I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Meant to say Dreadclaw, not Assault Claw.

That's a real bunch of points and cash you are going to invest into something that isn't really going to pay off.
Even if you get things there, it's just either killed what, 1 tank or something?Or it's not there. Or there is no real targets for it. Or just died on the spot.

Not to mention IA is not really that common thing to have.

Simple. It's not in the Chaos Space Marine codex. Shouldn't have to buy another book when options should be in the original codex.

Also Forge World is not legal. (Kidding there before some people their knickers in a knot.)

Most people are referring to the main CSM book. Chaos can prop itself up with forgeworld and allies but that doesn't address that the core codex lacks options.

CSM doesn't have any delivery methods. Forgeworld has delivery methods and getting the rules and models from them is more arduous and expensive then normal GW products.

Also the Dreadclaw is not a great delivery system because of how many points they cost. 100 pts per unit that only half of which show up turn 1, doesn't even let them disembark on the turn they arrive, and can still mishap poorly (unlike actual drop pods) is not a great transport.

 dusara217 wrote:
I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

Because I shouldn't be forced to fork over nearly $200+ between exchange rate + shipping + tariffs just to get more rules that many players will refuse to play against because Forgeworld is still a dirty word.

Because the Chaos Marine codex should be able to stand on its own two feet, instead of being the perennial 'have-not' MEQ codex just to keep Loyalist scum happy that they're better than their favourite punching bag.

Dread claws are much weaker than the drop pod and not even in the main rule book, despite drop pods being the main way the legions did battle.

We have the worst land raider variant.

We lack razorbacks.

We don't have a lot of accurate deepstrike. Not outside of allies or fortifications anyone can take.

Simple Answer? Cost. Both points and wallet.

IA13 is vastly superior to the CSM codex on so many levels that playing CSM with is its more or less just playing a forgeworld list with handicaps. While adding things like dread claws can make a list more viable, I'm still dropping $85USD ($230 for Kharybdis) before shipping and customs for something that is going to be used to transport something that may just DS off the table.

If I'm dropping that chunk of change on something, I rather get a lord of skulls, or a couple heldrakes, or really anything that looks cool and is just fun to paint since it's probably gonna just sit on a shelf forever anyway. Like everything from the CSM codex.

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Meant to say Dreadclaw, which is more of a flying rhino that can DS turn 1 than a legit drop pod.

Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World. You just have to be a little bit patient.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World. You just have to be a little bit patient.

Cost is a completely fair argument for us discount warriors.

A dreadclaw is a drop pod, for 3x the price and without mishap protection.

Doesn't seem so good to me.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Also the Dreadclaw is not a great delivery system because of how many points they cost. 100 pts per unit that only half of which show up turn 1, doesn't even let them disembark on the turn they arrive, and can still mishap poorly (unlike actual drop pods) is not a great transport.

Why can't they disembark on the turn they arrive? The only restriction I can see is that they can't assault.

 dusara217 wrote:
I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Meant to say Dreadclaw, not Assault Claw.

Using your examples, a Dreadclaw is something like 100 points with mishaps, a drop pod is 35. Our Helbrutes cost the same (I think) as our Loyalist counterparts, but 2 A less.

Using 2x4 Chosen in 2 Dreadclaws is the equivalent to 130 points more, and I might mishap. Helbrute in a Dreadclaw? Why would we? We can take the Mayhem Pack to begin with, giving them IWND and Deep Strike, though the enemy will just pick them apart one by one, though it can be fun.

We do have better Rhinos mind. Daemonic possession, havok launchers, dirge casters... But we don't get the Rhino for free.

And let's be honest, Gladius Strike Force is what we don't have. I played against one at 1650pt (tourney list, so expecting it). It had roughly 350 points of transports for free. I had a 1650pt CSM army, he had a 2000pt SM army. I'm not wailing against my opponent, I wouldn't expect anything less from a tourney list - CSMs are the handicapped ones. Which is why I'm switching to 30k as I'm now 0/1/16 in W/D/L over the past months against good lists.

We have delivery methods, just that they are more expensive. Way more expensive.

