As this topic continues to develop, both from new rumors and information gleaned from the WHFB End Times books, I will continue to add/delete information as it becomes available.
The newest information is at the top, while older rumors/information will be at the bottom.
+++
Confirmed Destruction of the Old World via END TIMES: Archaon:
Charles Rampant wrote: Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.
Spoiler:
Original Series of Rumors in January- Harry and Darnok's original information about this future release:
Spoiler:
I have copied the original source from Darnok over on Warseer below. As there seem to be a number of sources coming out leading to further developments in this story, I will continue to added them below the main article in spoilers.
Darnok wrote:If you like Warhammer, I suggest you better take a seat.
Over the last few months I got a few glimpses on what WHF could change to in the very near future. I have collected messages, asked questions, and tried to form a somewhat coherent picture. The one thing I believe by now is: Warhammer in its current form will no longer be supported by GW. It will be transformed into something else, with everything built up in background and most of the model range being kicked out of the door.
To give you an insight into some of the messages I got, have a look at the following. Please note that I am paraphrasing at times, and have cut out (hopefully) everything that could lead to the original identities of my friendly birdies.
Quote Originally Posted by Birdy
- 9th Edition to pick up where the ET leaves off in fluff, plus a couple of hundred years or so (to reboot the setting).
- The Warhammer World gets shattered on a dimensional level during the climax of the ET. No more "map of the Old World" - it's now little bubbles of reality, where pockets of civilisation try desperately to eke a living before the next collision with another bubble, which may be full of Chaos. (To address the problem of "how come my Tomb Kings of Khemri are fighting against Wood Elves from Athel Loren?", not that I get the impression that either of those will still exist, but you get the idea)
- New faction... heavily armoured, religious, "good" human warriors fighting with the power of the gods. (Warhammer Space Marines, basically). Karl Franz Ascended seems to be the prototype or precursor for this concept, AFAICT.
Quote Originally Posted by Another Birdy
9th edition will have 6 factions. Model diversity cut in half shelf space. New world and new age so current factions and lore aren't recognizable at all. Each new faction has like 3 core units that will always be on the shelf. Much faster releases of stuff, mainly characters and special units of 2-5 fancy models (like Morghasts) that have their own rules right in the box, so not dependent on a static army book. Many of the these non-core models are only available for a limited time (say 6 months to a year), so they don't take up shelf space forever and ever. Many existing models are not usable in 9th.
Quote Originally Posted by Birdy #3
We can expect the next edition of Fantasy to throw everything up in the air. The whole End Times move has been to wean people onto a whole new take on the Warhammer world and it's going to start with every army being "chaosified". We can expect army play styles and appearance to change quite dramatically and there will be a whole load of new models being released early on to tie everything together. This has caused quite a stir back at GWHQ as there are a lot of people behind the scenes (some of which are very well known to us) who don't like the changes that have been made. I have also been told that the models due to be released are some of the best to date!
Add to that (and by "Birdy Prime" I mean my best source so far):
Quote Originally Posted by Birdy Prime
'9th' [or] whatever is next for fantasy [...] coming 2015 in the summer. The new faction [plus] future releases after this point for five 'existing' factions (which plus this would make six) […] but I think there will be [...] more.
As you can see, it will be drastic. It seems like those „Spanish rumours“ might have had some more flesh on them than I thought: I am by now sorry for my sometimes nasty words about them. And despite my remorse about ever mentioning it, I think my statement about a „ragestorm of epic proportions“ could have been correct after all.
This whole thing will turn out to be either correct or not in less than six months. Hopefully we can get over our worst emotions until then.
P.S.: I have sat on most of this since right before Christmas, but decided I didn't want to ruin anybodies holidays. I also had high hopes for somebody relieving me from this stuff... but that hope was lost.
In addition, here is another rumor posted by Harry over on Warseer a number of months ago that appears fairly consistent with Darnok's info (spoilered to keep the post from becoming unwieldly):
Harry wrote:About six months .... but i first heard about ita good six months before I posted that.
Sometimes it is not all that cryptic .....
I tried to find some of my old posts about this. i have posted about this 6 months, 12 months and 18 months ago. But many of my recent posts have been deleted.???
In the end I had to go find some of what I had said on BOLS Forum where Big red had quoted me from here. (Thanks Red)
OK, here's one for you .....
Chaos Vs "Humans".
Quote Originally Posted by Tozudos a Dieces:
I've just read The fall of Altdorf.
OMG.
At least fluff-wise, nothing's gonna be again the same. It all will change. All.
Harry: You are not wrong there fella. That is what I have been saying.
Quote Originally Posted by Ludaman:
Awesome! Thanks Harry! I may be way off, but that sounds like the contents of a new starter Box to me.
Harry: We have been playing this game together for too many years.
Big Red: So first up, Harry called the End Times and Glottkin by name over 6 months out. So when he says something, you should take it as much more serious than garden variety rumors.
This insinuation of new boxed sets and unified "Human" factions all feeds back into Harry's earlier speculation on GW utterly shattering the game with the End Times series, to produce a very different environment and game on the other side of the series.
After months of absence, the BEST rumormonger out there returns to talk about the End Times of Warhammer Fantasy:
Harry's BACK from the wilderness!
Harry: You may remember last year I was being very vague about some 'radical changes' in a thread about 9th edition.
Back at the start of the year, in one of my first posts of the new year I said this:
I don't think they are trying to destroy it.
I suspect they will be trying their hardest to breath new life into it.
We are not seeing the "End times" for Warhammer just yet.
Did you see what I did there?
The clues are always there fellas.
So I first heard about all this last autumn?
I was told 2014 would be "Year zero" for Warhammer.
Had no idea what that meant at first but if you Google your way to the wikipedia you get this:
The term Year Zero, applied to the takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 by the Khmer Rouge, is an analogy to the Year One of the French Revolutionary Calendar. During the French Revolution, after the abolition of the French monarchy (September 20, 1792), the National Convention instituted a new calendar and declared the beginning of the Year I. The Khmer Rouge takeover of Phnom Penh was rapidly followed by a series of drastic revolutionary de-industrialization policies resulting in a death toll that vastly exceeded that of the French Reign of Terror.
The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions within a society must be completely destroyed or discarded and a new revolutionary culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All history of a nation or people before Year Zero is deemed largely irrelevant, as it will (as an ideal) be purged and replaced from the ground up.
It was made clear to me that this was what we were talking about for warhammer.
Everything that existed being completely destroyed (or discarded) and something new replacing it from scratch ... purged and replaced from the ground up.
I hinted in various posts that they would be getting rid of the existing timeline, the existing map, etc. (In an effort to soften the blow. )
I am going to get this a bit wrong because I honestly can't remember where I heard it but to confirm the three book rumour .... I did hear the "End times" were going to be spread over three books.
Nagash was the first, followed by Malekith followed by Glotkin
Good luck with that!
...You have to ask yourself .... What will remain of the world as we know it when it has been ravaged in turn by the Undead, the Dark Elves, Skaven, and Chaos?
...Whatever 9th is it will be set in the grimmest, darkest post apocalyptic Warhammer fantasy world yet.
You think I haven't had all the same thoughts being voiced on here?
I can't see them throwing out everything they have done either ... but the only way to own the IP is to loose all the generic Fantasy that other companies can copy ... normal Dwarves, Elves and sure as heck you have to get rid of the historical based human armies ... or you can go build an Empire or Bretonnian army from anyone's miniatures.
I can't see them getting rid of any armies either ... but they can not continue to support all of them so some of them have to go or some get mashed together.
I can't see them wanting to reduce the number of minis you need .... but if it costs too much to complete an army people don't even start an army ...so is it better to sell some minis for a scaled down game or no minis? Is it better to ramp up the Lords and monsters allowance and keep on selling the big kits so an army is 'more tanks and less infantry' and thus less minis and easier to paint .... or sell no minis.
Simple fact is so many people have so many armies now unless they do something drastic with the look of the armies no-one is buying enough minis. The only way to force folks to buy new stuff is if we cannot use our current stuff. Some folks may refuse to buy the new stuff on principal ..... what do they care? They were not buying the stuff anyway as they already had their army. Imagine how badly Fantasy must be selling compared to 40K if anyone even thought about knocking it on the head for even a moment .... they must be thinking .... it can't make things any worse!!! What have we got to loose??? But if they are doing this why even bother completing 8th edition? Why do all the books?
I have been around and around with this in my head ..... the only thing that makes any sense to me at the end of the day is that 8th edition is complete enough and robust enough to endure a bit longer and 9th edition will not be a complete new edition of the rules .... but an alternative background and rules with which to play post End times battles but you still need the core rules to play A bit like all the stuff in Strom of Magic was an add on to the existing rules. The core rules and books will still exist for those that want to remain stuck in the timeline but if you want to be down with the cool kids you really need to buy the new post End Times stuff.
I don't know what else I can add to this.
I don't have all the answers.
But for what its worth .... I think it will be round bases.
First said that on here more than 18 months ago .... when someone guessed very close to the mark about WFB becoming a skirmish game.
I have added in the Warhammer Fantasy rumors that pretre keeps compiled, as he posted them a few pages into the thread (also spoilered):
via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:
The setting is being completely overhauled - true.
The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true.
Faction reduction to 6 - true
As for how it interacts with the current rules.
9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.
So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).
You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.
You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."
All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.
This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.
On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.
Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.
So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.
----
This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).
It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.
Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.
The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).
Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.
More information added on from Earlybird on BOLS (possibly less-reliable rumor-monger):
RiTides wrote: Has this bit been discussed yet? From the bottom of this BOLS article, and attributed to Earlybird. Just sounds like piling on existing rumors, but still worth noting:
Lizards are gone in space.
Dwarves survivors join the empire with the ogres.
1) Chaos core : Warriors of chaos/chariot/Hounds
Demons figs will be kept as they are usable in 40k Bye bye marauders, ungors, centigors, razorgor etc
2) Elves core : spearmen/archers/cavalry on horse
No more xbows
the 3 elves will blend in one faction
dark elves monsters are gone : cold ones, hydra
3) Empire core: Hallberds/Handgun/Canon
Some dwarves survivors and ogres are included
Imperial and bretonnian knights are merged
4) Undead core : Skeletons/Ghouls/Spirit host
bye bye bone giant, scorpion sphinx, chariots and everything too much egyptian
5) Orcs and goblins core : Goblins/Orcs/Black orcs
no real change for them
6) Skaven core : Clanrats/Plague rats/Rat ogres
no real change for them too
The following is a rumor on Warseer from a Spanish website pertaining to the lore of WHFB 9th:
chochky wrote: [spoiler]I don't know if this has been mentioned on this thread already (haven't kept up with all 20+ pages), but do you guys remember the spanish rumors thread posted on Warseer early last fall?
They were the first to mention a release of Nagash / End Times campaign (May 29th), but did so in a context saying that this End Times campaign would be the lead to a closure of "Warhammer" (presumably WFB, not 40K), followed by a subsequent new skirmish game (presumably fantasy-ish-themed) in 2015
and
Originally Posted by cazzz669
So, just got off the horn with a contact at GW who apparently has just come out of a briefing regarding the future of WHF in May 2015 after the End of Times WHF will become a skirmish game centered around surviving warbands after the "armegeddon" of the fantasy world as a result of the End of Times.
Chaos decimate the Empire
Nagash and co decimate Brettonia
Ulthuan sinks
there will be less army books than currently ( no idea if this means imalgimation armies )
appreciate I do not post very often so will doubtless recieve a whole load of flame for this post BUT given i literally just got told it, thought some people here would appreciate me sharing..
Personally I hope to god this is all incorrect
That second quote in particular mentions Ulthuan sinking, which happened in the Khaine book. Bear in mind these rumors were posted before the Khaine book was released. The May release date also roughly lines up with Darnok's rumored release date of April (i.e. late spring not summer). All of this, in combination, kind of make these rumors a bit more believable to me... and have made me a lot more concerned.
Thoughts?
January 11th, 2015
Another compilation of WHFB rumors debate between Harry and another Warseer poster Autumn Leaves:
Warhams-77 wrote: [spoiler]Harry posted another post compilation about what's going on with WFB
Worth to read
Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different
Yay ... found it.
Here is everything that Autumn Leaves and I said about this on a thread over 12 months ago.
Originally Posted by Autumn leaves
It's downright sad.
I love Warhammer and I've loved it for years, probably since before some of the younger members here were born. Sadly WFB has not moved with the times and there are so many other options out there now many players have drifted away to them and stayed away.
I had high hopes for my teenage son to follow in my war hammer footsteps but he is not remotely interested in it. God knows I've tried but he is only interested in 40K and not very much either. I can see his his interest waning and all those 40K box sets I bought for him over the years in a vain effort to drag him into the hobby, and then showed him painstakingly how to put together and paint, they are going to be on eBay shortly. The only systems I have managed to get him interested in are the odd game of Space Hulk (yay) and Mantics 'Dwarf Kings Hold'. The idea being if I can keep him interested in DKH then i can turn him onto Mordheim…. but I digress.
A big part of what has taken so many thousands of war hammer players away from war hammer in the last 5 years is three fold and the reasons have been well explained by other members in this thread.
1) Warhammer fluff is generic with slip shod time lines compared to the much better fluff for 40K.
2)The price point has become too high. Big units cost a small fortune and armies look good and play well with big units. The fiscal outlay is prohibitive at bot the entrant level and for the veteran.
3) More modern games have come out with sleeker design features that interest older players looking for something 'different'. Competition has grown up.
Can GW win ground back for the ailing core game?
Of course they can but not by keeping it the same. Many many changes are required to improve its attractiveness to younger market and with the exceedingly precarious performance, that has seen a wide variety of WFB blisters and box sets being deleted by GW from the Indie retailers trade sales selection very scarily shows how little demand there is for the WFB product in the current climate.
When sales drop this low, and it has been happening for a long time, the axe is never far away.
Thats a reality.
Now I'm picking it will be the axe of change not the axe of final destruction that sees WFB take on a new look appealing to the youngsters as a Skirmishing game like 40K and LOtR. Smaller units,much smaller units. Many pundits see the same change approaching as it fits in with the GW sales format. WFB must start to increase it's profitability.
Change is coming.
To keep things the same means that WFB will go the way of the specialist games. Withering profitability = the end.
Can GW fix WFB under it's current format after years of decline in sales?
Possibly but the single biggest problem they have is to get profitability up they have to make it more appealing to the kids at the entrant level.
That would mean changing the format to bring it into line with the other two systems. Especially 40k.
Making it affordable.
1200 points is a skirmish game.
You need 2000 points to have a decent sized game.
If you really like war hammer skirmish then wait for 2015 and thats exactly what you will get as they repackage WFB for the entrant level market.
I have worked for the company.
I still know people that work for the company at Lenton and other parts of the world. I know some popular individuals who used to work for the company. From time to time all of those folks have been useful in offering insights as to what is coming up soon and to how the Kirby Hive mind thinks.
Common sense will tell us that 40K is not going to undergo any changes significant or otherwise, because it's happily making a great deal of money for the PLC.
WFB on the other hand has been suffering on a global level for a long time now and it needs re-booting to return to profitability.
Why would the PLC not take the easiest road to achieving that, by bringing WFB in to mimic the format that is working spectacularly well for 40K beginners?
Warhammer skirmish to get kids and adults in to play the game.
It makes sense and it lowers the entry cost making it instantly more attractive to a wide social strata of customers.
It won't hurt to finish releasing the army books to flesh out 8th edition and it's a fair call to the collectors of those armies without a book for a loooong time. A nod to the customer base. Nice touch.
I really hope the repackaging of war hammer skirmish works because the entire war gamer hobby benefits from the recruiting done by the GW bricks and mortar stores at a beginner entry level.
Perhaps a swan song…
I see Warhammer fantasy Skirmish starter set as a 'stepping stone' into the bigger war hammer game, perfect for entry level, and then options for growth of the beginners army into something more rewarding in time to come.
