridiculous especially considering that they are mostly flat plastic boxes.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:50:47


Post by: Yonan


 TheCustomLime wrote:
Land Raider: $45
Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.
Stormtalon: $20.
Stormraven: $40
Eldar Dire Avengers: $12.50
Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35
Cadian Shock Troops:$15
Ogryn:$10
Single monoposed Captain:$5
Rhino: $20

I agree with some of this. The stormraven and land raider are $50 from a US discounter in the SM SF Ultra box - I thought this was fair enough to buy. I would buy more again if they were a little lower. Tac marines were $24 from the SM SF box again from a US Discounter - again a pretty fair price for a nicely detailed, clean new kit. I bought 3x SM SFs and 3x SM SF Ultras from Discount Games and though I'm going to sell off some the boxes were good value, though one thing that stood out was terminators were still $6 each which I think substantially too high for a single slightly larger than normal model.

Something that would be nice would be a discount for older kits that have long since paid off their tooling cost. Cadians are pretty icky for example imo, with outdated chunky heroic nonsense. Surely they're due for a discount due to having paid for their tooling, being outdated style wise and needing a lot of them.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 07:54:51


Post by: Herzlos


I think consistency is just as important; why is that box of 10 plastic rank and file double the cost of that box of 10 rank and file?

To get my to buy again: I think somewhere in the median of the lowest price and highest price for each figure time (core, elite, character, etc), would be fair, or about a 30-50% drop on the price of new releases.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 09:17:27


Post by: Lanrak


IF GW plc was run efficiently , and focused on growing its market share.
They could sell ALL products at 50% of current retail prices and STILL make bigger profits.

But while they focus on maximizing returns on falling sales volumes, prices will continue to climb and players will continue to look elsewhere.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 09:18:56


Post by: Fezman


Lower.

RRPs are getting so high that even with an LGS discount of 20%, I still balk at paying the prices.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 10:21:16


Post by: StraightSilver


Well given that the average margin for retail products on the whole (although not exclusively I should add) are between 48-50% and GW margins are 75% I think they could afford to drop their prices 20% and still make a good profit.

However that's the price I pay at my local Independent Stockist (25% if I spend over a £100) so actually I think their prices are about right.

I know that's controversial and a lot of people won't agree but GW products are luxury items so are going ti be expensive, plus although they are a multi national company they are still relatively small.

However I speak from a UK perspective, or more specifically a London perspective so my view may not match up demographically.

If i go to a London pub and buy a pint of beer and a burger that's the same price as a box of Tactical Marines....

Another example is computer games. The average X-Box or PS4 game is about £60 new.

It will last me no more than 6 hours playing time and then will only get played occasionally.

My man barbies last me a lot longer than that. I enjoy painting them which gives me approx 10 hours of painting per figure, and then I get to play with them too, so for me their longevity is much better than a lot of other luxury retail items.

I appreciate computer games cost a lot more money to make, but that doesn't make them any better value for money in the long run.

However I do think that prices outside of the UK are way too variable, I am amazed anybody still plays any GW games in Australia for example.

So essentially I am happy with the prices I pay now from my independent store, but would prefer GW just dropped their prices to match, but that would then mean my independent couldn't be any cheaper and would go out of business.

There is one thing that a lot of companies do that GW don't though, or at least not really, and that's Loss Leaders.

These are products that get you into a store to spend money that make little to no profit but bring people in.

I think all starter sets and maybe even core troops choices should be loss leaders. So Dark Vengeance for example could be £45 to draw in new players.

But overall I know many won't agree but I don't think the prices as they are in the UK are all that bad.

My massive bugbear though is very limited releases such as Storm Claw coming out in the middle of the month!!!

About 90% of us get paid at the end of the month GW, and I am fed up missing out on all the good stuff because by the time I get paid I can no longer get anything!!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 10:50:53


Post by: Barksdale


From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 11:47:17


Post by: Sigvatr


15 - 20% off on all miniatures.

Offer 3 versions for each codex:

a) Softcover for 20€

b) Hardcover for 40€

c) Digital for 25€


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 12:09:26


Post by: Vermis


 Barksdale wrote:
From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


Let's reciprocate that wonderful attitude and say you're the problem. GW's like a dog breed: it might have gained a reputation as a dangerous one, mostly just good for shunning until it dwindles out of existence; but the underlying cause that'll delay that is the people out there who perpetuate it or all it's unsavoury traits, seeing nothing wrong with that, prodding and siccing it on 'til it starts taking an arm and a leg.

GW's prices seem even more ludicrous in the last few years, since the hard styrene historicals boom showed how little you can charge for injection moulded figures, at a volume likely quite a bit less than GW, and still make a living. (Bricks & mortar shop expenses are a poor excuse, if they can't drum up foot traffic, build a community, and pay for themselves) As to what they should charge, I'll point at Skaven clanrats, £20 for 20; £1 a mini. Still a lot more than 50p or less per plastic historical, and I'd personally rather pay closer to that, but a quid a mini is more comfortable than what they charge for most of their ranges.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 12:21:23


Post by: Chute82


http://youtu.be/x4o-TeMHys0

The rent is to damn high!!!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 12:25:40


Post by: Da Stormlord


 Barksdale wrote:
From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


I agree. There's an independent wargaming stall 2 streets from my local games workshop, they sell 40k for 20%-40% cheaper than my local gw, but people still continue to go to the gw stall. Ever since GW announced they lost approx 3,000,000 English pounds they've cut down how many days they're open...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 12:37:06


Post by: Chute82


Da Stormlord wrote:
 Barksdale wrote:
From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


I agree. There's an independent wargaming stall 2 streets from my local games workshop, they sell 40k for 20%-40% cheaper than my local gw, but people still continue to go to the gw stall. Ever since GW announced they lost approx 3,000,000 English pounds they've cut down how many days they're open...


Do they buy their stuff at the lgs and play at the GW store?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:20:41


Post by: Barksdale



text removed.

reds8
n


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:22:20


Post by: Saldiven


If you want to see what the prices "should" be, then look at companies like Tamiya USA and see what they charge for their models. Tamiya models are, across the board, higher quality products than anything produced by GW. Despite this, similarly scaled models from Tamiya cost about 50%-75% what GW models cost. The Tamiya models have far more pieces and better detail than the GW product.

For comparison, the most expensive 1/48 scale model ground vehicle in the Tamiya line is $42.00 USD. (This doesn't count the motorized or R/C models, of course.)

Edit: I also forgot to add the fact that Tamiya is actually (by revenue) a much smaller company than GW. If Tamiya can make their models profitable at this price point, there's no reason GW couldn't.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:30:51


Post by: Rayvon


The prices seem fine to me as a regular customer in the UK, its no more expensive than any other hobby or pastime that I partake in.

If anything its the way they go about it that irritates me a tad, its almost like they just don't want any new customers bar little timmys one hit in the brick and mortar store every now and then.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:33:13


Post by: Random Dude


 kerikhaos wrote:
Ok everyone over the last few months of being a part of this amazing forum i have read countless times about how people feel unhappy because of the purchase costs of the GW lineup.

My question quite simply is "how much should these items be in your opinion and why?"

use a current example of GW items for base and provide your reasonable cost price along with reasons why......


For simplicity's sake, take everything and mark it down 40%.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:36:14


Post by: Grimskul


Definitely at least slash the prices by 50%. But more importantly I think it would be a lot better for people outside of the UK and US to have their prices properly adjusted and not inflated artificially in different regions such as Australia or Canada where we have to pay an disproportionate increase compared to the others. Having a consistent price point for different currencies is huge and alongside a more sane price point (with maybe rotating sales for different armies of the week) it would definitely boost interest and sales.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:40:16


Post by: Random Dude


I'm curious what GW's profit margin is when we're paying $4 for one SM.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:46:22


Post by: Jehan-reznor


Seeing the stuff from wargames factory GW should be slightly above that for the same amount of miniatures.

The Imperial knight should be cheaper than the dream forge's leviathan as it is smaller and has no moving parts.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 14:48:39


Post by: StraightSilver


GW's profit margin is 75% so if you are paying $4 for a Space Marine they get $3 profit.

That might sound a hell of a lot but no retailer would be able to stay in business if it wasn't making $2 out of that so GW's profits are above the average retailer but not by a huge amount.

But yes they could drop that down to a margin of 50% but then your local independent wouldn't be able to sell at a discount so stores would probably stop stocking it.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:24:24


Post by: Azreal13


Important to realise that the 70% figure is gross. Their net is in single digits IIRC, or the teens at least.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:38:53


Post by: StraightSilver


Sorry yes should have been clear, their margin is 75%, that isn't an indication of their net profit.

So if you buy a £10 kit from GW they make £7.50 profit from it but out of that you have to take all the other company expenses for manufacturing, logistics, overheads etc out of that.

That's why almost all retail companies expect a minimum 48-50% mark up or margin on their products.

A margin of 75% is considered very healthy but GW also has to maintain it's stores and staff etc.

Your local retailer will buy a £10 kit from GW for under £5 and sell it to you for £7.50. The store makes around £2.50 and GW makes around £2.50.

So GW loses a bit in sales by selling to independents but saves money in overheads so it's almost like a symbiotic relationship.

But yes GW don't make £7.50 net profit from every £10 kit they sell, so people on here saying they should reduce their prices by 50% don't realise it would put GW out of business.

Yes the hobby may be expensive, but GW aren't really ripping you off in any way.

Although there really isn't a need to produce Codexes in hard back, or to charge the same price for digital editions, so they could reduce prices on gaming materials.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:43:27


Post by: Wayniac


There's actually two problems here:

1) The price per boxed set is very high
2) The scale of the game is large, making #1 seem even more expensive because you need more boxes

For #1, I'd say comparative to Warlord Games or Mantic (I'm deliberately not using Privateer Press as some of their figures I think are priced too high as well, but is offset by the amount needed; $85 for a unit of Iron Fang Pikemen sucks, but it's bearable when you most of the time only need that one unit). A unit should be around $20-30 with ALL the potential options included (e.g. if you buy a Space Marine Tactical Squad, it should have one of each special and heavy weapon included). A tank should be around $35 for a regular-sized one, and around $45 for something like a Land Raider. Around $65 for something like the Riptide/IK/*orkanaut. Character packs should be $15, maybe $20 max.

However, #2 is the larger issue. $40 for a box of Marines isn't that bad when you only need one; it's bad when you need 2, 3 or more, plus another $40 for the transport, plus a Devastator squad to get the heavy weapons you want, plus whatever else. It's worse with WHFB since you typically have to buy 2-3 boxes to make one unit. I think if the size of the game was closer to Bolt Action (which really is like 40k done right IMO), it wouldn't be so bad however they'd still need to price comparatively.

For example, a 1,000 point Bolt Action army (which is the normal size for Bolt Action games) is about $125 and contains an HQ, around four squads of troops, 2-3 supplementary units (e.g. artillery, mortars) and a tank. GW should have 40k balanced around the same and be priced around the same, let's say $150-175 for "luxury" items.

If you ask me the larger issue is that 40k hits the two points I mentioned above, and both of these together makes the price point nearly unbearable. if it was expensive figures that you needed a small amount of (see: Infinity, Warmahordes) then the price wouldn't be too bad. Expensive, but not crazy. If it was cheap figures that you need a lot of (see: Virtually all historical 28mms), it wouldn't be that bad either because you'd be getting like 40 guys with variety for $40 or thereabouts (e.g. Perry's plastic European Mercenaries are 40 figures for ~$40 and you can build them to get the bulk of three different units; so two boxes give you three full units for $80, very reasonable IMO). GW though charges a lot and requires a lot, so the cost goes up exponentially for everything because you aren't just spending $40 on a box, you need to buy several $40 boxes, in some cases to build a single unit with the options that you want.

That's the problem.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:46:41


Post by: heartserenade


To put things into perspective, let me repost something I posted on the other thread about GW prices versus competitor prices:

GW Men-at-Arms: 31 Euros for 16 models (1.94 Euros each)

Perry Bows and Bills box: 25.1 Euros for 40 models (0.63 Euros each)

Fireforge Games Foot Sergeants: 35 Euros for 48 models (0.73 Euros each)

Mantic's Undead Skeleton Horde: 35 Euros for 40 models (0.87 Euros each)

Wargames Factory Viking Bondi: 16.35 Euros for 38 models (0.43 Euros each)

Gripping Beast Viking Hirdmen: 27.95 Euros for 44 models (0.63 Euros each)

Some plastic GW models will have a higher price per model (like Space Marines, for example). GW models literally costs 4 times more compared to than their competitors (WGF. 3 times more with Perry). And don't tell me it's about quality: the Perry Brothers are also the ones who worked under GW for many years and their historical sets have lots of extras in them for customization. And let's compare them to LotR plastic models that offers no customization and also sculpted by the Perry bros.:

GW Warriors of Rohan: 19.5 Euros for 24 models (1.63 Euros each)

It's double/triple the price of kits that offer customization.


First, they have to price themselves consistently: just looking atheir catalog, some same sized models with the same medium are double the price of another model, and that's a bit ridiculous.

Second, they could at least price themselves realistically.

EDIT: OOOPS GOT MY MATH WRONG. Fixed!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:51:32


Post by: Wayniac


Wow that puts it into perspective. Charge 4x as much for less than half the amount of figures.

Also I agree on their pricing, it seems to be random at best and outright nonsensical at worst.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 15:55:47


Post by: heartserenade


Well technically the boxes are priced quite nearly each other (GW's 31 Euros versus Perry's 25, for example). It's just that when you buy GW, you get 16. When you buy Perry, you get 40, and you pay less per box.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out that GW pricing is a little bit on the insane side.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 17:23:42


Post by: kronk


Spoiler:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Land Raider: $45

It's a large kit admittedly but it is not worth $70. It's a big plastic box with little detail or optional parts.

Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.

Marines aren't worth $4 a miniature. They aren't that nice.

Stormtalon: $20.

It's a small box.

Stormraven: $40

Another plastic box.

Eldar Dire Avengers:
$12.50

They're small plastic men with chunky details. Why are they $7 a miniature?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35

$50 god damn dollars for a small plastic box? Nope.

Cadian Shock Troops:
$15

They're Guardsman. Why are they so damned pricey?

Ogryn:
$10

They're three stupid models.

Single monoposed Captain:
$5

It's a monoposed plastic mini. $5 is a little generous too.

Rhino: $20

Small box is not worth as much as the squad it carries. It's just plastic sheets.



I can't disagree with this list.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 17:42:15


Post by: kerikhaos


it all makes sense so far, i get the thing with shop overheads and running costs but because its a chain it feeds from multiple locations and if they were doing soooo bad they would reduce shops etc but i cant say ive seen that many shut down.....being in london that is....so im not sure with this fact worldwide

But lets say they have reason to stay expensive the problem they are not offering anything nor making sales appealing by giving me a deal if i buy say X amount of things form them. Theres is nothing going on like that.

I mean even tesco has a point system in place for god sakes. I do my poxy grocery shopping and i get points added to my card for discounts and cash back stuff.....I cant believe that GW hasnt picked up on the thousand things they could do to get people buying more because it becomes more attractive to tell customers its this much but since you bought so much its this much off.

I went to dark sphere in march and wanted to buy a storm raven, i thought hey i might as well pick up a box vanguards too......the women goes to me why dont you spend another 15 quid and get 30% off instead of 25%. I didnt even think about it....i thought bring a box of death company. I saved about 35 quid which is more than another box of GW stuff if i were at their store and i only had plans to spend about 37 quid on the storm raven...

yes my wife nearly killed me but it was worth it i thought,,,,,


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 17:42:27


Post by: Desubot


Honestly

If the rules where Free (as they mostly should be while also releasing collectors addition stuff so that collectors can be happy and sell fluff stuff on the sides for fluff bunnies)

I wouldn't have any issue picking up kits at the current price

in fact i think it would encourage me to pick up other armies and even fantasy by chance.

But GW and free doesn't work well..


Edit: Also as below for the people down under.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 17:44:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It'd be nice if Australian prices weren't predicated on an outdated exchange rate (ie. £1:$3).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 17:58:37


Post by: kerikhaos


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It'd be nice if Australian prices weren't predicated on an outdated exchange rate (ie. £1:$3).


this is sadly true but i dont think its that, its the cost of exporting to AUS. they are charging on the kits the approx cost of shipping it to you also so i guess a crate load would be in the 1000s of pounds so about 2500 AUS Dollars that on about 1000 kits would be exchnage rate (current) + 2.5 ontop = 7 AUS Dollars....

i think my thinking is correct.......hmmmmmmm


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 18:13:32


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I'm fine paying extra for shipping - it's the reality of living so far away from everyone else - but 3x the cost? Come on. When it's cheaper to buy it over-seas (still paying shipping), then someone's having a go.




GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 18:18:05


Post by: Da Stormlord


 Chute82 wrote:
Da Stormlord wrote:
 Barksdale wrote:
From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


I agree. There's an independent wargaming stall 2 streets from my local games workshop, they sell 40k for 20%-40% cheaper than my local gw, but people still continue to go to the gw stall. Ever since GW announced they lost approx 3,000,000 English pounds they've cut down how many days they're open...


Do they buy their stuff at the lgs and play at the GW store?


Nah, they completely ignore the IGS


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 18:44:21


Post by: kb305


the prices were fine IMO back in fifth. 30 bucks US retail or so for a box of grey knight, 25 or less from a discounter! that is not that bad at all, IMO

the new pricing i cant stomach. 100+ for wraithknights and that crap is just too much. cut those prices almost in half and people might be able to justify it to themselves.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 18:56:26


Post by: Wargamer24


kb305 wrote:
the prices were fine IMO back in fifth. 30 bucks US retail or so for a box of grey knight, 25 or less from a discounter! that is not that bad at all, IMO

the new pricing i cant stomach. 100+ for wraithknights and that crap is just too much. cut those prices almost in half and people might be able to justify it to themselves.


I've been interested in 40k for a long time, and I just decided to start. The prices were by far the most difficult thing to stomach.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 19:06:12


Post by: jabbakahut


They should have economic tiers of models. Still make old marines with less detail and price them for beginners/apocalypse players with the higher quality models priced for collectors and serious players.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 19:20:41


Post by: Wargamer24


 jabbakahut wrote:
They should have economic tiers of models. Still make old marines with less detail and price them for beginners/apocalypse players with the higher quality models priced for collectors and serious players.


I don't know much, but that seems like more work than GW is willing to put in.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 19:47:21


Post by: Backfire


WayneTheGame wrote:
There's actually two problems here:

1) The price per boxed set is very high
2) The scale of the game is large, making #1 seem even more expensive because you need more boxes


This is in my opinion what is particularly killing Fantasy, where the amount of minis you need is even bigger. Unless you choose the Starter box armies, the amount of infantry boxes you need to buy for full sized army is considerable, and amount of what that will cost is just insane. Ditto for some more miniature-intensive 40k armies like IG or Orks. You need a rather fat wallet to build a Foot Guard or Green Tide army...
GW just doesn't have enough good "bulk" deals anymore. When infantry is generally 5 or 10 minis per box, you need to buy loads of them for ~100 mini army. I don't know if it's just blatant ripping off, or their twisted idea of promoting "premium" image of the game, but they seriously need to bring back 20 infantry guy boxes.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 19:50:12


Post by: kb305


 jabbakahut wrote:
They should have economic tiers of models. Still make old marines with less detail and price them for beginners/apocalypse players with the higher quality models priced for collectors and serious players.


No, details doesn't equal quality. production costs are likely the same for a marine vs a marine covered in purity seals, so they would never do this.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 20:03:36


Post by: sand.zzz


If they cultivated a relationship with their customers, prices would be less of an issue. A $75 Land Raider in the context of a warm, friendly, and appreciative GW feels better than it does coming from a cold, distant, somewhat predatory GW.

People notice things like manipulating game balance/rules to drive sales. Its a quick cash grab, which doesn't exactly line up with Kirbys alleged focus on the long term. People don't like doing business with greedy liars.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 20:12:33


Post by: Wargamer24


sand.zzz wrote:
If they cultivated a relationship with their customers, prices would be less of an issue. A $75 Land Raider in the context of a warm, friendly, and appreciative GW feels better than it does coming from a cold, distant, somewhat predatory GW.

People notice things like manipulating game balance/rules to drive sales. Its a quick cash grab, which doesn't exactly line up with Kirbys alleged focus on the long term. People don't like doing business with greedy liars.


My local GW store has done quite well in sales for this reason. The manager is very friendly and greets each customer by name. People keep coming back even though the prices are higher than buying models on ebay.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:13:18


Post by: Las


Consistency is the real issue as mentioned before. Something's are downright perplexing, like the stormboyz box.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:13:40


Post by: Barksdale


kb305 wrote:
 jabbakahut wrote:
They should have economic tiers of models. Still make old marines with less detail and price them for beginners/apocalypse players with the higher quality models priced for collectors and serious players.


No, details doesn't equal quality. production costs are likely the same for a marine vs a marine covered in purity seals, so they would never do this.


Well, they do have the snap fit guys which are a bit cheaper. The SM ones are 6 quid for 3 snap fits iirc. Tac squad is 25 quid for 10, but you get all the extra bitz.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:14:04


Post by: oni


Some prices are OK, but most are a little high. I think an overall decrease of 20% would be good with some items dropping as much as 30%.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:30:58


Post by: jabbakahut


I wasn't saying they would do it, please. What moron on a forum believes GW would do anything to benefit the consumers? I've been wasting my money on this stuff for 22 years, nothing changes for the better.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:41:00


Post by: daddyorchips


needs to drop by a third at least, if not 50%. for almost everything. i have about £50 a month to spend on miniatures. at the moment GW sees less than half of that. the rest goes on ebay. if they lowered their prices significantly they'd see all of that.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/28 21:42:29


Post by: Backfire


 Barksdale wrote:

Well, they do have the snap fit guys which are a bit cheaper. The SM ones are 6 quid for 3 snap fits iirc. Tac squad is 25 quid for 10, but you get all the extra bitz.


There is probably almost no difference between them in production costs. Design costs might be somewhat higher for multi-poses.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 02:35:42


Post by: TheAuldGrump


It is not merely the price that needs to be adjusted.

The packaging must also be considered - if you need ten miniatures to field a full sized squad then a box should contain ten miniatures.

If a squad can be fielded as five man or as ten man squads then it should either have the upgrades to make two five man squads with the attendant support weapons or those support weapons should be available separately. (Alternately, have packaging for both five man and ten man squads.)

If an effective squad of Ork Boyz is twenty orks, then a box of twenty orks should be available. (With the attendant support weapons.)

Then price accordingly - by box size, discounting for larger boxes.

So, if a ten man box of Space Marines is thirty dollars then a twenty ork box might cost thirty five.

If a box can be fielded as either a standard troop or as an elite then charge for standard troops - they will be used for the standard troops more often. (Yes Dark Elves, I am looking at you. Eldar? Go stand next to them.)

And, yeah... drop prices by 30 to 40%.

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 07:48:46


Post by: Mr. Oddity


I'm currently making (very slow) progress on a 40k army, combining both 40k and Fantasy bits. All my purchases so far have been on eBay. I'm probably $250 in, and will only be able to field a 500 point army. So at this rate, I likely won't be able to really get into the game (rulebook, codex, templates, etc.) for at least a year.

Now, I realize that my needing two kits per unit will drive my prices up, but this is somewhat balanced out by both general eBay discounts and the ability to purchase the specific bits I need. Does GW need to lower prices? Absolutely. Because there are thousands of people who play 40k that are in it just as much for the modelling as the gaming, and prices at their current level are restrictive at best from a modelling perspective. I agree that even a 20% discount across the board would make a huge difference. Even eliminating the inconsistencies already present in their pricing would help. For instance:

Cadian Shock Troops (10) = $29
Ork Boyz (10) = $29
Tau Fire Warriors (12 plus 2 drones) = $36.25
Necron Warriors (12 plus 3 Scarab bases) = $36.25
Eldar Guardians (10 plus heavy weapon) = $36.25
Space Marine Tactical Squad (10) = $40
Battle Sister Squad (10) = a whopping $79.80

These are all your basic troops, that every army NEEDS at least one of. Some of those aren't even a full unit. And the prices are all over the place. This definitely needs to be fixed.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 09:22:13


Post by: Barksdale


Backfire wrote:
 Barksdale wrote:
kb305 wrote:
 jabbakahut wrote:
They should have economic tiers of models. Still make old marines with less detail and price them for beginners/apocalypse players with the higher quality models priced for collectors and serious players.