To the detractors of the Dreadclaw, remember that it is a flyer with hover and assault vehicle. It is a very good tool for Chaos Marines to use. After deep striking in a safe place, take a turn of shooting with jink then move up and assault your target the next turn.

 Intercessor wrote:
To the detractors of the Dreadclaw, remember that it is a flyer with hover and assault vehicle. It is a very good tool for Chaos Marines to use. After deep striking in a safe place, take a turn of shooting with jink then move up and assault your target the next turn.

Exactly. We want a delivery method, not necessarily all the other stuff.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Meant to say Dreadclaw, which is more of a flying rhino that can DS turn 1 than a legit drop pod.

Which will also eat your Helbrute albeit for less pts.

I love how they apparently felt removing the drop pod's inertial guidance and making it cost 3x as much wasn't sufficient. No, they couldn't resist adding one extra kick in the nuts by making it eat your own guys. Because Chaos! feth you! What's this? I'm deep striking? Turn 1? Is this the real life? Am I still playing Chaos here? Oops, it ate my warlord! Yeah that's more like it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Forgeworld may be easily accessible in Europe, especially if you already live in the UK. Not all of us do however, and there's no way in hell I'm forking over what could easily be half of an entirely new army just for the book itself, let alone then forking over even more for models that are nothing more than 'Loyalist -10' versions in every way.

I'll gladly drop $200 on my Chaos armies sure. But for stuff that I actually think looks good and will enjoy building/painting. I'm not spending that on a damn book just because GW can't be arsed to give Chaos the same treatment that Loyalists get.

csm like orks live for cc, unlike the orks who have open topped on all the things (or assault vehicle, except for that accursed gorkanaut/morkanaut) for an absolutely bottom barrel price. the chaos marines have only the khrybdis, the dreadclaw assuming it lives long enough, and raiders.

their hopelessly immobile over their normal marine counterparts who have things like the storm raven and the stormwolf, and let us not forget the razorback and drop pod.

you pale next to even dark angels whom by comparison move at warp speed

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Forgeworld may be easily accessible in Europe, especially if you already live in the UK. Not all of us do however, and there's no way in hell I'm forking over what could easily be half of an entirely new army just for the book itself, let alone then forking over even more for models that are nothing more than 'Loyalist -10' versions in every way.

Pure hyperbole on the prices, unless you somehow get a massive discount on your standard models.

I'll gladly drop $200 on my Chaos armies sure. But for stuff that I actually think looks good and will enjoy building/painting. I'm not spending that on a damn book just because GW can't be arsed to give Chaos the same treatment that Loyalists get.

Then play loyalists and paint them black and spiky, if the loyalists are so much better anyway.

Chaos players have to buy Imperial kits because laughably, our own kits tend to be missing half or more of our possible options and/or the existing kit is unusable...

You want 4x Autocannon Havocs?
Well, you can either buy four $50 sets and thus be forced to fork over $200 for just the 4 guys you want, OR, you can buy 2 Loyalist Devatator kits and convert them from the Heavy bolters, while also getting your Missile launchers + Lascannons in plastic instead of Finecrap.

You want Termiecide?
Enjoy your kit that includes just 1 combi-melta/flamer (and is entirely missing the combi-plasma!), or buy 3 Termie Lords for a 'cheap' $30/model unit. Or else buy Imperial bitz and convert.
Hell, even functional Terminator squads are better off bought using Imperial kits and then slapping a bunch of Chaos icons onto them, simply because our own kit is missing so many basic options!

You want Chosen?
Sorry, those don't exist yet. Enjoy buying a basic Chaos Marine kit and then adding on something like Sternguard/Vanguard to get access to almost every single one of your unit's actual options!

You want your Hellbrute to have a Heavy flamer (or two)?
Yep, buy Imperial, because GW conveniently "forgot" to give us that option, despite a brand new kit that finally replaced the old early 90's clunker.

This is the "Chaos Tax". We have to routinely supplement large swaths of our model line with Imperial stuff and/or go through Forgeworld, because GW refuses to treat us as equals when compared to our 'perfect' Imperial overlords.



As for Forgeworld prices outside of the UK... You still have to pay their factored exchange rate.
Then there's general shipping charges.
There's also tariffs and import charges, of which different countries have different rates.