I can also see scenario aspects of the skirmish game that would lend itself in a slightly campaign way (each game affects the next) toward the Mordheim feel.
This is not a bad thing people, it could be a great new dawning for a system that drastically needs to be overhauled to catch up to the modern thinking that has moved on over the years.
I'm excited about it.
Perhaps introducing a skirmish style entrant level element in 2015 will give GW design a real chance to have the critical time to reinvent the wheel on WFB.
This last line I found interesting. He almost suggests 9th edition will be a temporary fix why they decide what to do with the Mass fantasy battle game???
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
Yeah they did fail with Warhammer skirmish in the past but to be fair that was pitched at an adult market more than an entrant level market.
I'm sure they have done their homework and they will make the new box set more attractive both price wise and game design wise than the previous war hammer skirmish.
Also, warhammer skirmish back in the day was quite an attractive game, but we had a fully supported Mordheim to fall back on. The cross over on other in-house systems was an issue for the older gamers.
No cross over now and an opportunity to get interest kindled in starting into fantasy with a skirmish box set.
I really don't think it's going to be a big problem for the older vets.
A new painting challenge.
A new gaming challenge.
Something that is guaranteed to be finished in a single club night. Maybe even two games O_o
WFB needs to be more accessible to the entrant level. Going to skirmish was the obvious choice, and the right choice.
But the round bases might be another issue..
Here is the first time anyone mentioned Round bases in fantasy.... as soon as he said this I knew he was not guessing ...as this was something I had already heard and you simply would never guess this for fantasy
Originally Posted by Malagor
Autumn Leaves, just because you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again won't stop it from being nonsense.
Originally Posted by Harry
What if, eventually, he is shown to be the only one talking sense?
Originally Posted by Harry
As I have said repeatedly ... I do not know where the dust settled on all of this. Maybe the starter set is a skirmish game as Mr Leaves suggests ... maybe it's not?
Maybe Warhammer 9th is JUST a skirmish game ... as Mr. Leaves suggests ... Maybe it's not? Maybe they found a way of making it scale up successfully from a few figures in a skirmish encounter to an ambush on the vanguard to a full blown battle between two armies, to an apocalyptic 10,000 point battle of DOOOOOOOM!
That's what I have always done with every rules set (every edition) ... some have needed more bending than others.
It is how we did it in olden times.
I have huge armies of most fantasy armies but have always enjoyed playing small skirmish level games ... often as a prelude to and influencing future bigger games. I use smaller games as a way of focussing on individual units and writing their back story so they become more than just "a unit of 25 spearmen" and become something more ... "Bronzino and the Brown jackets, The veterans of skulldoom pass" etc ... you get the point.
Warhammer's origins were Role playing games ... I have always found it hard to shake that off ... thankfully.
I have been playing more 3rd edition than 8th edition recently ... but I still enjoy 8th edition ... however, the two games have very little to do with each other .... so it's not that big a deal to me if 9th edition is different again.
Just another way to enjoy Warhammer.
I am not saying Yes or No ... I am saying "I don't know".
All I know is they started into a 'ground up' re-write a couple of years ago.
Nothing was sacred. Not the timeline. Not the stat line. They started with a fresh page.
Anything could have changed ... Everything could have changed.
I have heard ... a few things since ... but not enough to say with any certainty what 9th edition will be.
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
I said Warhammer Fantasy won't be getting a new edition until 2015 and I also said it's going to be warhammer skirmish game in a similar format to the 40K starter sets and I also said that WFB is only contributing 8% of the overall revenue of GW's annual income in the last 12 months and thats a primary reason why the bean counters in the PLC are demanding some serious change to the former flagship core game.
Yes they are going to be 'rejuvenating' the Warhammer fantasy brand so it's more entrant level friendly for the kids.
I have made my predictions and I totally stand by them.
Watch and wait to see if they come true.
The company is undergoing some serious changes, the WD has been revamped already.
Originally Posted by Harry
Maybe they think they have cracked it with 8th edition (for the time being ... or once every army has a nice shiny new book) and the Skirmish thing for Fantasy (That Autumn leaves suggests) is more like Storm of Magic ... except designed to enable smaller games rather than bigger games ... just adding another dimension to the existing core game... Rather than replacing it. Just a thought.
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
Warhammer skirmish will be the gateway for the entrant level customers to be introduced to milieu.
Most of us won't buy it for anything other than the ruleset. I played LotR as a skirmish game but my miniatures were all on square bases and rectangular for the horses, so I could use them in war hammer and other systems.
You can easily buy movement trays for round bases to be ranked up in from the net.
The 8% is not a prediction or a rumour, it's a stone cold fact and the number may very sadly be a little high by the 'summer' of 2014 where GW numbers annually take a nosedive.
Gentlemen, wfb is sinking and not slowly, why… WHY do you think there is so much activity going on in the background around the White Dwarf revamp etc
Parents are not buying into a game for their kids where they are staring down the barrel of hundreds and hundreds of pounds just to build 'one army' on GW's current pricing strategy.
40K or LotR offer a cost ceiling in terms of box sets and whats required to crank out a little game for the entrant level customer.
LotR/The Hobbit is running hot at the box office and it's a self contained skirmish game.
40K does not make demands on the customer to purchase a wide variety of Big units. A couple of squads and a dreadnought or a tank and you're done, chances are most parents are thinking those toys will be in bits at the bottom of the toy box in a couple of months anyway. You know how kids are…
If the child shows a genuine interest then the incremental attachment for either LotR and in particular 40K are user friendly. Another squad and/or another tank/dreadnought/APC and you're all set.
They both play well for the entrant level customers and particularly 40K has enjoyed ongoing success and buoyancy.
Try playing war hammer with a unit of 25 models on each side and a general on a mount for each. With a war machine each.
It's beyond dull.
It's ridiculously expensive for what you get.
The actual customers worldwide who are buying these toys for their kids are not stupid. They can see the amount of money required to play war hammer effectively as it was meant to be played and as it is portrayed in the literature within the stores, i.e. with multiple units on each side and then they look at the boxes, how many figures do you get for how much?
Mums are thinking about the weekly food shop bill and that pair of Jimmy Choo's at the end of the month that hubby doesn't know is on the credit card yet… "Ummm, I think we'll take the space game thank you."
Of course GW are not foolish, the board members know Fantasy has been sick as a pig for a while now and it needs more than a revamp at 8%, it needs a full overhaul. Bar a few tweaks over the years it's essentially the same game designed in the very early 90's for 4th edition.
It's clearly not working and all the indicators are there to tell us it's not going to work until it is changed.
Warhammer skirmish?
Brilliant.
It gives the fantasy aspect of GW a chance to compete on a level playing field with 40K in a well priced self contained box set. Father and son can play it in a couple of hours at the dining room table and then son can teach it to his little buddies on the weekend. The budget can stretch to augmenting the model count to keep the boys interested. Job done.
In the meantime GW can flesh out all the army books for 8th edition and win the hearts and minds of elements of the disgruntled older members of the fraternity, and in the meantime, get to work feverishly on WFB 10th edition with an ALL NEW ruleset. Modernised and maximised for excellent quick gameplay. Reasonable levels of items and magic. Skirmishers that don't reinvent the wheel. Cannons that don't come with laser sighting, GPS and night vision et al the list goes on and on…
It will be the game that brings back the grumpy old grognards and joins them with the bubbly fan bois and we can all be happy little peas in a pod once again. 2015 is looking very positive.
Originally Posted by Harry
If Autumn Leaves is correct about the Skirmish thing ...This is the only thing that makes sense to me.
The only reason we are expecting a new edition of Warhammer fantasy Battle is because that is what we have had every few years.
BUT I remember having a conversation with Jervis and Gav .... so this is gong back a few years ... where they stated that they wanted to get Warhammer to the point that it did not need updating/re-writing and they wanted to get all the army books completed in such a way that they were robust enough to survive changes to the rules so they did not need to keep re-writing them. The reason for doing this was to allow them to look at more interesting things to develop aspects of Warhammer they did not have time to do. We discussed the obvious things like Skirmish, Siege, but also fighting on boats, in tunnels/underground, exploring new areas of the map, etc.
Alright this was a few editions and many years ago but what if? What if they feel they have reached that point with 8th. Where a new edition isn't going to change very much. Where every army has a book. What if they decide NOT to do a new edition but stick with Warhammer 8th as it is ... consider this the finished product for a while. .... What would they explore next?
We already have "Storm of Magic" for 'Big magic, Big Monster' games.
Maybe they would look next at Skirmish? (Autumn Leaves seems convinced).
So no new BRB ... as rumoured. But a new starter set ... as rumoured.
Not needing full army books but where all the armies could be combined in less books ... as rumoured. Would certainly be the way to present warband options.
Mmmm.
I was still left with some of the other stuff I had heard about the timeline advancing and multiple books. (Will it be two, three or four books?)
A recent conversation prompted a new line of thought ....
and started to make a different kind of sense to me.
What if this was nothing to to with the next edition .... but a "what would they explore next?"
What if they decided to explore different area of the world or different periods of history? Source books for playing warhammer in different times and places.
Same game ... same rules set just changing the setting a bit ... bit like the Lustria stuff.
An excuse to explore some new special rules, introduce some new characters, new monsters, exploring some undiscovered corner of the world or some undescribed period of history ... currently little more than a dot on the map or a story in an army book. A chance to undertake some new modelling projects, sculpt some new minis.
One book might be 500 years ahead, one 500 years the past (or exploring some key point in recent history). One might be based in an area of the world which has not been detailed yet. (Like the Lustrian stuff).
This started to make some sort of sense to me ... but it was late at night.
What if? What if you a games Developer for Warhammer fantasy? What if you were told you didn't need to write an new edition or rewrite an army book? Where would you go next? What aspect of Warhammer would you like to explore?
My guesswork here almost describing 'bubbles'
Originally Posted by Harry
I don't think they are trying to destroy it.
I suspect they will be trying their hardest to breath new life into it.
We are not seeing the end times for Warhammer just yet.
Darnok wrote:
... Many of the these non-core models are only available for a limited time (say 6 months to a year), so they don't take up shelf space forever and ever. Many existing models are not usable in 9th ...
If this is even remotely true
"Here you are long term fans, your armies are no longer usable. Hahahahahaha"
I have to say, the business model that I'm picturing sounds like true evil genius. Built in obsolescence of the models. They are good for 6 months and a new supplement rules them no longer valid. Instead you have to buy a new kit that's replaced them.
That seems rather drastic. If GW thinks that WHFB isn't worth supporting as is, why not just drop it altogether? Why selectively stop supporting or manufacturing kits that they can still produce in favor of spending money developing new kits and replacing WHFB with a new fantasy game? Why would they drop a faction like Ogre Kingdoms for example if they still have usable molds to make the kits? That just strikes me as counter productive.
Maybe this will finally inspire the Slann and their lizard kin to finally develop the concept of clothes and armor. That would absolutely make my day.
I'd be curious to see how this all plays out if true. Dumping just about every single army out there to sell new (and obviously more expensive) models? Sounds like a plan!
I wonder if we'd see smaller quantities of figures on the table as well. If there's less, you can sell them for more too. And make them incredibly large as well to continue to push the price up.
So it basically combines the sales method of MTG with the price points of GW stuff.
I expect the only people who could afford such a thing would be too busy enjoying their classic car collection or sailing their luxury yacht to have time for WFB.
Why not just go with a rebranding then? Will it even be fantasy any more?
With talk of things going more steampunk with Boneripper's robotic legs, the Warmahordes competition, it all makes me wonder if we'll still see any of the more traditional high fantasy tropes.
although it's not impossible GW would give something like this a try as the alternative to dumping Fantasy totally
(if perhaps the sales are even worse than we realise and the numbers have hit the old specialist games territory where GW thinks them not worth the effort)
I wondered if End Times was leading to something like this. From GW's perspective it makes sense - Fantasy doesn't sell nearly as well. So instead of being "roughly" equal - trim the hell out of the number of armies, etc available for it.
So you'll have 6 well-supported armies instead of the 12 or so available now some of which almost never receive updates.
And it also frees GW up from making a lot of minis - for instance, all the crap that needs done in the Beastman range gets dropped as they get folded into the Chaos book - just keeping the Gors/Minotaurs/other newer plastic kits. Or instead of doing a badly needed remake of the awful High Elf core plastics, now all elves use the much nicer Dark Elf core, and High Elf units are relegated to Special slots.
From a fan perspective its, of course, sad, sad, sad. But GW sees all the shelf space they free up for more Space Marines.
I suspect my army, Ogres, will be disbanded. With the core infantry kits being allowed to be taken as merc units in all armies. Or folded into Green Skins.
What do you think we'll be left with?
Chaos - Woc, Beastmen, Demons
"Man" - Empire, Brets, Dwarves
Greenskins - O&G, Ogres?
Skaven - always popular, one of GW's "unique" race
Elves - already seeing signs of this one
Undead - ditto
Hmm.. seems a bit of a silly rumour but with the End Times stuff going on it feels an awful lot like they're trying to minimize the number of armies available. ie All Elfkind working together, Nagash running the Undead show, Empire and Bretonnians combining forces. Dwarfs might stay as an independent force (possibly- assuming the Skaven don't Squat them and kill them all). Chaos in general could get joined into one force too. Yup that sounds close to 6 factions but I'll take that with the same amount of salt HBMC is throwing at it for now.
**Edit: Ooops forgot Lizardmen, Ogres and O&G. God knows what they'll do with them
If this actually happens, I am going to have to find a suitably smug phrase for my sig. Also I'd better not see one single person who was all over the End Times and "advancing the story" moaning about this new setup; you asked for it.
It sounds fairly plausible to me.
It was a big step from a GW history perspective to get the ET going. They really have taken Warhammer and rejigged/reworked/re whatever you like to call it.
Given that the concensus is that WHFB has never been as big as 40k and in more recent years sales have been declining further, it seems logical they they have decided from a purely commercial standpoint to wipe the slate clean and try a complete revamp.
I dont write it off at all.
Positives: Massively excited that GW are actually trying to do something new, for the first time in years.
Negatives: That WHFB is being smothered to do it. If true, it's going to really hurt the vets, and I can imagine a massive upswell in the number of people playing KoW as a result. One would surely hope that the WFB range and games would continue to be supported and sold?
Actually they were talking about this on BoW the other day - the reason that 40k has been absolutely steamrollered this year with new releases is to get all of the codexes done, and then free up the design and sculpting staff to work on a new 'massive project'.
The thing is that AFAIK the background and factions of WHFB are not the reasons of its bad sales. Even if they introduce WHFB space marines, I don't think they would sell well. The main problem is the barrier cost. If you want to start an army, you have to mortage your house. In 40k, starting a faction is a lot less expensive, since you need way less models.
I understand that Fantasy sells like ass and should have been axed years ago, honestly.
But this will just replace one failing product line with another.
It will incur the same wrath from the vets as dropping Fantasy entirely would have, without the benefits on saving production capacity for something better.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Maybe this will finally inspire the Slann and their lizard kin to finally develop the concept of clothes and armor. That would absolutely make my day.
Dude, have you been to the rainforest/jungle? It's hot, and wet, and hot. Even the people who live there barely wear clothes why would giant frogs and lizards need any? You do have a point about the armor though, nobody likes to get stabbed, including lizards.
I can see something akin to this plan being put into effect because it has the right combination of a lack of awareness of the the fan base and greed. Hey, what if we just discontinue a bunch of stuff, release a new totally different edition and make everybody start over? All the current players would buy all new armies sales would skyrocket!
Even if this rumor is mostly false I still think I'm much more likely to be proxying my WHFB armies in KoW 2.0 than buying anymore fantasy books from GW.