No, details doesn't equal quality. production costs are likely the same for a marine vs a marine covered in purity seals, so they would never do this.


Well, they do have the snap fit guys which are a bit cheaper. The SM ones are 6 quid for 3 snap fits iirc. Tac squad is 25 quid for 10, but you get all the extra bitz.


There is probably almost no difference between them in production costs. Design costs might be somewhat higher for multi-poses.


You're missing the point mate. You are paying for the increased quality. Multi-pose plastics are a cut above the snap-fits. Hence the higher price.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 09:54:26


Post by: LuciusAR


In terms of miniatures I'd say 50% of what is being charged now.

If smaller companies like Warlord and Perry can sell plastic sets with just as much detail as GW at £20 for about 30-40 miniatures, then I see no reason why GW think £25 for 10 plastic miniatures is in any way justifiable.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 10:53:15


Post by: kerikhaos


I agree with the poster that no business thinks of it's consumer first but it should think how to draw in sales and it's just not doing that.

They have more than enough ways to promote things in various ways and I don't think their not aware that a huge part of sales are lost to cheaper retailers or eBay. So what do they do try and wingback the lost buyers? Charge extra on the idiots who still buy from GW. It's the same with any weak company attempting to level it's losses. Charge the loyal buyer more instead of rewarding him with various offers or gifts? They don't even have a point system so they can keep track how much money a buyer is giving them. They just don't care.

I was a loyal supporter at one time but then over the years I got nothing back from them not even a thanks for being with them for so many rears I started hunting for cheaper minis elsewhere. Why would I stay since I had many options to get what I wanted cheaper elsewhere they lost me as a customer as I suspect many like me did the same.

They count the loss after a year and say ok to make back these losses charge 20% more for the items. Ts is poor management and just proves that the mighty franchise of GW is governed by a bunch of fools who have no clue how to attract customers just to steal from their existing ones. This is why they are in trouble to close down if they continue this method of business. Everyone will eventually look elsewhere in the near future. I mean who will stay!??


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 11:23:32


Post by: StraightSilver


The reason smaller companies such as the Perry Twins can produce miniatures that are cheaper is that don't have the overheads that GW do.

It's the same principle that allows Amazon to sell books and other products at greatly reduced prices.

Taking the Perry Twins as an example, they sculpt their figures and outsource their production / tooling etc to another company.

Obviously they still have to pay the manufacturer but this is a flat fee.

The Perry Twins sell their product from their own webstore, or at events or to other retailers.

They don't have any overheads for stores, factories etc.

They will employ a small amount of staff, possibly a warehouse or distribution centre and may have to pay logistics costs but overall their costs and overheads will be low which is factored into their margin and allows their prices to be kept as low as possible in a competetive market (historical wargaming is actually much more competetive than Warhammer or 40K as there are multiple manufacturers).

Then take GW.

It pays a team of sculptors and designers and doesn't outsource the manufacture as it has it's own factory.

The tooling is done on machines GW is probably still paying for as they are not cheap.

They then produce all the box art and physical packaging, and pay a team of painters to paint the figures to promote them.

They have a huge work force including everything from factory workers to HR staff, canteen staff, painters, sales people etc.

They pay for their own warehouse facility and logistics.

They also have hundreds of stores with hundreds of staff to sell their product which they have to pay for.

These cost money not just in staffing but utilities etc.

Small companies such as Perry or even Dream Forge don't have these types of overheads.

All of this is taken to into account when GW set their prices and margins which is why they will always be more expensive than products from smaller independent companies.

If GW went down the Amazon route and closed all of its stores and became an online only company then yes they probably could reduce their costs significantly.

If they sold their product purely through independents and closed all of the B and M stores then yes prices would drop.

But GW will never do that.

There is a reason they don't spend a penny on advertising and that's because their B and M stores are their advertising.

A high street presence is more important than advertising and this is why Amazon are now opening High Street stores.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 11:35:46


Post by: Yonan


StraightSilver wrote:
All of this is taken to into account when GW set their prices and margins which is why they will always be more expensive than products from smaller independent companies.

All of that should reduce price and/or improve the product for the consumer, if they don't they shouldn't have been done to begin with. For example keeping sculptors ontstaff allows GW to design more products at a cheaper price per product than contracting out every time. Larger companies leverage economies of scale for cheaper products - that's kind of their thing.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 12:04:16


Post by: fmgambino


I'd like to see a tactical squad at around 20USD. I would think that is more than fair on materials alone. The manufacturing costs of GW can't be THAT expensive to make. The materials aren't that much different from any other models out there. Model planes, cars and boats have been around for ages, and you can still get a finely detailed kit for under 20USD. It would be nice to see the GW models at a much more affordable cost, this way you can attract more players and hobbyists. Not to mention it would be great for the company if more people were invested in it. Some people like to just paint and not actually play the game too.I for one love to paint models of armies I don't even play, just because I want to try a different color scheme, or to broaden my reach on the hobby.

Think about it - GW games are almost as time consuming are they are financially expensive. Models don't need to be the most expensive for people to think it is the best game out there, but price them cheaper and people will be more opt to try out different armies and combinations to really see what works for them. -Not to mention pick up the more 'serious' models that help bring an army to the next level.

On a similar note- A friend gifted me a Chaplain Xavier model over 10 years ago for around 25USD, today, that same character is dead in the fluff, and the model has no special rules, and is not usable as anything other than a generic Chaplain. There is NO NEED for a 25USD single character model, let alone 40USD for a squad.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 12:34:10


Post by: kenofyork


This is a link to a blog post that I made some time ago about hobby pricing

I apologize in advance to anyone who gets infuriated about posting links, but I think it applies. If you are going to blow a gasket and flame thrower me for wasting your time, please do not read this article.

http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

(sorry to be rude, but of late I avoid forums because I sometimes make a mistake and make others angry at me when I post)

If you look at the price of your hobby products, it might surprise you to know that actual production costs are about 15% or less. The rest is various levels of mark-ups at all levels of distribution. The part I do not understand is that people are quick to attack the company making the products, which I agree with 100% as being too high. But the people in the middle also cause a lot of the costs. If you order direct online all of those steps are bypassed, but the cost has to be maintained at the higher level to support retail distribution.

GW could sell troop boxes at $20-25 and still do quite well. ( and I mean 20 minis per box like they used to have) They add way too much cost in to the models for intangibles like fluff writing, super abilities, and fancy names.

I think GW is trying to bypass distributers, and the other company mentioned in my post also does not go through distribution. This creates a savings of about 20% for the company. Carrera passes that savings on to the customers and has the lowest price slot cars.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 12:50:13


Post by: DefiantLambdas


When I started out in 1998 they were pretty damn affordable.

I think the 3rd Edition starter was retailing at 45 Irish £s at the time.

A SM Tac Squad was maybe £12 pounds, or possibly £15.

I just remember when the Euro came in that the rate was €1.27 to 1 Punt. And the SM Box was €15-17, then within 9 months €21, a year or so €25. Now it's €35!

€31 for a lot of other armies core tactical units. With VAT (sales tax) of 23% making the real price seem sensible...

The Euro Interest rate as a currency has been artificially set at 0.1% a lot of the past 12 years.

The Irish economy was growing at a rate of 6-7% during the celtic tiger, barely scrapping growth right now.

And yet GWs Prices seem to have never moved. Improved sculpting, tech, wider ranges, more expensive books, less stores, less back room staff, and they still charge so much?

Cute "hoores" as the Irish say.

As a consumer who has gotten the bug for building little plastic men I would rather have more men for my € ,then more specialist men and a big book.

The GW store staff are also always Up-selling and encouraging purchases that don't seem to always fit individual taste or army list sense. I really regret that damned Landspeeder Storm...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 13:05:44


Post by: StraightSilver


Well that's the whole point of their margin which everybody seems to be missing.

GW's margin on their kits is 75%.

This means it costs GW 25% of the retail value to produce it.

So a kit at £10 costs them £2.50 to make.

Any retailer sets their minimum margin at 48-50% but they are rarely the manufacturer and distributor as well as retailer.

So for example Penguin publishers make books which they sell to retail stores.

Their margin will be roughly half of the book's retail value but they only sell to stores so don't have to pay for that part of the process.

So although a margin of 75% is quite high compared to other companies GW is one of a only a few that actually produces, distributes and sells through its own stores its own product.

To everybody saying their prices are too high don't understand that their prices are actually as high as they need to be.

Yes they could cut costs a bit but then they wouldn't make any money which is the point of the business.

Looking at the just released annual report though does show a drop in sales revenue of 7-8%

I don't think this has anything to do with their pricing but more to do with a huge drop in market share.

There are simply too many other products for people to buy which are drawing sales away from GW.

For over 30 years GW had a huge portion of the market share and their production and pricing models are based on this, but that simply isn't the case any more.

As well as other games systems there are also other minis companies selling kits compatible with GW systems (Victoria Lamb and Kromlech for example).

GW needs to grab back market share, and the only way it can do this is to invest in either a huge advertising campaign, a PR campaign or maybe even brand new products to compete with things like X-Wing, Drop Zone, Malifaux etc.

Funnily enough they had exactly that when they had specialist games (X-Wing = BFG, Drop Zone = Epic, Malifaux = Mordheim/Necromunda).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 14:22:26


Post by: Skinnereal


 Chute82 wrote:
Da Stormlord wrote:
 Barksdale wrote:
From a price/quality standpoint I'm fine with where they're at now. But let's face it, even if they were free, people would still find reasons to bitch.


I agree. There's an independent wargaming stall 2 streets from my local games workshop, they sell 40k for 20%-40% cheaper than my local gw, but people still continue to go to the gw stall. Ever since GW announced they lost approx 3,000,000 English pounds they've cut down how many days they're open...


Do they buy their stuff at the lgs and play at the GW store?
It might be a bit unethical to do that, but GW's prices are that high BECAUSE of the GW stores. If a 20% discount from the FLGS is enough to keep them afloat, why can't GW charge the same from their own stores?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 14:30:06


Post by: Barfolomew


 Skinnereal wrote:
It might be a bit unethical to do that, but GW's prices are that high BECAUSE of the GW stores. If a 20% discount from the FLGS is enough to keep them afloat, why can't GW charge the same from their own stores?
They think their product is a luxury good, like Tiffany's, and thus don't want to devalue it by having sales or offering discount.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 14:54:55


Post by: TheCustomLime


kenofyork wrote:
This is a link to a blog post that I made some time ago about hobby pricing

I apologize in advance to anyone who gets infuriated about posting links, but I think it applies. If you are going to blow a gasket and flame thrower me for wasting your time, please do not read this article.

http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

(sorry to be rude, but of late I avoid forums because I sometimes make a mistake and make others angry at me when I post)

If you look at the price of your hobby products, it might surprise you to know that actual production costs are about 15% or less. The rest is various levels of mark-ups at all levels of distribution. The part I do not understand is that people are quick to attack the company making the products, which I agree with 100% as being too high. But the people in the middle also cause a lot of the costs. If you order direct online all of those steps are bypassed, but the cost has to be maintained at the higher level to support retail distribution.

GW could sell troop boxes at $20-25 and still do quite well. ( and I mean 20 minis per box like they used to have) They add way too much cost in to the models for intangibles like fluff writing, super abilities, and fancy names.

I think GW is trying to bypass distributers, and the other company mentioned in my post also does not go through distribution. This creates a savings of about 20% for the company. Carrera passes that savings on to the customers and has the lowest price slot cars.


I agree. A lot of the price in a GW box of tac marines comes from their bloated company and their dumb stores. Eliminate the dumb stores, support FLGSs (THEIR REAL LIFEBLOOD!) and reduce entry costs/costs in general and GW would do a lot better.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 15:06:14


Post by: StraightSilver


 TheCustomLime wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
This is a link to a blog post that I made some time ago about hobby pricing

I apologize in advance to anyone who gets infuriated about posting links, but I think it applies. If you are going to blow a gasket and flame thrower me for wasting your time, please do not read this article.

http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

(sorry to be rude, but of late I avoid forums because I sometimes make a mistake and make others angry at me when I post)

If you look at the price of your hobby products, it might surprise you to know that actual production costs are about 15% or less. The rest is various levels of mark-ups at all levels of distribution. The part I do not understand is that people are quick to attack the company making the products, which I agree with 100% as being too high. But the people in the middle also cause a lot of the costs. If you order direct online all of those steps are bypassed, but the cost has to be maintained at the higher level to support retail distribution.

GW could sell troop boxes at $20-25 and still do quite well. ( and I mean 20 minis per box like they used to have) They add way too much cost in to the models for intangibles like fluff writing, super abilities, and fancy names.

I think GW is trying to bypass distributers, and the other company mentioned in my post also does not go through distribution. This creates a savings of about 20% for the company. Carrera passes that savings on to the customers and has the lowest price slot cars.


I agree. A lot of the price in a GW box of tac marines comes from their bloated company and their dumb stores. Eliminate the dumb stores, support FLGSs (THEIR REAL LIFEBLOOD!) and reduce entry costs/costs in general and GW would do a lot better.


I don't actually disagree with you on this, however to say that FLGSs are their real life blood is a very US centric point of view. In the rest of the World that simply isn't the case and GW relies on its retail stores to drive business and more importantly product presence.

However as company based in the UK GW seem to becoming more and more insular, as one commentator on the GW share page put it "sticking their head in the sand". They are themselves becoming more and more UK centric and i think their business model works fine in Europe but isn't working in the US, Australia or New Zealand.

I think closing down the international arms of GW and centralising everything back to Lenton was possible a bit knee jerk and hasty.

FLGSs are their main driver of sales in the US and maybe their business model should reflect that, but certainly in UK in any case independent game stores are few and far between compared to GW stores (there is pretty much a GW store on every major high street here).

That is I have to say changing, stores like Dark Sphere and Wayland / Tabletop Nation give GW stores a run for their money and that's purely down to the fact that GW's crazy stipulations on stores having games tables etc has probably back fired on them a bit.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 15:07:06


Post by: SkavenLord


 TheCustomLime wrote:
Land Raider: $45

It's a large kit admittedly but it is not worth $70. It's a big plastic box with little detail or optional parts.

Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.

Marines aren't worth $4 a miniature. They aren't that nice.

Stormtalon: $20.

It's a small box.

Stormraven: $40

Another plastic box.

Eldar Dire Avengers:
$12.50

They're small plastic men with chunky details. Why are they $7 a miniature?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35

$50 god damn dollars for a small plastic box? Nope.

Cadian Shock Troops:
$15

They're Guardsman. Why are they so damned pricey?

Ogryn:
$10

They're three stupid models.

Single monoposed Captain:
$5

It's a monoposed plastic mini. $5 is a little generous too.

Rhino: $20

Small box is not worth as much as the squad it carries. It's just plastic sheets.



I'm thinking along the lines of this. In addition:

Trygons, Gorka/Morkanaughts, etc - 40$ (or 55$ at most)

Yes, they're powerful and quite large. 80$ is too much of a stretch though.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 15:27:40


Post by: TheCustomLime


StraightSilver wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
This is a link to a blog post that I made some time ago about hobby pricing

I apologize in advance to anyone who gets infuriated about posting links, but I think it applies. If you are going to blow a gasket and flame thrower me for wasting your time, please do not read this article.

http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

(sorry to be rude, but of late I avoid forums because I sometimes make a mistake and make others angry at me when I post)

If you look at the price of your hobby products, it might surprise you to know that actual production costs are about 15% or less. The rest is various levels of mark-ups at all levels of distribution. The part I do not understand is that people are quick to attack the company making the products, which I agree with 100% as being too high. But the people in the middle also cause a lot of the costs. If you order direct online all of those steps are bypassed, but the cost has to be maintained at the higher level to support retail distribution.

GW could sell troop boxes at $20-25 and still do quite well. ( and I mean 20 minis per box like they used to have) They add way too much cost in to the models for intangibles like fluff writing, super abilities, and fancy names.

I think GW is trying to bypass distributers, and the other company mentioned in my post also does not go through distribution. This creates a savings of about 20% for the company. Carrera passes that savings on to the customers and has the lowest price slot cars.


I agree. A lot of the price in a GW box of tac marines comes from their bloated company and their dumb stores. Eliminate the dumb stores, support FLGSs (THEIR REAL LIFEBLOOD!) and reduce entry costs/costs in general and GW would do a lot better.


I don't actually disagree with you on this, however to say that FLGSs are their real life blood is a very US centric point of view. In the rest of the World that simply isn't the case and GW relies on its retail stores to drive business and more importantly product presence.

However as company based in the UK GW seem to becoming more and more insular, as one commentator on the GW share page put it "sticking their head in the sand". They are themselves becoming more and more UK centric and i think their business model works fine in Europe but isn't working in the US, Australia or New Zealand.

I think closing down the international arms of GW and centralising everything back to Lenton was possible a bit knee jerk and hasty.

FLGSs are their main driver of sales in the US and maybe their business model should reflect that, but certainly in UK in any case independent game stores are few and far between compared to GW stores (there is pretty much a GW store on every major high street here).

That is I have to say changing, stores like Dark Sphere and Wayland / Tabletop Nation give GW stores a run for their money and that's purely down to the fact that GW's crazy stipulations on stores having games tables etc has probably back fired on them a bit.


Ah, yes, I forgot about the UK gaming culture. I agree that if GW stores are their main money makers over there they should be supported. Perhaps they should adopt a multinational business strategy of catering to the needs of each country. In the UK they would make their stores community centers, in the US they would support the FLGS and so on.

Of course, this would require GW to actually know what the customer wants. They think that, like Henry Ford, they know what's best for the customer.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 15:46:01


Post by: fmgambino


Regardless of market culture, what about the online market then? orders usually have free shipping at a certain price point (65USD at GW) so international shipping costs do not apply when making medium-larger purchases.

Prices on 7th edition rules right now:
Games-Workshop.com- 85$
MiniatureMarket.com - 68$ (MO, USA)
thewarstore.com- 68$ (NY, USA)

at the very least, would it not be possible to match these prices or something similar?

If I wanted to pick up the new edition rules, codex, tactical objectives and psychic powers to stay up to date:
USA Game Store: $132.80 (Free Domestic Shipping)
GW: $166 (Free International Shipping)

Off the bat a $33 is enough to sway where I would make my purchases, not to mention leaves me with almost enough left to pick up some more troops! GW still made a profit on it btw.

Now if they were at least equally priced, I would 100% buy from GW, because of the exclusives they offer.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 15:59:27


Post by: jamesk1973


Basic troops should run $25 per box.

10 miniatures standard, with 12 for Eldar and Tau, and 15 for Orks.

Transports at $35 each.

LR at $50.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 17:43:56


Post by: jabbakahut


I agree with everything StraightSilver is saying.

It's sad the FLGS is what is needed for GW in the US and all they've done is gak on them for years.

GW has a huge legal team they keep on their payroll as well.

I want to win one of those mega lotteries and just buy the company (anybody know the current valuation)?

I think a problem they had was a huge spike resulting from the LotR property acquisition riding on top of the movie hype train. If you look through their annual reports their profits shot through the roof during this period. I assume they brought in a ton of people (good ones like designers, but also bad ones like marketers and lawyers). Today they're left trying to figure how to sustain when that ship has long sailed. They're simply too big of a company at this point to serve the consumer on the personal level that one would expect for a HOBBY company.

As a US citizen, I've always hated the GW stores. I guess they must trick enough children into getting their parents to pay an exuberant sum for toys they will likely barely assemble, never paint, then forget about next month-to pay the electric bills. But I just see how they serve the company otherwise.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 22:09:07


Post by: Gwaihirsbrother


Jamesk1973 has the right idea I think. The basic troop choice for every army should be around $25-30 and the box should include enough models to field a full size squad up to about 20 models. Then a vanilla HQ should cost about $5-10. Starter sets should include 2 of the basic troop, the vanilla HQ, a vehicle (with a discounted price) and a squad from another force org slot (also at a discounted price). Total cost would be in the neighborhood of $120.

Have most squads and vehicles range from $30-50 with prices rising based on power level. Then have premium squads and vehicles with much higher prices in the neighborhood of $75-100. Super Heavies, Titans and the like would be more than that.

Basically bring people in with a relatively cheap starter army that will get boring quickly, make them pay more to expand, and pay a premium for the real exciting stuff in the army.

As far as rules go, I think they should have a core rule set that is free, is available online and is updated quarterly (releasing new models with each update) to fine tune balance of the core rules and across all the armies (preferably a hybrid of 4th and 5th editions). Eliminate a lot of the bloat that came in with 5th and 6th (flyers, super heavies, etc. ) from the core rules, but make them available in rules supplements that are for sale. This should create a thriving tournament environment. They could probably still sell hard copy core rules and individual codexes to people who don't care about being exactly up to date all the time. Just have a regular release schedule about every three years of the current rules. Buyers of the hard copy will probably be more interested in modeling and fluff and solid offerings in those areas would further drive sales of that product.

Sell rules supplements for casual play for huge point games, squad level games, specialized, detailed terrain rules, special missions and a host of other things often accompanied by the release of a new model or models.

The point is to draw people in with a low starting cost, then when you have them hooked use constant changing variety on the periphery to prompt continuous purchase by an increasingly loyal fan base.

To me 40k is by far the most interesting and compelling space fantasy world with a game included out there despite the fact that I think the whole grim dark thing is stupid. The game has had great functionality, but the whole thing is falling apart now. If they made the changes above I think they would bring many players like myself who want to return to the game but just see it going in a bad direction back to the game, draw new blood more easily, and create greater long term loyalty.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/29 23:07:31


Post by: Wayniac


Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Jamesk1973 has the right idea I think. The basic troop choice for every army should be around $25-30 and the box should include enough models to field a full size squad up to about 20 models. Then a vanilla HQ should cost about $5-10. Starter sets should include 2 of the basic troop, the vanilla HQ, a vehicle (with a discounted price) and a squad from another force org slot (also at a discounted price). Total cost would be in the neighborhood of $120.

Have most squads and vehicles range from $30-50 with prices rising based on power level. Then have premium squads and vehicles with much higher prices in the neighborhood of $75-100. Super Heavies, Titans and the like would be more than that.

Basically bring people in with a relatively cheap starter army that will get boring quickly, make them pay more to expand, and pay a premium for the real exciting stuff in the army.

As far as rules go, I think they should have a core rule set that is free, is available online and is updated quarterly (releasing new models with each update) to fine tune balance of the core rules and across all the armies (preferably a hybrid of 4th and 5th editions). Eliminate a lot of the bloat that came in with 5th and 6th (flyers, super heavies, etc. ) from the core rules, but make them available in rules supplements that are for sale. This should create a thriving tournament environment. They could probably still sell hard copy core rules and individual codexes to people who don't care about being exactly up to date all the time. Just have a regular release schedule about every three years of the current rules. Buyers of the hard copy will probably be more interested in modeling and fluff and solid offerings in those areas would further drive sales of that product.

Sell rules supplements for casual play for huge point games, squad level games, specialized, detailed terrain rules, special missions and a host of other things often accompanied by the release of a new model or models.

The point is to draw people in with a low starting cost, then when you have them hooked use constant changing variety on the periphery to prompt continuous purchase by an increasingly loyal fan base.

To me 40k is by far the most interesting and compelling space fantasy world with a game included out there despite the fact that I think the whole grim dark thing is stupid. The game has had great functionality, but the whole thing is falling apart now. If they made the changes above I think they would bring many players like myself who want to return to the game but just see it going in a bad direction back to the game, draw new blood more easily, and create greater long term loyalty.