It was great when the GW stores at least carried the Imperial Armour books in-store, as we could just pay the basic price of the book itself and skip out on the added charges, which could easily balloon to double the price of the book itself! (at the time, I was paying roughly $90-110 per book)
Now though, since they've stopped that, Forgeworld has gone back to being nothing more than a pure 'perk', which for many people becomes a choice between starting/expanding an army, or else just having a shiny book.

Besides, I need enough books as it is, and for their cost, I don't want to be lugging my FW books about for fear that careless/less respectful individuals will damage them. (I've had enough damage done to my basic codices thank-you very much! )

I have an army list that features a Spartan, land raider and at least one Dreadclaw. It works very well. There is a KDK component which has the dogstar and synergizes well.

As someone who gets 25 percent off at his FLGS, buys off ebay or takes advantage off amazons random discounts, Forge world is something that would not only cost a lot more than a standard model due to conversion rate, but shipping it to the US is also far more expensive. As an American standard citadel miniatures and forgeworld are not comparative in price.

Second, Chaos space marines are a book that should be able to stand up on it's own two feet with out crutches. I love forgeworld on the table top but once you get to the point where two or three books are not a choice to play something cool but a bare minimum to be competitive, something is wrong.

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Eldar Frigate slammed two torpedoes into our side, Chief. We was comin' back from the planet of Cadia to the Eye... just delivered the Gate. The Warp Gate. Eleven hundred marines went into the void. Cruiser went down in 12 minutes. Didn't see the first Eldar for about a half an hour. Pheonix. Thirteen hundred footer. You know... you know that when you're in the void, chief? You tell by lookin' from the nose to the tail. Well, we didn't know... 'cause our mission had been so secret, no distress signal had been sent, huh. Abaddon didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light, chief. The Corsairs come cruisin'.

Chaos pay for their delivery, but codex marines get free postage and packaging!

They are viable but of course you know about leading a horse to the water...

Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

nareik wrote:
Chaos pay for their delivery, but codex marines get free postage and packaging!

^---- basically this. That and I'm also one of those people who thinks you should have everything you'll need in one book rather than carry around a small library just to play your army (coughnidscough)

DaPino wrote:
Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

It doesn't actually do that though.

Yeah, it does.

DaPino wrote:
Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

Have you ever used them? I have and they work just fine for me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

Have you ever used them? I have and they work just fine for me.

Oh don't get me wrong, they do work. I have a dreadclaw and use it regularly. However, the fact remains that it's inferior to a regular drop pod in its use as a delivery and it costs trice the price.
There's a big difference between "it doesn't work" (which I'm not claiming) and "other armies get stuff that's infinitely better for 1/3rd of the price".

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Gladius Strike Force. As I mentioned earlier, at 1650 pt a SM army can take 350 points worth of transports.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Gladius Strike Force. As I mentioned earlier, at 1650 pt a SM army can take 350 points worth of transports.

Actually, I was referring more to how we get to buy a bunch of Imperial kits, and/or have to fork over for FW upgrade packs, on top of our basic grunts just to build playable units.

Consider for example a staple choice of 5 Havocs w/4x Autocannons, which we can:
1. Buy 4 Havoc sets for $200 because they're ancient Finecrap and only come with an unplayable 1/each weapon per box. (and no Champion options to boot!)

2. Buy a basic Chaos Marine kit + Space Marine Devastators + plastic tubing and convert 2 from the Dev kit's Heavy bolters

3. Buy a basic Chaos Marine kit + FW Autocannon upgrade pack.

Hence, having to pay the "Chaos Tax"

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

@ dapino
Dreadclaw is vastly superior to a drop pod so of course it costs more points.

Is it 3x superior?
Not really.

Easily more than 2x .

I would drop the easily, but that's my opinion of course.
Losing the guidance system and launcher makes it slightly better. Maybe 1.5x

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you disembark from a transport. This specific rule overrides that general restriction.

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you arrive from Deep Strike. This specific rule doesn't say anything that overrides that general restriction.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you disembark from a transport. This specific rule overrides that general restriction.