Ironically, while this sounds terrible, backstory wise, for fantasy; it'd be perfect for advancing 40k. Imagine if you will:
- The Emperor Dies/Disappears
- The Imperium is fractured into millions of petty empires and fiefdoms - Age of Strife 2: Strife Harder
- The line between villains and heroes is blurred
- Loyalist marines are treated with disdain as they steal off all the finest youth
- Traitor marines are treated as honored guests after they liberate a human planet from Xenos enslavers
- Orks Speed Freaks and Human Gangers race each other across Helsreach hive in a competition to see who rules
- The Adeptus Mechanicus is fractured and some see new technology as the saviour while others feel the opposite is true
Well if this goes down as reported, the only company that will have a steady Fantasy range and a stable game to go with it will be Mantic!
This could bode well for Ronnie's gang of cutthroats and ne'er do wells :-)
Also Mantic's prices are better overall than GW, and KoW's gameplay doesn't require the same interaction with the models, so you can make better use of them on their bases than what GW's rules require.
It doesn't sound too bad, I can think of a worse direction to take it... such as introducing round bases! (Which I don't believe considering all of the large kits now coming with square/rectangular jobbies)
Definitely not expanding with any more Fantasy armies now though (it's my favourite war game!) so on the bright side, this rumour has sworn me off of purchasing any fantasy stuff until the summer, no Skaven or Undead for me!
edit: Looks like my Infinity, Flames of War and 40K models will get some much needed attention then, instead
if this were true It could fit in with some of GW' more recent actions.
New factions could see a more protect-able naming scheme implemented. Like Astra Militarum et al.
Fewer models and limited time releases slot into GW being a company .for collectors of miniatures. Limited time releases prevent 3rd party manufacturers gaining traction.
Digitally release rules and limited edition rule-books.
Less Inventory higher prices.
Not that I like any of it, but given GW's position and recent history I wouldn't bet against 'Fantasie Steam Battel' V1™ being released
I've been expecting something along these lines for a while, but I figured with as unwilling to change as GW are, it would not happen until the company financials were in much more dire straits.
I wonder about if this is intended to change the scale of WFB as well. As much as GW would love to sell us the 100s of models required to make proper blocks of fantasy infantry at their inflated prices, that's one of the things holding new players back. I can well imagine some soulless accountant at GWHQ pressuring staff to make it into a skirmish game like 40K.
It's a terrible decision that I think will ruin WFB, but lets be honest- I've thought WFB was ruined for the last several years already. The franchise has been circling the drain since the last Beastmen reboot.
Scrub wrote: It doesn't sound too bad, I can think of a worse direction to take it... such as introducing round bases! (Which I don't believe considering all of the large kits now coming with square/rectangular jobbies)
Definitely not expanding with any more Fantasy armies now though (it's my favourite war game!) so on the bright side, this rumour has sworn me off of purchasing any fantasy stuff until the summer, no Skaven or Undead for me!
Not to be Johnny Raincloud, but GW has already shown that they give not a feth when it comes to whimsically changing base sizes or styles without a moment's notice.
Well, this sounds absolutely terrible. The best part of Fantasy was the setting, and now they're completely ruining it. These 'fantasy space marines' are possibly the worst idea ever. One of the strong points of FB setting, was that the Chaos really felt menacing, as it opposed only my mere humans with steel, gunpowder and guts.
Now, I can understand the need to combine some armies, Chaos should never been separated in several different armies, same with the undead. But all rest of this nonsense... Sigmar save us!
1. My mates at Mantic are going to make a killing. Kings of War is already an incredibly system, and if WHFB as we know it goes away, that system will just look that much better, AND will be an inviting home for all those with now obsolete armies.
2. It would probably be the single greatest act of ill-will GW will have done to its fans since "Squats"
3. Begrudgingly, i'd admit to being interested in trying the game once the gak-storm blew over.
I am in two minds about this, should the rumours be true (and to be fair this is coming from Darnok, arguably the premier rumour revealer of recent times). On the one hand fantasy does need something to increase the player base and popularity...but gutting it completely does seem a bit drastic.
Then again if GW are going in a completely new direction it is an exciting break from the past, but one that will probably lose more customers than gain them. The other issue is if the old model range is being dumped, and that is a hell of a lot of miniatures, the lead time in being fully aware of it will prevent people from stocking up on the models/armies that they want.
Seeing Warmahordes overtaking Fantasy sales could elicit this response from them.
Over course simply releasing a game bigger than Mordheim but smaller than WHFB that uses the same models as a gateway to Fantasy would be too logical a response.
From a neutralish perspective I find it quite exciting tbh.
That dosent mean I dont feel for oldschool whfb players but coming from 2nd 40k to 3rd we all survived.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I am in two minds about this, should the rumours be true (and to be fair this is coming from Darnok, arguably the premier rumour revealer of recent times).
You must have a different definition of 'Premier'.
Darnok (from Warseer) - Total rumors: (49 TRUE) / (17 FALSE) / (9 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
What is that... 65% correct?
versus say Lords of Wargaming:
Lords of Wargaming - Total rumors: (21 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (1 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
~96%
Ratius wrote: From a neutralish perspective I find it quite exciting tbh.
That dosent mean I dont feel for oldschool whfb players but coming from 2nd 40k to 3rd we all survived.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Smaller sample size though innit, and I did say arguably. Darnok is a single source, is/are Lords of Wargaming just one person?
Darnok is hardly a 'single source' since he claims the rumors come from all sorts of 'birdies'. The bulk of Darnok's trues are also from 2012, not recent.
Crimson wrote: Well, this sounds absolutely terrible. The best part of Fantasy was the setting, and now they're completely ruining it. These 'fantasy space marines' are possibly the worst idea ever. One of the strong points of FB setting, was that the Chaos really felt menacing, as it opposed only my mere humans with steel, gunpowder and guts.
Now, I can understand the need to combine some armies, Chaos should never been separated in several different armies, same with the undead. But all rest of this nonsense... Sigmar save us!
I agree that the fantasy space marines as described sound awful. That said, if they released new sculpts of Reiksguard knights on foot that might actually entice me to buy a WHFB kit again.
Also looking at Darnok's record.. a good chuck of the false are from the pancake edition which a lot of folks got caught out on.. and four codex release dates a year in advance.. which may well be GW changing the schedule themselves.
His recent record has been very accurate, especially regarding Warhammer.
I was thinking- if fantasy as we know it disappears to be replaced by brand new armies with all new units(that naturally invalidate all of the current models), that in effect would also put an end to a lot of the me-too type companies that like to ride on GW's coattails in terms of producing proxy models.
I'm reminded of when D&D introduced Dark Sun. Brave new world and all that...
If this happens, you better believe existing fans will keep 8th edition alive...turning it into a 'Living Edition' if you will, like several of the older Specialist games. I'm not interested in a gutting of the Warhammer Fantasy game or setting...I really hope this isn't true, and that if it is true, I hope the model range will still be available in some capacity...I mean once the molds are manufactured, its costs pennies to fill them with styrene...ugh...
Fango wrote: If this happens, you better believe existing fans will keep 8th edition alive...turning it into a 'Living Edition' if you will, like several of the older Specialist games. I'm not interested in a gutting of the Warhammer Fantasy game or setting...I really hope this isn't true, and that if it is true, I hope the model range will still be available in some capacity...I mean once the molds are manufactured, its costs pennies to fill them with styrene...ugh...
That's all well and good for people with gaming groups and stuff though, I have enough trouble finding games for games that are actually supported!
My personal theory was that the end times was meant to spike whfb sales while setting up a new world where smaller model counts would be needed....ie.....because massive armies had wiped each other out.
Smaller model count and revamped rules = lower entry barrier and new interest in the system?
This is a pretty bold rumor though. Im leaning toward false but I must admit it has me thinking.
Sounds a bit mad. I can see GW scrapping Fantasy as it's too generic and sales appear to be weaker than for 40K. Due to the huge costs of Fantasy, there are lots of people playing it with Mantic or Perry miniatures which GW also dislike.
I can certainly see Fantasy being scrapped and a new game introduced on circular bases which is much closer to 40k in style. They would also reimagine all the armies so that they become more distinct/unique and less generic, also expect everything being renamed, all to reinforce the all important IP.
It could just be rubbish though, it sounds a very drastic move and GW are quite risk averse.
With all the financial trouble GW has lately and what made them do what they did with 40k and 7th edition, it is not unlikely they will drastically change WFB
Howard A Treesong wrote: Sounds a bit mad. I can see GW scrapping Fantasy as it's too generic and sales appear to be weaker than for 40K. Due to the huge costs of Fantasy, there are lots of people playing it with Mantic or Perry miniatures which GW also dislike.
I can certainly see Fantasy being scrapped and a new game introduced on circular bases which is much closer to 40k in style. They would also reimagine all the armies so that they become more distinct/unique and less generic, also expect everything being renamed, all to reinforce the all important IP.
It could just be rubbish though, it sounds a very drastic move and GW are quite risk averse.
I seem to recall Rackham doing something similar with their Confrontation/Ragnarok game...basically ending the games as their fan's knew it, changing to round bases, then releasing small units of pre-painted figs (I know GW are not doing this bit, but they may be dumping a large part of their range according to this rumor).
I seem to recall Rackham going bankrupt and closing their doors shortly after that bad decision.... I know GW wont die if they kill off Fantasy as we know it, but I certainly don't think it will do them any good.
So this rumour is basically that GW are canning fantasy and releasing a totally different game that has almost nothing in common with WFB.
I'll stick to playing WFB with what I've got already.
Why don't they just slow down released on WFB and launch a new game, see how that goes. Canning one of their game systems, when they only have 3 is crazy stupid. What if the new game flops, then what. With the LOTR pretty much guaranteed to disappear next year they are going to end up with nothing but 40K, and 40K 7th edition doesn't seem to have done them any favours.
I don't won't to believe this, but then I can't underestimate the Kirby factor.
It will incur the same wrath from the vets as dropping Fantasy entirely would have, without the benefits on saving production capacity for something better.
The vets already have their armies, and doesnt buy much new, in my experience. In any GW store i visited, people are playing 40k or even hobbit/lotr, because the fantasy boys have been going at it in their homes, having established terrain and everything there since they have been doing the hobby for such a long time.
A lot of the stuff in there is just a rehash of Harry's rumours from back in September with just some extra detail inserted. As much as I disliked those rumours he does have a stellar accuracy rating apart from some timeline issues.
I however am hopeful that they don't completely nuke the fantasy world.
I dont really play warmachine, but I cant help but think that what these rumors points at is comewhat closer to WM.
Units which come with rules on cards, can be implemented in "factions" (recalling the mercenary faction of wm) and much fewer armies, and perhaps fewer units.
I think it is a good sign that I'm more worried about a random person not posting for eight months than GW scrapping a whole wargames range. I hope he's well.
Is Harry confirming the 'new wfb human faction' in the warseer topic?
Harry
Quote Originally Posted by Poncho160 View Post
Months and months and months ago, early last year some time, Harry (I think ) wrote that their would be a new faction for fantasy that they would be the equivalent of 40ks space marines.
I hate it when that happens.
Quote Originally Posted by Regulator View Post
The mankind will be one army together. Meaning the Empire and the Bretonians become the "survivors". Good luck with that!
So is it safe to assume, If this turns out to be true, that this is a trial run for 40k. And then 2016 will be the reset of 40k, and the advancement of the timeline.?
Lots of people will be very angry, rightly so, bu with GW's Prices I don't see it surviving. If they did this and also did a massive pricedrop? yeah I could see people accepting it. But current prices and having to rebuy entire armies, and buy limited dlc for armies is asinine.
edit:
Trial run could've been the special imperial guard limited release?
It wasn't, RiTides confirmed in another thread just recently that there's no reason from Dakka's end that he couldn't.
People just disappear. Zweischnied is another who's disappeared, not only from here but also his own blog and Twitter (all on the same day too.)
Statistically I guess we may lose one person every now and then to something tragic, but, personally I think it's more likely just life taking over, or, and this happens fairly often, they've just reinvented themselves with a new username and account to divorce themselves from any associations they may have accumulated.
OT
I'm not actually that phased by this, indeed, done well it may actually bring me into the game, but if the constant assumption that WHFB has been dying for years, why not do something radical to shake it up?
Too early and too few details to panic/get excited just yet.
Triszin wrote: So is it safe to assume, If this turns out to be true, that this is a trial run for 40k. And then 2016 will be the reset of 40k, and the advancement of the timeline.?
Lots of people will be very angry, rightly so, bu with GW's Prices I don't see it surviving. If they did this and also did a massive pricedrop? yeah I could see people accepting it. But current prices and having to rebuy entire armies, and buy limited dlc for armies is asinine.
edit:
Trial run could've been the special imperial guard limited release?
I think 40k is safe. From what I gather, this is all because Fantasy isn't doing very well.
Harry wrote:About six months .... but i first heard about ita good six months before I posted that.
Sometimes it is not all that cryptic .....
I tried to find some of my old posts about this. i have posted about this 6 months, 12 months and 18 months ago. But many of my recent posts have been deleted.???
In the end I had to go find some of what I had said on BOLS Forum where Big red had quoted me from here. (Thanks Red)
OK, here's one for you .....
Chaos Vs "Humans".
Quote Originally Posted by Tozudos a Dieces:
I've just read The fall of Altdorf.
OMG.
At least fluff-wise, nothing's gonna be again the same. It all will change. All.
Harry: You are not wrong there fella. That is what I have been saying.
Quote Originally Posted by Ludaman:
Awesome! Thanks Harry! I may be way off, but that sounds like the contents of a new starter Box to me.
Harry: We have been playing this game together for too many years.
Big Red: So first up, Harry called the End Times and Glottkin by name over 6 months out. So when he says something, you should take it as much more serious than garden variety rumors.
This insinuation of new boxed sets and unified "Human" factions all feeds back into Harry's earlier speculation on GW utterly shattering the game with the End Times series, to produce a very different environment and game on the other side of the series.
After months of absence, the BEST rumormonger out there returns to talk about the End Times of Warhammer Fantasy:
Harry's BACK from the wilderness!
Harry: You may remember last year I was being very vague about some 'radical changes' in a thread about 9th edition.
Back at the start of the year, in one of my first posts of the new year I said this:
I don't think they are trying to destroy it.
I suspect they will be trying their hardest to breath new life into it.
We are not seeing the "End times" for Warhammer just yet.
Did you see what I did there?
The clues are always there fellas.
So I first heard about all this last autumn?
I was told 2014 would be "Year zero" for Warhammer.
Had no idea what that meant at first but if you Google your way to the wikipedia you get this:
The term Year Zero, applied to the takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 by the Khmer Rouge, is an analogy to the Year One of the French Revolutionary Calendar. During the French Revolution, after the abolition of the French monarchy (September 20, 1792), the National Convention instituted a new calendar and declared the beginning of the Year I. The Khmer Rouge takeover of Phnom Penh was rapidly followed by a series of drastic revolutionary de-industrialization policies resulting in a death toll that vastly exceeded that of the French Reign of Terror.
The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions within a society must be completely destroyed or discarded and a new revolutionary culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All history of a nation or people before Year Zero is deemed largely irrelevant, as it will (as an ideal) be purged and replaced from the ground up.
It was made clear to me that this was what we were talking about for warhammer.
Everything that existed being completely destroyed (or discarded) and something new replacing it from scratch ... purged and replaced from the ground up.
I hinted in various posts that they would be getting rid of the existing timeline, the existing map, etc. (In an effort to soften the blow. )
I am going to get this a bit wrong because I honestly can't remember where I heard it but to confirm the three book rumour .... I did hear the "End times" were going to be spread over three books.
Nagash was the first, followed by Malekith followed by Glotkin
Good luck with that!
...You have to ask yourself .... What will remain of the world as we know it when it has been ravaged in turn by the Undead, the Dark Elves, Skaven, and Chaos?
...Whatever 9th is it will be set in the grimmest, darkest post apocalyptic Warhammer fantasy world yet.
You think I haven't had all the same thoughts being voiced on here?