I think the sizes could likely vary, but give a FULL SQUAD with all the trimmings. So for example, a Tactical Squad should be around $25, contain 10 Marines plus one of each special AND heavy weapon, and enough bits to make a sergeant with whatever upgrades (do they still even have Veteran Sergeants?). Basically, it should include the maximum number (or the most reasonable number to field, e.g. if the max is 40 make it 20) and not require you to buy multiple boxes to fully kit out a single squad. That makes it still pricey, but not insane. WHFB though should be priced roughly the same as Perry or Mantic: Either a box that has a large number of guys that can be assembled as multiple units (Perry's European Mercenaries, for example) or a full squad of 20 with Command (Mantic) for infantry, 10 for cavalry. That way you don't have this bullgak where you need to buy two boxes to make ONE unit.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 06:12:30


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


StraightSilver wrote:

A high street presence is more important than advertising


Is that even really true where you live?

In the US, they would need to open hundreds more stores and staff them appropriately to even have what I assume you mean by "high street presence". It's just not feasible to assume that millions of potential customers will somehow stumble upon one of your stores at a point in time when they are willing to investigate further. Maybe if GW still had mall stores, it might be different, but no one without an Improbability Drive just stumbles across GW stores that happen to be in run-down strip malls where the rent is affordable.

Maybe GW just have no idea how big and spread out the US population is and how much of an issue transportation is. Without the deep cultural penetration GW appears to have in the UK, here they are practically invisible.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 06:50:24


Post by: Bullockist


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
StraightSilver wrote:

A high street presence is more important than advertising


Is that even really true where you live?

In the US, they would need to open hundreds more stores and staff them appropriately to even have what I assume you mean by "high street presence". It's just not feasible to assume that millions of potential customers will somehow stumble upon one of your stores at a point in time when they are willing to investigate further. Maybe if GW still had mall stores, it might be different, but no one without an Improbability Drive just stumbles across GW stores that happen to be in run-down strip malls where the rent is affordable.

Maybe GW just have no idea how big and spread out the US population is and how much of an issue transportation is. Without the deep cultural penetration GW appears to have in the UK, here they are practically invisible.


Agreed, I'm only seeing one thing on high street atm. BA-DOOM!-DOOM!- TUSH!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 10:03:10


Post by: Lockark


Here in Canada if they took the prices down at least 25% or to a level comparable to their early-mid 00's you would see more people staying with the game. A lot of people quite after their 1st army update, then they use too.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 10:46:58


Post by: rayphoton


I think a good judge of price is Reaper. They sell incredibly well and are making a good profit according to their company reports. I don't feel burned at about 5 dollar for a metal miniature (not counting the amazing deal that is bones where you can make rank and file for super cheap). Occasionally they make a bigger better miniature and it goes for 7-8. Sure they are monoposed, but as we all know plastic is cheaper than metal, so the cost of making posable miniatures is offset by the use of plastic. If GW wants to be extra greedy add a dollar or 2 for "characters" that you have to buy. People are willing to spend extra on their special needs units.

Centuarions are 72 for 3 minis.........that's insane. That box should be at most 33.

And this is not coming form "oh I cant afford my hobby cause I don't make enough." I have a good job. That is well within my budget. But I just cant get past how much it costs. Due to GW pricing I have not bought a non used miniature in 3 years. They could get 30 off me...or 0. what makes more sense?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 11:48:27


Post by: Wayniac


The biggest issues I have with their pricing is twofold:

1) It's seemingly random. Kit A is three guys for $50, Kit B is three guys roughly the same size for $70, for basically no reason.

2) Lack of value. This is the big thing. It's not so much "GW kits are expensive" it's that you don't get much for your money. 10 Space Marines for $40 is bullgak, both for the fact that you can't give them all the options available (only a Missile Launcher is included) without buying a different kit, and the fact that 10 Space Marines is a minuscule part of your "collection".

That's why I like the Bolt Action pricing. The plastic kits are multi-part and let you make a variety of squads, with options to make extras. For instance, the German Heer Infantry lets me make a command squad, two squads of troops and a sniper team if I want, or I could do two large squads, or three smaller squads, etc. There's variety. Now granted since the infantry kits are roughly all generic looking guys and its their weapons that make them different, this isn't a perfect analogy to 40k where things look differently, but there's no reason why GW couldn't sell a box of 20 or even 30 Marines for $40 and include all the heavy weapons, jump packs, command bits, etc. so I could build a combination of units as I want. Even something like that would be a step in the right direction.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/30 19:01:10


Post by: MightyGodzilla


My short answer is cut the US/UK prices by 35%. Make the rest of the world pay US/UK prices. Aussie prices are complete BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't need pretty box art either.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/31 12:45:07


Post by: Skinnereal


Just as an example of pricing analysis being done elsewhere:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/07/30/213241/amazons-ebook-math

Yes, it's ebooks, but GW sells ebooks, too:
"So, for example, if customers would buy 100,000 copies of a particular e-book at $14.99, then customers would buy 174,000 copies of that same e-book at $9.99. Total revenue at $14.99 would be $1,499,000. Total revenue at $9.99 is $1,738,000." They argue that capping most ebooks at $9.99 would be better for everyone, with the money split out 35% to the author, 35% to the publisher, and 30% to Amazon."


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/31 12:55:35


Post by: Yonan


 MightyGodzilla wrote:
My short answer is cut the US/UK prices by 35%. Make the rest of the world pay US/UK prices. Aussie prices are complete BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't need pretty box art either.

<3
I get the exact same pleasure opening a big box of unmarked mantic kickstarter goodness that I do opening a flash retail package. Cut the costs, give us cheap plastic!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/07/31 18:20:44


Post by: Litcheur


 kerikhaos wrote:
My question quite simply is "how much should these items be in your opinion and why?"


I'd say 4-5x the price of 1/72 minis from Revell/Italieri. Why? Because I'm generous, that's why!

1/72 minis are made of plastics, just like GW's, by companies that often have in-house production lines, just like GW, and even if 22mm minis have half the volume of 28mm minis, material cost is a very tiny part of the final cost. The average quality of recent 1/72 sculpts is often pretty good, even if they're not totally on par with GW's sculpts. I suspect the lack of "heroic-sized" details to have an influence here.

So, yeah, 4-5x would be a good ratio. I'm not being unfair to GW, quite the opposite: 5x is the ratio between the price tags of a Ford Focus and a Porsche Carrera...

5 Infantrymen : 5-6€ (Dire Avengers, Space Marines Scouts, Tempestus...)
10 Infantrymen : 10-12€ (Tactical Squad, Witch Elves...)
16 Infantrymen : 14-18€ (Men at Arms, Elven Spearmen)
Small Vehicle : 15-20€ (Gyrocopter, Rhino...)
Medium Vehicle : 20-25€ (Leman Russ, Predator...)
Large Vehicle : 40-50€ (Land Raider, Monolith, Flyers...)


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/01 07:58:17


Post by: The Plastic Surgeon


They're a 'mainstream' game that ultimately thrives on volume but is priced like a premium niche set of models for display.

Hence, if the game itself favour larger model count armies, then they need to adjust the price to reflect a decent return in the game meta per unit purchased whilst keeping in mind that plastic is cheap and these are ultimately gaming, not display models.





GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/01 10:34:32


Post by: kerikhaos


I still think they could try and think along the lines of what the customer would find appealing. I for one don't believe for one sec that they are actually losing anything profit wise otherwise it would force the company (like it or not) to reduce prices or making buying in bulk more offerable.

Logically anyone in retail who stood at this crossroads of being at loss would consider reducing costs or shutting down. To continue as is means to me their claims are a load of cack. Their just upset their greed isn't being fulfilled to the max is why they are moaning.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/01 11:28:17


Post by: Herzlos


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The packaging must also be considered - if you need ten miniatures to field a full sized squad then a box should contain ten miniatures.


It's not so much about providing the max squad size in a box, but a reasonable amount that gives me an optimum way to get the the max size. What annoys me more is squads of 3-5 or 3-10 that come in boxes of 3. To field 5 I need to buy 2 boxes and have a spare, to field all 10 I need 4 boxes and 2 spares.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/01 18:05:14


Post by: kerikhaos


Herzlos wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The packaging must also be considered - if you need ten miniatures to field a full sized squad then a box should contain ten miniatures.


It's not so much about providing the max squad size in a box, but a reasonable amount that gives me an optimum way to get the the max size. What annoys me more is squads of 3-5 or 3-10 that come in boxes of 3. To field 5 I need to buy 2 boxes and have a spare, to field all 10 I need 4 boxes and 2 spares.


Agreed, they need to rework their packs which means less packaging, less production and results in cheaper costs for more minis in a pack


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/01 18:34:32


Post by: Pacific


No price reduction would convince me to play 40k for the time being, with the rules in the current state they are, and the current influx of Playmobil-esque giant plastics carpet-bombing the poor bloody infantry.

But, I would probably get some of the LoTR range if they were something like 50-66% of their current asking price. The current price just seems like price-gouging, and unfortunately my sense of principle outweighs how much I want the minis..


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 13:00:12


Post by: chnmmr


I think GW prices are a little high, but thats why I buy from my FLGS for 15% off. You get what you pay for. Sturdy models with great detail and lots of options.

Lowering the price of kits (50% from what people are saying o_O) causes its own problems. The moulds will wear out a lot faster and they are -not- cheap. Would GW be able to keep up with demand?

And I really doubt that if armies were 50% cheaper that people would buy double the amount of stuff. They'd just spend the money on other things.

And if they do cut their margins that much, I REALLY doubt they would have FLGS sell their wares because the margins wouldn't make it worth it. You're not getting that 50% reduction then a further reduction buying at a FLGS. 50% would destroy GW. Heck having margins of 100% isn't much considering clothes have a margin of 300%!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 13:11:30


Post by: Yonan


chnmmr wrote:
I think GW prices are a little high, but thats why I buy from my FLGS for 15% off. You get what you pay for.

Have you bought "finecast" before? Kind of puts a damper on that ; p


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 13:24:27


Post by: filbert


chnmmr wrote:

Lowering the price of kits (50% from what people are saying o_O) causes its own problems. The moulds will wear out a lot faster and they are -not- cheap. Would GW be able to keep up with demand?



The moulds for plastic kits (ie the majority of kits that GW produce) are aluminium. They don't wear out or at least, not after decades of continual use.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 13:25:32


Post by: chnmmr


 Yonan wrote:
chnmmr wrote:
I think GW prices are a little high, but thats why I buy from my FLGS for 15% off. You get what you pay for.

Have you bought "finecast" before? Kind of puts a damper on that ; p


Oh I hate finecast. I like to pretend it doesn't exist :S Blocky finecast models? Sure. Finecast models with long staffs, spikes etc? No thanks I'll take OOP metal thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 filbert wrote:
chnmmr wrote:

Lowering the price of kits (50% from what people are saying o_O) causes its own problems. The moulds will wear out a lot faster and they are -not- cheap. Would GW be able to keep up with demand?



The moulds for plastic kits (ie the majority of kits that GW produce) are aluminium. They don't wear out or at least, not after decades of continual use.


Yes, but if its expected they sell 2 to 3x more for the massive price drop, the moulds will be replace much faster. So much reduced profit per box with more moulds needed is simply reduced profit. The space marine bike sprue is a prime example. It is old enough that an assembled bike does not line up well. If many more bikes were sold, that sprue would have had to be replaced at least once if not twice.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 19:37:57


Post by: vipoid


 TheCustomLime wrote:
Land Raider: $45

It's a large kit admittedly but it is not worth $70. It's a big plastic box with little detail or optional parts.

Space Marine Tactical Squad: $25.

Marines aren't worth $4 a miniature. They aren't that nice.

Stormtalon: $20.

It's a small box.

Stormraven: $40

Another plastic box.

Eldar Dire Avengers:
$12.50

They're small plastic men with chunky details. Why are they $7 a miniature?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:$35

$50 god damn dollars for a small plastic box? Nope.

Cadian Shock Troops:
$15

They're Guardsman. Why are they so damned pricey?

Ogryn:
$10

They're three stupid models.

Single monoposed Captain:
$5

It's a monoposed plastic mini. $5 is a little generous too.

Rhino: $20

Small box is not worth as much as the squad it carries. It's just plastic sheets.



I think this sums it up well.

Also, I'd like models with the option of taking special weapons to actually come with those weapons - rather than, say, having to buy 3 squads to get one squad's worth of special weapons. Hell, if I recall correctly, IG infantry have to buy some completely separate metal(!!) models just to get a meltas and plasmagun.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/02 23:51:32


Post by: tyrannosaurus


I'm with TheCustomLine too, those prices look about right. I very rarely buy direct from GW, but I wont pay more than £3 maximum per standard model from Ebay, and maybe £5 for a character.

My biggest issue with the price increases is that there is no consistency. I was inspired to do an analysis of price increases while reading an old White Dwarf. Some kits have seen huge percentage price increases, and some have seen much less, despite the content of the kit staying the same. This just proves the pricing policy is "what we think we can get away with", and whacking on a big chunk whenever that army gets an update. Making prices consistent would help GW avoid a lot of the hate. Completely agree that their exchange rates, particularly for Australia, are atrocious. I'm surprised anyone in Oz can still afford to play.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 09:47:42


Post by: Rumbleguts


I don't mind the cost of the figures for the most part. The point to cost ratio for some things are bad enough to make it unfeasible to field some units.

What really burns me is the cost of the rules. No need for hardbacks to jack up the price $20. No need for pages and pages of color pictures, a dozen would be fine. And the cost of the digital formations, $16 for 1 page worth of rules that they don't even have to make a physical copy of is absolutely indefensible.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 09:52:44


Post by: vipoid


The other aspect of course is that all those nice pictures of painted models are arguably nothing more than adverts for their product range.

Hence why in the 5th and 6th edition book they put them between the unit entries and point cost sections - so that you see them over and over when you build your armies.

(And, in 7th they just made their pictures take up about 2/3 of each unit's entry - with the rules crammed in at the bottom).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 10:18:10


Post by: Dust


Its a complicated question. On the one hand if you design something, make it, and provide it to customers you should also be able to dictate the price at least to an extent. After all how else would one gauge artistic talents and vreative works? However by catering to heavily to particular demographic or pricing bracket you can deter customers from other markets... or even drive away previous customers.

I'm really not one to ask about pricepoints. I designed a swimsuit a while back for work that is currently being sold for $730. Its not a price that I dictated but rather a figure devised by the company that hired me. I'm happy with the percentile that I receive and I'm told that the suit is selling nicely. But it's still only about $80 of raw material and that's being generous.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 10:45:31


Post by: Retrogamer0001


How in the name of God can GW justify charging 79.99 for a box of ten Battle Sisters? Are they on bath salts or something?

What gets me, aside from the high prices, are the lack of sales. Would a weekly, rotating sale of a different model at 15-25% off really hurt GW's image that much? I can't see how it would. If anything, it would spark more interest and dialogue about that model! People would buy it and others in that army, and sales would increase for the normally-priced models.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 10:54:12


Post by: Yonan


Anyone think the GW bundles are a good way to go for both GW and us? Are the prices in the bundles acceptable, or does them being bundled kill it? For example from the SM SF and SF Ultra ($US from a discounter):

Land Raider: $51 (RRP $80)
Storm Raven: $51 (RRP $80)
New SM Tac Squad: $24 (RRP $40)
Terminators: $30 (RRP $50)

The tac squad is even cheaper than recasts like this for example. 30% bundle discount +~20-25% discounter discount.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 10:59:59


Post by: vipoid


 Yonan wrote:
Anyone think the GW bundles are a good way to go for both GW and us? Are the prices in the bundles acceptable, or does them being bundled kill it?


Well, for a start, we'll have to assume that the bundle does indeed offer a discount - rather than one of their "deals" where several models are bundled together for the sum total of those models.

Anyway, when I look at a lot of those deals, I find myself thinking "yeah, that's about what those models should cost *before* the deal."

They're better than nothing... usually, but they're still little more than a band-aid over GW's massive pricing issue.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 16:09:51


Post by: jabbakahut


I picked up the Battle company (bottom of the book shelf), I believe it was 450$ USD. That comes down to 45 bucks for a 10 man squad and rhino, pretty good deal I think.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 16:17:41


Post by: TheSilo


 Pacific wrote:
No price reduction would convince me to play 40k for the time being, with the rules in the current state they are, and the current influx of Playmobil-esque giant plastics carpet-bombing the poor bloody infantry.

But, I would probably get some of the LoTR range if they were something like 50-66% of their current asking price. The current price just seems like price-gouging, and unfortunately my sense of principle outweighs how much I want the minis..


Yea, I originally bought all my models ten years ago, then took a long hiatus. I would never have gotten into the game at today's prices.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 16:46:47


Post by: jamesk1973


40% drop off of rrp would bring me back.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:25:29


Post by: kerikhaos


What would be the result if we all (here at dakka) signed some kind of petition or letter regarding this matter.

We could send them also a copy of this thread so it's clear what people think about their strict sales prices with chance of customer discounts or benefits.

Would it push them to rethink things through or would it just get the silent treatment and covertly become binned at the same time of delivery?

What would we as a community do to maybe get some kind of light shed on this subject.

I have to say this though for customer support they did quickly resolve my personally tiff with a local games workshop near Kensington high st in London. During work hours I dragged myself with my 2 year old kid in a pram to get there just before closing to find out they had closed without warning to the public to host some little snot nosed posh kids birthday party where they didn't want to serve customers. I was like WTF??? You serious? I reported the cow who blocked me entrance from my fury and to my surprise I was gifted £15 in vouchers for my troubles. Which I went on to purchase my sanguinary guard for just a fiver. Not bad I thought in the end.

Why don't they just do things like this to reward it's paying customers in the first place. I spent for example 200 quid in on year. If they gave me a £20 voucher to say thanks valued customer I would feel chuffed. Even for a poxy 10% return.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:30:11


Post by: RatBot


 kerikhaos wrote:
What would be the result if we all (here at dakka) signed some kind of petition or letter regarding this matter.

We could send them also a copy of this thread so it's clear what people think about their strict sales prices with chance of customer discounts or benefits.

Would it push them to rethink things through or would it just get the silent treatment and covertly become binned at the same time of delivery?

What would we as a community do to maybe get some kind of light shed on this subject.


They wouldn't care one whit.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:33:27


Post by: kerikhaos


Hmmm the other thing I've overlooked with they don't do discounts is the blood angels battle force. This with individual boxes would be worth around £89 but they charge I think £70 so they save you a big €19.

Not forgetting if you get this from dark sphere it comes to an ultra low £52.

So there is something that doses save you some credits at GW. I'm sure there must be other gear too


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:40:04


Post by: jabbakahut


 RatBot wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
What would be the result if we all (here at dakka) signed some kind of petition or letter regarding this matter.

We could send them also a copy of this thread so it's clear what people think about their strict sales prices with chance of customer discounts or benefits.

Would it push them to rethink things through or would it just get the silent treatment and covertly become binned at the same time of delivery?

What would we as a community do to maybe get some kind of light shed on this subject.


They wouldn't care one whit.


Haha, read the GW annual report thread.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:48:34


Post by: RatBot


 jabbakahut wrote:
 RatBot wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
What would be the result if we all (here at dakka) signed some kind of petition or letter regarding this matter.

We could send them also a copy of this thread so it's clear what people think about their strict sales prices with chance of customer discounts or benefits.

Would it push them to rethink things through or would it just get the silent treatment and covertly become binned at the same time of delivery?

What would we as a community do to maybe get some kind of light shed on this subject.


They wouldn't care one whit.


Haha, read the GW annual report thread.


Everyone who hasn't really should.

We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 18:56:12


Post by: vipoid


Something else to consider - if GW did drop their prices, then in order for sales volume to make up for the loss of profit per model, they'd likely have to attract back new customers or tempt back existing players who stopped buying due to outrageous prices/rules. And, currently, neither seems likely.

With regard to the latter, GW has spent about a decade doing everything it can to alienate its playerbase. So, expecting a large number of them to return would be dicey (pun entirely intended), to say the least.

But, whatever, who cares as long as there are new players to replace them, right? Well, imagine you've heard a bit about this "warhammer 40k" thing. You've maybe heard a few scraps, but little else. Now, go on the GW website and pretend you're looking to find out more about the game and/or the setting.

Do you see the problem? The complete lack of *anything* telling you what 40k is or what it's about. The complete lack of any articles to give you advice on where to start. The complete lack of any information whatsoever about what each of the races is about.

Be honest, if you went on the site with no prior information, would you even think that GW made those miniatures? Or, would you think that you'd misheard/misread the company name and ended up on some similarly-named tacky webstore by mistake?

Basically, if GW is to change prices, then they need to change their mindset too. More specifically, they need to start considering their customers (and potential customers) and human beings - rather than walking wallets.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 19:19:20


Post by: kerikhaos


I agree totally - their mindset needs changing but for that some market managers need to get axed and a fresh campaign to begin. Thus can happen by either the company plummets into super losses or it gets bought out by another company with a head screwed on right for these things

Another example of a bad offer at GW is the box set armored might at £495, if bought in boxes? Yep £495......lame


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 19:25:27


Post by: TheSilo


I understand the inclination to have expensive forge world models, but the high entry price is killing any growth in the player base. Basic infantry should be much cheaper, and more specialist models could be priced as now.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 19:36:32


Post by: Ugavine


In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 19:48:34


Post by: Spartan089


Have you seen what Bandai does with their detailed plastic kits, that come with different colored plastic sections. A basic grade $10 kit for them would probably be a $50-60 kit for GW and it would still suck worse.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:00:25


Post by: Wayniac


 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.


Compare GW's figures to basically anyone who makes similar. Warlord and Perry especially (I'll leave Mantic out because a lot of their stuff is an acquired taste). Then look at what you pay for 10 plastic guys when other companies offer 40 for the same price.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:04:10


Post by: Retrogamer0001


So, why does GW charge 79.99 for a box of ten Sisters? I would actually like to know, there must be something up to justify such a truly outrageous price.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:06:45


Post by: Wayniac


 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So, why does GW charge 79.99 for a box of ten Sisters? I would actually like to know, there must be something up to justify such a truly outrageous price.


Because Citadel miniatures are luxury products and therefore worth a high price point.

That seems to be their entire modus operandi.

Now, since I know someone will likely make the comparison: Privateer Press sells 10 Iron Fang Pikemen for $85. Makes $79.99 for metal Sisters reasonable right? Except you tend to only need one box of Iron Fang Pikemen in a typical army for Warmachine. How many boxes of Sisters do you need to play an army? Not so equal anymore is it?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:09:40


Post by: Retrogamer0001


So they're essentially saying that if you want to play SOB, you're going to pay double to do it, essentially saying that they don't want anyone playing SOB anymore. Gotcha.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:11:49


Post by: Wayniac


 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So they're essentially saying that if you want to play SOB, you're going to pay double to do it, essentially saying that they don't want anyone playing SOB anymore. Gotcha.


Well that gives them an excuse to kill the line off. "See?! Nobody is buying it!!!"


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:21:43


Post by: kerikhaos


WayneTheGame wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So they're essentially saying that if you want to play SOB, you're going to pay double to do it, essentially saying that they don't want anyone playing SOB anymore. Gotcha.


Well that gives them an excuse to kill the line off. "See?! Nobody is buying it!!!"


That is some ridiculously outrageous strategic game playing. If they put as much thought into doing what would benefit the player as much as their sale line then I'm sure things would go better for them and us


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:34:59


Post by: ninjafiredragon


 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.


Logic like this hurts my head.

Sense It could be worse, why complain? Sense I can afford it, why complain? The quality is fine, so who cares about the prices? With all the effort in design, production, and material costs, not to mention all the time spent play testing (Wait a moment...) why should we complain?