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you arrive from Deep Strike. This specific rule doesn't say anything that overrides that general restriction.

Yeah, it's the same case as a reserve Land Raider the vehicle allows you to assault the same turn you disembark but since you entered from reserves that turn you are not allowed to.

The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Probably it is, that is not how it is written thou. Specially looking at how they redacted the skyhammer formation which specifically takes care of the reserve/assault problem.

The khadrabyss is crazy expensive thou, both in $ and points. So I've never seen anyone use it, there it is thou.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

The HfB rule specifically states they can assault. It's very clear.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The HfB rule specifically states they can assault. It's very clear.

Can they also charge after running?

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.


The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

When people started 10 years ago, it was not, a codex was 25$, an infantry box was 28$ and the largest kit in the game was 50$.

Luxury?, its fething plastic toys, it should not be sold at the same price as cocaine or gold.

And that "if you're solvent for 40k, you're solvent for FW" bullcrap, no, just no, some people like to play games and like to play 40k, but they are not neccesarly "solvent", i know people that had to make choices and sacrifices to be able to keep up till a certain point, until they couldn't anymore.

I know people who just wants to play with their friends at a game, without having to sink in 1000$.

That glorified " its a luxury" attitude is whats wrong with the hobby, and its whats conforts GW in thinking that they can price hike like they want, since people think its normal, its not.

If you have money to waste, good for you, not everyone has this chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Easily more than 2x .

A dreadclaw should cost 65-70pts, it would be our "razorback" level of transport, 100pts is too much, for too little, 60-ish points was the sweetspot that people where willing to overlook.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

So you're just deciding it doesn't count because you decided that they didn't read the rules for the Claw. Got it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

So you're just deciding it doesn't count because you decided that they didn't read the rules for the Claw. Got it.

No, I'm deciding it doesn't allow charge from Deep Strike because of the words that they actually wrote. The above is me trying to figure out what they meant to write and why.

If you read the actual rule is explicitly states they can charge.

People need to stop comparing the points cost of a drop pod and a Dreadclaw. Ones a flyer with hover and assault vehicle, one is a brick that goes pew pew after it lands.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you read the actual rule is explicitly states they can charge.

Can they also run before they charge?

Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

Well, the CSM codex provides delivery by Rhinos and ancient Landraiders. The game is more a shooty game atm. So delivery could also mean delivery of a shooty unit.
CSM have access to bikes and Spawn which are quite fast.

 Intercessor wrote:
People need to stop comparing the points cost of a drop pod and a Dreadclaw. Ones a flyer with hover and assault vehicle, one is a brick that goes pew pew after it lands.

The primary problem is that the extra capability is neither desired nor needed. The base model drop pod offers the utility that CSM players are really seeking, at a third of the cost, while the ability of the Dreadclaw to take off and fly again, for 3x the cost, doesn't really add much for the units in question.

Spartan Assault Tank. Expensive but the most durable vehicle outside of superheavies and can drop a full squad of Berserkers, Terminators or basically any squad, plus characters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

However, CSM has no premium assault squad.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

However, CSM has no premium assault squad.

They do indeed such as Berserkers which are awesome. It is just no one ever uses them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Rhinos are OK, but I also want drop pods.

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well.

The shear nerve of those filty chaos players. How dare they. [/sarcasm]

 sfshilo wrote:
IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

a) what about places that don't allow FW? I don't think there is much debate that IA13 is great though, but it's out of reach for some and flat out banned for others.
b) Dirge casters enable assault, which is generally something chaos wants, however, we have no method to get our guys into a position to be able to assault without taking a land raider, which is pointless due to D, haywire and grav all not giving a flying ... monsterous creature about AV14. That's kinda the point that the chaos players are making here. Your assault choices are as follows;

X in a land raider. Land raiders are bad, Mmkay? 230 points for a godhammer is not good, but it does allow for turn 2 charges. 230 points is a lot though, and still only capacity 10. Why chaos doesn't have more raider variants I will never understand. It can sort of work on the odd occassion where your opponent can't deal with AV14 at range for whatever reason. Unfortunately, X is also generally bad because CSM got the short end of the stick.
X in a rhino. Can't charge out of the rhino, have to stand around like a chump getting shot, turn 3 charge at the earliest since you need to flat out turn 1, disembark turn 2 (or move/be pinned since the rhino almost certainly got destroyed), then, and only then after 2 turns of getting shot can you attempt to charge.