I can't see them throwing out everything they have done either ... but the only way to own the IP is to loose all the generic Fantasy that other companies can copy ... normal Dwarves, Elves and sure as heck you have to get rid of the historical based human armies ... or you can go build an Empire or Bretonnian army from anyone's miniatures.
I can't see them getting rid of any armies either ... but they can not continue to support all of them so some of them have to go or some get mashed together.
I can't see them wanting to reduce the number of minis you need .... but if it costs too much to complete an army people don't even start an army ...so is it better to sell some minis for a scaled down game or no minis? Is it better to ramp up the Lords and monsters allowance and keep on selling the big kits so an army is 'more tanks and less infantry' and thus less minis and easier to paint .... or sell no minis.
Simple fact is so many people have so many armies now unless they do something drastic with the look of the armies no-one is buying enough minis. The only way to force folks to buy new stuff is if we cannot use our current stuff. Some folks may refuse to buy the new stuff on principal ..... what do they care? They were not buying the stuff anyway as they already had their army. Imagine how badly Fantasy must be selling compared to 40K if anyone even thought about knocking it on the head for even a moment .... they must be thinking .... it can't make things any worse!!! What have we got to loose??? But if they are doing this why even bother completing 8th edition? Why do all the books?
I have been around and around with this in my head ..... the only thing that makes any sense to me at the end of the day is that 8th edition is complete enough and robust enough to endure a bit longer and 9th edition will not be a complete new edition of the rules .... but an alternative background and rules with which to play post End times battles but you still need the core rules to play A bit like all the stuff in Strom of Magic was an add on to the existing rules. The core rules and books will still exist for those that want to remain stuck in the timeline but if you want to be down with the cool kids you really need to buy the new post End Times stuff.
I don't know what else I can add to this.
I don't have all the answers.
But for what its worth .... I think it will be round bases.
First said that on here more than 18 months ago .... when someone guessed very close to the mark about WFB becoming a skirmish game.
I'm not actually that phased by this, indeed, done well it may actually bring me into the game, but if the constant assumption that WHFB has been dying for years, why not do something radical to shake it up?
It vaguely reminds me of WotC and D&D 4th Edition's Forgotten Realms setting. As I recall, they advanced the timeline, had a big war among the gods, had the "missing twin planet" appear and merge with the original, all so they could shoehorn in all the shiny new 4th Edition stuff and make the setting shiny and new to match the modern fantasy style.
Of course, GW might want to learn a lesson from 4th Edition D&D with this supposed new WHFB: don't just ditch the old edition entirely or some other company might come along and pick up all those players who preferred it over the "new hotness." Because, as Paizo did with Pathfinder, so could Mantic do with Kings of War.
So I know I have never been involved with any rumors or anything before but the concerning rumblings have left be speechless. I called a buddy in the system to ask and this is what I was told. I quote, “As you know, having played as long as you have, we have dropped armies and models before” also “Change happens, we have already changed the game 7 times, so it would not be new for us to change it again”. Please let it be known that I am the biggest friend and fan of fantasy out there so I am taking this with a grain of salt, but I thought people should know.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm not actually that phased by this, indeed, done well it may actually bring me into the game, but if the constant assumption that WHFB has been dying for years, why not do something radical to shake it up?
Too early and too few details to panic/get excited just yet.
I've got no problems with shaking up the game on principle. But it's doing it well that I'm worried about.
I was looking forward to 9th being an excuse to dig my 3500pts of unbuilt Vampire Counts out of their box and get into Fantasy. A return to GW. But then.,..
Much faster releases of stuff, mainly characters and special units of 2-5 fancy models (like Morghasts) that have their own rules right in the box, so not dependent on a static army book. Many of the these non-core models are only available for a limited time (say 6 months to a year), so they don't take up shelf space forever and ever. Many existing models are not usable in 9th.
While I can proxy, it really irks me that part of the shakeup is simply invalidating the majority of what people have. That's just, plain and simply, dickish.
It just feels very cold to me. I know they're a business and need to make money, but the nature of the hobby is that people invest a lot more than just money into their armies, and just dropping any support of the hard work people have put into their Miniatures like that just shows the lack of respect they actually have of us, the people who essentially pay their wages. I agree with Loki, it's very dickish.
I don't buy it. There are shakeups between editions, which are to be expected. But making a game unrecognizable, invalidating every existing army, making the bulk of units obselete...yeah that's not going to happen.
If the ET books are 9th compatible then every unit in all mentioned armybooks remain valid. If not then what the hell will we use until the new books come out?
I suspect that these rumours are being drastically misinterpreted, and that 9th will bring changes but nothing so earth-shaking as is being suggested.
Agreed. Same reason I thumbed my nose at the 4th gen video game consoles. You want to invalidate my entire video game library arbitrarily? And ask me to re-buy everything I still enjoy playing? No thanks. I'd rather play Warhammer...oh wait...
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: I don't buy it. There are shakeups between editions, which are to be expected. But making a game unrecognizable, invalidating every existing army, making the bulk of units obselete...yeah that's not going to happen.
I don't want to beleive it. But when Harry comes out of the wilds to support the rumours, as well as Darnock...
It breaks my heart to read this as I love WFB in it's current state and instead of doing something reasonable like introducing a skirmish game to help people get into the game, making a few minor changes to 8th edition rules, and for the heck of it introducing a siege version of the game, why not just dump everything and restart.
Say what you want about Ward but the guy gave us the Elf books (which I love BoTWD aside of course) and 8th edition. I feel like were he allowed to design 9th edition, we would probably get something us "vets" would be comfortable using and not just staying with an old edition which is what looks like is gonna happen.
The lack of a skirmish game was always mind bogggling to me. If they were afraid people would stick to that size, why not make it "closed" as a board game, like space crusade or hero quest?
I loved the crap out of mordheim and it got me into warhammer fb.
I would be genuinely surprised if the WHFB changes completely invalidated any of the plastic models that have been released in, say, the last five years. That's all a sunken cost, and a metal-die plastic kit is good for decades. I doubt GW went to the trouble of creating new Wood Elf plastics six months ago just to kill them in less than a year, you know?
There's no good business reason to kill them. Milking a product line for 10+ years is a totally normal business model in the miniatures biz (see Wargames Foundry; Perry Miniatures).
But I could see a much larger chunk of kits moving to direct sales only. While there's no need to kill all these kits, there's also no need to stock them in 100+ stores. Only the shiny new stuff and a set of core units would be stocked in stores. But the old stuff that's lying around - why wouldn't they sell that through Mail Order if people were willing to pay for it?
I would also bet that - even though the fluff, unit names, and army composition might change dramatically - you will be able to find an army list entry to fit most (not all) things in your collection. That entry might be boring and generic ("Elven Light Cavalry" instead of Dark Riders / Sisters of the Thorn). But I bet you will be able to find a hole to fit most of your pegs.
The main reason I could see this happening, is it would tie into a total knee jerk reaction by GW over the Chapterhouse nonsense. Although I'd be really shocked if they did actually can the current lines, I'm really struggling with that idea.
The Harry rumours have been at the back of my mind for a long time though.. I do have to wonder if everything we know is about to be tossed on its head.
However as you say hubcap could they really cut loose all those kits.. unless they made a new legends section and left them there?
Six months will pass soon enough I suppose.
I have a question, if, worst comes to worst, Fantasy goes the way of the dodo and it's suddenly a weird bubbly skirmish and I don't want to play, are there any games similar to Fantasy as is now? Most games these days seem to be skirmish.
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triplegrim wrote: Well, obviously some of the kits they have, will carry over into 9th, they are not going to make completely new lines alltogether at the same time.
That's literally what the rumour says though, that they're gonna start the models from scratch.
Maybe what he got a glimpse of was a specialist game or something, if even any of this is true. I'm applying liberal amounts of NaCl to this.
However, on the ridiculously remote possibility this is true, my friends and I will just stick to 8th Ed. We have had a ton of fun with it, and i'm sure i'll be able to pick up yet another army on the cheap from my LGS and bartertown.
ImAGeek wrote: I have a question, if, worst comes to worst, Fantasy goes the way of the dodo and it's suddenly a weird bubbly skirmish and I don't want to play, are there any games similar to Fantasy as is now? Most games these days seem to be skirmish.
Hm. Didnt warhammer start as a skirmish game with less models though?
Kings of War is the obvious answer to your question. They make a point out of having large armies and large battles. I think you buy infantry by the score when building armylist.
Grey Templar wrote: If this happens I will not be picking up 9th. I'll continue with 8th, its mostly ok and I think quitting while you're ahead is smart.
I will not tolerate my beloved Ogres getting squatted. New fluff, I could get behind that, but not cutting up the armies.
I have two shelves full of Ogres. If GW squats them, I walk and never look back and I spend $8-10k per year on my "hobby".
Edit:
I was going to say that this sounds too much like someone trolling the community until Harry stepped in....damn..
Kings of War is the obvious answer to your question. They make a point out of having large armies and large battles. I think you buy infantry by the score when building armylist.
Kings of War is the obvious answer to your question. They make a point out of having large armies and large battles. I think you buy infantry by the score when building armylist.
But the Kings of War rules suck.
Grey Templar wrote:Indeed. KoW are just alternate models for Warhammer Fantasy. I'll use GW or my own rules before KoW.
I like the Kings of war rules myself. It reminds me of 2nd/3rd edition fantasy, and is more beer and pretzels game. It needs some work, but is much better and quicker to play than GW games. YOMV.
Silly thing is that this sort of the VOR: The Maelstrom fractured warhammer world sounds like a great setting for a WHFB skirmish game.
I don't play FB so I'm not invested in this at all, but it makes me a bit sad if true. Citadel Dwarves were my first models and I pawed through Warhammer Armies an ungodly number of times.
Well that's... Um... Well it certainly makes me feel good about backing the latest LoW Kickstater.
(Its the superior game imo by a mile, there is just so much less clutter and micro managing or unessecary rolling. If I want to hit someone I look at my stat line and go instead if counting models in base contacts, seeing who can hit the unit and who has to hit the character on the corner, comparing to my opponents statline and consulting the chart to determine what I need, determining inti order, ect.)
Anyway this all makes perfect sense to me. We know GW make the vast majority of their sales on any given kit in the first month. We know they have been doing more and more limited edition plastics. They have already completely trashed the Fantasy map in preparation for something and, well, honestly I think that the odds of the people they have left being able to make 9th good are low. Something like this that alienates most their fanbase sounds like something they'd consider a good idea.
Could it be possible that WHF might move to a dual game system, where units are given an 'End Times' stat card and this new skirmish game stat card in the same box? Seen in this light, The End Times would become like the popular Horus Heresy setting, where the final outcomes are known but you can relive the battles just before the big finally occurred.
I could see this happening, as it would provide people with the smaller buy-in for the game, whilst retaining the bigger aspect that players could work towards.
Finally joining Dakka² merely for this: I so hope you are right.
Hey, Darnok! Good to see you over here, this information definitely is better supported by the person who wrote it rather than someone (such as myself) who just passed it around.
agnosto wrote: I have two shelves full of Ogres. If GW squats them, I walk and never look back and I spend $8-10k per year on my "hobby".
Edit:
I was going to say that this sounds too much like someone trolling the community until Harry stepped in....damn..
Yeah, the authors of these rumors made me feel like this was something that was too important to dismiss offhand.
While I think these changes are quite crazy, I can see GW having a laundry list of reasons for this change:
1. WHFB has fallen outside of the top 5 selling tabletop wargames, at least according to the ICv2. When you think about the theoretical gaps in sales and profits between even these top 5 games, it can paint a pretty bleak picture about the state of WHFB. GW seems to have recognized this with the advent of the "End Times" material
2. GW has shown a truly ludicrous level of aversion to anything they can't claim absolute ownership of. Go back to the CHS court case and you can see GW's associates making the claim that everything their studio develops comes only from their imagination and has no outside inspiration. Stereotypical dwarves, elves, and Arthurian knights are not something even GW can pretend they invented, and I think those in the ivory tower are looking to purge any remnants of things that aren't more unique to them (even if vast swathes of their models are still very obvious in their inspiration). Look at the Tomb King-ification of the Necrons or the renaming of "Imperial Guard" to "Astra Militarum" and I think there begins to be shown a picture of a company who will do anything to claim copyright of their products to prevent any third party mischief
3. GW knows Space Marines sell well. Heck, Space Marines make more profit than the whole WHFB range does combined. GW wants desperately to emulate this with WHFB and the best way to do is to create a duplicate analog for the kids to get excited about. Karl Franz's transformation in the "End Times" lore seems to be pointing to this change
4. Despite these new books coming out for the "End Times," not many new models have been produced. Heck, Khaine's book didn't have any models whatsoever. I think GW is trying to stop producing WHFB models in plans to gear up for this upcoming new game.
5. I really don't know what 9th edition of WHFB could do that would revitalize the game. It's been through 8 renditions, what could another edition possibly offer other than some good/some bad rules and a new $100 price tag
6. If WHFB players are upset about this new game, so what? GW got their money already, and it's not like they were doing enough to support WHFB as it was. I'm sure in GW's mind, it's their customers' faults that this happened in the first place!
There are a couple of other reasons I can think of that support this, but to me it just makes sense, especially given GW's MO these last few seasons.
1. Vets don't buy things. They buy enough to keep current in the hobby. Sometimes they don't even do that.
2. The prices make it difficult for new players to buy things.
3. Fantasy is bloated. There are too many armies with too many codes.
4. At what point does maintaining the status quo with WHFB become an albatross? Lots of anecdotal evidence that it just does not sell.
So, product bloat, high prices, and flagging sales? Change All the Things. Change the scale of battle: no more massed blocks of troops. Change the factions: compress and homogenize, add flavor later in the form of single special models/units and DLC. Change the fluff: break the high fantasy mold, change the faction names, protect the IP.
Ugh, I don't like how this sounds at all. Applying lots of salt, but I still don't like how it sounds. Fantasy may have a stupid high entry price, but even as much as I love my Dark Eldar, Fantasy is way more fun and relaxing to me than 40k will ever be. I guess I'm in the camp of "if this happens, I'll stick with 8th edition".
1. Vets don't buy things. They buy enough to keep current in the hobby. Sometimes they don't even do that.
2. The prices make it difficult for new players to buy things.
3. Fantasy is bloated. There are too many armies with too many codes.
4. At what point does maintaining the status quo with WHFB become an albatross? Lots of anecdotal evidence that it just does not sell.
So, product bloat, high prices, and flagging sales? Change All the Things. Change the scale of battle: no more massed blocks of troops. Change the factions: compress and homogenize, add flavor later in the form of single special models/units and DLC. Change the fluff: break the high fantasy mold, change the faction names, protect the IP.
It all makes perfect sense.
QFT
I actually like all these rumored changes and would happily play a skirmish style warhammer fantasy game set in a post chaos Apocalypse.
Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.
If your model is to sell a new ruleset, and a few new models, for the game and each army every 5 or so years, veteran players are your most stable source of income.
If a player owns only a single army, they'll be buying at a minimum a new rulebook and a new "codex" every 5ish years. Thats an almost guaranteed $150. You don't need to sell the hobby to this person, he's already hooked. You need to keep him coming back, and he will come back.
Then there are new model releases to consider. If each army has one new unit, one new big centerpiece kit, and a new character come out with each new army book, thats another steady chunk of change. $100 for a new unit. $50-75 for a big kit. And $25 for a character.
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Veteran players are also highly likely to own multiple armies. If every player has one of his armies being updated every other year or so, he's throwing a fair chunk of money at you in perpetuity. Thats how you make money. You don't make money with single purchases made by little kids who will forget about their space marines in a month.
Privateer Press has the best system. They can add new models individually and veterans are the ones who provide the steady income. GW could have that same system even if they changed the rules as long as they put effort into the rules so they were competitive and kept veterans buying small amounts of new stuff as the meta shifts.
That does seem to be the system they are trying to implement with 40k, although it's too early to tell. The Tyranid 2nd wave releases through Leviathan hint at that very model.