That logic is flat out wrong. sense theirs a place that sells an 80 dollar luxury hotdogs in new york, it would be ok to buy a 20 dollar hotdog somewhere else right? I mean, it could be worse. I can afford that 20 dollar hotdog, so whats the problem? That 20 dollar hotdog tasted pretty good, so it was worth it. I bet it takes allot of money to design the hotdog, produce the hotdog, and all of the costs associated with the hotdog, we must be getting a deal for the 20 dollar hotdog.

Literally the logic is terrible.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:35:30


Post by: kerikhaos


Another check on prices, the GW strike force ultra pack comes in at £190, if bought separately it would cone in at about £250. Our friends at dark sphere have the same for £142. But least GW has £60 off from buying this pack, not bad


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:36:02


Post by: Retrogamer0001


How does not making a sale translate into a good business practice? People that want to play a Sisters army are probably going to take one look at the cost of the basic troops and laugh - I know I did. If they were reasonably priced, however, people would have an incentive to buy more models for their army instead of laughing (and not buying) other models in the Sisters range. They're not only losing out on one sale but likely on many others as well.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:41:02


Post by: Wayniac


 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
How does not making a sale translate into a good business practice? People that want to play a Sisters army are probably going to take one look at the cost of the basic troops and laugh - I know I did. If they were reasonably priced, however, people would have an incentive to buy more models for their army instead of laughing (and not buying) other models in the Sisters range. They're not only losing out on one sale but likely on many others as well.


I would imagine the logic goes thus: Someone who would balk at our high prices isn't someone we want as a customer. That seems to be how they would think.

Reminds me of a Hotel Hell episode; this pompous wannabe rich guy owned a hotel in a small town, and charged really high rates. Gordon Ramsay mentioned how the rates were too high for the locals, and he says something to the effect of the locals not being the kind of clientele that he wanted to stay there.

GW seems to think the same way.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:41:34


Post by: Random Dude


 jabbakahut wrote:
I picked up the Battle company (bottom of the book shelf), I believe it was 450$ USD. That comes down to 45 bucks for a 10 man squad and rhino, pretty good deal I think.



Are those all un-built models, or did you save the boxes?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:45:19


Post by: kerikhaos


 Random Dude wrote:
 jabbakahut wrote:
I picked up the Battle company (bottom of the book shelf), I believe it was 450$ USD. That comes down to 45 bucks for a 10 man squad and rhino, pretty good deal I think.



Are those all un-built models, or did you save the boxes?


I wanted to ask the same question


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:48:22


Post by: Zatsuku


Looks like they are in shrink, so I assume unbuilt. O_O


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:51:34


Post by: Random Dude


I haven't bought any models for my upcoming Eldar army yet. I'm planning to buy/build/paint in increments. 1000 to 1500 to 1850 to 2000.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 20:53:37


Post by: Retrogamer0001


Maybe the guy robbed a GW shop? Only way I could think to afford all the stuff...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:02:07


Post by: Random Dude


 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Maybe the guy robbed a GW shop? Only way I could think to afford all the stuff...


A few years ago I walked into my FLGS and there was no one there at all. The display cabinet full of gorgeously painted miniatures (including a Warhound) was left open. I didn't take anything, and luckily, no one else did either.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:06:20


Post by: kerikhaos


Ok another price compare (sorry if I'm getting annoying) the strike force pack going for at GW for £140 and is worth £182 on its own. As always dark sphere has the same thing for £105.

Although good savings from both companies


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:08:04


Post by: Random Dude


Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:11:18


Post by: Wayniac


 Random Dude wrote:
Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.


Depends on the model. Some of them don't look that great, and don't need half as much customization options as they give.

Then some are just garbage case in point the Stormwolf or w/e (flying shoebox) and Logan Claus on Wolf-sled.

And let's not forget MURDERFANG, who hails from OMNICIDE, suffers from MURDERLUST and kills stuff with MURDERCLAWS


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:16:30


Post by: vipoid


 Random Dude wrote:
Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.


Some models look amazing... many others don't.

About half the vehicles they sell are just 'a box with tank-tracks' or 'a box with wings'. Nicely detailed boxes, but boxes nevertheless.

Also, there are just a lot of models that are decent, but not worth the price they charge. e.g. Immortals look ok, but I just can't see them as being worth £5 per model.

And, they also have a lot of models that are just plain ugly - yet they still charge premium prices for them. Look at either of the 'bat' units in VCs and tell me they look amazing.

Finally, I don't necessarily want extra detail (or whatever it is that makes them look amazing, at the cost of jacking up the price) on all my units. It's fine on big monsters and characters, but on an infantry unit that I'm going to have several boxes of? I'will happily sacrifice a bit of detail if it means keeping the cost down.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:20:25


Post by: Random Dude


 vipoid wrote:
 Random Dude wrote:
Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.


Some models look amazing... many others don't.

About half the vehicles they sell are just 'a box with tank-tracks' or 'a box with wings'. Nicely detailed boxes, but boxes nevertheless.

Also, there are just a lot of models that are decent, but not worth the price they charge. e.g. Immortals look ok, but I just can't see them as being worth £5 per model.

And, they also have a lot of models that are just plain ugly - yet they still charge premium prices for them. Look at either of the 'bat' units in VCs and tell me they look amazing.

Finally, I don't necessarily want extra detail (or whatever it is that makes them look amazing, at the cost of jacking up the price) on all my units. It's fine on big monsters and characters, but on an infantry unit that I'm going to have several boxes of? I'will happily sacrifice a bit of detail if it means keeping the cost down.



Vehicles like Wave Serpents have a much nice aesthetic than SM tanks. Also, boxy vehicles for SM fit the fluff of them being durable and functional.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:25:19


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 TheSilo wrote:
I understand the inclination to have expensive forge world models, but the high entry price is killing any growth in the player base. Basic infantry should be much cheaper, and more specialist models could be priced as now.
It seems that very few folks have a difficulty with Forge World being expensive - they put in the effort, and typically deserve the accolade of being a premium line of models.

Heck, even I don't complain about Forge World pricing.

But when you realize that some of the GW models are just as expensive as their FW counterparts....

The Auld Grump - I like the DKoK....


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/03 21:28:13


Post by: vipoid


 Random Dude wrote:

Vehicles like Wave Serpents have a much nice aesthetic than SM tanks.


Indeed.

 Random Dude wrote:
Also, boxy vehicles for SM fit the fluff of them being durable and functional.


Granted, but they're still boxes with wheels.

However well they might fit the theme, they're not exactly pushing the envelope when it comes to creative vehicle designs.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 00:30:37


Post by: Commissar-Danno


I think the prices, as they are right now, should be reduced by 33%. At least it would be some what more reasonable.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 00:35:03


Post by: Random Dude


I think hobbies of all kinds are becoming more expensive. It not as if GW invented price increases. We complain because it is our main hobby, but other hobbies have become just as expensive (if not more).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 00:41:25


Post by: jabbakahut


 vipoid wrote:

Now, go on the GW website and pretend you're looking to find out more about the game and/or the setting.

Do you see the problem? The complete lack of *anything* telling you what 40k is or what it's about. The complete lack of any articles to give you advice on where to start. The complete lack of any information whatsoever about what each of the races is about.

Be honest, if you went on the site with no prior information, would you even think that GW made those miniatures? Or, would you think that you'd misheard/misread the company name and ended up on some similarly-named tacky webstore by mistake?

Basically, if GW is to change prices, then they need to change their mindset too. More specifically, they need to start considering their customers (and potential customers) and human beings - rather than walking wallets.


This is sad and really true. I remember when they actually had a pitiful hobby section, now that is even gone. What got me hardcore into the hobby was White Dwarf (pre-internet as we know it). If they were to design their site to be a hobby site, filled with information, then the sales side of the site is the obvious place to go to buy a new squad you just watched a battle report on, or go to buy that new squad you just watched a tutorial on how to paint. I feel this is the no brainer that GW needs. That's the role that WD filled. I would read stuff, learn stuff, get excited and go buy stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Random Dude wrote:
 jabbakahut wrote:
I picked up the Battle company (bottom of the book shelf), I believe it was 450$ USD. That comes down to 45 bucks for a 10 man squad and rhino, pretty good deal I think.



Are those all un-built models, or did you save the boxes?

Sadly that is a portion of my army still in a box.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 00:45:25


Post by: The Dwarf Wolf


Free rules. Books for fluff, with rules added in as bonus. Digital edition with bling, who dont cost the same as the actuall solid books.

2/3 of the cost per mini.
Rank and File cheaper (2 dollar per model if posable, 1 per model if not).
Characters for 10 dollar at max. Maybe 15 or 20 for BIG characters, like the vehicle ones (Ghazgull, The DA Land Speeder guy, etc).
Vehicles ranging from 20 to 40 dollars, 50 for big ones filled with options.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 00:46:33


Post by: jabbakahut


 vipoid wrote:
 Random Dude wrote:
Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.


Some models look amazing... many others don't.

About half the vehicles they sell are just 'a box with tank-tracks' or 'a box with wings'. Nicely detailed boxes, but boxes nevertheless.

Also, there are just a lot of models that are decent, but not worth the price they charge. e.g. Immortals look ok, but I just can't see them as being worth £5 per model.

And, they also have a lot of models that are just plain ugly - yet they still charge premium prices for them. Look at either of the 'bat' units in VCs and tell me they look amazing.

Finally, I don't necessarily want extra detail (or whatever it is that makes them look amazing, at the cost of jacking up the price) on all my units. It's fine on big monsters and characters, but on an infantry unit that I'm going to have several boxes of? I'will happily sacrifice a bit of detail if it means keeping the cost down.


I started to feel things were tanking (lol) when they had to release so many effing rhino varients. I know that it ammount to weapon swaps, but I just feel the vehicle smorgasbord started there. Some armies get one or two different tanks, and some have dozens.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 19:01:45


Post by: kerikhaos


I agree that if GW was selling at the same rate as total war gamer, dark sphere or element games they would win back people like me who looks for bnib stuff elsewhere.

Is it because this calculated expectation to win more buyers too high a risk for them or are they just fools for real??


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 22:45:36


Post by: Ugavine


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.


Logic like this hurts my head.

Sense It could be worse, why complain? Sense I can afford it, why complain? The quality is fine, so who cares about the prices? With all the effort in design, production, and material costs, not to mention all the time spent play testing (Wait a moment...) why should we complain?

That logic is flat out wrong. sense theirs a place that sells an 80 dollar luxury hotdogs in new york, it would be ok to buy a 20 dollar hotdog somewhere else right? I mean, it could be worse. I can afford that 20 dollar hotdog, so whats the problem? That 20 dollar hotdog tasted pretty good, so it was worth it. I bet it takes allot of money to design the hotdog, produce the hotdog, and all of the costs associated with the hotdog, we must be getting a deal for the 20 dollar hotdog.

Literally the logic is terrible.

So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants? Do you go bug Ferrari about the price of their cars. I mean, a Ferrari still gets you from A to B just as much as a Skoda, and a Skoda is more reliable. Why shop at Waitrose when you can shop at Aldi?

So no, it's not terrible logic at all. It's every day marketing. I genuinely feel there is quality in GWs products that I am prepared to pay for, just as much as people pay for quality in pretty much every other product on the market. Now quality is quite often a personal preference and what people see as quality is something different altogether. From your post I guess you don't value GW models as much as I do, which I can fully understand, everyone has their own priorities and values.

Now I do buy other products and see the value in them. Warlord Games are great value. Wizkids Heroclix are over-priced tat, but I like the game and still buy them.

Personally I put value in what I get out of a product. I don't collect Action Figures any more because they just sit on a shelf. I get more enjoyment out of 40K than any other game right now so am happy to pay the prices.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/04 23:06:07


Post by: Yonan


Given I can buy a 2 terrabyte hard drive for less than $100, it's pretty hard to say that the effort going into designing the Marneus Calgar kit warrants it being the same price, when it probably costs a couple dollars for each kit to be produced.

Plastic toys should not cost as much as they do but we pay it because we like our plastic toys. There is a limit though and for what seems to be enough people now, it seems to have been reached. I too can spend something like $300 on hobbies a week but when offered a choice of Cadians or double the quantity of Eisenkern at better quality with more options, the choice is simple. As more competing ranges come to market, fewer GW ranges will see purchases Space Marines will have direct competitors with hard plastic Mantic Enforcers and the even better Dreamforge Valkir by the end of the year. GWs top selling range seeing stiff competition for once and at much better prices.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 01:04:36


Post by: Throt


I posted this in another thread and thought I would bring it here with a few changes because...
I swear I am a glutton for punishment because I always come to these threads to try to convince people that this entire topic is opinion and each opinion is as valid as the next. We will never really get anywhere because it is entirely based on subjective opinion.
GW prices are just fine and this is a list of reasons why I disagree with the minority out there. Would I like them to be less. Well yeah. Free would be awesome but that isn't going to happen.

Most people believe GW prices are just fine. This is true for me as it is for many others. This is a luxury, as most hobbies are. It is up to the individual what to buy.
A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. And they swear they are representative of the whole. Most often I believe this has more to do with their own difficulties affording the product than the actual price itself. If they could go out and buy anything, whenever they wanted, they would possibly complain less. (some people just like to complain)

The other frequent complaint amongst the minority is that prices have gone up over the years.
They have. Most everything has. It is a complaint and a valid reason for an individual to choose not to buy, but it is not representative of any fact other than they cost more now.

The idea that other companies are cheaper is also a fallacy.
dollar for dollar Price per model is generally the same if not higher, plus the average competitors kits are not always as good a value either.
The most often example is Privateer Press.
A box of Invictors is $45 msrp. For 10 models in 3 maybe 4 poses. (which they attempt to hide by rotating the same sculpts) This is the same through most of their range.
GW kits give you 10 models plus option, plus extra bits for a similar price point. Often about $5 less for core troop.
PP Collossals/gargantuan are an average of $20 more that the large kits from GW and tend to be smaller and again lack different options.
We do have other companies making fantastic models, like some of the Japanese mecha kits, but these are display models not gaming models. Some of the GW models are already fragile enough.
As for good versus bad models that is entirely subjective just as choosing to play space marines or tyranids. The aesthetic is up to you.
.
Another fallacy claimed to be proof that it is too expensive is that people can/do buy it for a discount. All this shows is the desire for the product and that other vendors are willing to attempt to make up profit on volume.
The fact that they can accomplish this shows that the item is highly desirable.
The higher and lower prices based on usage or popularity is standard marketing. GW is not doing anything different to any other company. Xbox knows that most people will need an extra controller and doesn't include it so you can buy another one by itself. More popular games start at $60 less popular as low as $30 (I'm guessing on those prices because I don't play xbox so I don't know how specific they are but I do see different prices on the shelves.)

Cost of entry to play is too high. (which for some it may be too high but it is not proof of unreasonable pricing only that it is too high for that individual.). Play lower points and the entry cost gets lower and lower.
Other examples include the idea that you can play with less models in other games.
Depending on the army you choose you can lower the model count, then lower the points and it becomes even less.
I have a 1500 point Deathwing army with 19 models. I could make a 1500 point army of a different kind with well over 200 models.
I don't blame the company for the choice of army I play and personally I think it is disingenuous to blame the company.

The ideas that other companies do 'X' and GW doesn't is not valid proof either because turning the table shows the same general idea. I.e GW does 'X' so the other company should.
For example some state how company X gives the rule book for free, so GW should. yet it is just as simple to say GW get $50 for a book so company X should charge $50.
No one seems to ask if the reason they are giving the book away is because no one feels that that book is worth $50, where as if people are buying GW books then they have found value in that book.(Theory of Subjective value)

The biggest challenge to overcome is that your like/dislike is just as valid as everyone elses. It does not prove anything other than your feelings. And for some strange reason GW is the company people love to hate.
Your purchase or lack there of shows your stance. That is all.
The fact that people have such angst towards GW but go to GW forums, follow their product and continue to discuss all things GW is really quite telling.
One persons trash is another persons treasure.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 01:07:14


Post by: Vasarto


Ork Trukk - $20.00
Starter Set - $60.00
Codexes - $40.00
Terminators and all other infantry models - $50.00 or less.
All models above 60...reduced to 60.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 01:16:03


Post by: Yonan


 Throt wrote:
Most people believe GW prices are just fine.

When your post is based on this false premise, it's not really worth reading. The rapidly declining sales along with numerous accounts of players stating it's at least partially due to prices show it as incorrect.

edit: I skimmed the rest and yeah, so much... baloney? I believe is the US term for it.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 01:18:26


Post by: Azreal13


Apropo of nothing.

Furioso Dreadnought Kit, a plastic kit that allows you to make 3 different Dreadnoughts, with all relevant arm options, various sarcophagus lids etc £28, released 2011.

New Bjorn/Space Wolf Ven Dread/Murderfang kit, all of the above. £33.

So a 20%+ hike cause reasons.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 02:16:32


Post by: hammeyaneggs



Do you go bug Ferrari about the price of their cars. I mean, a Ferrari still gets you from A to B just as much as a Skoda, and a Skoda is more reliable.



/off topic
What the heck is a Skoda?

/Back on topic

I am a bit of a capitalistic libertarian in my views on this. There are three points of view on this

a) Prices are too high and should be lower

b)Prices are perfect where they are

c)Prices are fine now, and even alright if they were a little higher



Here's the point to this thread... no matter which one you pick, its completely valid and it doesn't matter; because GW will charge what the market will bear and then a little more if possible.

Their responsibility is not to the game players or even the customers who buy their products.... Their responsibility is to increase shareholder wealth... And many times corporations do this by sacrificing long term profits for short term gains.


GW is a great example of what can happen when you take a niche product and put accountants in charge of its growth. Will it come back to be the GW of old? nah... they are gone. Unless the company is bought out and becomes a privately held company again, a scenario which is near impossible at this point, GW will continue down this path.


I personally hope that Fantasy Flight, Mantic games, and Privateer Press (among many others) do not go public and fall victim to this. It is hard enough for game companies to become successful, I would prefer that the ones that do are able to stay true to their games and their vision rather than becoming a slave to a stock price.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 02:22:37


Post by: TheAuldGrump


Followed by GW sinking in a stream of bubbles, leaving their shareholders wondering what went wrong....

GW is not charging what the market will bear, they are charging what the market will not bear - and are suffering therefrom.

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 02:45:47


Post by: Throt


 Yonan wrote:
 Throt wrote:
Most people believe GW prices are just fine.

When your post is based on this false premise, it's not really worth reading. The rapidly declining sales along with numerous accounts of players stating it's at least partially due to prices show it as incorrect.

edit: I skimmed the rest and yeah, so much... baloney? I believe is the US term for it.


You are assuming it is a false premise with no understanding of the post. I can easily say you do not understand the post because you admitted you skimmed it and did not read it. You are free to make your assumptions.
Skimming a post is not a very efficient way of determining baloney. But it is helpful to maintain your personal bias.

Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.
If you read my post you would see that I believe there to be a vocal minority screaming about prices. You would have also seen that I am not saying it doesn't happen but it is FAR from the root cause.
As a Mod you can probably see who is posting in these topics. Typically it is the same people, the accounts are numerous but often it is the same people repeating themselves. Many people just don't care to get involved and peacefully enjoy their games.
Most often when I decide to jump into these on whatever site, it is often the same names over and over.

Other than baloney do you have anything to show the declining sales is related more to prices than the other factors that apply to all business? Like the economy.
If I remember rightly sales fell by 9% mostly due to a poor year in North America which is not a surprise as most companies suffered over prior years and were only able to move ahead through restructuring.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 03:01:17


Post by: Azreal13


hammeyaneggs wrote:

Do you go bug Ferrari about the price of their cars. I mean, a Ferrari still gets you from A to B just as much as a Skoda, and a Skoda is more reliable.



/off topic
What the heck is a Skoda?



No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.

FYI Skoda are a former Eastern European car manufacturer (Czech, IIRC) lampooned mercilessly throughout the 70s and into the 80s for their poor build quality and reliability, before being purchased by Volkswagen and turned into one of those brands which lacks the caché of some of the more well-known marques, but has been quietly churning out good quality, well built and competitively priced cars for a number of years, with the odd weirdo like the Yeti and their range of high performance diesels (VRS's IIRC)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Throt wrote:


Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.


Which would be a solid argument if GW hadn't continued to maintain their financial performance throughout the worst of the financial crisis, largely unaffected it seems, and certainly they claim to be "recession proof." Only now, as most major economies are returning to growth, are GW showing signs of struggle.

The UK economy returned to pre-crisis levels for the first time the week before GW published their financials this year, and the country is experiencing record levels of employment (admittedly the quality of that employment isn't necessarily uniformly great, but employment nonetheless.) While I don't doubt there are individual cases, like yourself, where personal economic factors have curbed spending, and it would take a fool to try and claim the financial crisis had no effect whatsoever on any business, but to try and use it to explain the recent downturn in revenue? Sorry, the timing just doesn't fit.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 04:56:27


Post by: Smacks


 Ugavine wrote:
So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants?

Sure, I certainly do make similar complaints about expensive restaurants. There are plenty of places (and brands) that overcharge just to be more exclusive. I have never found that paying over the odds guarantees better food or service (usually the opposite). Nothing grinds my gears like a place that charges £100 a head for a meal that consists of one slither of kani and a carrot cut into a star shape. Those places can bugger off!

But when it comes to value I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer. It depends on your attitude and what you consider a fair comparison. When I eat at expensive places I tend to look at my food, realize it's the exact same stuff I can get anywhere, and then feel that I've been scammed. I don't really get it. But perhaps someone else will see some value in the place that I didn't. Maybe they got to post on their facebook that some D-list celebrity (who I'd never have heard of) was eating there at the same time, and that made it all worthwhile. Who knows what drives other people?

Certainly the 'exclusive' 'elite' business model has worked for some brands, such as Gucci and Ferrari. But I fail to see how it is supposed to work for GW. A Ferrari is a status symbol, the advantage of owning one is that you can drive up to a girl and she'll go "Wow is that your Ferrari?" *pants come down*. Trust me when I tell you that showing girls your GW stuff does not elicit the same response (usually the opposite). And never have I spotted Winona Ryder at my flgs slipping a Deff Rolla up her jumper... It's just not that kind of product.

Personally, I think GW would need to be about 30% cheaper than it is now to get me buying again. Their paints would need to be on a par with their competitors. And as for their books... Without some assurance that the current edition will last, I'd be reluctant to even waste shelf space on them, even if they were free.

For new customers I think the barrier to entry is way too high. The prices are obviously going to put more than a minority of new customers off, which is just idiocy. Even illiterate backstreet drug pushers have the business acumen to know that "the first hit is always free". GW's business model is clearly based around the headless chicken paradigm.




GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 04:58:38


Post by: Throt


 Azreal13 wrote:


No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.


You of course are entitled to your opinion, but you don't think that GW is the prestige brand of the niche market of table top wargaming? Wargaming is not mainstream.
GW is years ahead of the majority of their competitors in almost every aspect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Throt wrote:


Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.


Which would be a solid argument if GW hadn't continued to maintain their financial performance throughout the worst of the financial crisis, largely unaffected it seems, and certainly they claim to be "recession proof." Only now, as most major economies are returning to growth, are GW showing signs of struggle.

The UK economy returned to pre-crisis levels for the first time the week before GW published their financials this year, and the country is experiencing record levels of employment (admittedly the quality of that employment isn't necessarily uniformly great, but employment nonetheless.) While I don't doubt there are individual cases, like yourself, where personal economic factors have curbed spending, and it would take a fool to try and claim the financial crisis had no effect whatsoever on any business, but to try and use it to explain the recent downturn in revenue? Sorry, the timing just doesn't fit.



It is possible that demand has decreased. GW has closed many of their North American locations and made some poor decisions with trade in regard to independent retailers and this is a social hobby that relies on brick and mortar to help generate new players. This is the most likely cause for a decline in sales.
There is no evidence to tie it to prices. It doesn't make sense that the market is paying the prices for the past years then suddenly they stop, it is unlikely.
GW financial report acknowledges that they had continuing problems in poorly performing North America. North America is still far from recovered from many of the financial issues over the past years and though has seen some return of employment it is still far away from pre recession levels.
So you think that the prices are a more valid reason for declining sales than the economy? So people were spending during the major parts of the recession and then as things improved they stopped spending? I'm not sure how that data works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smacks wrote:
 Ugavine wrote:
So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants?