And that's the only transport options we have. Is there any wonder that people complain that we have no delivery options when you look at the amount of assault focused units that are basically foot slogging infantry that need a transport to function?

And now onto the self propelled assault options;
Raptors - Mark of nurgle virtually mandatory to avoid getting gunned down by small arms fire, Still just jump troopers though, so will get mowed down since you need to survive 2-3 turns of shooting and not terribly killy even if they get there
Warp Talons - All the same issues as raptors plus they have no grenades and cost twice as much. One of the worst units in the dex.
Spawn - Mark of Nurgle still mandatory unless you need to attach a non-MoN IC, fast, durable and punchy enough, these guys do OK (note, no delivery system involved)
Maulerfiends - AV12 isn't great and neither is WS3, but relatively (for chaos) cheap and very fast is (note, no delivery system involved)
Defilers - Still WS3 and AV12, but slow and at almost twice the cost as a maulerfiend for +1 HP. No, just no. Can theoretically deep strike, but massive model + no scatter mitigation = bad times.
Mutilators - Slow and purposeful on a unit with no guns. MoN still mandatory and while DS is nice, we have no scatter reduction and 61 points per model for a combat unit that will never see combat is not great, despite what some people will try and tell you.
Bikers - T5 naturally, MoN still virtually mandatory due to how good +1T is and the proliferation of high strength rapid fire guns, though MoS gets a look in due to the FNP banner. Can jink, so has some protection against AP1/2/3 guns, not overly killy unfortunately without an attached character. Not troops unlike 2 of the big 4 (SM and Eldar) and pale in comparison to tomb blades (necrons).again, note that there is no delivery mechanism involved.
Terminators - Can be made to be killy in CC at a cost, but now kited out the same as vanilla marines, are actually more expensive with worse rules. Can deep strike, but again, we don't get teleport homers for some reason, and no way to reduce scatter. No pods to come down turn 1 either, so it's a turn 3 charge at the earliest, and that requires that you don't fail to come in on time (3 of the big 4 have reserve modification warlords), don't scatter, opponent doesn't have interceptor (hello IA, EWO riptide) and is stupid enough to stand around while you mill about waiting to assault them.

Yes, undoubtedly someone will bring up the dimensional key, but considering you realistically won't get into combat before turn 2, not only are 2/3rds of your forces coming down with no benefit, those that do still can't charge out of DS, so assuming you do come down after it's activated on turn 2, that's a turn 3 arrival and a turn 4 assault. You've got 2 turns to achieve something while the rest of your army has been playing at a disadvantage 'cause you've been cooling your heels waiting around for some guy to open a door.

Chaos has the best msu??
Someone has never heard of scatbikes.

There's ever such a blurry area between FW and 'regular' 40k. I'm fine with it but it's more the element of the unknown taking you by surprise and causing you to lose the game. Your opponent might not be happy with it and some tournaments might not allow it. FW is also extortionately expensive, there are of course 'other ways' to obtain the rules and models but they aren't for everyone.

CSM is a bad codex, but you can build a very strong army with IA13 as well. One of my friends uses a Summoning Sorcerer, triple Heldrake, triple Fire Raptor, Dreadclaw, bunker+ comms relay list and it's brutal.

I love forgeworld and allies because it allows for some very fluffy and fun lists. I love being able to bring in an assassin or inquisitor or some guard to help out my space marines. That said no faction, especially one as important to the background as Chaos Space Marine should need additional books to even be passable. One on one even if i'm not trying to make a tough list standard marines are just better

Akiasura wrote:
Chaos has the best msu??
Someone has never heard of scatbikes.

Or Gladius Strike Force...

Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

You really think thousand sons stand up to scatter bikes, grav bikes, skitarii infantry or sternguard ?

Please tell me the above is sarcasm.