The fact is that WHFB is a very intimidating game for newcomers. So you've decided on The Empire? Congratulations! Now paint 40 halberdiers....for starters!
That would make the wave release model pretty hard to implement.
The only thing I'm having a hard time with is he merging of the human races to form Super Knight.
But I would buy the snot out of an awesome crazy fantasy foot knight kit so, there's that.
Grey Templar wrote: Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.
If your model is to sell a new ruleset, and a few new models, for the game and each army every 5 or so years, veteran players are your most stable source of income.
I'm one of those veteran players, so don't take what I say as meaning that we should be ignored. But, I don't buy much. My friends don't buy much. The guys who run out and buy the codex and every new boxed set GW puts out during their 3-5 year army update are not typical. They're the guy GW wants, but there's not enough of those types of customers to support Fantasy, not by a longshot.
If a player owns only a single army, they'll be buying at a minimum a new rulebook and a new "codex" every 5ish years. Thats an almost guaranteed $150. You don't need to sell the hobby to this person, he's already hooked. You need to keep him coming back, and he will come back.
*snip*
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Vets will buy a new kit if there's a good reason. Taking a character I already have in metal and packaging him in a $30 plastic clampack is not a good reason. Making a new core plastic kit is nice, but my two 20-strong block of Dwarf Warriors would cost me $100 to replace (and the old ones work the same as the new ones). Making an ugly kit for a completely new codex/army book entry just makes me want to convert something I already own using counts-as. GW rarely hits that sweet spot of creating something new, beautiful, and effective in game.
Veteran players are also highly likely to own multiple armies. If every player has one of his armies being updated every other year or so, he's throwing a fair chunk of money at you in perpetuity. Thats how you make money. You don't make money with single purchases made by little kids who will forget about their space marines in a month.
GW used to do both. Now they do neither. Crushing the current Fantasy paradigm could possibly be a recipe for making both Vets and little kids dig deep in their pockets.
I've long been a proponent of an "Angels and Paladins" army done right - the Bant army from Magic: the Gathering's Alara setting is my go-to example. I very much doubt GW is planning on doing an "Angels and Paladins" army done right.
The rumour sounds horrible for any of you still playing the game, and it still doesn't say anything about fixing the things that keep people out of the game!
Armyman: it could just as easily be a recipe for making both walk away.
It's exactly the problem GW has had for a while now; all they can see is the raw margins. They don't account for word of mouth, they don't account for network effect(related but not the same), they can't bring themselves to see the aftermarket as a symbiotic partner rather than a leech - they live in total isolation, still believing this is the early 90's when their customers were completely ignorant of the few alternatives that existed, but they don't and we aren't.
Warhammer Fantasy doesn't sell because it costs too much to collect a full army from scratch, because there's no real entry-level product that feeds into it any more, and because it's already dropped below the point where it's so ubiquitous that it's the "default" option(network effect). The rational thing to do would be to solve those issues by investing in the product(new skirmish entry game/revive Mordheim), make the pricepoint of the models more attractive by adding value(there's no reason that, for eg, Greatswords couldn't be a 20-man box for the same price - the moulds will have paid for themselves long ago, so doubling the sprues in the box would only increase GW's costs by the cost of the materials and the extra time to produce them), and actively trying to rebuild the community.
Throwing away pretty much the only things still keeping people playing the game(large battles, faction aesthetics, background material) and hoping that an entirely new product with a new business model, new rules, new factions etc etc will, despite setup costs, at the very least break even with existing Fantasy sales is...well, I don't think there's a word for how reckless that is.
1. Vets don't buy things. They buy enough to keep current in the hobby. Sometimes they don't even do that.
2. The prices make it difficult for new players to buy things.
3. Fantasy is bloated. There are too many armies with too many codes.
4. At what point does maintaining the status quo with WHFB become an albatross? Lots of anecdotal evidence that it just does not sell.
So, product bloat, high prices, and flagging sales? Change All the Things. Change the scale of battle: no more massed blocks of troops. Change the factions: compress and homogenize, add flavor later in the form of single special models/units and DLC. Change the fluff: break the high fantasy mold, change the faction names, protect the IP.
It all makes perfect sense.
Especially when you consider gw's view that their customers are primarily collectors, whose hobby is making purchases from games workshop. On paper it sounds so perfect.
What the game needs are serious game designers. To me, all this will do is create a "different" badly written and balanced game for people to throw money at. If they want to change things up they should look at the strategy that 6th/7th edition had (IE it wasn't just about big blocks of dudes).. Granted the magic system is ALWAYS a problem but they could also fix that if they were competent at their jobs.
I could see myself playing this though, provided the following:
Tight uncluttered rules.
They don't invalidate all your old models. If I still can use let's say half of the following. I could live with it if I can't use my old TK skeletons and horsemen. But if my sphinxes and Tomb Guards are no longer useable?
No fething rebasing.
The background isn't too stupid.
No Warhammer: The Gathering collectible nonsense.
WHFB could really do with a serious rules rewrite and done right it could probably be good for the game. This being GW though, I fear the worst. And finally; killing the Old World? That hurts man, that really hurts.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Sounds a bit mad. I can see GW scrapping Fantasy as it's too generic and sales appear to be weaker than for 40K. Due to the huge costs of Fantasy, there are lots of people playing it with Mantic or Perry miniatures which GW also dislike.
I can certainly see Fantasy being scrapped and a new game introduced on circular bases which is much closer to 40k in style. They would also reimagine all the armies so that they become more distinct/unique and less generic, also expect everything being renamed, all to reinforce the all important IP.
It could just be rubbish though, it sounds a very drastic move and GW are quite risk averse.
Mad is what GW does though. All of the changes sound like the sort of things they would do; get rid of generic elements from something they feel is more protectible (like superhuman good guys instead of just humans).
That said, if this turns out to be a smallish skirmish game based on the LOTR rules I can see me getting in on it. I've got no interest in getting into a bloated mass battle game like fantasy, but a 30-mini a side force would be ideal. Especially since I'll be able to get those mini's elsewhere
The term throwing the baby away with the bath water come to mind.
GW have moved the timeline on slightly with the EoT stuff but I just don't see such a conservative company doing any drastic changes to a game that is still a comparatively big seller.
They are never going to drop complete lines/reduce factions. They are a miniature company, maintaining wood elves or bretonians really isn't any hardship and have proven in the past that they are quite happy to leave existing forces without revision for extended periods of time.
The most I think we can expect is the revised fluff (world in flames) and paring back of the rules a little to stream line but not much as people seem to have shown they want to by card packs for magic etc.
1. Vets don't buy things. They buy enough to keep current in the hobby. Sometimes they don't even do that.
2. The prices make it difficult for new players to buy things.
3. Fantasy is bloated. There are too many armies with too many codes.
4. At what point does maintaining the status quo with WHFB become an albatross? Lots of anecdotal evidence that it just does not sell.
I would suggest that #1 is caused by #2.
I would also suggest that it's not actually a problem that veterans don't buy much*. As long as they play YOUR game and not someone else's, it provides more incentive to potential new players to start YOUR game. In my town Warhammer has died out and most of the players have sold their armies and bought WarmaHordes instead. If a new guy wants to start miniature gaming in this town, which game do you think he's going to choose? As long as there was a group of people playing FB here, there's a potential for growth. Now there is very little of that.
It's the cost of an army that's the main problem and the number of active players in the local community that's the main advantage. To me it seems they are at best flipping this on it's head - smaller armies that are cheaper to start up, but no existing player base.
That's why it's unlikely to be an improvement.
If they had been more clever, they would have introduced new armies while not invalidating old ones. They wouldn't have to keep making the models for them indefinitely, but they could easily keep the digital army books updated and compatible with the new rules.
Who exactly wants to start a game where their miniature collection might suddenly become invalidated without warning? Surely that would be a HUGE deterrent to potential new gamers.
* heck, the financial reports suggests that NOBODY buys much.
Kirasu wrote: What the game needs are serious game designers. To me, all this will do is create a "different" badly written and balanced game for people to throw money at. If they want to change things up they should look at the strategy that 6th/7th edition had (IE it wasn't just about big blocks of dudes).. Granted the magic system is ALWAYS a problem but they could also fix that if they were competent at their jobs.
KoW is where I'll go when I want an actual game.
This.
I've sold every army that I ever had for 40k and WHFB except for my beloved Dark Elves that were shelved while I secretly waited for GW to realise that they killed Fantasy with the travesty that is 8th edition and would return to the more tactical oriented editions of days gone by... My hope as slowly diminished as I watched all the failures that have been made since with all of this End of Times nonsense and now, if these rumours are true, I better hurry up and sell my Dark Elves before GW scraps up the entire line!
Phantom - You are probably better keeping your elves and waiting for one of the myriad whfb rulsets which will be released by fans.
The good news here is that if they junk a lot of their existing setting it makes it a little bit harder for them to go after said fans for doing something with it.
The problem with those rumours is that they do not touch on the "future of WHFB". What they describe is an entirely new product, packaged under the old brand.
What a truly GWesque idea.
It's not just running the risk of alienating existing customers. The real problem is that it will cost them a fortune to market the new thing as something that people that aren't currently invested in WFB might want to play. And they'll be doing it under a brand that has, over the years, gathered a reputation for being expensive and poorly maintained. It's like trying to sell natural fibre house insulation instead of asbestos, but still calling it asbestos.
The game might be better, the miniatures of higher quality, but in the short term the new product will incur nothing but costs on GW.
This should be much harder to believe than it is. I can't say I'd have predicted it (scaling back WHFB, sure) but I won't be shocked if it all turns out to be true. I will be if it's not a Finecast-style disaster. Finehammer Fantasy.
If they do a reboot to the point where it's effectively a new game/model range they'll lose the big advantages they have over the competition. They'll be the ones trying to catch up, and I get the impression that even if GW's creative team had fantastic ideas they wouldn't be allowed to implement them. Meanwhile this move would create more resentment and mistrust than anything GW's done before. If they're willing to pull this on an entire game's armies I'm not gonna count on anything in 40K having a stable future (other than vanilla Marines).
And this being GW they'd slap on a price hike just to add insult to injury.
I am tentatively interesteed here. I've always preferred Skirmish sets to blocks of troops in a Fantasy setting, which is why I've stuck with LotR for so long and only dabbled in WFB. Lower model count also makes it easier to get into and is far more interesting to collect as you don't need three dozen of the same guy.
On the subject of WFB itself going away, of course it won't. I assume by the time we get to the final End Times books everything will have been dealt with and condensed into 5-6 Army Lists, and thus remain useable. If, in fact, this new 'edition' is a new game entirely, then technically nothing will supercede that and you can just keep playing 8th:ET. Even if this new game is marketed as '9th edition', I am 100% certain that every gaming group in the world that plays WFB in its current form will continue to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
Paradigm wrote: I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
Paradigm wrote: I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
Snap. Have an exalt!
Because I have enough trouble finding games for systems that are supported, let alone rulesets that aren't.
Paradigm wrote: Even if this new game is marketed as '9th edition', I am 100% certain that every gaming group in the world that plays WFB in its current form will continue to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
I doubt it. It's not like the current version is marketed as "8th Edition" either, nor was the previous marketed as "7th".
I use to play 3rd edition, then I moved to 5th and bought all the army books. That's where I stopped with Fantasy. If you come around my place you'll be playing 5th...
Paradigm wrote: Even if this new game is marketed as '9th edition', I am 100% certain that every gaming group in the world that plays WFB in its current form will continue to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
I doubt it. It's not like the current version is marketed as "8th Edition" either, nor was the previous marketed as "7th".
So you're saying that if this new book comes out, and it's to all intents and purposes a different game, you'll still stop playing Warhammer Fantasy with its pretty-much-complete line of models and books? And all the minis you've bought that you're not going to be able to use in the new system are just going in the bin?
If this is an entirely different rule system and model line, I can't see how it invailidates any WFB collection anyone has already got, especially with the ET stuff streamlining all that as well.
If this leads to them having a fantasy skirmish game, then I'm all for it.
If they expect us to buy hundreds of their new models at their current prices for a new mass battles game... then forget it. I'll use my current armies in KoW if I want to do that.
I'll be a little sad about losing the classic WHFB setting, but if the rumored new game/models are good, than I'll get over it quickly.
Paradigm wrote: I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
Snap. Have an exalt!
Because I have enough trouble finding games for systems that are supported, let alone rulesets that aren't.
What more support does it need? You have a currently-functioning ruleset, a very extensive model line and most current players will already have the models and rules to play. All that stuff isn't going to turn to dust just because GW announce a new and similar game.
By the way, I'm not being trying to be harsh here, and I genuinely feel for you if you can't get a game in practice and this new system does stop you playing, I'm just pointing out that WFB won't die just because you don't have to keep buying new books and models for it.
So you're saying that if this new book comes out, and it's to all intents and purposes a different game, you'll still stop playing Warhammer Fantasy with its pretty-much-complete line of models and books? And all the minis you've bought that you're not going to be able to use in the new system are just going in the bin?
If this is an entirely different rule system and model line, I can't see how it invailidates any WFB collection anyone has already got, especially with the ET stuff streamlining all that as well.
No.
If I were playing Fantasy (I don't), I probably would continue.
Just saying that the numbering of editions, both Fantasy and 40K, is a fan-made thing to begin with. Hell, there's still a guy at my club adamant that the latest 40K is "Edition 6.5", not "7th". Technically, he's not wrong (or right).
Whatever the game will be, it'll probably just be called "Warhammer". The one thing that seems to stand out is that GW plans to "transfer" the brand to the new game, whatever it might be. Whether the community will see that as a "new edition" or a "separate game" will be as open to personal preference as seeing the latest 40K as "6.5." or "7th" (though 7th seems to be the majority choice these days).
Paradigm wrote: I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
Snap. Have an exalt!
Because I have enough trouble finding games for systems that are supported, let alone rulesets that aren't.
Exactly.
I'll be keeping an open mind on this. I did with 7th ed 40k too, and decided that for now it isn't to my liking. I've got an army to update for both if the time comes, but too many other awesome games to play (infinity, dropzone commander, hordes) if it isn't a great ruleset.
BTW, please don't mistake what I've posted for what I believe will happen or even what I want to happen. I like the world of WHFB. Nothing wrong with giving it a shake, a la The End Times, but I would be sad to see any of it go. I also don't have much confidence that GW can pull it all off. I think this is more desperation than inspiration: very little positive comes from a place that's negative.
What I don't really understand about this move....
The whole 'bubble reality' thing really only comes into its own if you keep the existing model line and army books. That is what gives us a reason for Tomb Kings to fight Wood Elves (not that we needed one...) If you do away with the existing armies, why go through the 'bubble reality' trouble at all? You could just as easily say 'the old world is dead. Long live the NEW old world!' and have your fantasy space marines duking it out in that setting while all the other armies get squatted.
This whole thing just seems like it wasn't thought out. I just hope it turns out to not be true.
Will some of the bubbles contain space marines? Because that would be a good way to unbound your WHFB armies right into 40k! Ooh I'm totally gonna do a Blood Angels Vampire Counts army. Sweet.
1. Vets don't buy things. They buy enough to keep current in the hobby. Sometimes they don't even do that.
It all makes perfect sense.
Agree with plausibility. Not sure #1 is so cut and dry. Your statement is probably true now but was not previously. It's a viscous circle that GW started and keeps powering.
I am a Vet and know lots of Vets...we fall into three groups: buy very little, buy to stay current, and the hobbyist who buys a new army (or two) a year. The last group is akin to the top tier airline customers...when I was in a road warrior job I purchased (flew) enough seats every year to fill two MD-88s. The airline knew it and treated me well. GW ignores or has no visibility to the last two groups because we do not shop in their channels (we use discounters and LFGs). So their conclusion is all Vets are all group 1.
GW's problem with Vets is that they cannot control us because we are an informed consumer. And GW does not know how to sell to an informed consumer, so they ignore us and focus on the new entrant.