Sure, I certainly do make similar complaints about expensive restaurants. There are plenty of places (and brands) that overcharge just to be more exclusive. I have never found that paying over the odds guarantees better food or service (usually the opposite). Nothing grinds my gears like a place that charges £100 a head for a meal that consists of one slither of kani and a carrot cut into a star shape. Those places can bugger off!

But when it comes to value I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer. It depends on your attitude and what you consider a fair comparison. When I eat at expensive places I tend to look at my food, realize it's the exact same stuff I can get anywhere, and then feel that I've been scammed. I don't really get it. But perhaps someone else will see some value in the place that I didn't. Maybe they got to post on their facebook that some D-list celebrity (who I'd never have heard of) was eating there at the same time, and that made it all worthwhile. Who knows what drives other people?

Certainly the 'exclusive' 'elite' business model has worked for some brands, such as Gucci and Ferrari. But I fail to see how it is supposed to work for GW. A Ferrari is a status symbol, the advantage of owning one is that you can drive up to a girl and she'll go "Wow is that your Ferrari?" *pants come down*. Trust me when I tell you that showing girls your GW stuff does not elicit the same response (usually the opposite). And never have I spotted Winona Ryder at my flgs slipping a Deff Rolla up her jumper... It's just not that kind of product.

Personally, I think GW would need to be about 30% cheaper than it is now to get me buying again. Their paints would need to be on a par with their competitors. And as for their books... Without some assurance that the current edition will last, I'd be reluctant to even waste shelf space on them, even if they were free.

For new customers I think the barrier to entry is way too high. The prices are obviously going to put more than a minority of new customers off, which is just idiocy. Even illiterate backstreet drug pushers have the business acumen to know that "the first hit is always free". GW's business model is clearly based around the headless chicken paradigm.




You do realize that your view on fine dining and GW is entirely valid right.?
And also shows that value in todays market is almost entirely subjective.
You do not see value in the expensive restaurant, and you do not see it in GW. Some may feel the same about 1 and not the other.
The fact that fine dining exists and GW is still selling product at their price point shows that many still see a value in the items.
You have in your own admissions shown that GW prices are what they should be.

GW is a niche and has huge varying product lines with more options than any other system.
The cost of entry is $100. That is the price of a starter set that gets you playing. 1/4 the price of a play station. Much less than RC cars or planes.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:04:20


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I don't really think GW figures are all that high quality in many cases. Their plastic figures are variable, some are good, others, particularly the older ones, are fairly lumpy in their details. They aren't crisp and fine. This wouldn't be so bad on old things like the Catachans if they were still 50p like when released but they're now £1.80 a head.

I also think GW and some of their defenders confuse detail with clutter. A figure with high detail and quality can still be understated, GW's approach is to clutter a figure with baubles and trinkets seemingly in a lack of imagination as to what else should be there.

GW seem to be going all plastic, which is just as well because their Finecast is dreadful. I refuse to touch the stuff because of the quality. Other miniature companies offer actual resin products for less than GW's not-quite-resin Finecast. As products go it's an absolute disaster, charging more for a clearly inferior material. Even if GW brought back specialist games I know I wouldn't get into them because of this appalling stuff.

At the weekend I was looking at the new Warzone figures which seem to be made of a resin or Finecast material but are bubble free and look easier to clean up. Typical packs had five man-sized figures for £12-14. Can GW match that? Hell no, they regularly want £30-40 for boxes of 4-5 Finecast figures.

GW are in a bit of a fix because after 30 years and their current size they only have about £17m in the bank. They can't lower prices much because if the sales don't pick up immediately they will lose money fast. That money will disappear fast if they try to prop up their hundreds of retail stores.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:06:48


Post by: TheKbob


 Throt wrote:

A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. ]


I stopped there.

You haven't seen the latest financials that show, for a fact, a loss of sales, right? That's pretty hard evidence of the contrary. And it's not the price, it's the value. I said that last December and through January. Now it's come to light with higher prices and lower quality or volume. That's a measurable and objective decrease in value.

No spin necessary.

I see others have pointed out the same. Opinions are all fine and dandy. When facts are used to validate them, they becoming more than an opinion, but a line of reasoning or hypothesis. We have data saying something is amiss. GW is in the business of selling plastic widgets that are supposed to have value. They could be super cheap, but no one played the game, thus zero value to me outside of painting. They could be super expensive, but everyone plays,... and still have zero value to me because it's a poor product. Those are opinions and subject to my anecdotal state. Seeing the company start to trend downwards with a significant voiced opinion online and off, that I've experienced, suggest something is greatly wrong. I'm seeing 20+ year vets swing into Malifaux, Warmachine, and Infinity setting aside armies crafted by forged narratives (literally, one guy has an awesome Tau army where each Crisis Suit is a story that happened in a campaign... now it's up for sale).

So yea, go ahead and try to tell me something's not wrong and that it's "just an opinion." Opinions don't change facts. I suggest you read some of the larger threads and comprehend the data analysis that's been provided here and at Warseer. Or just wait for the probable conclusion of "The Future of Games Day and Games Workshop" series.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:16:38


Post by: snurl


GW could cut their prices by 50% and their stuff would still be too expensive, if you asked me.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:18:07


Post by: rayphoton


 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.


How is this an argument?

In the last few weeks I've bought Nothing from GW

I'm on a medium wage and still think their prices are ridiculous on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I still see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs of other kits like dreamforge, reaper and mantic I'm amazed they're as expensive as they are.

Has anyone seen the Eisenkern 20 man box set for 42$? They are seriously badass with lots of bits and detail and more than 60% less than GW. Dont give me GW figures over the likes of them any day


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:24:19


Post by: sirlynchmob


If you want to have fun with comparisons, look at the price of a lego mini, if you tried to make a army with lego's it would cost more than gw charges. Believe me I tried, I designed a lego battlewagon, with lego's designer, and when I selected to buy the pieces I was shocked.

But you can play the game for freeish. Get a bunch of bottlecaps which are roughly the same size as bases, put anything on them and you have an army. or look at the necron army made of sprews. You can and are allowed to make your own models, or buy the models. the choice & price is up to you.

Fun times are ahead and the future of in home 3D printers is going to be a huge change for all miniature games. They're getting cheaper and better all the time. To the guy who bought a 2T drive for under a hundred, I spent $300 on a 420 M, yes meg hard drive. don't ask what I spent on my 56.6 modem.

The initial investment to get into 40k might seem high, but when spread out over the time you play it's really not that much. I could buy the 'da goff guard' rule book & codex for $3kish, It should be 3 years til I need a new codex, and hopefully more than a year before I need a rule book. so it works out to $83 a month for a game I find enjoyable using gw models. As long as I enjoy my army, I never have to buy another model.

Can the price be cheaper? Oh heck yes, especially the books, more so for the supplements, and even more so the digital books.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:25:36


Post by: Harriticus


A 50% price reduction is minimum to make it a serious product worth buying, 75% would be sensible.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:29:23


Post by: Throt


 TheKbob wrote:
 Throt wrote:

A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. ]


I stopped there.

You haven't seen the latest financials that show, for a fact, a loss of sales, right? That's pretty hard evidence of the contrary. And it's not the price, it's the value. I said that last December and through January. Now it's come to light with higher prices and lower quality or volume. That's a measurable and objective decrease in value.

No spin necessary.


Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.

When you read the financials you have seen the closing of retail stores and troubles they have given independent retailers in North America right?
Their loss in sales has mostly to do with being beholden to shareholders, poor business decisions etc. These are different topics.
You are correct about the disparity with objective value.
All companies make their profits by markups from the objective value of their product. Soda, French fries, computer cables, cell phones, tennis shoes (a pair of Nike shoes cost avg of $5 to make yet sells for over $100) the list goes on..
The objective value has remained mostly the same for several years. With the exception of their change to finecast. I.E. plastic model kits rule books etc.
The only price increases for 2013 were in hobby supplies..
The idea that a majority of their decline in sales is based on their prices is a fallacy.
It is the subjective value that drives a companies prices. And people are still willing to pay it.
No, not everyone but enough.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:35:47


Post by: kerikhaos


guys everyone needs to remember, the argument cant be about bugging ferrari or goping to posh restaurant (if you consider GW to be posh that is). Its besides the point - we dont all go to the home business to buy the item for top dollar because it already can be found (the exact same thing) for 30% cheaper from another business.

I can find a ferrari being sold elsewhere for cheaper the same model exactly and i can go eat the same food at a restaurant which again is cheaper.

How does dark sphere charge so low and still be happy with their profits. I dont believe its because there are more mouths to feed at GW. My belief its just poorly run. You cant have a small company under cutting the main HQ of which is GW and still have a smile on their faces. Its because i believe these companies are trying to give their customers the same product for less and what does this result in - the customer coming back to shop with them again and again so overall the profit GW would of made from me would of been less because i would of not bought as much from them. This is the clever tactic which is at play here. Customers will buy more at a cheaper rate and that is the fact here. No one is settling for something less than a ferrari because were talking about the same item.

The question is why are they not upset that companies like dark sphere etc are under cutting them


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:37:20


Post by: TheKbob


 Throt wrote:

Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.


Facts are not confirmation bias. Please provide data that is contrary to our statements: The sales of Games Workshop product have gone down in direct occurrence to the largest push of product release at the highest prices to date. And no, the books have certainly gone down in value just from a grammatical and fluff stand point, let alone that actual rules inside. The plastic kits have gone down in dramatic value, such as the Eldar Dire Avengers or the Stormus Trooperus box that's actually a massive cost increase on the metals they replace.

If what you are trying to say based off some sort of reasonable fact, please present it now. Otherwise, I think you're the one with confirmation bias.

PS: Also, a strong knock-off market suggest you've priced yourself above and beyond what the market will bear regardless if you're profitable. And the knock-off market for GW has exploded over the past year. That's another data point, carry on.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 06:38:32


Post by: heartserenade


I don't think "enough" means "falling sales", though. But that's just me.

Also, they may not be increasing the prices but look at the prices of the new releases and compare them to the old ones. A single pose plastic SM Captain/Librarian is 25 euros. A single pose plastic Fantasy model (Necromancer/Wight King/Cairn Wraith etc.) is 11 euros. That's more than double. GW is still increasing prices, only in a different way.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 07:12:44


Post by: Throt


 TheKbob wrote:


I see others have pointed out the same. Opinions are all fine and dandy. When facts are used to validate them, they becoming more than an opinion, but a line of reasoning or hypothesis. We have data saying something is amiss. GW is in the business of selling plastic widgets that are supposed to have value. They could be super cheap, but no one played the game, thus zero value to me outside of painting. They could be super expensive, but everyone plays,... and still have zero value to me because it's a poor product. Those are opinions and subject to my anecdotal state. Seeing the company start to trend downwards with a significant voiced opinion online and off, that I've experienced, suggest something is greatly wrong. I'm seeing 20+ year vets swing into Malifaux, Warmachine, and Infinity setting aside armies crafted by forged narratives (literally, one guy has an awesome Tau army where each Crisis Suit is a story that happened in a campaign... now it's up for sale).

So yea, go ahead and try to tell me something's not wrong and that it's "just an opinion." Opinions don't change facts. I suggest you read some of the larger threads and comprehend the data analysis that's been provided here and at Warseer. Or just wait for the probable conclusion of "The Future of Games Day and Games Workshop" series.


Continuing after your edit..

That is the point. What GW prices should be is opinion. Nothing more. Obviously there are still people who are of the opinion that the price point is fine. And whichever way you lean is fine, that is up to the individual. Read the subjective theory of value.
These sort of discussions don't go anywhere because they are solely opinion. Yet like I said for some reason I like to dive into them....go figure.
I have read many of the blogs here and on Warseer. I don't have the time nor the desire to read them all because most of them have a number of people full of angst towards a company that they believe to be so terrible in so many ways, yet they continue to spend their time on threads devoted to the topic. Proceeding to tell everyone how bad it is, rather than spending their time elsewhere. It baffles me. I jump in on occasion then fade away into the night when I tire of discussing differences in opinion.
.
Here and Warseer have a number of people with such angst who believe themselves representative of the majority. Yet google comes up with over 1.2 million 40k blogs. This in itself shows that there are a large number of people that enjoy the hobby. There are many sites with people who have many great ideas, things to say etc. Even here on Dakka there are over thousands of users and double the visitors.
Do some wish it was cheaper, of course they do, but that's like asking do you want a hundred dollars or $1000. There are still a majority that are willing to save or just buy the products. If the price was the driver GW wouldn't have made it through it's 25% stock drop.

Opinions don't change facts. But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.
I haven't said that there is nothing wrong, I have said that the pricing is not a driver in GW's problems
The data analysis does show some disturbing trends within the company mostly due to poor executive decisions and probably some large problems with IP protection, real or imagined. Which is more executive or advisory errors. Problems with being beholden to shareholders etc.
Games Day itself has far more to do with operational errors and poor decisions than pricing. If you look at the lines for the events just to buy product, you can see that people are willing to spend. The problems with these events is far beyond pricing. It is part of GW failings. But these are all different topic.
Your own quoted post here shows how the idea of subjective value works and is a prime example of what I have said. You seem to dislike GW product and find no value and are glad to see it failing. Applauding those that are jumping ship..yet here you are...it baffles me. But that too is off topic.
These topics go on, because people like myself discuss them and drift off topic. Really the posts should all be short like this...

I think GW prices are fine.
I would like them to be cheaper because then I could buy more but hey it's a hobby I buy what I can when I can..
I think they should be 20% less
I would appreciate a few more Christmas deals or a new army deal like buy x new items and get x small item free
etc....
IT is no more right or wrong than any other answer to the question.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 07:21:59


Post by: Yonan


 Throt wrote:
But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.

Personally, I "stop there" when I realize a persons perception of the situation is so warped that further discussion is pointless.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 07:42:59


Post by: Throt


 TheKbob wrote:
 Throt wrote:

Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.


Facts are not confirmation bias. Please provide data that is contrary to our statements: The sales of Games Workshop product have gone down in direct occurrence to the largest push of product release at the highest prices to date. And no, the books have certainly gone down in value just from a grammatical and fluff stand point, let alone that actual rules inside. The plastic kits have gone down in dramatic value, such as the Eldar Dire Avengers or the Stormus Trooperus box that's actually a massive cost increase on the metals they replace.

If what you are trying to say based off some sort of reasonable fact, please present it now. Otherwise, I think you're the one with confirmation bias.

PS: Also, a strong knock-off market suggest you've priced yourself above and beyond what the market will bear regardless if you're profitable. And the knock-off market for GW has exploded over the past year. That's another data point, carry on.


I have listed many facts.
No one has shown any evidence that price is a driver in GW loss in sales.
Some have stated their opinion that the prices are too high for them and that is fine. Some are also confused between objective and subjective value.
I have not said GW doesn't have issues, structurally or financially. I have said there is no evidence that Price point is a major player in these problems.
A strong knock off market shows that items have a strong desirability. Counterfeiting has to do with profitability and desire. If demand is high and the counterfeiter can make a profit on the items then they may potentially try it. Counterfeiters have even moved to medicines. Tthey make cheap knock off disney toys in dollar stores..all for profit. The price is less relevant and not a significant driver because if there is no desire no one will buy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yonan wrote:
 Throt wrote:
But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.

Personally, I "stop there" when I realize a persons perception of the situation is so warped that further discussion is pointless.


And you are entitled to your opinion.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 08:15:55


Post by: Smacks


 Throt wrote:
The fact that fine dining exists and GW is still selling product at their price point shows that many still see a value in the items.
You have in your own admissions shown that GW prices are what they should be.


I certainly admit that some people are willing to pay the prices, but then some people are willing to pay anything.

For me personally the prices are wrong because It is my belief that plastic miniatures cost pennies to manufacture, and GW marks the price up by thousands of percent. This belief is based largely on the cost of historical miniatures such as Victrix, which are similar to GW miniatures in terms of size, quality and modularity. But for the price of 10 Space Marines, you can buy a box of 48 Romans. So even though I can afford GW, I find their prices somewhat insulting, which is why I don't do any business with GW. But of course this is an entirely private matter concerning only me and how I wish to spend my money. It may be subjective, or without any discernible rhyme or reason at all.

However GWs sales figures are not subjective. They are down (again). Growth is down, share price is also down. So to turn around and say "the prices are what they should be" is just obtuse. Interestingly, Ferrari's car sales were also down last year, but that's okay because Ferrari make most of their money from merchandising (baseball caps etc...), as Gucci does from sunglasses. The overpriced cars and suits are really just an elaborate advertizing ploy to promote their elite image and sell their more affordable products. And so last year Ferrari boasted record profits. GW by comparison have just taken their main source of income and made it too expensive, and now predictably fewer people buy it... Genius!

With regards to people continuing to see value in things. That is actually quite unclear. There are plenty of scams and confidence tricks which are still popular and may have been so for thousands of years. Even though they have zero value to the "customer", there are always plenty of new people who haven't seen them yet and will fall for the scam at least once. This could easily be the case with lots of fine dinning places. People get sucked in by the glamor of the elite establishment, go there once, realize it sucked and just never go back, but they still have your money. As I understand it (from Dakka) GW make a lot of money from newcomers to the hobby, who will splash out on rules, dex, army boxes etc... before they become disenchanted with the company. Just because people are giving them money doesn't automatically mean they are satisfied customers.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 10:23:13


Post by: StraightSilver


I don't think GW's falling sales figures are necessarily related to their price point.

They might be, but we will never know as GW don't conduct Market Research and AFAIK we don't have an indicator of footfall either?

I think the biggest factor affecting GW sales at the moment is their rapid decline in Market Share.

How many kick starters have players invested in recently? How many new games are there coming out?

I can think of half a dozen fairly big new games that have come out that are slowly chipping away at GW's Market Share, and also some existing systems that seem to be gaining traction over the last 12 months.

From a UK centric point of view these would be X-Wing, which is only going to get bigger over the next couple of years.

Infinity, might be London centric but seems to be doing very well and i think will also increase in market share when Ice storm starter set gets released.

Zombicide, Dead Zone etc etc.

This is a niche luxury market and for a long time GW dominated the market because as a large established company they were one of the few games developers that could afford to invest in new products.

I don't think (and this is a personal opinion) that 3-D printing is any threat to GW, but I believe the kick starter phenomenon is and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in Kirby's pre-amble.

Small companies with good ideas can now crowd source large sums of money that a couple of years ago would have been unavailable to them and can now produce quality boxed sets that can now go up against the bigger companies.

GW still believes it is "The Hobby" TM, but it really isn't.

It now has some big competitors in the market place and thanks to this wonderful thing called the internet players have so much more choice available to them.

I still don't believe GW are prices are that much over priced but i think they need to realise they need to win back customers and start trying to compete with other games.

And if I'm honest I don't think lowering their prices would save them. They need to realise that the reason a large percentage of people buy their products is to play games with them, but right now their games just aren't up to scratch.

Most of my gaming group haven's stopped playing 40k for example because it's too expensive, it's because the rules aren't that great....


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 12:36:00


Post by: Azreal13


 Throt wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:


No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.


You of course are entitled to your opinion, but you don't think that GW is the prestige brand of the niche market of table top wargaming? Wargaming is not mainstream.


Nope, not even close. Mierce and Kingdom Death are both producing a much much more appropriate product to be considered "prestige" (low volume, using top creative talent, high price, high quality) GW is a prestige brand in the same way as Walmart is.



GW is years ahead of the majority of their competitors in almost every aspect.


Citation needed. The Perrys and Dreamforge Games are producing models, in plastic, that are of comparable quality, substantially better pricing and technically greater sophistication than anything I've seen from GW that I can recall.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 12:46:24


Post by: heartserenade


They are years ahead in terms of resin casting? Why doesn't that translate well with Finecast, if they have years of experience?

And GW plastics may be good quality-wise, but years ahead is an extreme hyperbole. Have you seen the quality of Shieldwolf orcs and Perry plastics? Note that these are the same Perrys who worked for GW. Mantic is a bit hit or miss, but detail-wise their plastic sculpts are just as good as GWs, but admittedly they lack customizability.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 13:07:51


Post by: Wayniac


GW basically sells what amounts to McDonalds at 5-star restaurant prices while saying that they're a 5-star restaurant and not McDonalds.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 13:17:07


Post by: Yonan


 Azreal13 wrote:
Citation needed. The Perrys and Dreamforge Games are producing models, in plastic, that are of comparable quality, substantially better pricing and technically greater sophistication than anything I've seen from GW that I can recall.

GWs Imperial Knights are a laugh in sophistication next to the Dreamforge Leviathans. Down to individually posed fingers and toes, larger and still cheaper with a titan range of swappable arms and amazing poseability. No plastic GW produces comes close.

New GW infantry plastics are roughly on par with the new DFG/WWX infantry plastics by WGF, though tbh I think WGF plastics edge them out still in quality, not to mention getting up to 4x for cheaper.

WayneTheGame wrote:
GW basically sells what amounts to McDonalds at 5-star restaurant prices while saying that they're a 5-star restaurant and not McDonalds.

Yep. Sometimes you really feel like that greasy maccas fix, but you regret it afterwards and wish you had of gone for subway, or at least chinese.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 13:26:53


Post by: jason1977


Stuff to get started, rules books, codexes and the min models to play should be cost or bare min markup. All the fluffy add ons can have a mark up but having sales wouldnt hurt. I found 15% coupons in some White Dwarfs from years ago. Valid at X store on Y date off course.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 13:44:44


Post by: Azreal13


I am, and have been some time, an advocate of a modular starter system. Don't force people to buy the contents of a set box, do one HQ choice, 2 x Troops, 1 x "other" plus codex for a bargain price, obviously ensure it all comes from the same faction, and if management felt there were certain outliers that needed to be excluded (perhaps have a £30 RRP limit in the "other" box) and boom, a playable starter army, or an ideal start to an allied detachment. Have that at a keen price, sub £100 definitely, ideally sub £80, and you'd have a decent entry point, which had appeal to the established gamer also, which might not make you huge profits but would drive revenue and make it a much easier to get new blood.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 13:59:07


Post by: sing your life


My thoughts:

Tactical marines box: £20

The price we have now isn't too bad, but these aren't the most complex models in existence. They can't be that expensive to make.

Assault marines: £25 for 10

The only real difference between these and tacticals is different weapons and a bigger backpack. Shouldn't make them 2x the price.

Imperial Guard shocktroopers: £20

They have an equal amount of detail as 28mm WW2 plastics and you need the same amount, hence the similar prices.

Plastic characters: £5 at most.

These are monopose, 1/56 scale styrene models. Miniart, Trumpeter will give you a multi-pose 1/16 scale figure with the same material and price as current.

Space Marine plastic captain: £8

Are higher demand and should come with a PE fret containing chapter symbols, so can be sold for more than other PCs.

High Elf Spearman/archers: £12 for 20

They're dated and boring miniatures.

Finecast models: same price

Just make them really high quality resin that GW tells you they are and I don't mind the price.

Skaven clanrats: 40 for £30

They're great miniatures, but you need a complete fethton of them.

Also:

Privateer Press Miniatures: 60% of the US price in Britain, 75% of US price in other EU countries.

Only 5% of the world's population lives in the USA PP. Stop making the other 95% pay more.

Saldiven wrote:
If you want to see what the prices "should" be, then look at companies like Tamiya USA and see what they charge for their models. Tamiya models are, across the board, higher quality products than anything produced by GW. Despite this, similarly scaled models from Tamiya cost about 50%-75% what GW models cost. The Tamiya models have far more pieces and better detail than the GW product.


*cough* Challenger 2 *cough* 1/32 scale *cough*


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 14:51:42


Post by: odinsgrandson



To me, they seem to be priced above the industry standard, which will reduce sales. GW's attitude has long been that they get to set all industry standards (and it was actually true for a while). They need to look at the ktis designed by their competitors- Privateer Press, Covus Belli, Wyrd Games etc.

