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Wait a sec. Is it just me or dose the new war hammer fantasy setting sound A LOT like spell jammer?

Even if there's a good idea nestled somewhere in that mess, there's no way GW could pull it off well enough to be considered a product worthy of the price they'll surely be asking for it.

Like a lot of what GW does, good ideas marred by poor execution. And terrible pricing.

And frankly, this doesn't even sound like a good idea in the first place.

I'm a little concerned for what this means for 40k a year or two from now.

For now, I'll carry around my salt shaker everywhere.

 Kosake wrote:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

It's also worth noting, with regards to the limited model release window, that this is going to work even better for the style of business GW is attempting to run. No rumours, no anticipation, just knee-jerk reaction buying. "Check out this awesome new model. Like it? Well, it's only going to be available for 2 months."

Not if I ask the recaster of my choice, it wont!
This might even boost their sales and make them better known since they'll be the only supply of OOP models. I can't imagine large stocks of second-hand stuff building up on ebay with run times of maybe as few as 6 months.

Yeah pretty much this. Despite the ludicrous price difference, I've avoided recasters because it felt like, regardless of how gittish GW were being, I would be a bigger git if I bought knockoffs. But if GW are going to switch to a system explicitly based on making their bog-standard everyday releases into short-window limited editions? feth 'em. If GW start down this path of "give us your money right this instant or we don't even want it, pleb", why should the community feel any loyalty towards them?

As a reminder, discussing recasting is not permitted on Dakka Dakka (or at least, not advocating it). Thanks for understanding.

What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."

Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.

 Lockark wrote:
Wait a sec. Is it just me or dose the new war hammer fantasy setting sound A LOT like spell jammer?

Please don't give GW ideas I'd rather remember Spell Jammer as it is.

 Accolade wrote:
I don't know what to think of it; I had read rumors about this idea a few months ago but it was so far off I hadn't thought about it since. It has cropped up again, and from a rather reliable source.

WFB 9E is exactly what everybody should have expected in the wake of GW's devastating loss to Chapterhouse Studios.

Anybody who didn't see this coming years ago must be extremely naive.

All of the generic Fantasy and historical elements disappear, because GW IP doesn't cover them. At all. Those historical Landskecht troops and Crusaders? Gone. The generic mummies and skeletons? Gone. Tolkienesque / D&D Elves? Gone. Slightly modified dinosaurs and lizards? Gone. Generic names like "Wood Elves", "High Elves", "Dark Elves"? Gone.

And rightly so. GW got away with trading on generic stuff for far too long, only because they were the 900-lb gorilla of minis gaming. Now, we have:
- Mantic pushing generic fantasy out using the 100 bulk minis for $100 Kickstarters,
- Raging Heroes killing the top and moving onto armies, and
- Warmahordes and Wyrd unique IP being impossible for 3rd parties to step on.

"It's just business, nothing personal."


And speaking of things being "just business" (which always precedes some really cold-blooded gak going down), it can't be a surprise that GW is drastically trimming the armies and the army contents. Chaos, Humans, Elves, Orcs, Skaven, & Undead are a perfectly acceptable range of armies consistent with the reduction of WFB's market share and revenue.

With GW following the 40k model for Fantasy, building unique IP, we should expect Gothic and Grimdark (tm) to dominate the new product where it's not obviously GW (i.e. Chaos).


Anyhow, my Dogs of War welcome you to obsolescence. Hope you lot take to the changes better than I did (basically stopped playing).

Interesting post DD.

I went ahead and added Harry's info. and the rumors from Naftka to the OP to try to keep all available sources as easy access. If anyone thinks anything else needs to be added, please send me a PM and I'll be happy to make any changes.

I had to register just so I could reply because this is a topic I am really excited about.

I personally am looking forward to any and all change towards smaller army based games in a fantasy setting.

Minus the rumor of re-basing, I hate round bases. I dont have long periods of time to play either so smaller faster games that I can work around family obligations also sounds great.

As a collector I have alot of one off models for Pathfinder/D&D so this would be nice not having to need a 50 block of some core unit. Also how many times has a cool unit come out that looked super cool to paint but it was not for your army. I think it would be nice to open a range of options.