The whole 'bubble reality' thing really only comes into its own if you keep the existing model line and army books. That is what gives us a reason for Tomb Kings to fight Wood Elves (not that we needed one...) If you do away with the existing armies, why go through the 'bubble reality' trouble at all? You could just as easily say 'the old world is dead. Long live the NEW old world!' and have your fantasy space marines duking it out in that setting while all the other armies get squatted.
This whole thing just seems like it wasn't thought out. I just hope it turns out to not be true.
If all this is true, there won't be the current existing model line and army structure. All undead armies, chaos armies, elf armies, and human armies get mashed together into single army books for their race. The End Times books have already started this process.
Paradigm wrote: I am tentatively interesteed here. I've always preferred Skirmish sets to blocks of troops in a Fantasy setting, which is why I've stuck with LotR for so long and only dabbled in WFB. Lower model count also makes it easier to get into and is far more interesting to collect as you don't need three dozen of the same guy.
On the subject of WFB itself going away, of course it won't. I assume by the time we get to the final End Times books everything will have been dealt with and condensed into 5-6 Army Lists, and thus remain useable. If, in fact, this new 'edition' is a new game entirely, then technically nothing will supercede that and you can just keep playing 8th:ET. Even if this new game is marketed as '9th edition', I am 100% certain that every gaming group in the world that plays WFB in its current form will continue to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to stop playing rules, models or anything just because GW decided to bring out a new version.
That's perhaps because you're not understanding what people's objections actually are. Whether one person or their group keeps playing Fantasy doesn't change the fact that new players and returning players will see it as a "dead" game, meaning that the normal attrition groups suffer over time as people move away, try other games, or stop playing regularly due to other commitments will not be compensated for with new players coming in at anywhere close to the same frequency as if the game were being actively supported.
You only have to look at the specialist games; they're some of the best products GW have ever put out, and they continue to have a dedicated - fanatical, even - following. But they have nowhere near the same amounts of players as even the days when they were just left up on the GW site and mostly ignored. So sure, if GW does end up gutting Warhammer Fantasy and then tries to flog us this new monstrosity clothed in its skin, older editions will still be played, but within a very short space of time they won't be played often enough for people to count on being able to just show up at a club/store and get a game, and that trend is only going to get worse over time.
Vets don't buy things? Seriously? I'm a 20 year veteran and I easily spent 100-300€ per MONTH on Wargaming.
GW gets 2,5€ per months max (a paint pot... maybe if I really like a particular colour).
Veterans are older (30+y), have in many cases quite some income (single, no children, good job etc (of course not all of them)) and are willing to spend A LOT of their income on their hobby.
Veterans are probably the most important income source!
Well, some people matter more to us than others. I really liked Kroothawk and his posts and he was a Dakka staple. It's tough no longer seeing an oldtimer around...I don't know much about him and not even his real name in order to get a background check going and I feel that it might not be okay to do one without it being clear whether he intentionally left Dakka or not.
It's just that whenever an oldtimer leaves, he leaves a gap in the community that cannot be easily filled. Its...saddening. I sincerely hope that he's doing fine and healthy and just left the community because he lost interest in wargaming.
Hm... It may have one beneficial side to it:
When they reboot WHFB, they may introduce a completely new, well-designed core game with good core rules.
Since it's GW however, I have little faith in that. It probably *will* be different from today's game, but well-designed?
Also, invalidating all the armies? Nice way to completely and utterly screw over all of your player base at once. They do that, they can lay fantasy to rest and not bother marking the grave.
The more I think about this, the more it sounds exactly like 4th Edition D&D: make an all new version of the game, adopting modern design elements for it, then blow up your most popular setting (Forgotten Realms) for it to squeeze in all the shiny new stuff that wasn't there before.
And then have another company come along (Paizo) that basically reprints your previous rules you threw away (Pathfinder) and rake in the cash from all the vets you tossed aside.
So, if GW is really going to throw away the "old" Warhammer, then Mantic is now set to swoop in and take care of all the vets like Paizo did.
If that's true... holy crap, and not the good way. I think if they really do that, it's going to be the final death knell for WHFB, because that sounds pretty stupid. Ironically about the only thing that sounds cool is the "WHFB Space Marines" concept, and has been mentioned that's already called the Protectorate of Menoth in Warmachine.
But yeah, if they do this then I see a lot of vets going to Kings of War instead as an alternative. Maybe I can finally get people to give it a shot then
Well I have been enjoying the end times stuff, the description of the bubble world's sounds terrible.
Also only stocking core units and making you buy special and rare units from the gw website is what is KILLING fantasy right now. Takeing that model to its exterme is going to finally kill this game.
Pretty much what I expected since their "End Times" line.
Those are rumors, yes, we have to wait and see....but for sure, no buying Warhammer Battle stuff until I see the thing in their White Dwarf.
And if the rumors are true...well, it will be the death of Battle. Like D&D4. Like Confrontation. Like everything made by really stupid people who think their "new sight" is "awesome".
The sadness is that all WB fans will be the ones really screwed by all of this. But then...if they are still there even with the End Times, yeah...they kinda asked for it.
Did you try it? There is less clutter, and lower prices at least.
Less clutter, but its just so bland.
Yes, I've tried it and Grey Templar hits it on the nail. I'm also turned off by the whole damage counters rather than removing models way of approaching units.
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, I've tried it and Grey Templar hits it on the nail. I'm also turned off by the whole damage counters rather than removing models way of approaching units.
Whatever floats your boat I guess. Also, I should point out that unless you've been living under a rock these past few months you would know KoW v2 rules will be out this August (ish)
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, I've tried it and Grey Templar hits it on the nail. I'm also turned off by the whole damage counters rather than removing models way of approaching units.
Whatever floats your boat I guess. Also, I should point out that unless you've been living under a rock these past few months you would know KoW v2 rules will be out this August (ish)
Not so much living under a rock as intentionally not paying attention to Mantic's release schedule cause I have zero want for their products. No reason to keep up with what's coming when if I have no intention of playing or purchasing it.
Tannhauser42 wrote: The more I think about this, the more it sounds exactly like 4th Edition D&D: make an all new version of the game, adopting modern design elements for it, then blow up your most popular setting (Forgotten Realms) for it to squeeze in all the shiny new stuff that wasn't there before.
And then have another company come along (Paizo) that basically reprints your previous rules you threw away (Pathfinder) and rake in the cash from all the vets you tossed aside.
So, if GW is really going to throw away the "old" Warhammer, then Mantic is now set to swoop in and take care of all the vets like Paizo did.
If Mantic make their v2 rules to resemble 6th edition Fantasy they would have an instant best seller in their hands.
But I'm with the people that say that their current edition is way too bland and generic...
I think a reboot is a good idea, but screwing over all of the current players is the best way to make sure the game fails completely.
IMO they should keep WFB as is, release a new book treating it as a new game that's fully compatible with the current range of models and army books, just a different way to play. Release new models and army books that work for both games, and over the course of a couple years see what more folks are gravitating toward
I am all for moving time on and writing the next chapter.
But not this....not like this.
Sorry but I can't resist; seriously, what were people expecting? This is the era of GW that gave us Bloody Blood Missiles with Blood Sauce, Warhammer Visions, Space Marine Nesting Centurions, Santa Grimnar and his two wolf open sleigh, finally took the Specialist Games out behind GWHQ and Old Yeller'd them, and threw millions of quid down the drain pursuing the almost entirely spurious Chapterhouse lawsuit. You were thinking they would suddenly volte-face and manage to somehow advance the timeline for WHF without turning it into a slapstick routine?
This is why a setting is superior to a story for this kind of thing.
I am all for moving time on and writing the next chapter.
But not this....not like this.
Sorry but I can't resist; seriously, what were people expecting? This is the era of GW that gave us Bloody Blood Missiles with Blood Sauce, Warhammer Visions, Space Marine Nesting Centurions, Santa Grimnar and his two wolf open sleigh, finally took the Specialist Games out behind GWHQ and Old Yeller'd them, and threw millions of quid down the drain pursuing the almost entirely spurious Chapterhouse lawsuit. You were thinking they would suddenly volte-face and manage to somehow advance the timeline for WHF without turning it into a slapstick routine?
This is why a setting is superior to a story for this kind of thing.
I am all for moving time on and writing the next chapter.
But not this....not like this.
Sorry but I can't resist; seriously, what were people expecting? This is the era of GW that gave us Bloody Blood Missiles with Blood Sauce, Warhammer Visions, Space Marine Nesting Centurions, Santa Grimnar and his two wolf open sleigh, finally took the Specialist Games out behind GWHQ and Old Yeller'd them, and threw millions of quid down the drain pursuing the almost entirely spurious Chapterhouse lawsuit. You were thinking they would suddenly volte-face and manage to somehow advance the timeline for WHF without turning it into a slapstick routine?
This is why a setting is superior to a story for this kind of thing.
Yes well. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.
Hindsight is heresy in the Imperium. Do what you've always done, because you don't know how to do it from scratch you can only follow the STC.
via a very solid source on Faeit 212 Let me give you some confirmation: The setting is being completely overhauled - true. The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true. Faction reduction to 6 - true
As for how it interacts with the current rules. 9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.
So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).
You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.
You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."
All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.
This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.
On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.
Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.
So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.
----
This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).
It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.
Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.
The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).
Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.
So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions, yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?
Also, that rumour saying GW are creating this new system in order to make a truly unique fantasy setting and reduce the likelihood of people buying proxies. Creating this new system will just encourage the purchasing of proxies since GW will not be supporting the existing lines as much for people who want to play the old way.
If these are true, I fully expect a: "use the bases your model was supplied with" rule like in 40k. No need to rebase unless you want to. IF it's true. Big IF.
Has BOLS picked up on this yet? I'm wondering what kind of positive spin they'll put on this "BREAKING NEWS"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
unmercifulconker wrote: Also, that rumour saying GW are creating this new system in order to make a truly unique fantasy setting and reduce the likelihood of people buying proxies. Creating this new system will just encourage the purchasing of proxies since GW will not be supporting the existing lines as much for people who want to play the old way.
That's likely what it is is for, to stop proxies or buying things from say Mantic or similar companies to use in WHFB games.
If it's a 'big change' that keeps huge units a requirement of WHFB, then it does nothing for me at all.
If they are going to blow things up, then blow them the hell up, don't half ass it.
but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
Sounds like this "new" game is DOA
It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company.
Very reminiscent of TSR and later WotC, no? At least WotC realized 4e wasn't being well received and worked on 5th, sure the damage might have been done to some people, but they acknowledged it at least and tried to fix it. I guarantee GW won't do anything of the sort.
I think this all sounds incredibly plausible, from a rumour point of view. Largely for the reasons posted by others (copyright, low sales, expansive range to support, etc.). It's also worth noting that most of this jives with what Harry on warseer was posting a long time ago about potential changes for WFB.
I'm going to wait and see what happens. The potential of having to rebase 200 models does not appeal to me, however, if it is for a good reason, I might accept it.
It's also worth noting, with regards to the limited model release window, that this is going to work even better for the style of business GW is attempting to run. No rumours, no anticipation, just knee-jerk reaction buying. "Check out this awesome new model. Like it? Well, it's only going to be available for 2 months."
As to their being aware of problems in the meta and moving to account for them... I'll believe it when I see it. I suspect it will be more a case of them escalating a power creep to sell new stuff.
It's also worth noting, with regards to the limited model release window, that this is going to work even better for the style of business GW is attempting to run. No rumours, no anticipation, just knee-jerk reaction buying. "Check out this awesome new model. Like it? Well, it's only going to be available for 2 months."
Not if I ask the recaster of my choice, it wont!
This might even boost their sales and make them better known since they'll be the only supply of OOP models. I can't imagine large stocks of second-hand stuff building up on ebay with run times of maybe as few as 6 months.
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th,
How on Earth can anyone think that this is even a remotely good idea?!
So they will release limited run models, that will be legal throughout the entire edition but that people that start late will never be able to acquire?! And they think that this is a good thing?!
Well if this be the case im finally out. Ive quit 40k, love fantasy but if they just kill the whole system and invalidate everything i have then im straight done. Ill stick to playing lotr and build that FoW army ive been talking about.
Sigvatr wrote: Reverse LotR strategy. WHFB becoming a skirmish, then GW releases another expansion that lets you field huge armies complete with movement trays etc.
Doubting the change, though. Like...Nagash for example is aimed at summoning giant hordes.
Im with you, i highly doubt the change simply because of the amount of money spent by gw to bring it to where it is to dump all of that. If its true im done but im taking these rumors with a ton of salt.
So they will release limited run models, that will be legal throughout the entire edition but that people that start late will never be able to acquire?! And they think that this is a good thing?
Yeah I dont get that logic at all to be honest.
I can accept having the core units available all of the time, for example, maybe a lord and 3 core choices but to release a limited run every so often that players could miss, not afford, overlook, not want etc is.....quite nasty as a tactic
To be frank, I don't care much for these changes. If the new edition blows, I will just stick playing 8th with competitive changes. GW ruined 40k with 6th/7th, so we went back to playing 4th instead.
ImAGeek wrote:I have a question, if, worst comes to worst, Fantasy goes the way of the dodo and it's suddenly a weird bubbly skirmish and I don't want to play, are there any games similar to Fantasy as is now? Most games these days seem to be skirmish.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
1. My mates at Mantic are going to make a killing. Kings of War is already an incredibly system, and if WHFB as we know it goes away, that system will just look that much better, AND will be an inviting home for all those with now obsolete armies.
Mayhem and Legions of Battle aren't to be sniffed at either. Both with fancy-schmancy unit creation rules that'll validate any minis you have or that GW kicks to the kerb in the future. Mayhem's action point and polydice mechanics are also very interesting, IMO, and LoB's basing is, er, based around multiple minis on elements that just happen to match groups of Warhammer-based minis. KoW is popular, but in the event of GW's (re)shrinking to a skirmish game, I don't think even that will take over mass fantasy gaming to an overwhelming degree. (not with that range of minis, anyway) The idea of 9th nobbling Warhammer and 8th dwindling away to a 'dead' also-ran might terrify some people, but to me, it opens up the market to more choice, more freedom. You just gotta grab it.
Platuan4th wrote:But the Kings of War rules suck.
Grey Templar wrote:Indeed. KoW are just alternate models for Warhammer Fantasy. I'll use GW or my own rules before KoW.
There are a couple of trip-ups that prevent KoW being my first choice, though one or two of them are addressed in the new edition, AFAIK. Otherwise, it's a pretty solid set of rules, and shares principles with the majority of fantasy and historical mass battle rules. Warhammer, being grown out of all proportion from a skirmish game and obsessing to an unusual degree over individual models, individual units, and individual special rules, rather than being built for purpose, is actually a weird anomaly in that regard.
hubcap wrote:That entry might be boring and generic ("Elven Light Cavalry" instead of Dark Riders / Sisters of the Thorn). But I bet you will be able to find a hole to fit most of your pegs.
You might say that, although I don't think things would go that generic; but you could also say that all the piling on of fiddly, 'characterful' units, aided by dual-kits, clutters the game, and has led to these rumours of chopping out half the armies just so they can fit on the shelf. (On another forum somebody complained about skaven turning from an army of hordes of little guys to an army of huge things. I was going to disagree, but then I counted - skaven get eight huge things as unit choices, alongside everything else. That's... just not necessary. By comparison, my WAB saxons could take huscarls, thegns, ceorls and geburs. I didn't even take huscarls and ceorls, and felt no poorer for it.) Not to mention the foisting of extra fluff into rules and stats lowers the ability to find or use suitable proxies. It's as if other companies can produce round pegs, square pegs, decagonal pegs even, but try fitting them in GW's squamous non-euclidean holes.
I'll take the regular holes, ta. The unit creation rules of the games I mentioned can take care of the general shape of that, so to speak. Most of the actual fluff will be taken care of by the appearance of the models I use and, well, the fluff. Any residual 'blandness' after that will outweighed by the games' focus on tactical considerations rather than speshul-snowflake rules.