The rulebooks are the biggest offenders, in my opinion, as they create a very large barrier to entry. Comparing them to a few other currently available games- here are the rules people need to play and how much they cost:

$15 (Malifaux- they also have a $35 version with more fluff and art)
$20 (Dark Age)
$30 (Warmachine, Hordes)
$50 (Infinity, Relic Knights- both are also available online for free, and RK gives you the full rules and cards in their $50 starter boxes).


$85+$50 (Warhammer 40,000) you need to spend $135 in order to have the rules you need to play one army. And for that $135, you do not get any miniatures that you could play with.

Do you see the barrier to entry? Most games now give you rules with the minis, and many of them will hand out rulebooks for free online. GW has hunkered down and made entry into their game the most expensive in the industry by a wide margin.

- Their core rulebook should be about $30. $35 is fine, and it is totally ok to release a nicer version for more, but they should be available for no more than $35 (note that the other companies selling $50 core books have made the rules available for free).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 15:13:25


Post by: Solorg


odinsgrandson,

I simply cannot agree more. It is what I've come to call the "subscription" model of gaming. You need to Pay to Play - and every couple of years your "subscription" runs out and you must buy a new rulebook.

A friend gave me a huge Tyranid Army because he didn't want to shell out for the new $50 rulebook. ($50 isn't impossible, but if you have multiple armies, it sure adds up quick!). I have done nothing with these BEAUTIFUL models because I am not ready to shell out for the new book (I have not yet decided whether I am going to buy the new Ork Dex - this is for my main army - and beyond that, there is kind of a Second Dex for Orks (another $50) that details special formations that help you stay competitive, field the Ghazghkull Unit, etc).

At this moment my group wants to stay with 6th Edition. Across our whole group we are saving probably $600 with this move - at least. As for me, I plan to stay with the old Ork Dex. It is a nice temporary solution. Too bad, because without the new rules and dex I have no reason to consider the latest Ork Models which are only detailed in that dex.

To chime in one more thought, all the new boxed sets seem to be moving towards $10/$12 per model. Like the Flash Gitz at $60 a box for 5, I think. One has to remember that this price is Before Paint Costs are applied. Each bottle of paint is probably $4 and you need several to make a decent model. For someone buying their very first kit (no paints at home) that first box of Gits plus paint and brushes are going to get close to $100US for sure.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 15:18:28


Post by: vipoid


 Solorg wrote:
I simply cannot agree more. It is what I've come to call the "subscription" model of gaming. You need to Pay to Play - and every couple of years your "subscription" runs out and you must buy a new rulebook.


Indeed.

I think one problem is that GW seems to think that the only possible way to sell models is to change books.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 16:02:05


Post by: Litcheur


 heartserenade wrote:
And GW plastics may be good quality-wise, but years ahead is an extreme hyperbole.

Yup.
Their vehicles are decades behind those from Revell or Zvezda. And they're at least twice or thrice as expensive.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 16:03:32


Post by: Random Dude


 vipoid wrote:
 Solorg wrote:
I simply cannot agree more. It is what I've come to call the "subscription" model of gaming. You need to Pay to Play - and every couple of years your "subscription" runs out and you must buy a new rulebook.


Indeed.

I think one problem is that GW seems to think that the only possible way to sell models is to change books.


The most annoying part of GW's subscription gaming is that new codices often invalidate entire lists. I am genuinely sorry for Tyranid players in that regard.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 16:05:36


Post by: Howard A Treesong


StraightSilver wrote:

I don't think (and this is a personal opinion) that 3-D printing is any threat to GW, but I believe the kick starter phenomenon is and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in Kirby's pre-amble.


He's either deluded (see previous comments about Pokemon) or it's deliberate misdirection. He chose to spend a paragraph dismissing the threat of 3D printing a decade away, and even then he didn't seem to understand the industry. He didn't bother to address any of the threats right now, the loss of market share to other miniatures companies producing right now, nor did he address the loss to appealing Kickstarters that customers are now investing in instead of GW. No, he'd rather talk about and dismiss the threat of 3D printers in ten years time. At the rate GW are going, they won't be around in ten years time. The bluster is simply because he has no answers to the real challenges to the company.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 17:07:18


Post by: Gwaihirsbrother


If GW is a Ferarri, it is increasingly becoming one that you can't take out of the garage or driveway. It isn't a smooth or pleasant ride, and all the parts are designed to fail after a year or so if you want to go anywhere you have to buy a bunch of new parts. Oh sure it might look good in the driveway but it is pretty embarrassing whenever you try to go anywhere with it, and with all the noise, vibrations, uncomfortable seat, and inability to approach the speed it could when you bought it why would you want to?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 17:18:55


Post by: jabbakahut


 Throt wrote:

I swear I am a glutton for punishment because I always come to these threads to try to convince people that this entire topic is opinion and each opinion is as valid as the next.


Take a philosophy course, every opinion IS NOT as valid as the next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yonan wrote:
 Throt wrote:
Most people believe GW prices are just fine.

When your post is based on this false premise, it's not really worth reading. The rapidly declining sales along with numerous accounts of players stating it's at least partially due to prices show it as incorrect.

edit: I skimmed the rest and yeah, so much... baloney? I believe is the US term for it.

What this bloke said!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 17:21:21


Post by: Talizvar


 Howard A Treesong wrote:
StraightSilver wrote:

I don't think (and this is a personal opinion) that 3-D printing is any threat to GW, but I believe the kick starter phenomenon is and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in Kirby's pre-amble.
He's either deluded (see previous comments about Pokemon) or it's deliberate misdirection. He chose to spend a paragraph dismissing the threat of 3D printing a decade away, and even then he didn't seem to understand the industry. He didn't bother to address any of the threats right now, the loss of market share to other miniatures companies producing right now, nor did he address the loss to appealing Kickstarters that customers are now investing in instead of GW. No, he'd rather talk about and dismiss the threat of 3D printers in ten years time. At the rate GW are going, they won't be around in ten years time. The bluster is simply because he has no answers to the real challenges to the company.
This was my take on the future of GW and 3D printers:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/564209.page#6269755

Main quote:

"Below is entirely fiction but how I see the future for their models:

Next we will have the "GW miniature printer": buy the introductory $300 box set (the printer) with the 30 model units licensing included (free!!!!) and go to their website and make your selections and it will download your models and go to work! Do not forget to purchase more of the Citadel "armorplas" TM for printing: you would not want to run out (costs like gold and sells like it!!!). You could later buy the $200 add-on for vehicle size printing, the $400 for apocalypse units and $800 for the titan builder model (special deals included for "armorplas" TM with this purchase!). All "GW miniature printers" come in various models as well: character quality (add $200), display quality (add $400) and golden daemon (add $800). Note: at any time certain models may no longer be supported for "legacy" printers since we want to ensure the highest quality output GW experience where possible. Some exceptions with quality level upgrades. You want this too right???

I think I got the heebie jeebies writing that bit.
"

Still gives me the creeps thinking about it...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 17:23:33


Post by: Vaktathi


Of note as of the last couple years has been the fact that main-line GW plastic infantry kits are coming out priced at the same level as Forgeworld kits. Stuff like Dire Avengers and Tempestus Scions vs Death Korps Grenadiers, and stuff like SM HQ models are largely interchangably priced. Codex books are approaching Imperial Armour book pricing.

At this point, GW's mainline products are thoroughly at the "boutique" pricing level one would expect of specialized manufacturers producing niche products and display pieces, not mass produced plastic kits.

I've spent so much on GW stuff over the years that I'm terrified to count it, but over the last...year and a half/two years, my spending has dropped to almost nothing becaue I just can't justify the prices. The Imperial Knight is an excellent example, at $140 I'm not buying one, but had they come out at $90 I'd have bought two, just as I ended up with 4 Baneblades when they were $90.


I'm not really sure what they're pricing strategy is. However, it's clear that GW is facing some distress. Not only are their absolute numbers down, but adjusting for inflation and looking back go 2003, the *real* value of their revenue has been dropping as well, with a peak of ~152m in 2004 (nearly 192m in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars) down to 123.5m in 2014. Couple this with drastically increased prices on many/most items and the inescapable conclusion is that the volume of kits being sold is decreasing, and decreasing pretty significantly.

I know for me personally my spending has dropped off because of pricing, dissatisfaction with rules, and less engaging background, and while I can't speak for others, it would appear that I'm not the only one drastically cutting spending on GW products these days.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 17:25:19


Post by: jabbakahut


WayneTheGame wrote:
GW basically sells what amounts to McDonalds at 5-star restaurant prices while saying that they're a 5-star restaurant and not McDonalds.

haha, nice


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 18:12:10


Post by: sirlynchmob


 Talizvar wrote:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
StraightSilver wrote:

I don't think (and this is a personal opinion) that 3-D printing is any threat to GW, but I believe the kick starter phenomenon is and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in Kirby's pre-amble.
He's either deluded (see previous comments about Pokemon) or it's deliberate misdirection. He chose to spend a paragraph dismissing the threat of 3D printing a decade away, and even then he didn't seem to understand the industry. He didn't bother to address any of the threats right now, the loss of market share to other miniatures companies producing right now, nor did he address the loss to appealing Kickstarters that customers are now investing in instead of GW. No, he'd rather talk about and dismiss the threat of 3D printers in ten years time. At the rate GW are going, they won't be around in ten years time. The bluster is simply because he has no answers to the real challenges to the company.
This was my take on the future of GW and 3D printers:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/564209.page#6269755

Main quote:

"Below is entirely fiction but how I see the future for their models:

Next we will have the "GW miniature printer": buy the introductory $300 box set (the printer) with the 30 model units licensing included (free!!!!) and go to their website and make your selections and it will download your models and go to work! Do not forget to purchase more of the Citadel "armorplas" TM for printing: you would not want to run out (costs like gold and sells like it!!!). You could later buy the $200 add-on for vehicle size printing, the $400 for apocalypse units and $800 for the titan builder model (special deals included for "armorplas" TM with this purchase!). All "GW miniature printers" come in various models as well: character quality (add $200), display quality (add $400) and golden daemon (add $800). Note: at any time certain models may no longer be supported for "legacy" printers since we want to ensure the highest quality output GW experience where possible. Some exceptions with quality level upgrades. You want this too right???

I think I got the heebie jeebies writing that bit.
"

Still gives me the creeps thinking about it...


I don't think it would go down that road, more likely:

GW: buy a license to design and print 10 of this type of model, after 10 printings the files self delete. saves about 15% off the cost of the model.

Other companies will have contests to submit your designs to be accepted as the official models. buy the design once and print off what you need.

groups like FUBAR, pop up like weeds with all sorts of new games with free rules downloads and a community designing and sharing models that you can print at home. any genre ever imagined will be recreated as table top games.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 18:32:27


Post by: Saldiven


 sing your life wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If you want to see what the prices "should" be, then look at companies like Tamiya USA and see what they charge for their models. Tamiya models are, across the board, higher quality products than anything produced by GW. Despite this, similarly scaled models from Tamiya cost about 50%-75% what GW models cost. The Tamiya models have far more pieces and better detail than the GW product.


*cough* Challenger 2 *cough* 1/32 scale *cough*


That's a much larger scale. By most accounts, 28mm Heroic is somewhere between 1:48 and 1:64, depending on the model and manufacturer. A 1:32 scale model is roughly 25-33% larger than a 1:48, so wound necessarily cost more. That's why I specifically did my comparison to their 1:48 line of models.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 19:32:33


Post by: sing your life


Saldiven wrote:
 sing your life wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If you want to see what the prices "should" be, then look at companies like Tamiya USA and see what they charge for their models. Tamiya models are, across the board, higher quality products than anything produced by GW. Despite this, similarly scaled models from Tamiya cost about 50%-75% what GW models cost. The Tamiya models have far more pieces and better detail than the GW product.


*cough* Challenger 2 *cough* 1/32 scale *cough*


That's a much larger scale. By most accounts, 28mm Heroic is somewhere between 1:48 and 1:64, depending on the model and manufacturer. A 1:32 scale model is roughly 25-33% larger than a 1:48, so wound necessarily cost more. That's why I specifically did my comparison to their 1:48 line of models.


That's good, but Tamiya isn't the manufacturer to go to if you want to compare scale models to citadel. The Challenger 2 I mentioned is £44.99, just as much as a kit by Meng, Takom or AFv club, who would give you photo-etch and workable tracks instead of crappy bits of vinyl in the former kit. And Revell has a new spitfire in 1/32 which has half the detail of Tamiya's version for 1/6 of the price.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 20:39:11


Post by: Saldiven


 sing your life wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
 sing your life wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If you want to see what the prices "should" be, then look at companies like Tamiya USA and see what they charge for their models. Tamiya models are, across the board, higher quality products than anything produced by GW. Despite this, similarly scaled models from Tamiya cost about 50%-75% what GW models cost. The Tamiya models have far more pieces and better detail than the GW product.


*cough* Challenger 2 *cough* 1/32 scale *cough*


That's a much larger scale. By most accounts, 28mm Heroic is somewhere between 1:48 and 1:64, depending on the model and manufacturer. A 1:32 scale model is roughly 25-33% larger than a 1:48, so wound necessarily cost more. That's why I specifically did my comparison to their 1:48 line of models.


That's good, but Tamiya isn't the manufacturer to go to if you want to compare scale models to citadel. The Challenger 2 I mentioned is £44.99, just as much as a kit by Meng, Takom or AFv club, who would give you photo-etch and workable tracks instead of crappy bits of vinyl in the former kit. And Revell has a new spitfire in 1/32 which has half the detail of Tamiya's version for 1/6 of the price.


All of which is largely irrelevant to my original point that there are companies (like Tamiya, but not restricted to Tamiya) who make comparably sized models of quality at least as good as current GW products for a fraction of the cost. This is despite being much smaller companies as far as gross revenue. A bigger company like GW should be able to appropriately exploit the economics of scale to produce their models fare more cheaply than they do, but their business model (largely caused by their insistence on having their own retail network) prevents them from doing so.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 21:21:32


Post by: Backfire


Saldiven wrote:

All of which is largely irrelevant to my original point that there are companies (like Tamiya, but not restricted to Tamiya) who make comparably sized models of quality at least as good as current GW products for a fraction of the cost. This is despite being much smaller companies as far as gross revenue. A bigger company like GW should be able to appropriately exploit the economics of scale to produce their models fare more cheaply than they do, but their business model (largely caused by their insistence on having their own retail network) prevents them from doing so.


IIRC Tamiya is quite a big bigger than GW - though most of their sales come from RC kits.

I don't know if Tamiya and other Japanese manufacturers still produce their kits in Japan. Tamiya and Hasegawa used to be crazy expensive back in the day, these days seems less so. Most of the model kits nowadays are produced in China.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/05 22:16:24


Post by: Baldysteve


For someone who's been collecting GW models for over 20 years, I've seen their prices rocket over the last few years. The points about intro items being cheaper or even negative profit making is bang on. Sadly I think GW has become too big for it's own good. Whats started as a bunch of gamers putting together different gaming systems and having fun, has turned into a cut-throat business. I'm not saying they shouldn't have sound business advise from professionals who can steer the company forward, but the whole thing is too profit driven. I know many current and ex staff members who are absolutely targets driven. Be it gaming/painting tutorials or simple sales. They are actively encouraged to get the sale, which normally means some poor parent being hounded into buying the starter set game, glue paint set, basing set and a codex. Only for the young kid to loose interest and the whole lot being either auctioned online or sold for peanuts at a car boot sale. Again most retail outlets have targets, but having been pounced on by a staff member who just appears on your shoulder, who actually mostly doesn't want to help but just sell you stuff, it gets a little old, again not their fault but lame.

I know plenty of 40k players who have moved to non-GW gaming systems as the price has just got too much and the earlier point of changing the codex's just grates everyone. Yes the new codex tends to balance out any rules kinks that have evolved since it's release, but will also push the newest models with sexy rules. I understand that's basic marketing, but every new codex has invalidated my current Army in some way, either due to points changes or completely changing the Army structure. Dark Angels a few years ago is a prime example, squads of 5 or 10. I'd end up throwing points for upgrades at ,models to spend the points.

Simple fact though is like most of you I'm hooked, it's my hobby and like most of you I've spend thousands, I have a huge backlog of painting to get done with complete Armies still in the box. I can easily cut down and to be honest I probably spend 25% of what I used to. If I want something new then I go straight to the independent stockists and save at least 20%. GW still gets some money but not the full amount. As for new blood, the GW stores used to be full of young kids on a Saturday morning, fighting a imperial vs aliens or something similar mass game. Now that's almost unheard of. So there's very little younger/new players joining. If I were GW I would seriously look at how they 'hook' people because at the moment I don't see many new players coming through and without them they have no real future?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/06 11:21:47


Post by: Bonde


 Vaktathi wrote:
Of note as of the last couple years has been the fact that main-line GW plastic infantry kits are coming out priced at the same level as Forgeworld kits. Stuff like Dire Avengers and Tempestus Scions vs Death Korps Grenadiers, and stuff like SM HQ models are largely interchangably priced. Codex books are approaching Imperial Armour book pricing.

At this point, GW's mainline products are thoroughly at the "boutique" pricing level one would expect of specialized manufacturers producing niche products and display pieces, not mass produced plastic kits.

I've spent so much on GW stuff over the years that I'm terrified to count it, but over the last...year and a half/two years, my spending has dropped to almost nothing becaue I just can't justify the prices. The Imperial Knight is an excellent example, at $140 I'm not buying one, but had they come out at $90 I'd have bought two, just as I ended up with 4 Baneblades when they were $90.


I'm not really sure what they're pricing strategy is. However, it's clear that GW is facing some distress. Not only are their absolute numbers down, but adjusting for inflation and looking back go 2003, the *real* value of their revenue has been dropping as well, with a peak of ~152m in 2004 (nearly 192m in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars) down to 123.5m in 2014. Couple this with drastically increased prices on many/most items and the inescapable conclusion is that the volume of kits being sold is decreasing, and decreasing pretty significantly.

I know for me personally my spending has dropped off because of pricing, dissatisfaction with rules, and less engaging background, and while I can't speak for others, it would appear that I'm not the only one drastically cutting spending on GW products these days.


I couldn't agree more. The amount of money I have spent on GW products has dropped from most of my available cash every month to nothing the last six months (not even second hand products). This is a combination of the price of GW miniatures going up, and the quality of the game itself remaining poor.
The fact that they changed editions after such a short time completely killed the game where I live. Personally I think the books are too expensive, since there only is an expensive version of each, and not a budget/paperback like the competing games have available.

Since winter, I have gone from playing 40K once a week, to one game of 40K period. The last two or three months, I have seen two people asking for a game of 40K locally. People mostly play Flames of War, Malifaux and Warmachine instead, while some even play Mordheim and The Hobbit/LoTR.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/06 14:21:40


Post by: odinsgrandson


Solorg wrote:It is what I've come to call the "subscription" model of gaming. You need to Pay to Play - and every couple of years your "subscription" runs out and you must buy a new rulebook...


That's a terrific metaphor. You've really summarized the model perfectly.

Bonde wrote:
The fact that they changed editions after such a short time completely killed the game where I live.


And here's the problem with this model. A new codex or new edition is often a terrific entry point (how many of you have looked at the Dark Eldar codex and releases and thought "oh man, I really want those."

But they're also a convenient exit point for people who are already drifting away a little. And with the high upkeep price of the rulebook, it can drive people off.

I think they'd be helped a lot if they didn't create these barriers to entry.

Look at the new Dungeons and Dragons- you can get most of the core rules online for free and try them out (or at least decide what you think). That cuts down on the barrier to entry (and we're gamers- once we're in, we spend money).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/06 17:53:42


Post by: gwarsh41


I wouldn't say GW is producing McDonalds quality at 5 star price.

Forgeworld is 5 star price, and reaper bones are McDonalds.
GW is a step up from fast food, I would say something like Chili's quality. Its OK, sometimes is terrible, sometimes is OK. They also have some good stuff that makes you stay with them, even though when someone talks about food you never bring up how much you love it. No one brags about going to eat at Chili's just like no one brags about how awesome their 40k collection is in these threads.

Pricing though would be comparable to an airport, or tourist spot Chili's. You know it should be 20-30% cheaper, you have seen it that cheap. You also know you are here and are going to pay for it anyway, because you are hungry for plastic models. Either way, when you notice the tip was already included on the check, and they still have the spot for the tip, you just get angry and go complain on the internet.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/06 18:02:09


Post by: Random Dude


 gwarsh41 wrote:
I wouldn't say GW is producing McDonalds quality at 5 star price.

Forgeworld is 5 star price, and reaper bones are McDonalds.
GW is a step up from fast food, I would say something like Chili's quality. Its OK, sometimes is terrible, sometimes is OK. They also have some good stuff that makes you stay with them, even though when someone talks about food you never bring up how much you love it. No one brags about going to eat at Chili's just like no one brags about how awesome their 40k collection is in these threads.

Pricing though would be comparable to an airport, or tourist spot Chili's. You know it should be 20-30% cheaper, you have seen it that cheap. You also know you are here and are going to pay for it anyway, because you are hungry for plastic models. Either way, when you notice the tip was already included on the check, and they still have the spot for the tip, you just get angry and go complain on the internet.


The Chili's analogy is a decent one. I agree, sometimes GW's products are horrendous ie Murderfang, Logan Claus Sled, but sometimes the products look amazing ie Valkyrie (of course, whether or not a model looks good is completely subjective). The same applies to the rules. I genuinely like some game mechanics and hate others. I wish GW's prices were lower, but I feel the product is good enough to warrant me buying it. YMMV.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/06 23:00:29


Post by: sciencemile


I don't know too much about the exact costs of making a plastic model, but I think I have a firm grasping when it comes to certain concepts in production, economics, and accounting.

A couple questions I'd ask is, when evaluating the Margin the minis have (I believe I saw elsewhere on one of the threads here that it was 75%), what portion of that is the cost of materials and construction, and how much of that is based on initial costs like R&D, The initial Molds, Box Design and Sculpture, etc?

If the latter is significantly higher than the former, then is the strategy of selling less for more providing them as much margin as they could be making by selling more for less?
(I have no idea what it actually costs mind you, so bear with my nonsense numbers)

Say Murderfang costs $30,000 to design. Then each Murderfang they make costs and additional 25 cents to spit out. They decide to make 1,000 Murderfangs because that's how many they think people will buy. So divvied up it cost them $30.25 to make a Murderfang, and they're going to sell it for $54.00, making $54,000, and $23,750 in profit.

But what if they had produced 2,000 Murderfangs? Divving up the cost then it would only cost them $15.25 to make a Murderfang. You could sell it at $35 each and still make $39,500 in profit.

Or even if they kept it the same price, generally it seems based on feedback I've seen generally demand far outweighs the supply their limited runs provide even at current prices, so even if they want to keep their prices, the math just seems to show that they're throwing money out the window with such limited releases, because the more units they sell at a given price, the higher their margins.

(I kinda like Murderfang, but then I also like the Noise marines that wielded Electric Guitars and fought with Heavy Metal )
----------

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think lowering their prices would more than pay for itself.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/07 01:36:46


Post by: frozenwastes


 kerikhaos wrote:
Ok everyone over the last few months of being a part of this amazing forum i have read countless times about how people feel unhappy because of the purchase costs of the GW lineup.

My question quite simply is "how much should these items be in your opinion and why?"

use a current example of GW items for base and provide your reasonable cost price along with reasons why......


What I want: Current UK prices less VAT less wholesale discount + actual shipping + each retailer pricing as they wish.

I have no problem with the UK prices. Even the US prices aren't that bad. It's the screw Canada and screw Australia prices combined with the embargo that got me to finally stop buying any GW products. I got some chaos stuff off eBay from the states that was still on sprue a year or so ago, but that's it.

The main issue though, even with UK prices, is the cost of an entire army. When GW grew from a UK importer of Dungeons & Dragons into an international miniatures company, it was with a game with a model count half that of the current one.




GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/10 20:51:28


Post by: kerikhaos


The question is would you continue buying the GW products but from different retailers if they were cheaper? Obviously having the choice of course.

Would this put a weight of guilt on your shoulders if you were a continuous open tournament player at the local GW (having turning up with Loads of brand new gear) and the local GW management thinking "where did this dude buy all this lot from? I'm sure it wasn't here". Would you feel embarrassed to turn up with the new gear or would you kiss your teeth and keep confident that your buying at a cheaper rate makes you smarter than the average GW collector?

I quests e question is would you feel embarrassed to show up with stuff you bought from elsewhere or just turn up confident as always without giving a second thought?

The question I think will test someone's GW loyalty?...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/10 21:11:26


Post by: Azreal13


One should always pay where you play, assuming you play in a store, to some extent.

GW seem to have been systematically phasing in-store gaming out, at least in some areas, which renders your question moot.

One could also ask
"Would you feel awkward turning up to a GW store with a large number of FW models?"

Because unless you specifically ordered them through the store and paid over the counter, they're about as relevant a sale to the Manager as any other model that you didn't buy in store.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/10 21:17:01


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 kerikhaos wrote:
The question is would you continue buying the GW products but from different retailers if they were cheaper? Obviously having the choice of course.

Would this put a weight of guilt on your shoulders if you were a continuous open tournament player at the local GW (having turning up with Loads of brand new gear) and the local GW management thinking "where did this dude buy all this lot from? I'm sure it wasn't here". Would you feel embarrassed to turn up with the new gear or would you kiss your teeth and keep confident that your buying at a cheaper rate makes you smarter than the average GW collector?

I quests e question is would you feel embarrassed to show up with stuff you bought from elsewhere or just turn up confident as always without giving a second thought?

The question I think will test someone's GW loyalty?...


That is not GW loyalty - that is loyalty to a store.

Here is another question - would you get something cheaper at the same retailer if you could use it for a GW game? If you could buy a 'counts as' space marine that you made by adding a jump pack to a paladin by Reaper Miniatures?

Howzabout a completely different game? So neither the miniatures nor the game ever came close to GW?

Because those are the real questions - and the answer for an awful lot of folks is 'Yep!'

It sure as heck is for me.

Artificially narrowing the competition does not make GW more appealing.

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/11 07:24:23


Post by: kerikhaos


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
The question is would you continue buying the GW products but from different retailers if they were cheaper? Obviously having the choice of course.

Would this put a weight of guilt on your shoulders if you were a continuous open tournament player at the local GW (having turning up with Loads of brand new gear) and the local GW management thinking "where did this dude buy all this lot from? I'm sure it wasn't here". Would you feel embarrassed to turn up with the new gear or would you kiss your teeth and keep confident that your buying at a cheaper rate makes you smarter than the average GW collector?

I quests e question is would you feel embarrassed to show up with stuff you bought from elsewhere or just turn up confident as always without giving a second thought?

The question I think will test someone's GW loyalty?...


That is not GW loyalty - that is loyalty to a store.

Here is another question - would you get something cheaper at the same retailer if you could use it for a GW game? If you could buy a 'counts as' space marine that you made by adding a jump pack to a paladin by Reaper Miniatures?

Howzabout a completely different game? So neither the miniatures nor the game ever came close to GW?

Because those are the real questions - and the answer for an awful lot of folks is 'Yep!'

It sure as heck is for me.

Artificially narrowing the competition does not make GW more appealing.

The Auld Grump


Totally relevant reply and I agree fully but the fact that some people (possibly like myself) have OCD toward original GW products and wouldn't settle for a custom build nor an alternative purchase. I'm not saying it's wrong I'm saying that I'm sure some people wouldn't be comfortable with or most probably cursed to always buy the GW product.

We support GW like any other maniac supporting their favourite football team. The question is would some of these maniacs feel bad buying cheaper the same thing and turning up to their local GW saying "what's up lads check what I got"

Saying that dark sphere yesterday had some massive event going on there was loads of people in there ready to play a tournament or something


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/11 23:30:11


Post by: TheAuldGrump


In the current Mordheim and Necromunda games fewer than half of the figures on the table are GW.

For irony, more than half of the figures on the table for the Mantic Kings of War games are GW! (Folks ditching the latest edition of WHFB for a better games system. Many of the non-GW figures were used in the previous edition of WHFB....)

I do not think that anybody in my group gives a skaven's arse if a figure is GW or not.

The Auld Grump

*Edit* To be honest, I don't think any of us would play with somebody that did voice an opinion of 'GW Figures only!' We would give him the boot without hesitation.

*EDIT 2* As long as it is readily apparent what figure is carrying what weapon and wearing what armor....


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/11 23:42:06


Post by: kerikhaos


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
In the current Mordheim and Necromunda games fewer than half of the figures on the table are GW.

For irony, more than half of the figures on the table for the Mantic Kings of War games are GW! (Folks ditching the latest edition of WHFB for a better games system. Many of the non-GW figures were used in the previous edition of WHFB....)

I do not think that anybody in my group gives a skaven's arse if a figure is GW or not.

The Auld Grump

*Edit* To be honest, I don't think any of us would play with somebody that did voice an opinion of 'GW Figures only!' We would give him the boot without hesitation.

*EDIT 2* As long as it is readily apparent what figure is carrying what weapon and wearing what armor....


Of course nor would I complain or be bothered by anyone using / collecting / fielding a non GW product but it's that personal focus I'm talking about to a collector and not a gamer. That's the difference. I think a collector is a different breed of fish than that of a gamer. A gamer is much more flexible because he's in it to play the game and enjoy the thrill of competition. A collector doesn't care about the game and just want the focus of pure perfection - he will always get ripped off in the process of purchases but with the help of recession people find the cheaper resellers of GW. Like I do in fact


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 00:09:05


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 kerikhaos wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
In the current Mordheim and Necromunda games fewer than half of the figures on the table are GW.

For irony, more than half of the figures on the table for the Mantic Kings of War games are GW! (Folks ditching the latest edition of WHFB for a better games system. Many of the non-GW figures were used in the previous edition of WHFB....)

I do not think that anybody in my group gives a skaven's arse if a figure is GW or not.

The Auld Grump

*Edit* To be honest, I don't think any of us would play with somebody that did voice an opinion of 'GW Figures only!' We would give him the boot without hesitation.

*EDIT 2* As long as it is readily apparent what figure is carrying what weapon and wearing what armor....


Of course nor would I complain or be bothered by anyone using / collecting / fielding a non GW product but it's that personal focus I'm talking about to a collector and not a gamer. That's the difference. I think a collector is a different breed of fish than that of a gamer. A gamer is much more flexible because he's in it to play the game and enjoy the thrill of competition. A collector doesn't care about the game and just want the focus of pure perfection - he will always get ripped off in the process of purchases but with the help of recession people find the cheaper resellers of GW. Like I do in fact
Fair enough - I consider myself a gamer that collects/accumulates/hoards.... (Me precccioussss....)

Most of the players in my group go back a ways - some belong to a group that still plays the old AD&D Battlesystem. (Which, I admit, is a better fantasy wargame than any of the recent WHFB editions....)

It helps that the wargame most played in the group has an official stance of 'we don't care who made the miniatures'. (Kings of War - it is even in their tournament rulebook.) So, orcs are orcs, elves are elves, and dwarfs are dwarfs. Most of the Heroes in the dwarf army(ies) that I share with my girlfriend are by Reaper, while the dwarf units are mostly Mantic, with some Avatars of War thrown in.

We have little brand loyalty.

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 01:15:16


Post by: jonolikespie


 kerikhaos wrote:
The question is would you continue buying the GW products but from different retailers if they were cheaper? Obviously having the choice of course.

Would this put a weight of guilt on your shoulders if you were a continuous open tournament player at the local GW (having turning up with Loads of brand new gear) and the local GW management thinking "where did this dude buy all this lot from? I'm sure it wasn't here". Would you feel embarrassed to turn up with the new gear or would you kiss your teeth and keep confident that your buying at a cheaper rate makes you smarter than the average GW collector?

I quests e question is would you feel embarrassed to show up with stuff you bought from elsewhere or just turn up confident as always without giving a second thought?

The question I think will test someone's GW loyalty?...

GW show no loyalty to me and if this where any other company they wouldn't care where I bought it as long as I bought their product and not their competitions.
Also my local GWs can't run tourneys due to lack of staff and space.

I see literally no reason to feel bad or embarrassed about buying from somewhere other than GW direct.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 01:29:56


Post by: Yonan


 jonolikespie wrote:
GW show no loyalty to me and if this where any other company they wouldn't care where I bought it as long as I bought their product and not their competitions.
Also my local GWs can't run tourneys due to lack of staff and space.

I see literally no reason to feel bad or embarrassed about buying from somewhere other than GW direct.

Quite the opposite of loyalty - GW actively show disdain for the customers as has been shown repeatedly on facebook, in the CHS lawsuit and other places. No wonder players rather than feeling embarrassed like that, feel like they're "sticking it to the man" by not buying from GW direct, GW at all or even legit GW.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 01:36:56


Post by: jonolikespie


Indeed.

As well if we are talking collecting rather than playing I simply wouldn't pay anything GW asked as I don't find any collectable value in mass produced plastics. When I look at collecting value I go for the $100 56 or 75mm resin masterpieces that come direct from the sculptors with signed art cards in limited runs of 200 or so.
GW simply can't offer anything like that on the collectables front.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 02:18:55


Post by: Coldhatred


 Fezman wrote:
Lower.

RRPs are getting so high that even with an LGS discount of 20%, I still balk at paying the prices.


When I got a 50% discount as a manager I STILL balked at some of the prices a little bit. $100 (slashed to $50) is crazy for five horsemen when I can get 14 Carabiniers from Perry Miniatures for about $36 which are just as detailed. A slash in prices would not truly get me interested again, until I saw a concerted effort by GW to change many of their practices and modern fallacies.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 08:18:24


Post by: Lanrak


I agree it is the over all value for money that GW plc offer, that has to improve radically to win customers back.

Not just price cuts.
The quality of the rules has to improve dramatically.In the way they are written, (proper editing and proof reading.)
In the content , more complex game play options ,less complication in the rules as written.



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/12 21:51:11


Post by: kerikhaos


I guess there is much to repair before things get better. Since too many greedy directors sit on the top subject of profits I don't think things will change unless there is a dramatic decline in everything GW.

Only then since I don't believe the company wants to sink completely will we see new approaches to the business ethic of GW


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 02:02:26


Post by: Yonan


I'm not sure even a "reasonable" price reduction is enough for me anymore. The value just isn't there due to 1. Shockingly bad rules that only get worse and 2. Destruction of the setting - the #1 selling point of 40k. When Murderfang goes into Murderlust and murders things with his Murderclaws next to santa and his wolf-drawn sleigh... that's enough to turn me off the setting for good.

Dare I say it? Would this have happened with Matt Ward around? ; p


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 08:22:52


Post by: Fireraven


 Yonan wrote:
I'm not sure even a "reasonable" price reduction is enough for me anymore. The value just isn't there due to 1. Shockingly bad rules that only get worse and 2. Destruction of the setting - the #1 selling point of 40k. When Murderfang goes into Murderlust and murders things with his Murderclaws next to santa and his wolf-drawn sleigh... that's enough to turn me off the setting for good.

Dare I say it? Would this have happened with Matt Ward around? ; p



Pure awsome sauce. Best reply yet. But don't you want your army to have some op piece just like that?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 12:35:06


Post by: kerikhaos


my question is why do the break the damn game? I mean if it wasn't broke then why try to fix it? It is so far from what I can tell unbalanced, unfair and limits people more and more to do what they could before.

When they write rules don't they acknowledge the effect it has on everyone and everything? I do think that having sooo many SM codex's and constant changes the in game it forces the game to break. So my question is why do they do it? Its as if they want to reduce numbers in the playing area of 40k by putting players off with their broken rules.

In chess one opponent doesn't start off with more powerful pieces than the other and yet the game is always super exiting and well balanced considering both players know what they are doing (as the same in 40k). So why have tier armies develop from bad rules? One year BA are up the chart next they are the lowest in the list?

You cant do this gak to your customers and gamers GW.....

talking of management and all the mcdonalds vs 5 star restaurant comparisons.....its like a 5 star hotel being run by the drivers from YODAL (possibly the crappest delivery company in the WORLD)

sorry I used YODAL because yet again I have had a super BAD EXPERIENCE WITH THEM as another reputable company has decided to use these fools to save on delivery charges


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 12:59:01


Post by: RJCarrot


They are selling molded plastic at exorbitant prices.

Though in their favor, to stay open in as few places as they already are, they need to up charge as their clientele is only so deep.

Like the guy that runs our shop said, this isn't magic where they come out with a new set every 3 months. Once you buy a space marine, its a space marine.... the worst you have to do is paint it a different color for a new army.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 13:06:37


Post by: Yonan


If the story actually progressed they'd have excuse to sell us new stuff. Oh the Tyranids overran Ultramar and are pushing hard? Here's some mechanicus automatons to add to your armies to help fight them. What's that, the Necrons are waking up? Here's an old eldar necron fighting specialist unit and an Ordo Xenos unit utilising Necron technology. Black Crusade owns Cadia? New line of Cadians with a more "resistance" feel to them.

Bam, new stuff for people to buy.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 13:13:44


Post by: RJCarrot


But really how frequent is that...


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 13:14:54


Post by: Yonan


They don't do it, but they could and it could be done frequently. An ever changing narrative would provide heaps of fodder for changing the meta and releasing new units without invalidating old ones.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/13 18:37:29


Post by: kerikhaos


It would cost them for new moulds for the upgrades. They can't do that no way with their mentality of profits ONLY


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/14 05:25:02


Post by: rayphoton


 Yonan wrote:
If the story actually progressed they'd have excuse to sell us new stuff. Oh the Tyranids overran Ultramar and are pushing hard? Here's some mechanicus automatons to add to your armies to help fight them. What's that, the Necrons are waking up? Here's an old eldar necron fighting specialist unit and an Ordo Xenos unit utilising Necron technology. Black Crusade owns Cadia? New line of Cadians with a more "resistance" feel to them.

Bam, new stuff for people to buy.


Warmachine does it.......and does it well. Your warcaster did some bad ass stuff in the story and got promoted, now they are epic and here's the miniature and rules for it


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 16:27:51


Post by: 40KNobz11


Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 16:30:04


Post by: Wayniac


40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 16:34:54


Post by: Yonan


40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it... It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price

No we don't aaaand no we won't. We have many other options such as third party models or recasters. GW doesn't have the power - if they don't want to play nice a lot of us won't either.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 16:49:17


Post by: Grimtuff


WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


My other hobby of mining for uranium in my back yard makes GW's prices seem like a pittance.

Am I doing this right?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 17:49:21


Post by: Wayniac


 Grimtuff wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


My other hobby of mining for uranium in my back yard makes GW's prices seem like a pittance.

Am I doing this right?


YES! YES! YES!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 17:56:04


Post by: vipoid


Indeed, I used to think GW prices were unreasonable, but then I compared it to my other hobby - world domination.

Do you know how many GW models I could buy for the price of even a small Doomsday-weapon?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 22:10:30


Post by: jonolikespie


 vipoid wrote:
Indeed, I used to think GW prices were unreasonable, but then I compared it to my other hobby - world domination.

Do you know how many GW models I could buy for the price of even a small Doomsday-weapon?

Two whole boxes of 5?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 22:17:42


Post by: 40KNobz11


WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


Compared to other companies that do tabletop games yes its a bit more expensive, but the GW models are way nicer than any PP model and most other companies. Yes its a little more expensive to get into but so is a lot of things. If you enjoy playing (I DO) it shouldn't really matter, its just money after all, why not spend it on something you enjoy...... whats the point in having it then? If you have to save up a little to buy some nice stuff its all worth it to me!!


Its totally comparable to cars in the fact that both are hobbies that we do and enjoy. Maybe your other hobby isn't cars, MTG for example gets expensive if you really wanna get into it. So does lots of other things.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 22:45:32


Post by: Pacific


 jonolikespie wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Indeed, I used to think GW prices were unreasonable, but then I compared it to my other hobby - world domination.

Do you know how many GW models I could buy for the price of even a small Doomsday-weapon?

Two whole boxes of 5?


In all honesty I think you probably could get some form of WMD for less than the price that the GW website was selling the marine chapter for..


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 23:24:23


Post by: jonolikespie


40KNobz11 wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


Compared to other companies that do tabletop games yes its a bit more expensive, but the GW models are way nicer than any PP model and most other companies. Yes its a little more expensive to get into but so is a lot of things. If you enjoy playing (I DO) it shouldn't really matter, its just money after all, why not spend it on something you enjoy...... whats the point in having it then? If you have to save up a little to buy some nice stuff its all worth it to me!!


Its totally comparable to cars in the fact that both are hobbies that we do and enjoy. Maybe your other hobby isn't cars, MTG for example gets expensive if you really wanna get into it. So does lots of other things.

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.

Aesthetics wise I'll agree that 40k beats Warmachine, but that is just an opinion. If you look at technical detail GW is nothing special at all. Most plastic manufacturers are on par with them and most resins and metals blow GW plastics out of the water.

Now as for your points about paying it because you love the hobby and GW being comparable to cars, you're making a single, large, mistake there.
GW is not a hobby. It is part of a hobby only. Those of us that love the hobby can, and in my case at least do, spend thousands on our hobby without touching GW stuff. It is also why the car analogy fails, you can't compare one company in a hobby to another *whole* hobby.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 23:39:51


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 Grimtuff wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


My other hobby of mining for uranium in my back yard makes GW's prices seem like a pittance.

Am I doing this right?


Pretty much... Consider the most unlikely and expensive of hobbies and build your straw man to suit.

I tell you what, 40K is much cheaper than my hobby of hookers and blow - but much less rewarding too.

Granted, I had just replaced the coil overs on my "Initial D" goof off car (old AE86 I have been messing with for almost 20 years) and it only set me back $600 for a premium set of adjustable PB coil overs on all 4 corners. Think that is probably less than a 40K army with all the fixings. The last time I replaced them was in the late 1990s IIRC, so 15+ years worth and no Codex creep to invalidate my previous coil overs.

The same tends to go for my other hobbies (wood working, sculpting, computers, camping, boating...). Sure, I can spend more - and in fact often do...but I am still using a 20+ year old canoe when I want to go out for a paddle and when I want a new throttle body for one of my cars, I have dozens of choices. When I change out the differential on my truck, I will get another 100K miles out of it and it is a useful thing that I can use for towing my boat or pulling stumps. If I invest in my miniature hobby - it is not a useful thing...unless they are metal, then I have more paper weights.

When I bought my band saw - it cost a good bit more than a good sized 40K army, but I have been using it for years now and it has allowed me to save significant amounts of money over buying furniture straight away - not to mention that it has probably paid for itself on little side jobs that I have done for people. Same goes for most my other woodworking tools (though I do admit - it hasn't quite paid for the shop to house them all...yet).


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/17 23:55:11


Post by: TheAuldGrump


40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price

No, really, 'we all' don't.

You do - but by no means do you speak for 'all' of us.

And, if GW's own sales figures are to be believed, there is a diminishing percentage of 'we all' that do 'buy it'.

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 00:46:29


Post by: 40KNobz11


 jonolikespie wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


Compared to other companies that do tabletop games yes its a bit more expensive, but the GW models are way nicer than any PP model and most other companies. Yes its a little more expensive to get into but so is a lot of things. If you enjoy playing (I DO) it shouldn't really matter, its just money after all, why not spend it on something you enjoy...... whats the point in having it then? If you have to save up a little to buy some nice stuff its all worth it to me!!


Its totally comparable to cars in the fact that both are hobbies that we do and enjoy. Maybe your other hobby isn't cars, MTG for example gets expensive if you really wanna get into it. So does lots of other things.

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.

Aesthetics wise I'll agree that 40k beats Warmachine, but that is just an opinion. If you look at technical detail GW is nothing special at all. Most plastic manufacturers are on par with them and most resins and metals blow GW plastics out of the water.

Now as for your points about paying it because you love the hobby and GW being comparable to cars, you're making a single, large, mistake there.
GW is not a hobby. It is part of a hobby only. Those of us that love the hobby can, and in my case at least do, spend thousands on our hobby without touching GW stuff. It is also why the car analogy fails, you can't compare one company in a hobby to another *whole* hobby.


Infinity you also need at least 1/4 of the models, probably less. Its a way smaller scale than 40k, is it not? Theres why its cheaper




GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 01:04:17


Post by: jonolikespie


1 metal infinity model that is very finely detailed costs between $11 and $16 down here, depending on where you buy it. GW sell much less detailed plastic single minis for over $20 each here.

*Edit* I just checked, it was $11 to $23. Literally under half the price of a GW model.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 01:44:57


Post by: TheAuldGrump


40KNobz11 wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


Compared to other companies that do tabletop games yes its a bit more expensive, but the GW models are way nicer than any PP model and most other companies. Yes its a little more expensive to get into but so is a lot of things. If you enjoy playing (I DO) it shouldn't really matter, its just money after all, why not spend it on something you enjoy...... whats the point in having it then? If you have to save up a little to buy some nice stuff its all worth it to me!!


Its totally comparable to cars in the fact that both are hobbies that we do and enjoy. Maybe your other hobby isn't cars, MTG for example gets expensive if you really wanna get into it. So does lots of other things.

The question is not just 'Is it too expensive?', but also 'Is it worth the money?' - two related, but separate questions.

Let us see... going by my personal opinion, only....
Are GW miniatures better than those for Infinity?... Nope! Are they Cheaper?... Nope!
Are they better than Reaper?... Nope! Are they cheaper?... Nope!
Are they better than Avatars of War?...? Nope! Are they cheaper?... Sometimes! (But not always... and I like the AoW dwarfs better than those of GW.)
Are they better than Mantic?... Mostly! Are they cheaper?... Hell no! (Mantic is much cheaper, and still wins - I still buy Mantic, and have not bought any GW in years. Plus, I really like the Mantic Undead....)
Are they better than Forge World?... Hell no! Are they cheaper?... ... ... Usually, but not always.... (Yes, I know that Forge World is a branch of GW - but they make better models, and are better value for money.)

So, in my opinion, GW is not giving value for money.

To continue your automobile analogy - in GW we are looking at a $100,000 Yugo, labeled as a Porsche... But it is still a Yugo.

It is not worth $100,000....

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 09:59:04


Post by: sciencemile


And you have to assemble and paint the Yugo yourself <_<


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 10:30:44


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I just bought a Warzone starter box for £31 withe lots of figures, the rules are free online. Packs of the standard Brotherhood figures are five for £12 in Dark Sphere, they're all different sculpts and made in resin, there was almost no clean up. I don't know where they've hidden the mould lines on some figures, it's impressive.

What would a box of five resin figures cost from GW? More than £12 I wager, even if they were in plastic they would cost more. And I've looked at Finecast, it often looks a dog's dinner in the pack. So what's their excuse?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 10:35:11


Post by: heartserenade


Ahg, are we doing the "GW is cheap because other hobbies are more expensive" route combined with "GW minis are priced just fine and they only look expensive because you need a lot of them"?


Look, even with armies that needs tons of models, you can get tons of miniatures with the same quality of GW's offerings without quality suffering. They literally charge four times as more if you compare it on a per model basis with plastics.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 18:47:15


Post by: Col. Tartleton


Just to quickly look at some Empire units to illustrate the lack of rhyme or reason. I wouldn't call my recommendations cheap, just far more competitive and reasonable.