As long as the bases stay square and I can still play 8th edition as well. I dont see it as too bad.

 Desubot wrote:
As long as i can keep playing my skaven im happy.

There is always just play the old books too.

I like the realm bubbles idea kinda reminds me of shards of alura block from MTG (IIRC) or just MTG in general.

If t hey retcon out skaven then counts as here i come!

I'm really more bummed that Skaven, Bretonnia, and Beastmen wont get an 8th edition hardback army book...Next time I see Skaven it will be in its (rumored) stripped down basic army with Clanrats, Slaves and Stormvermin....then I'll have to buy a separate $50 hardback (Or worse a digital only dataslate!) 'Pestilens' supplement to use my plague monks, plague priests, censer bearers, catapults and furnace...and if I want to use my HPA and Rat Ogres, I will have to buy the Clan Moulder supplement, If I want to use globadiers or warp lightning cannons, I 'll need the Skryre dataslate/supplement...pretty soon I'm $200+ in just to get the updated rules for my existing army (This has already happened with 40k). I already can't keep up with all of the huge price tag releases...I got burned bad watching Confrontation die a slow and horrible death...we swore we would just keep playing with what we had, but nothing kills a game faster than lack of support in its current form...I fear the same with WHFB as we know and love it...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

- Warmahordes and Wyrd unique IP being impossible for 3rd parties to step on.

Can't wait for the companies who'll make 'generic' fantasy steampunk robot bits.

 gorgon wrote:
What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."

Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.

Why would that matter? If I'm trying to build the army I want to build and the units I fancy aren't available any more and never will be again, does the fact they were available for six months rather than one week make any difference to me? Just think about it in the context of, say, 40K for a moment; I decide I want to build a Space Marines army, I look in the codex and certain units appeal, but then I go to the GW site to give them my money and, oops, turns out Assault Squads sold out the previous month. So I make a different list, but I notice Terminators are yet another limited release product, I've no idea how long they'll remain for sale, so I have to choose between building a playable army on my own schedule or forking over for the Terminators, which would have been my fifth or sixth purchase, immediately or else risk never getting them.

Bollocks to that, there's a reason I dropped CCGs entirely and switched all of my hobby focus to wargaming.

 Ratius wrote:
Interesting post DD.

Interesting, but wrong-headed. This is not "just business", it is self-destructive cowardice. Refusing to contest the lower price brackets, the name "Imperial Guard", space games, skirmish games and generic fantasy races doesn't make these things go away, it just creates room for their competitors to take root and grow. Games Workshop has a ton of kits which are currently in the "sprues for pennies" stage of development - it would have been better to take advantage of that to deny these markets to the competition, to salt the earth so that their competitors could not grow there, and generate goodwill at the same time.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.

If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.

Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.

Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.

Yikes! Maybe we could sign a petition or something? Even if is is just rumourmongering, perhaps we can preemptively protest?

 unmercifulconker wrote:
So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions, yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?

I call "SALT!" on the round bases. I believe everything else, though.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


With GW following the 40k model for Fantasy, building unique IP, we should expect Gothic and Grimdark (tm) to dominate the new product where it's not obviously GW (i.e. Chaos).

Kits with even moar skulls? That's unpossible.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.

If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.

Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.

Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.

Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?

hmmm..I stoped WHFB like 4 editions ago..and may if this very much salt worthy rumor pans out..may get back in..if it has a more skirmish and less rectangular blocks of models bashing into other rectangles feel to it.

I will say some of the newest fantasy models are very enticing..so I will stay tuned and see how this pans out.

 gorgon wrote:
What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."

Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.

Yeah, because being told that your entire army is going to be "squatted" is no reason for concern. I've only spend $1500 and countless hours on GW Ogres, there's no reason for me to be upset over them completely invalidating the entire army, is there?

That said, I'm not running around with my hair on fire but at least one of the sources touting this change is a dependable rumormonger which makes me concerned. Call it "panic" if you like. If it's true, why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Vets are actually a better source of income given GW's previous model of doing business.

If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.

Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.

Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.

Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?