In the same vein as my response to Platuan and Grey Templar: if you're too wedded to the idea of a dozen types of elf cavalry, all with their own distracting little idiosyncracies, then Warhammer's return to skirmish, with a more appropriate focus on characters and special rules, might be right up your alley.
pretre wrote:
You must have a different definition of 'Premier'.
Darnok (from Warseer) - Total rumors: (49 TRUE) / (17 FALSE) / (9 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
What is that... 65% correct?
versus say Lords of Wargaming:
Lords of Wargaming - Total rumors: (21 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (1 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
~96%
Are you seriously trying to mathammer GW rumour sources? What counts as an MEQ in this scenario?
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I was thinking- if fantasy as we know it disappears to be replaced by brand new armies with all new units(that naturally invalidate all of the current models), that in effect would also put an end to a lot of the me-too type companies that like to ride on GW's coattails in terms of producing proxy models.
I dunno... in the way Mantic, Bombshell etc. provide proxy rules, it seems to me it's an opportunity for some of those me-too companies, and others, to flood in and fill whatever gap GW leaves in the generic fantasy mass-battle market. And like Mantic, Bombshell etc., there are those who already do. Could be a time for Gamezone to make more than just a couple of elf units in that plastic/resin stuff they use. Like Harry said...
Ozymandias wrote:
Harry wrote:
I can't see them throwing out everything they have done either ... but the only way to own the IP is to loose all the generic Fantasy that other companies can copy ... normal Dwarves, Elves and sure as heck you have to get rid of the historical based human armies ... or you can go build an Empire or Bretonnian army from anyone's miniatures.
...and...
Baragash wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote: Limited time releases prevent 3rd party manufacturers gaining traction.
How so...? If sets are limited release 3rd party manufacturers can make money with alternate models for OOP kits.
Finally joining Dakka² merely for this: I so hope you are right.
You should hang around, though. Less chance of some mod banning you because you giggle once too often at GW's insanity, because you exist, or because it's Tuesday.
[/bitter]
Accolade wrote:6. If WHFB players are upset about this new game, so what? GW got their money already, and it's not like they were doing enough to support WHFB as it was.
I'm sure they were supporting FB enough. Just not to the heavy-breathing, rolling-in-a-pile-of-money degree that Kirby et al might like.
Yodhrin wrote:but within a very short space of time they won't be played often enough for people to count on being able to just show up at a club/store and get a game, and that trend is only going to get worse over time.
Your clubs and stores ain't got no facebook page or whatnot to organise? My dinky wee club with half a dozen people has a Google+ page for that purpose.
Its quite silly. Why leave something like that limited when they can keep selling it? They invested the money to produce it, why limit what you can make off of it. The only people limited edition models help are second hand sellers. It does NOTHING for gw
Its quite silly. Why leave something like that limited when they can keep selling it? They invested the money to produce it, why limit what you can make off of it. The only people limited edition models help are second hand sellers. It does NOTHING for gw
So printing new editions with new cards and making old cards obsolete or very hard to find does nothing for MtG? Weird, I thought that that was their whole commercial concept...
This is what GW is trying to accomplish if these rumours are true, taking the DLC from computer games that they have implemented already and mating it with the planned obsolescence of TCGs! Brilliant! (at least in the minds of GW's management it will be considered like that)
I don't see how short run injection moulding pays off. Such moulds are expensive, that's why GW wrings years of use out of them. How short term could they be thinking? Weeks like some of their books, or a couple of years like mtg? Trying a rotational system on miniatures in which models are continuously being deleted from catalogues while still being game playable will make the game untenable.
GW think they sell to collectors and making everything a rapidly selling out collectors item will create a cash injection on a monthly basis. That seems their approach with books and some products, conservative, low stock that rapidly sells out so there's little storage and distribution costs and no loss on unsold stock. But expanding that to the whole game system? I can't see gamers being on board for that. As I said in another thread, warhammer isnt a ccg, players don't want to chase the miniatures to play the game and will become quickly disillusioned. If they aren't already with the way GW is mismanaging the gaming community.
I find this rumour hard to believe now. GW won't want to throw away plastic moulds after one run, unless they're some cheap material that doesn't last anyway. If they do pursue this they'll be on their knees in short time.
Aluminum mold are shorter run, so they could be running as many as they can from a single mold, and that's it. Not saying I believe it all, but it's possible!
WayneTheGame wrote:I think if they really do that, it's going to be the final death knell for WHFB, because that sounds pretty stupid. Ironically about the only thing that sounds cool is the "WHFB Space Marines" concept
Yes... there's definitely... some irony going on here.
Platuan4th wrote:I'm also turned off by the whole damage counters rather than removing models way of approaching units.
But like I said, that's the way most others do it. And bleedin' good thing too. The tedious rigmarole of getting all those oversized dynamic models built so they rank up, plucking the whole thing apart again as part of the game mechanics, then slotting the 3D jigsaw back together for the next game, is part of what turned me off Warhammer. (Then WAB, played with Gripping Beast's plastic saxons [remember them from above?] and their every-which-way spears, really soured me on the whole idea of mass-battle casualty removal.)
unmercifulconker wrote:So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions
Oh the horror.
yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?
With any luck, the trend of falling WHFB popularity, combined with cessation of GW's spoonfeeding, will continue and new gamers' interest in older editions will be almost nonexistent.
Charles Rampant wrote:It is better than the last set of rumours. But ho boy, I'm not looking forward to rebasing dozens of infantry and MC models...
Then... don't.
unmercifulconker wrote:Also, that rumour saying GW are creating this new system in order to make a truly unique fantasy setting and reduce the likelihood of people buying proxies. Creating this new system will just encourage the purchasing of proxies since GW will not be supporting the existing lines as much for people who want to play the old way.
Tooling plastic molds isn't the boogeyman it used to be 10 years ago. Heck, even at the start of 5th GW made a mold just to throw in a mini sprue with WD. That one company in the UK made like 5 different molds on a 10k Kickstarter. It's not the big deal the internet makes it out to be.
There's this huge (Old) world full of history and lore, countless tribes, races, civilizations with their own unique flavour, stories, prophecies etc.
Then you have bubbles.
Each full of the former.
I think it can allow for some interesting story or additional short stories. where the skaven bubble suddenly take complete control over there own bubble. come down then because gentlemen with top hats and mustaches.
Desubot wrote: I think it can allow for some interesting story or additional short stories. where the skaven bubble suddenly take complete control over there own bubble. come down then because gentlemen with top hats and mustaches.
dont you want rats with top hats and mustaches?
It does seem really cool imagining massed armies just standing and bracing, waiting for a sudden storm of another army, but all I can imagine is those small worlds like on the British Gas adverts.
I think that's one of the most interesting things about these rumours. How do they work? In what way are they... 'adrift'? Are the bubbles like quantum realities, containing entire worlds if not universes? Are they like DnD planes or Marvel-Thor's network of worlds? Do they float in space or in a sea of Chaos (the warp, empyrean, etc.)? Is the latter possible if Chaos controls some of these bubbles? (You'd imagine the powers would just 'pop' them into the wider Chaos once conquered) Is there communication and travel between them beyond accidental collision?
via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:
The setting is being completely overhauled - true.
The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true.
Faction reduction to 6 - true
As for how it interacts with the current rules.
9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.
So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).
You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.
You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."
All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.
This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.
On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.
Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.
So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.
----
This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).
It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.
Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.
The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).
Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
It is as reliable as anything that comes from Natfka.
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
Sooooo... make changes to the meta, or what JJ and crew think is the meta, with limited edition releases. If you don't get the limited edition release, then no meta fix for you.
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
It is as reliable as anything that comes from Natfka.
Still, it jives with the original rumor, although adding talk of bases. We've got a whole different thread on bases now, of course - round, hex, octagon, let those rumors fly
It destroys an entire layer of military and political thinking. No longer can you work towards strategic goals by forming alliances or declaring wars, because your ability to even act at the strategic level is now at the mercy of The Faraway Tree. If somebody starts a war it should be to do something, not just because somebody showed up and you didn't have anything better to do.
One of the things I always liked the idea of was that the Warhammer World was a world surrounded by Chaos (within The Warp in 40k terms) and that it was being prevented from being consumed by some sort of Old One shielding technology. The Realms of Chaos at the north and south poles are where the Old Ones Warp gates had collapsed and Chaos was seeping in to the world.
Now that the End Times have Chaos spilling out like never before, the shielding technology is failing further and further, leading us to this rumored condition of the Warhammer World several hundred years down the timeline where Chaos is the norm, and reality exists only in these "pockets".
What if these pockets were generated by "magic items" that were really Old One tech designed to protect an area from Warpspace? Much like the tech that used to protect the entire planet, but on a smaller scale. Like lanterns of normality in a sea of insanity.
Survivors are just those lucky enough to be near the tech when the world was consumed. Some know about it, some may even be able to move them around, some may not even know why they were spared. Could be some interesting storytelling there.
Alex C wrote: Regarding the "pocket realities" rumor...
One of the things I always liked the idea of was that the Warhammer World was a world surrounded by Chaos (within The Warp in 40k terms) and that it was being prevented from being consumed by some sort of Old One shielding technology. The Realms of Chaos at the north and south poles are where the Old Ones Warp gates had collapsed and Chaos was seeping in to the world.
Now that the End Times have Chaos spilling out like never before, the shielding technology is failing further and further, leading us to this rumored condition of the Warhammer World several hundred years down the timeline where Chaos is the norm, and reality exists only in these "pockets".
What if these pockets were generated by "magic items" that were really Old One tech designed to protect an area from Warpspace? Much like the tech that used to protect the entire planet, but on a smaller scale. Like lanterns of normality in a sea of insanity.
Survivors are just those lucky enough to be near the tech when the world was consumed. Some know about it, some may even be able to move them around, some may not even know why they were spared. Could be some interesting storytelling there.
This sounds really cool actually; the world still exists but is almost entirely consumed by chaos. The only problem is these skirmish games. The forces of Chaos should be large and powerful enough to just pile drive into every small pocket in the world left.
RiTides wrote:Still, it jives with the original rumor, although adding talk of bases. We've got a whole different thread on bases now, of course - round, hex, octagon, let those rumors fly
I said it - non-euclidean. Especially in the Chaos bubbles.
It destroys an entire layer of military and political thinking. No longer can you work towards strategic goals by forming alliances or declaring wars, because your ability to even act at the strategic level is now at the mercy of The Faraway Tree. If somebody starts a war it should be to do something, not just because somebody showed up and you didn't have anything better to do.
I hear you and agree with you, but I gotta say, I don't think a lot of Warhammer players care about that so much as mashing two armies together and whacking at eachother with special rules.
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unmercifulconker wrote: The forces of Chaos should be large and powerful enough to just pile drive into every small pocket in the world left.
Which is what confuses me as to what the 'sea' these dimensional bubbles float in actually is.
It just doesn't make sense that they'd drop that much and do such a risky move, potentially alienating all the current Warhammer fans.
Seems more likely that we'll have a 9th edition with the End Times modifications to the core rules mixed in, and they'll leave things floating in the air to focus on the (more-profitable) 40k line. Think about it: whyspend effort trying to develop a bunch of books that would be obsolete in months, why cut their army count in half, why frustrate more of their playerbase,why get rid of their current sculpts, andwhy waste money reinventing the wheel?
I'm not saying that these rumors aren't true, but I'm just saying that it's a good idea to take them with a grain of salt.
And maybe all the people who are panicking and up in arms about the changes will look back after summer and say...
Even if there's a good idea nestled somewhere in that mess, there's no way GW could pull it off well enough to be considered a product worthy of the price they'll surely be asking for it.
Like a lot of what GW does, good ideas marred by poor execution. And terrible pricing.
And frankly, this doesn't even sound like a good idea in the first place.
I'm a little concerned for what this means for 40k a year or two from now.
For now, I'll carry around my salt shaker everywhere.
It's also worth noting, with regards to the limited model release window, that this is going to work even better for the style of business GW is attempting to run. No rumours, no anticipation, just knee-jerk reaction buying. "Check out this awesome new model. Like it? Well, it's only going to be available for 2 months."
Not if I ask the recaster of my choice, it wont!
This might even boost their sales and make them better known since they'll be the only supply of OOP models. I can't imagine large stocks of second-hand stuff building up on ebay with run times of maybe as few as 6 months.
Yeah pretty much this. Despite the ludicrous price difference, I've avoided recasters because it felt like, regardless of how gittish GW were being, I would be a bigger git if I bought knockoffs. But if GW are going to switch to a system explicitly based on making their bog-standard everyday releases into short-window limited editions? feth 'em. If GW start down this path of "give us your money right this instant or we don't even want it, pleb", why should the community feel any loyalty towards them?
What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Accolade wrote: I don't know what to think of it; I had read rumors about this idea a few months ago but it was so far off I hadn't thought about it since. It has cropped up again, and from a rather reliable source.
WFB 9E is exactly what everybody should have expected in the wake of GW's devastating loss to Chapterhouse Studios.
Anybody who didn't see this coming years ago must be extremely naive.
All of the generic Fantasy and historical elements disappear, because GW IP doesn't cover them. At all. Those historical Landskecht troops and Crusaders? Gone. The generic mummies and skeletons? Gone. Tolkienesque / D&D Elves? Gone. Slightly modified dinosaurs and lizards? Gone. Generic names like "Wood Elves", "High Elves", "Dark Elves"? Gone.
And rightly so. GW got away with trading on generic stuff for far too long, only because they were the 900-lb gorilla of minis gaming. Now, we have:
- Mantic pushing generic fantasy out using the 100 bulk minis for $100 Kickstarters,
- Raging Heroes killing the top and moving onto armies, and
- Warmahordes and Wyrd unique IP being impossible for 3rd parties to step on.
"It's just business, nothing personal."
And speaking of things being "just business" (which always precedes some really cold-blooded gak going down), it can't be a surprise that GW is drastically trimming the armies and the army contents. Chaos, Humans, Elves, Orcs, Skaven, & Undead are a perfectly acceptable range of armies consistent with the reduction of WFB's market share and revenue.
With GW following the 40k model for Fantasy, building unique IP, we should expect Gothic and Grimdark (tm) to dominate the new product where it's not obviously GW (i.e. Chaos).
Anyhow, my Dogs of War welcome you to obsolescence. Hope you lot take to the changes better than I did (basically stopped playing).
I went ahead and added Harry's info. and the rumors from Naftka to the OP to try to keep all available sources as easy access. If anyone thinks anything else needs to be added, please send me a PM and I'll be happy to make any changes.
I had to register just so I could reply because this is a topic I am really excited about.
I personally am looking forward to any and all change towards smaller army based games in a fantasy setting.
Minus the rumor of re-basing, I hate round bases. I dont have long periods of time to play either so smaller faster games that I can work around family obligations also sounds great.
As a collector I have alot of one off models for Pathfinder/D&D so this would be nice not having to need a 50 block of some core unit. Also how many times has a cool unit come out that looked super cool to paint but it was not for your army. I think it would be nice to open a range of options.
As long as the bases stay square and I can still play 8th edition as well. I dont see it as too bad.
Desubot wrote: As long as i can keep playing my skaven im happy.
There is always just play the old books too.
I like the realm bubbles idea kinda reminds me of shards of alura block from MTG (IIRC) or just MTG in general.
If t hey retcon out skaven then counts as here i come!