Empire Crossbowmen/Handgunners: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $14.99
Actual Retail Price: $24.75

Empire Great Cannon/Mortar: 3x 20x20mm bases; Warmachine
Recommended Retail Price: $14.99
Actual Retail Price: $25.00

Empire Pistoliers/Outriders: 5x 20x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $29.00

Empire Flagellants: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $29.00

Empire Reiksguard Knights/Knightly Orders: 8x 20x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $24.99
Actual Retail Price: $35.00

Empire Greatswords: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $41.25

Empire Demigryph Knights: 3x 40x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $54.50

I'm particularly puzzled by Demigryph prices. They're only slightly larger than normal cavalry and you only get 3 of them. Why should the customer pay more for them than for 5 horsemen?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 19:13:12


Post by: heartserenade


Because feth you, we're GW and we charge the feth we want, that's why. -GW Management


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 19:32:08


Post by: Wayniac


You know.. having just dropped about $150 on a Warjack, caster, and two units for my Khador army (although Iron Fang Pikemen, the most expensive infantry unit in the game), it's not so much the overall prices of GW's products, it's the amount you need to matter.

Sure some thing are just crazy like the Witch Elves, but overall what turns me off from bothering with 40k is just the fact that I need to buy multiples or, worse buy two boxes to make a single unit. That's the kind of stuff they need to get away from. If the game was a bit smaller scale, the price wouldn't be as bad. If you didn't outright get ripped off with things like bikes, assault units and the like, it would be pricey but not terrible.

That $150 would likely get me the same thing for 40k, give or take (Captain, a Dreadnought, a Tactical Squad and a bike squad?). But it's a nice addition to my Khador army while the same in 40k is minuscule; I can't do anything with that $150. Now granted I already have about another $150 worth of Khador that I'm adding to, but there's a disconnect in perception when I can buy four things and it represents a significant change to my force versus four things that are just there.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/18 20:39:28


Post by: Herzlos


40KNobz11 wrote:

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price


I love the hobby and I pay the prices. I'm just grateful that the hobby extends beyond GW I've got projects in progress for: Flames Of War, Malifaux, Infinity, Bolt Action, Ronin, Hail Caesar, Dystopian Wars, Incursion, and that's just the stuff with rules I've also got a few thousand dollars worth of stuff in boxes to paint some day (Including the Home Guard from Dad's Army, some Ammon mini's LE's, Kabuki, Kingdom Death, Scribor, Raging Heroes, and dozens more I can't name).

It's a great time to be in the hobby. It's a terrible time to be a GW player.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/19 01:01:24


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 Col. Tartleton wrote:
Just to quickly look at some Empire units to illustrate the lack of rhyme or reason. I wouldn't call my recommendations cheap, just far more competitive and reasonable.

Empire Crossbowmen/Handgunners: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $14.99
Actual Retail Price: $24.75

Empire Great Cannon/Mortar: 3x 20x20mm bases; Warmachine
Recommended Retail Price: $14.99
Actual Retail Price: $25.00

Empire Pistoliers/Outriders: 5x 20x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $29.00

Empire Flagellants: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $29.00

Empire Reiksguard Knights/Knightly Orders: 8x 20x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $24.99
Actual Retail Price: $35.00

Empire Greatswords: 10x 20x20mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $41.25

Empire Demigryph Knights: 3x 40x40mm bases
Recommended Retail Price: $19.99
Actual Retail Price: $54.50

I'm particularly puzzled by Demigryph prices. They're only slightly larger than normal cavalry and you only get 3 of them. Why should the customer pay more for them than for 5 horsemen?
If you are doing Empire, and do not care whether or not you are using official GW miniatures... the Perry historicals are your friend....

And since I play Kings of War these days... I could give a rat's arse about 'official' GW....

The Auld Grump


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/19 16:32:22


Post by: Col. Tartleton


I'm not, I'm just using the "main" fantasy faction. Although I guess it could be warriors of chaos. One or the other.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 01:10:13


Post by: Chute82


$29.75 for a ork lobba in fine cast. I remember paying under $10 for that model when it was metal. 3x the price for the same sculpt.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 01:58:30


Post by: jonolikespie


 Chute82 wrote:
$29.75 for a ork lobba in fine cast. I remember paying under $10 for that model when it was metal. 3x the price for the same sculpt.

Same sculpt in a cheaper, inferior material even.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 02:04:48


Post by: Karl the Jarl


For each item? About tree fiddy.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 03:04:36


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Grimtuff wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


My other hobby of mining for uranium in my back yard makes GW's prices seem like a pittance.

Am I doing this right?



Sounds like you need a real hobby. I clone A-list celebrities, bed them once, and then launch them into deep space. Each with a 2,000 point WFB army.

If GW doesn't stop raising their prices, I'm going to have to cut back to only once a week. Or use 3rd party, B-list TV stars. Eugh.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 04:34:31


Post by: jonolikespie


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



But GW overall costs MORE than other *comparative* hobbies, especially when you're just getting started. Comparing a wargame to cars is a non sequitur..

A lot of us don't still buy it because the price point has gotten too high for the value.


My other hobby of mining for uranium in my back yard makes GW's prices seem like a pittance.

Am I doing this right?



Sounds like you need a real hobby. I clone A-list celebrities, bed them once, and then launch them into deep space. Each with a 2,000 point WFB army.

If GW doesn't stop raising their prices, I'm going to have to cut back to only once a week. Or use 3rd party, B-list TV stars. Eugh.

It probably would be a lot more feasible if you gave them each 2000 point kings of war armies.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 04:43:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 jonolikespie wrote:

It probably would be a lot more feasible if you gave them each 2000 point kings of war armies.


Pssh. Might as well drive a Kia and drink Bud Lite.

I suppose I could send a few out with the full Kingdom Death range in resin...but that just screams "try-hard".


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 04:53:05


Post by: 40KNobz11


But in reality no matter how much anyone complains, prices will not go down. They "seem" to be stable for the last 1.5 years or so. Lets hope they stay that way for a while.... Id rather pay these prices than higher one

Or just buy stuff off other people, let them pay the full price and you pay 25-40% of it


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 04:54:58


Post by: -Loki-


WayneTheGame wrote:
You know.. having just dropped about $150 on a Warjack, caster, and two units for my Khador army (although Iron Fang Pikemen, the most expensive infantry unit in the game), it's not so much the overall prices of GW's products, it's the amount you need to matter.

Sure some thing are just crazy like the Witch Elves, but overall what turns me off from bothering with 40k is just the fact that I need to buy multiples or, worse buy two boxes to make a single unit. That's the kind of stuff they need to get away from. If the game was a bit smaller scale, the price wouldn't be as bad. If you didn't outright get ripped off with things like bikes, assault units and the like, it would be pricey but not terrible.


For my Vampire Counts, I have 50 skeletons. That's 5 boxes. They make up 250pts, so the Core for a 1000pt army. If I want to stick to the Skeleton theme, for a 3000pt army, I need another 10 boxes, totalling 150 skeletons. For my Core only and not considering models that will be raised mid game.

This is absolutely one of the main problems with Games Workshop games. The other problem is still price. If I paid retail, that would be $600au. Again, for only my Core, and not considering models that will be raised mid game.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 04:58:09


Post by: jonolikespie


40KNobz11 wrote:
But in reality no matter how much anyone complains, prices will not go down. They "seem" to be stable for the last 1.5 years or so. Lets hope they stay that way for a while.... Id rather pay these prices than higher one

Or just buy stuff off other people, let them pay the full price and you pay 25-40% of it

They only SEEM stable because GW have stopped across the board price increases. The costs have been getting absurdly high on newly released products while the rest stays flat unless it is quietly reboxed.

And if GW listed to their fans maybe prices would go down and people would begin buying again.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 05:25:57


Post by: TheKbob


Bane Knights... $85 for that pile of metal... WHEW. But I know I'm only gonna need one.

Or... MOAR BANEZ, GIMME THREE! AND eGORESHADE! BAENEZZZZ!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/20 19:33:19


Post by: kerikhaos


I think it still boils down to a company's ability to feed of its so called rep on the addicted ( that's us ).

What I mean us they began selling models for descent prices and for a while grew a huge fan base which then grew even bigger worldwide. Typical success story of how humble beginning turns into a giant profit making corp which loses sync with its customer not to mention the whole planet.

Company then stops showing interest and attempts to roll over a specific turnover every year by ripping off it's existing customers to compensate for the clever ones buying from elsewhere.

Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 04:33:39


Post by: Toofast


40KNobz11 wrote:
Really yes prices are a little high, but hey we all still buy it. Its a hobby, hobbies can be expensive. Look at cars as a hobby. I do some autocross racing in the summer. A nice set of coilovers runs you like $1300 or so depending on the ones you want.

It all comes down to if you love the hobby you'll pay the price



Where did you find nice coilovers for $1300? I spent double that lol. GW could double prices and still be my cheap hobby by a long shot. As far as what their prices should be, whatever they can sell stuff at and see enough ROI to be worth it.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 04:35:44


Post by: Yonan


Toofast wrote:
As far as what their prices should be, whatever they can sell stuff at and see enough ROI to be worth it.

Which sales data has shown to be a lower price than their current one. GW is losing customers to other companies every year backed up by their financial reports and those of other tabletop companies.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 05:12:28


Post by: -Loki-


 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative


I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 06:03:08


Post by: Toofast


 Yonan wrote:
Toofast wrote:
As far as what their prices should be, whatever they can sell stuff at and see enough ROI to be worth it.

Which sales data has shown to be a lower price than their current one. GW is losing customers to other companies every year backed up by their financial reports and those of other tabletop companies.


From anecdotal evidence, the price is more often a result of people leaving than the cause. People leave because of crappy, unbalanced rules and ridiculous new releases (recent SW). The water leaking out of the bathtub exceeds the rate that the bathtub is filling up. GW then has to raise prices to compensate for less people buying their gak. Said price raises then cause a few more to leave, perpetuating the cycle and leading to the current death spiral of the company.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 06:27:57


Post by: Yonan


GW started raising prices before the falling sales. As I understand it (having come in at tail of 5th) the rules have always been gak. If bad rules was the problem it would have been shown in the financial results long ago.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 08:11:01


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 Yonan wrote:
GW started raising prices before the falling sales. As I understand it (having come in at tail of 5th) the rules have always been gak. If bad rules was the problem it would have been shown in the financial results long ago.


GW's issues are much deeper than simply better rules (they really haven't changed much in 15 years) or cheaper models (lots of companies cost more per figure) or even ridiculous releases (40K has really always been a parody of...well everything). The issue with GW is really GW.

Even if they cut their prices in half over night, I don't think you would see a rush of customers back or store owners making room for them on the shelves again. Even if they hired the best rules writers available and had them write a set of solid, balanced, play tested and edited set of rules...it would likely not change things for most people. They have managed, over the past 20 years of management decisions, to alienate one group after another and they have gotten to the point where the ones who are left are not buying enough to keep up with their rising expenses (largely management expenses at that).

For things to change - what would need to happen is for GW to reinvent themselves and then do the hard work of actually convincing people that they have changed. Considering they are still trying to mess around with things like the ACCC application in Australia, appear to still be following the same insane pricing (not a failure on its own - but as part of the collective behavior), rules for the bean counters not for the game...it doesn't look like GW will be reinventing themselves anytime soon.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 08:34:19


Post by: Yonan


Yeah they're showing no signs of reducing the idiocy, it's just speeding up with worse pricing on new releases, Murderface Murdersson, insane legal stunts (not in a good way) and so on.

The new undead guy is $AU150 ($US140) for two sprues, and $US105 on your end. Neither is anywhere near acceptable imo.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 16:55:21


Post by: chnmmr


Talking from the UK perspective, model wise I think the 20% most FLGS offer puts GW stuff at just about right.

I do think GW needs to stop with all these fancy rule books, army books, etc. and offer a mini rule/codex that's literally just the rules/army lists, and what we currently have now as the standard rulebook/army book.

Data slates are a rip off. They should be half price.

I think many people fall into the trap that a 40% price drop will result in GW making equal or more profit than they do now. It may work for other industries but I'm not convinced it would for GW.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 17:48:51


Post by: ntw3001


Certain releases should be given out for free with a handwritten apology. Buy generally, £10-15 for a squad of 10 guys, and £20-25 for a box of 20 guys. Characters can be £8-10. Vehicles... I dunno. £15-25?


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 18:41:50


Post by: Sean_OBrien


chnmmr wrote:
Talking from the UK perspective, model wise I think the 20% most FLGS offer puts GW stuff at just about right.

I do think GW needs to stop with all these fancy rule books, army books, etc. and offer a mini rule/codex that's literally just the rules/army lists, and what we currently have now as the standard rulebook/army book.

Data slates are a rip off. They should be half price.

I think many people fall into the trap that a 40% price drop will result in GW making equal or more profit than they do now. It may work for other industries but I'm not convinced it would for GW.


The thing to keep in mind though is that for most of the world - just dropping it down to the actual UK retail price and applying a FLGS discount actually ends up being a 40-60% discount. Between the VAT and the screw Canada and Australia taxes...

The other thing of course is that of GW's personnel - 353 of the 1753 employees are involved with designing or manufacturing the products. 1000 or so are retail store employees. The rest are paper pushers and bean counters. They could likely save £5 million by eliminating redundant administrative positions. The retail arm provides 42% of total sales (£51 million) but it costs them £35 million to make those sales (likely more than that as that doesn't include things like utilities, insurance and other expenses). They make more money selling through independent stores, and could make even more if they cut the retail arm entirely.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 19:42:52


Post by: Overlord Thraka


Boyz: I'd be happy with $20 a box. Less than $15 wouldn't garner profits.

Nobz: I actually think it's fine as it is. Down to like $20 would be nice, but for all the bitz we get I'm fine with it

Lootas/Burnas: Again, fine with the price. See above

Trukk: The Trukk is too expensive. I feel it should be $25-$30ish

Tankbustas: $25. Finecast isn't that great and they are monopose models.

Kommandos: See Tankbustas

Meganobz: $40. Again. The extra bitz are worth $40. NOT $63.

ALL HQ's: $18-$25 Ghazzy might be worth more but not $40. MAAAAAYBE $32, but not $40

Battlewagons: Eh... $45ish

Killakanz: $30-$35

Deffdread: $30-$35

Mekgunz: $25-$30

Orkanaut: $70-$85

Stompa: $95-$120





GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/24 19:46:36


Post by: trexmeyer


About 25 to 50% less depending on the model. Blood Knights at $80+ is absurdity.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/27 18:34:59


Post by: kerikhaos


 -Loki- wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative


I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.


It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/27 19:37:57


Post by: Saldiven


 kerikhaos wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative


I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.


It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.


Keep in mind that GW's most recent set of financial statements indicate that people like you (who will always choose to buy GW products over any competitor) are becoming more and more rare.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/27 19:44:16


Post by: jasper76


I could stomach $3/Space Marine. So that's $30/box of 10. IIRC, that woud be 25% off what they're charging now.

So my magic number is 25% off current pricing, and I stop automatically looking for conversion stuff as my first step in filling my 40k needs.

Never happen, but there ya go.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/27 19:56:18


Post by: kerikhaos


Saldiven wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative


I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.


It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.


Keep in mind that GW's most recent set of financial statements indicate that people like you (who will always choose to buy GW products over any competitor) are becoming more and more rare.


I'm pretty sure the stats show sales from their own shops. People like myself won't be on those stats because we buy from a cheaper source as were not light headed like that. Plus there are still many who JUST run the eBay circuit and just buy from their. Again those stats won't show and to be fair the stats from GW can't be that of evidence because if it's actually showing anything it's just proving their losing direct customers.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 02:25:46


Post by: adamsouza


 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.


And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

Also, I just did a quick check, the US Infinity models price per model is comparable to GW models.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 02:29:17


Post by: Yonan


 adamsouza wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.


And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

... of course it does? That's the point? GW is the only tabletop company unethical enough to pull a bullgak stunt like that. Amusingly, copyright violations skyrocket down here when companies pull stunts like that, be it software, media or in GWs case, easily copyable miniatures and books.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 07:54:52


Post by: jonolikespie


 Yonan wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is not a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.


And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

... of course it does? That's the point? GW is the only tabletop company unethical enough to pull a bullgak stunt like that. Amusingly, copyright violations skyrocket down here when companies pull stunts like that, be it software, media or in GWs case, easily copyable miniatures and books.

Yep. The last 2 season openers and maybe a finale too for Game of Thrones have broken legit records for most pirated show down here in ye ol' land of Oz because the only way we can legally view it is by paying Foxtel for like 20 other channels you don't want.

Bringing it back to the point Adam was trying to make though, I bought 16 metal models for something like $165. Metal. That's the key word there. Metal. An infinity army is essentially a group of hero characters on the table, even if they are not statted like that the technical details and materials used do put them on par with hero characters from other companies, you can't compare them to mass produced plastics.
So I bought 16 hero models for $165 in metal, that's a little over $10 a model.
Now, I don't know why I should care about what GW charge the US but ok lets compare for arguments sake. What I am seeing is $22.25 for a single 28mm Finecast character model.
Model for Model infinity is cheaper. GW doesn't have a leg to stand on in this argument.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 08:56:07


Post by: beastyboy


A lot cheaper. There pieces of plastic, they get enough money out of everyone for the paints, brushes and everything else you need!


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 09:22:52


Post by: Toofast


Yes, because clearly a multi million dollar, international company can survive on just the profit from $4-8 items that they pay someone else to produce for them and slap their name on the label. Paints and brushes are a tiny drop in a very large bucket. To say they can considerably cut prices on models because they make a lot of profit on paint, brushes and glue is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a price drop, I'm saying that qualifying it with a statement like that is not going to win you any debates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 09:44:42


Post by: PhantomViper


 kerikhaos wrote:

I'm pretty sure the stats show sales from their own shops. People like myself won't be on those stats because we buy from a cheaper source as were not light headed like that. Plus there are still many who JUST run the eBay circuit and just buy from their. Again those stats won't show and to be fair the stats from GW can't be that of evidence because if it's actually showing anything it's just proving their losing direct customers.


You're wrong. The financial report shows the sales through all of their channels (and that includes sales to third parties as well), and they have pretty much all dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toofast wrote:

Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.


GW has mentioned an average profitability of around 70% on each of their miniature kits, that means after all the development and production costs have been factored in and, AFAIK, that is taking into consideration the money that they get when selling to retailers and not the final price that the consumer pays (you need to slap about an extra 40% on top for that).

GW doesn't set model prices based on their production and development costs, they set their model prices based on how much they think their customers will pay for them.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 10:49:30


Post by: Shandara


PhantomViper wrote:

GW doesn't set model prices based on their production and development costs, they set their model prices based on how much they think their customers will pay for them.


Strangely enough all companies do this.

It's just a problem when the total costs for the product are so large that they still don't make much profit from them. Hence GW's problems with their huge fixed costs thanks to their retail chain and associated human resources.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 15:39:02


Post by: Brennonjw


Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic. First, I'd want to see their profit margine, i think maybe taking 10% off of current prices wouldn't hurt their business to much.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 15:52:52


Post by: vipoid


 Brennonjw wrote:
Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic.


Or bad resin.

I mean, imagine if their resin models were advertised as these amazing things, yet were actually brittle, bent and frequently full of air-holes.

Wouldn't that be just dreadful?

 Brennonjw wrote:
First, I'd want to see their profit margine,


I believe the average is about 70%.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/28 18:12:19


Post by: Vermis


 Brennonjw wrote:
Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic.


They use the same high impact polystyrene as all those historicals companies that can sell fewer boxes (I assume) for about 50p a figure. Cheaper =/= restic, or PVC, or whatever.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/29 02:38:20


Post by: Toofast


I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/29 02:48:11


Post by: Yonan


Toofast wrote:
I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.

No, it's not. A "piece of plastic" is stamped out in a few seconds. Basically any cheap "piece of plastic" is stamped out like that. A car takes hundreds of man hours to assemble and only then thanks to billions (tens of? hundreds of?) of dollars in capital and investment, otherwise it would be impossible, take far longer and/or be far inferior, and is made up of thousands of different parts with square kilometres of factory space devoted to producing it. To compare the pre-production or the production of one to the other is ridiculous. Allow me to paraphrase you:

"To compare production of plastic miniatures to production of cars is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument"


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/29 02:48:23


Post by: lliu


Made to order. You customize the options online and the stores show some options.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/29 04:08:52


Post by: jonolikespie


 Yonan wrote:
Toofast wrote:
I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.

No, it's not. A "piece of plastic" is stamped out in a few seconds. Basically any cheap "piece of plastic" is stamped out like that. A car takes hundreds of man hours to assemble and only then thanks to billions (tens of? hundreds of?) of dollars in capital and investment, otherwise it would be impossible, take far longer and/or be far inferior, and is made up of thousands of different parts with square kilometres of factory space devoted to producing it. To compare the pre-production or the production of one to the other is ridiculous. Allow me to paraphrase you:

"To compare production of plastic miniatures to production of cars is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument"

I get what he was trying to say, that they need time and money to get a sculptor to make the master, then tens of thousands of dollars to make the moulds, but ultimately you're right. Cars are complex and after the mould is paid off a space marine box of two sprues is probably about 20 cents of plastic.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/08/29 04:16:08


Post by: Sean_OBrien


Toofast wrote:
Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.


Millions of dollars...well, there is your problem. If GW is spending millions of dollars to develop one kit...

Realistic development costs per kit are closer to $75-100K. Each one will hang around for 10 years or so, and during that time unless it is a even a complete dud will be down in the $5 range for each kit over the life of the product. Toss in a few bucks for manufacturing, and give it a 300% markup, and they should be able to sell almost anything for $30 a box or less and still make a profit. The reality is that most of them sell enough to have the development costs down in the $1 or less range per kit. Actual manufacturing costs are down close to that two (both for the plastic and the fancy box to put them in). Everything else is just waste, that if they would have spent the last 10 years fixing...they would be in a much better position than they are now. While other companies have become more efficient, GW has managed to make themselves much less efficient in doing things.

GW is strangling themselves in their added costs. It is funny though, the past several years, GW has gone through and cut out a lot of the regional HQs and other costs (like Games Day) but they haven't bothered to actually touch the dead weight in Nottingham. Since 2001 - their administrative staff has doubled, while the production and development staff has remained roughly the same. Even with effectively closing down all offices outside of the UK this past year, barely put a dent in the administrative staffing numbers. All of those middle managers are expensive to feed - especially when you consider than there are more people administering then there are people actually making stuff. That would be fine I guess - if they used outside contracts for tooling or manufacturing, but everything is done in house.

From what I hear - they spend almost as much time figuring out how to make sure the next heads on the chopping block are not theirs as they do actually doing anything productive.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/09/01 18:43:54


Post by: OrkaMorka


Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?

Paint I can see them living off of well.

But the bits around it seem kind of a waste. Between a vice that can barely hold itself down, a pair of clippers I can buy that are smaller at Canadian tire for a third of the price, and brushes I can buy in the bulk at Micheals; how do these items even fair in profit?

Glue in itself, no one I know seems to be a huge fan of. A lot of people in my area use the various super glues or similar. I use Gale Force 9 glue and activator, another guy I know lives off of Gorilla Glue.

Serious question, not a sarcastic one. I imagine these items are not cheap to mass produce or even sell.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/09/02 11:08:55


Post by: PhantomViper


OrkaMorka wrote:
Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?

Paint I can see them living off of well.

But the bits around it seem kind of a waste. Between a vice that can barely hold itself down, a pair of clippers I can buy that are smaller at Canadian tire for a third of the price, and brushes I can buy in the bulk at Micheals; how do these items even fair in profit?

Glue in itself, no one I know seems to be a huge fan of. A lot of people in my area use the various super glues or similar. I use Gale Force 9 glue and activator, another guy I know lives off of Gorilla Glue.

Serious question, not a sarcastic one. I imagine these items are not cheap to mass produce or even sell.


They don't manufacture any of those things. They are all made by third party companies and just re-branded by GW.


GAMES WORKSHOP - What should their products sell price really be? @ 2014/09/02 12:23:53


Post by: Herzlos


OrkaMorka wrote:
Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?


They buy them in and sell on at at least 100% markup - the profit for the effort involved is pretty good. Same with paints I believe - it's made by someone else and bought in.

The only stuff they make in house are the minis - even the books and boxes are bought in from printers.