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

10/10 would get trolled again

Akiasura wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

10/10 would get trolled again

I'm actually tempted by this to post up my "rumors" about the forthcoming stealth CSM overhaul...

Sad thing is, at least half of it's probably somewhat accurate too!

To me the most fun armies are made from multiple sources. I guess some people still don't get it.

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

They have a lot going for them.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To me the most fun armies are made from multiple sources. I guess some people still don't get it.

A lot of people don't want to *have* to use multiple sources. It's nice having the *option*, but when getting a viable army requires the Codex, FW, and a supplement, and running three detachments, it feels janky (and, at least in my opinion, it *is* really janky).

Personally, as multi-source as I want to get is Codex faction plus Forgeworld. If I'm having to include multiple *factions* in an army, it feels like munchkining, and I usually perceive it as such with other people's armies unless it's very well thought out and integrated, and usually it really is just munchkining.

I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

I didn't say it wasn't the game, however, adapting means playing something that I have no desire to play and no longer having, what I consider, a coherent force simply because the rules no longer attempt to pretend to adhere to any sort of background that underpins the game. Meanwhile letting it go means fewer players for games and smaller events and fewer opponents for the game, which has been evident in many playgroups for some time.

CSM can be very good with Daemons, but then such armies are usually built with almost no actual CSM's and don't fit the background for huge swathes of background factions.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

Hence why you always see Belakor and that minimum unit of Cultsits...

Daemons end up better off with no CSM's in their army.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

This type of attitude to me comes off as elitist and arrogant, and helps to only poison the community as a whole...
"This is the game now" is purely only true if all you care about is "winning", such as in "Tournament" environments. And I daresay, at least half of the lists you see cropping up at those kinds of events are in reality horrible fluff nightmares that owe little to the actual background of the faction(s) involved.

The vast majority of games that are played however, are most certainly not those types of mega competitive stomp fests.
So while yes, sometimes it's fun to ally Marines & Daemons, or Daemons & Renegades, or all three, etc... into the same list. But then equally, it's also just as fun to just occasionally run an actual Chaos Marine army!

Unfortunately, Chaos Marines have been so badly neglected by GW that it's become pretty much impossible to play them on their own, and shockingly include actual (gasp!) Chaos Marines as the meat of the force!
Because apparently, we're still being punished for the sins of the 3.5 codex, and having the sheer audacity to win the Eye of Terror campaign.

If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

Sure, because it so much 'fun' just scooping up your entire army by the 3rd turn, while having killed maybe a dozen enemy models at best...

It's true that in today's game, T4/3+ predominantly on foot is terribad. While Loyalists get ways around this problem, (*cough*DropPodsBikeTroopsFreeRazorbacks*cough*), Chaos not only gets to pay more, point-for-point per model, but then we're also stuck with just Rhinos & a non-functioning Land Raider.

Chaos Marines on their own just don't have any real killing power outside of a couple cookie-cutter builds. (and not everyone wants to go Nurgle!)

Even against other equally 'tame' lists, Chaos Marines that aren't Nurgle suffer badly.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

Sure, because it so much 'fun' just scooping up your entire army by the 3rd turn, while having killed maybe a dozen enemy models at best...

It's true that in today's game, T4/3+ predominantly on foot is terribad. While Loyalists get ways around this problem, (*cough*DropPodsBikeTroopsFreeRazorbacks*cough*), Chaos not only gets to pay more, point-for-point per model, but then we're also stuck with just Rhinos & a non-functioning Land Raider.

Chaos Marines on their own just don't have any real killing power outside of a couple cookie-cutter builds. (and not everyone wants to go Nurgle!)

Even against other equally 'tame' lists, Chaos Marines that aren't Nurgle suffer badly.

If you aren't having run because your opponent's list is too powerful, then ask them to tone it down. Though it is ironic that you are uncompromisingly insisting on playing mono-Chaos, and yet are surprised when your opponent is equally uncompromising in their build.

The claim that you are stuck to Land Raiders and Razorbacks is patently false, as demonstrated by the lists if other transports in this thread.

Using Forge World units is somehow not playing Mono-CSM or anything - they are still CSM units that can be taken in a single CAD with regular dex units. Some of them are even dedicated transports, iirc.

Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The claim that you are stuck to Land Raiders and *Rhinos* is patently false, as demonstrated by the lists if other transports in this thread.

Using Forge World units is somehow not playing Mono-CSM or anything - they are still CSM units that can be taken in a single CAD with regular dex units. Some of them are even dedicated transports, iirc.

The whole "patently false" is arguably subjective on a player by player, or perhaps local meta by local meta, basis.

Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff (and that's only starting to be okay thanks to Betrayal at Calth), so IF i bothered to drop money on FW goodies for my CSM (I admit the chance of this is extremely low as I only buy things at a discount and the last time I saw anything FW on discount was somewhere between "the 7th of Never through to thee 15th of Ain't Gonna Happen"), chances are that no one would play me except my brother and it would end up being a dust collector on the shelf.

Thus, in order to get games in my area - casual or competitive, I am stuck with what is available in the CSM codex. Well, more like whatever is available through the GW website so yes, allies included, but even then I still feel a sense of wanting with Chaos.

That's your own group's fault then. Nothing from FW is absurdly broken, or if anything fixes things that needed to be fixed (Land Raiders are JUNK, so take a Spartan instead, etc).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's your own group's fault then. Nothing from FW is absurdly broken, or if anything fixes things that needed to be fixed (Land Raiders are JUNK, so take a Spartan instead, etc).

I'm well aware of that BUT the point was there are legitimate reasons for individual players not finding the FW route being a worthy expenditure I.E. having no incentive to purchase FW due to the local meta being one of those that frowns upon the use of FW.

Thus telling such players to use forgeworld products to solve their problems is NOT a viable solution.

Of course you're correct that one shouldn't have to jump to FW to fix problems and it should just be more of an expansion.

Lord knows I've tried several to get the codex workable...

Seems like we are going in circles but largely agree on one thing. The CSM codex by itself is not a good book and can't stand up to even moderate lists of the 7.5 codexes with out a lot of crutches.

The only prenecron book that seems to have aged well is chaos demons.

@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

100% this.

That is the biggest atrocity of the book. The fact that people go out of their way to avoid the main unit you should be playing the army to use.

Chaos Marines are supposed to play very similarly to the way that Space Wolves play. They are a close quarters MEQ army that relies on marines as midfield support for heavy hitting Close Combat hero's. The big difference between Chaos Marines and Space Wolves is that Chaos Marines have only 2 transports (in codex) and Space Wolves have 8 (5 of which are assault transports) and the Wolves also got thunderwolf cav before Chaos got Skullcrushers (lol). Space Wolves have all the tools they need to make their army work, Chaos simply does not. The only Assault transport available to Chaos is the worst variant of Land Raider that has a pitiful transport capacity and is severely overcosted. It can't even carry a basic unit of 5 Terminators + a Hero in Terminator armour, not that you ever would on a competitive level, but you know it would be nice.

Chaos simply is not equipped with the tools it needs to make much of their army function properly, it's an extremely ponderous army in an edition where everything is super fast and super hard hitting.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

And that's the sad sad truth. If my CSM buddy just wants a beer-and-pretzels fight he'll use CSM, but if it's a serious battle he really can't take more than a (fully powered-up) CSM Sorcerer and maybe five Chosen as bodyguards for the big kahoona.

I cant believe this thread is even a thing...

What other army requires a massive middle finger from GW and a directional map to FW in order to compete on any level other than plebian? The answer is none aside Chaos Soace Marines.

Telling anyone else otherwise is a direct indication of how sadly imature and in denial one is. CSM being literally the only faction you cannot gain basic forms of vehicles like LRCs, allowed within the faction, but without a $250 unvestment of a FW book makes it unusable. Let alone the model you have to convert due to GW BS.

So lets get into it then...

Oh suuure we can sink anither 300ish dollars into the Chaos Faction through FW for basic rules to a faction that "has access" to these models but otherwise cannot use. We could do this and gain access to formations that allow us basic privileges like making our models and units "Decent" and pretend like theyre well thought out and play tested. We COULD, but do YOU have to with your army? No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store? That must be nice. Because i had to buy my extra book, buy my extra models and use additional rules just compete with even basic army books. This may be an expensive hobby, but your head is far up your own ass if you think people who play a certain army should be ostracized into having to fork over MORE just to play against little Timmy and his FOTM Eldar

To be fair as an occasional Ork player the prospects arn't much better.