I'm really more bummed that Skaven, Bretonnia, and Beastmen wont get an 8th edition hardback army book...Next time I see Skaven it will be in its (rumored) stripped down basic army with Clanrats, Slaves and Stormvermin....then I'll have to buy a separate $50 hardback (Or worse a digital only dataslate!) 'Pestilens' supplement to use my plague monks, plague priests, censer bearers, catapults and furnace...and if I want to use my HPA and Rat Ogres, I will have to buy the Clan Moulder supplement, If I want to use globadiers or warp lightning cannons, I 'll need the Skryre dataslate/supplement...pretty soon I'm $200+ in just to get the updated rules for my existing army (This has already happened with 40k). I already can't keep up with all of the huge price tag releases...I got burned bad watching Confrontation die a slow and horrible death...we swore we would just keep playing with what we had, but nothing kills a game faster than lack of support in its current form...I fear the same with WHFB as we know and love it...
gorgon wrote: What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Why would that matter? If I'm trying to build the army I want to build and the units I fancy aren't available any more and never will be again, does the fact they were available for six months rather than one week make any difference to me? Just think about it in the context of, say, 40K for a moment; I decide I want to build a Space Marines army, I look in the codex and certain units appeal, but then I go to the GW site to give them my money and, oops, turns out Assault Squads sold out the previous month. So I make a different list, but I notice Terminators are yet another limited release product, I've no idea how long they'll remain for sale, so I have to choose between building a playable army on my own schedule or forking over for the Terminators, which would have been my fifth or sixth purchase, immediately or else risk never getting them.
Bollocks to that, there's a reason I dropped CCGs entirely and switched all of my hobby focus to wargaming.
Interesting, but wrong-headed. This is not "just business", it is self-destructive cowardice. Refusing to contest the lower price brackets, the name "Imperial Guard", space games, skirmish games and generic fantasy races doesn't make these things go away, it just creates room for their competitors to take root and grow. Games Workshop has a ton of kits which are currently in the "sprues for pennies" stage of development - it would have been better to take advantage of that to deny these markets to the competition, to salt the earth so that their competitors could not grow there, and generate goodwill at the same time.
Grey Templar wrote: Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.
Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.
unmercifulconker wrote: So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions, yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?
I call "SALT!" on the round bases. I believe everything else, though.
With GW following the 40k model for Fantasy, building unique IP, we should expect Gothic and Grimdark (tm) to dominate the new product where it's not obviously GW (i.e. Chaos).
Grey Templar wrote: Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.
Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.
Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?
hmmm..I stoped WHFB like 4 editions ago..and may if this very much salt worthy rumor pans out..may get back in..if it has a more skirmish and less rectangular blocks of models bashing into other rectangles feel to it.
I will say some of the newest fantasy models are very enticing..so I will stay tuned and see how this pans out.
gorgon wrote: What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Yeah, because being told that your entire army is going to be "squatted" is no reason for concern. I've only spend $1500 and countless hours on GW Ogres, there's no reason for me to be upset over them completely invalidating the entire army, is there?
That said, I'm not running around with my hair on fire but at least one of the sources touting this change is a dependable rumormonger which makes me concerned. Call it "panic" if you like. If it's true, why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?
Grey Templar wrote: Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.
Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.
Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?
Indeed. Their business model would have worked with a slight tweak and a reality check on who their actual best source of money is. Also assuming they don't make choices that piss off players.
Dogs of War were a great idea, but poorly executed. Balance issues were rampant. The only way to fix them would have been to either drop them or totally overhaul them. Poor form to drop them completely, but I understand the logic behind it.
gorgon wrote: What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Technically yes, but since GW managed to botch everything they put their mind to for quite a while now and have an explicit history of having stuff sell out during pre-orders or shortly after, a bit of mistrust is pretty much to be expected.
Grey Templar wrote: If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.
Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.
Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.
Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?
The 8E ruleset was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was doing OK with my DoW using the WD army lists in 7E, but 8E really changed the way the game played, to the point that I didn't want to play it. I don't like stupid random magic at all, for starters.
I might have played my DoW longer, had 8E been more like 6E. But not as it currently sits. And I have very similar issues with the rules bloat and "closest first" crap in 40k 7E.
Wow! This sounds horrible. My brother and his wife have nice fantasy armies. Now I get to tell them their armies are pretty much invalidated. Sure, they can continue to play the old unsupported dexes, but how long can that last?
If I played fantasy, I'd be pissed.
Way to piss off your loyal fans in favor of getting young Timmy to buy a giant model.
Agreed i've not done much fantasy lately but my 3k ogres and 5k dwarfs and 4k lizards will not be happy with these rumored changes. Its definatly a concern but theres nothing solid yet so no panic, i will be keeping an eye on these though.
gorgon wrote: What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Yeah, because being told that your entire army is going to be "squatted" is no reason for concern. I've only spend $1500 and countless hours on GW Ogres, there's no reason for me to be upset over them completely invalidating the entire army, is there?
That said, I'm not running around with my hair on fire but at least one of the sources touting this change is a dependable rumormonger which makes me concerned. Call it "panic" if you like. If it's true, why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?
Hey there, chief. My post was pretty obviously in reference to the release schedule component to these rumors.
So lighten the feth up. You have miniatures, I have miniatures, we all have miniatures. And none of us really know what's going to happen. I suspect that even if these rumors come to pass, there will still be a healthy number of people playing 8th edition (or some variant thereof). Especially since organized play is now in the hands of the people instead of the company.
MWHistorian wrote: Wow! This sounds horrible. My brother and his wife have nice fantasy armies. Now I get to tell them their armies are pretty much invalidated. Sure, they can continue to play the old unsupported dexes, but how long can that last?
Until some details are confirmed there are a lot of rumours and not much fact, so what would you tell them?
Perhaps if GW weren't so secretive and a bit more aware of what is discussed on social media they could head off panic causing rumours. It won't be long until people are asking shop staff what the deal is going to be this summer.
Perhaps if GW weren't so secretive and a bit more aware of what is discussed on social media they could head off panic causing rumours. It won't be long until people are asking shop staff what the deal is going to be this summer.
Except... well... store staff don't know anything.
Mysterious Pants wrote:It just doesn't make sense that they'd drop that much and do such a risky move, potentially alienating all the current Warhammer fans.
Seems more likely that we'll have a 9th edition with the End Times modifications to the core rules mixed in, and they'll leave things floating in the air to focus on the (more-profitable) 40k line. Think about it: whyspend effort trying to develop a bunch of books that would be obsolete in months, why cut their army count in half, why frustrate more of their playerbase,why get rid of their current sculpts, andwhy waste money reinventing the wheel?
I'm not saying that these rumors aren't true, but I'm just saying that it's a good idea to take them with a grain of salt.
And maybe all the people who are panicking and up in arms about the changes will look back after summer and say...
Spoiler:
I agree that its still just a rumour. But gw has a pretty clear track record at this point, and this seems like something they would do. Don't forget this is the company that destroyed it's surplus dreadfleet stock rather than sell it at a discount to try and move it. Sprues for pennies, why not?
Interesting, but wrong-headed. This is not "just business", it is self-destructive cowardice. Refusing to contest the lower price brackets, the name "Imperial Guard", space games, skirmish games and generic fantasy races doesn't make these things go away, it just creates room for their competitors to take root and grow. Games Workshop has a ton of kits which are currently in the "sprues for pennies" stage of development - it would have been better to take advantage of that to deny these markets to the competition, to salt the earth so that their competitors could not grow there, and generate goodwill at the same time.
unmercifulconker wrote: So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions, yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?
I call "SALT!" on the round bases. I believe everything else, though.
Why? The best way to make WFB unique is to move to round bases. It reduces their SKUs as they can use the same both systems. I wonder if they'll make the unit sizes 8? So they can use the WoTR trays. (edit just realized this will not work as they will not fit the new 32mm rounds)
I am pulling out my WoTR to see how that may go. It was one of their best systems no matter the popularity.
gorgon wrote: What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."
Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.
Technically yes, but since GW managed to botch everything they put their mind to for quite a while now and have an explicit history of having stuff sell out during pre-orders or shortly after, a bit of mistrust is pretty much to be expected.
I've had to do some product scavenger hunts myself in recent months, so I understand. But I hazard to guess that between the stuff that sits on the shelves of retailers and the secondary market, that availability won't be a major issue for a decent period of time.
I realize that the rumors suggest that there will be core units that are always available. But especially when they're launching this thing, it'd be a pretty big buzzkill if the first wave of non-core kits disappeared in a few months. The fact that they're rebooting the game means that they want it to succeed. They could have just left it alone and let it continue on its current path to irrelevance.
Plus, given the collections that people already own, I suspect we'll see lots of proxying when possible. Not everyone is going to buy the new not-Rat Ogres Skaven monstrous infantry unit, right? And we'll probably see plenty of Warriors of Nice with poofy sleeves or fleur-de-lis.
There's nothing I dislike about any of these rumours. I've never played Warhammer Fantasy, only 40k, but pretty much everything they've released for Fantasy in the last five years has been brilliant. The recent Dark Elves and Undead stuff (as well as the Nurgle End Times stuff), particularly. Unless something bizarre happens and the quality suddenly drops between now and summer, I imagine the models for the "new" fantasy will be excellent. So I'm looking forward to it.
MWHistorian wrote: Wow! This sounds horrible. My brother and his wife have nice fantasy armies. Now I get to tell them their armies are pretty much invalidated. Sure, they can continue to play the old unsupported dexes, but how long can that last?
8th edition is in a good spot. It wouldn't be terrible to continue using it. There aren't any glaring flaws or mega imbalances in the base game.
A simple third part FAQ/Errata would be sufficient to make it a great game.
Has anyone guessed at how the current 15 armies would be broken down to 6?
1: Demons, Warriors, Beastmen
2: Tombkings, VC 3: Empire, Brettonia
4: All The Elves!
5: Skaven
6: Lizardmen
That still leaves Ogres, O+G, and Dwarves.
Maybe they'll break it down Good/Neutral/Evil lines? With new magical names of course.
So Lawful Good (Humans and Dwarve), Chaotic Good (Elves), Lawful Neutral (Lizardmen), Chaotic Neutral (Ogres and O+G), Lawful Evil (Undead), Chaotic Evil (Chaos and Skaven)
That's still super sloppy. It's hard to imagine several armies sticking around if 6 really is the number.
Interesting, but wrong-headed. This is not "just business", it is self-destructive cowardice. Refusing to contest the lower price brackets, the name "Imperial Guard", space games, skirmish games and generic fantasy races doesn't make these things go away, it just creates room for their competitors to take root and grow. Games Workshop has a ton of kits which are currently in the "sprues for pennies" stage of development - it would have been better to take advantage of that to deny these markets to the competition, to salt the earth so that their competitors could not grow there, and generate goodwill at the same time.
Better for GW, you assume. Worse for all the other players in the industry who are only viable because of the price point that GW have established.
I'm not sure how radically revising one of your core games is 'cowardice'. I'm also not saying it's smart though. The cowardly part comes if they don't really revise things but just shuffle stock around inside a 'new setting' that uses the same game.
Confess I've read this thread with mixed emotions. Always loved the Warhammer Fantasy background and setting, but found the armies very time consuming and clunky to put together and the current rule system is junk IMHO
Put me in the wait and see camp, but can't see myself investing in something new on a massive scale. I can't see GW getting it right either.
plastictrees wrote: Has anyone guessed at how the current 15 armies would be broken down to 6?
1: Demons, Warriors, Beastmen
2: Tombkings, VC 3: Empire, Brettonia, Dwarfs
4: All The Elves!
5: Skaven
6: O&G, OK
If I were a Lizardman player, I would be extremely concerned about the 'the Exodus has begun' line in ET:Nagash.
There are a couple armies like Lizards and OK that I could see being some kind of merc, ally force, but not officially viable as a full force.
Surely darves would still be around? Lumped into another grouping, likely.
I'm hopeful chaos dwarfs are still usable in some fashion, I get the impression they sell well for FW. I'm guessing a pdf / dataslate-like document for using/adding them, and their being considered part of the chaos grouping.
Then again you could tinfoil hat but adopt the line GW is going to go IP nutty.
Anything that has significant rivals via other companies goes bye bye.
So Dwarfs, Orcs both go.
Elves might go, leaving possibly Dark Elves.
Undead go too leaving some iteration of them.
So you're left with the more unique IPs
Empire/Brets
Chaos + Daemons
Lizzies
Ogres
Some version of undead
Skaven
Flashman wrote: Confess I've read this thread with mixed emotions. Always loved the Warhammer Fantasy background and setting, but found the armies very time consuming and clunky to put together and the current rule system is junk IMHO
Same here, which is why I'd approve fundamental revamping the rules and armybooks, but butchering the setting this extent is completely unnecessary. It is also most bizarre aspect in this, I really don't understand what they hope to gain by that.
The thing that's annoyed me most about this rumour, is that it's basically hearsay still. Look at like 3rd edition Infinity, we knew about that AT LEAST 6 months before, and that was just a new edition, this is a lot bigger than that. I'd find it easier to swallow if GW actually spelled out exactly what was happening, giving us time to adjust. But know we won't know til the week before and someone gets a dodgy whiet dwarf photo.
Feels a lot like 'we'll keep them in the dark to squeeze every penny we can, then pull the rug from under them'.
Pretty sure O&G are one of WFB's consistently better selling ranges. Seems easy enough to squish them and ogres together (which fills some gameplay gaps).
If it's down to 6, the races will be:
1.) Chaos
2.) Undead
3.) Elves
4.) Something including Greenskins
5.) Skaven
6.) Something including humans (may include other good races)
decker_cky wrote: Pretty sure O&G are one of WFB's consistently better selling ranges. Seems easy enough to squish them and ogres together (which fills some gameplay gaps).
If it's down to 6, the races will be:
1.) Chaos
2.) Undead
3.) Elves
4.) Something including Greenskins
5.) Skaven
6.) Something including humans (may include other good races)
Yeah, I think that's pretty obviously it. The End Times are setting it all up already. And of course the rumors suggest that all these factions will be getting a facelift.
It's also highly possible that they add a faction or two down the road.
I'm fairly neutral towards the fluff /army-organisation stuff -- change is good, if they don't mess it up -- but the new buisness modell, should it be implemented as the rumors state, has me a bit worried.
In a "limited run time" release modell I see way too much temptation for a company too follow a "newer is better" approach, to boost sales.
From a buisness perspective there just is little need to keep "out of print" modells competetive, when all the money comes from new modells.
And let's be honest: GW is a company. The Goal of any company is to make money. When whoever is in charge thinks, that they can get away with charging more, they will do so.
DrunkPhilisoph wrote: I'm fairly neutral towards the fluff /army-organisation stuff -- change is good, if they don't mess it up -- but the new buisness modell, should it be implemented as the rumors state, has me a bit worried.
In a "limited run time" release modell I see way too much temptation for a company too follow a "newer is better" approach, to boost sales.
From a buisness perspective there just is little need to keep "out of print" modells competetive, when all the money comes from new modells.
And let's be honest: GW is a company. The Goal of any company is to make money. When whoever is in charge thinks, that they can get away with charging more, they will do so.
This is GW, so you have nothing to be worried about.
The idea that they would use limited releases, "newer is better" to boost sales? Ludicrous.
Or that GW would think to get away with charging more? Never gonna happen.
Lizardmen are too popular. I'd expect them to get rolled in with the Orks & Goblins before getting squatted. I'd also think the Ogres would be rolled into O&G because of the Knoblars.
1. Chaos (including beastmen, chaos followers, demons and maybe chaos dwarves or somesuch). Skaven may or may not end up here.
2. The fantasy marines with humans, halflings, dwarves and elven auxilliaries
3. Orks, goblins and Ogres
4. Lizzardmen with maybe some other part of the "good" or "neutral" races. A part of the Elves may or may not end up here.
5. Undead of all sorts
6. I assume another evil but not chaos-y or neutral faction. Dark elves + Skaven? Some sort of other habitants of these reality bubbles (think Draenei)?
This sounds exactly like what GW would do to me. Change everything around at the expense of those who have already invested tons o cash, and are probaby all wringed out, hopefully make it less model intensive so you can actually get some new blood interested in buying (remember rules and fluff are not important) and even combine armies together so that anyone that does stay that is invested in say orcs and goblins, now has to invest in ogre kingdoms too to stay competative/make up for their lost units.
Honestly Ill be more suprised if this DOSENT happen.
all
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