Indeed. Their business model would have worked with a slight tweak and a reality check on who their actual best source of money is. Also assuming they don't make choices that piss off players.

Dogs of War were a great idea, but poorly executed. Balance issues were rampant. The only way to fix them would have been to either drop them or totally overhaul them. Poor form to drop them completely, but I understand the logic behind it.

migooo wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Wait a sec. Is it just me or dose the new war hammer fantasy setting sound A LOT like spell jammer?

Please don't give GW ideas I'd rather remember Spell Jammer as it is.

The thing is the rumor was talking about how fresh and new the setting was. But then you realize they are just ripping off spell jammer.

Oh well. Maby we will get spell jammer Man 'o war.

 agnosto wrote:
why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?

Not really a fair comparison, because this:

completely invalidating the entire army

... isn't really true.

 gorgon wrote:
What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."

Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.

Technically yes, but since GW managed to botch everything they put their mind to for quite a while now and have an explicit history of having stuff sell out during pre-orders or shortly after, a bit of mistrust is pretty much to be expected.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If you focus on appeasing existing players, thats a practically guaranteed $350-400 per player per army per release cycle.

Not necessarily. I don't like the changes for the sake of change, so I stopped buying Fantasy once they stopped supporting my Dogs of War. I stopped building, stopped converting, stopped painting, completely stopped buying (and playing) once 8E hit. I sold off my extra armies and am in a holding pattern, waiting for the day that Fantasy becomes interesting again. 9E hits the reset button for everyone, so I might go back. But for me, that would mean, at most, a new rulebook and army book. I will simply play "count as" from my existing stock of models, or perhaps assemble & paint a few things that have been sitting in cold storage for the past several years.

Thinking about it, I really ought to unload the Fantasy stuff that won't obviously fit with my Dogs of War army, should I ever resurrect it.

Wasn't that almost exactly his point? Had they not stopped supporting the army you enjoyed playing would you have quit the way that you did? Or would you have continued to collect, build, and play the way you had been doing before?

The 8E ruleset was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was doing OK with my DoW using the WD army lists in 7E, but 8E really changed the way the game played, to the point that I didn't want to play it. I don't like stupid random magic at all, for starters.

I might have played my DoW longer, had 8E been more like 6E. But not as it currently sits. And I have very similar issues with the rules bloat and "closest first" crap in 40k 7E.

darkcloak wrote:
Yikes! Maybe we could sign a petition or something? Even if is is just rumourmongering, perhaps we can preemptively protest?

How?

If it is true, the End Times themselves are the set-up. This has already been a year in the making at the very least, probably 2+.

Wow! This sounds horrible. My brother and his wife have nice fantasy armies. Now I get to tell them their armies are pretty much invalidated. Sure, they can continue to play the old unsupported dexes, but how long can that last?
If I played fantasy, I'd be pissed.
Way to piss off your loyal fans in favor of getting young Timmy to buy a giant model.

Agreed i've not done much fantasy lately but my 3k ogres and 5k dwarfs and 4k lizards will not be happy with these rumored changes. Its definatly a concern but theres nothing solid yet so no panic, i will be keeping an eye on these though.

 agnosto wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
What if they aren't talking about short runs that sell out in pre-orders in 5 minutes, but kits that are available for a year or so until the next yearly game update? There's a LOT of middle ground between "instant sell-out" and "available forever."

Just wanted to interject that into the conversation. Carry on with the panic.

Yeah, because being told that your entire army is going to be "squatted" is no reason for concern. I've only spend $1500 and countless hours on GW Ogres, there's no reason for me to be upset over them completely invalidating the entire army, is there?

That said, I'm not running around with my hair on fire but at least one of the sources touting this change is a dependable rumormonger which makes me concerned. Call it "panic" if you like. If it's true, why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?

Hey there, chief. My post was pretty obviously in reference to the release schedule component to these rumors.

So lighten the feth up. You have miniatures, I have miniatures, we all have miniatures. And none of us really know what's going to happen. I suspect that even if these rumors come to pass, there will still be a healthy number of people playing 8th edition (or some variant thereof). Especially since organized play is now in the hands of the people instead of the company.