 King Pariah wrote:
Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff

Well that's a problem with your fellow players, not the rules provided by GW. This is no more reasonable than complaining about how your C:SM army doesn't have any transports because you have a house rule that vehicles are banned. Instead of blaming GW for the actions of your fellow players try asking them to stop being TFGs?

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store?

Nope. My armored company IG army requires additional rulebooks and models I can't buy from my local GW store (not that any sane person would ever voluntarily go to a GW store). I suppose I could make a crude approximation of the army with the new campaign book, but that's still buying additional rulebooks and I wouldn't be able to use some of my models. And god help you if you play SoB, your models are all online-only and your codex is OOP.

As someone who is usually pro GW. The above is both bad business and bad design. Telling someone who started any army that if they want to be able to play at a mid level of compitition that they need need two more books and dozens of resin models is stupid.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
As someone who is usually pro GW. The above is both bad business and bad design. Telling someone who started any army that if they want to be able to play at a mid level of compitition that they need need two more books and dozens of resin models is stupid.

Welcome to 7th edition. "Here's a new book that you have to buy to keep up with everyone else" is GW's standard business model. If your army doesn't have a book or three yet it's only because GW hasn't had a release slot for them yet.

I find the above untrue. Look at the top four. Eldar Marines Necrons and Tau don't need any supplements. They benefit from them, but what is arguably the strongest faction in the game, craftworld eldar, only need one book

 Peregrine wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff

Well that's a problem with your fellow players, not the rules provided by GW. This is no more reasonable than complaining about how your C:SM army doesn't have any transports because you have a house rule that vehicles are banned. Instead of blaming GW for the actions of your fellow players try asking them to stop being TFGs?

They never said it was GWs fault, just that it was an example of why someone might not find it worthwhile to go the FW route.

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.

These are different because they're all from within the codex. When you buy a codex, you shouldn't then have to spend more money for books and rules outside the codex for the army to work. If you choose to that's different but it shouldn't be needed for your force to be as playable as other armies just from their one book.

GoliothOnline wrote:I cant believe this thread is even a thing...

What other army requires a massive middle finger from GW and a directional map to FW in order to compete on any level other than plebian? The answer is none aside Chaos Soace Marines.

Telling anyone else otherwise is a direct indication of how sadly imature and in denial one is. CSM being literally the only faction you cannot gain basic forms of vehicles like LRCs, allowed within the faction, but without a $250 unvestment of a FW book makes it unusable. Let alone the model you have to convert due to GW BS.

So lets get into it then...

Oh suuure we can sink anither 300ish dollars into the Chaos Faction through FW for basic rules to a faction that "has access" to these models but otherwise cannot use. We could do this and gain access to formations that allow us basic privileges like making our models and units "Decent" and pretend like theyre well thought out and play tested. We COULD, but do YOU have to with your army? No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store? That must be nice. Because i had to buy my extra book, buy my extra models and use additional rules just compete with even basic army books. This may be an expensive hobby, but your head is far up your own ass if you think people who play a certain army should be ostracized into having to fork over MORE just to play against little Timmy and his FOTM Eldar

I'm assuming that you don't realize that I play Chaos Marines, myself, (it's understandable, I don't mark it out on my profile), so my real issue with this post is that anybody would even dream of buying a non-collectible FW book. You do realize that you can download 99% of GW's (and its subsidiaries') books for free, correct? For instance, by googling "Imperial Armour 13 PDF" when I got curious about it, I was able to download a book within which was a whole lot of units and interesting reading.

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

Dude you play Sistas, you really need a hug or a beer.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

Dude you play Sistas, you really need a hug or a beer.

Lately, I confess, I have used Mechanicum for most of my games.

...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

 Filch wrote:
...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

It is stories like this that make me glad that no army, not even Sisters, is limited to only rhinos.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

Stop talking sense man! We've got the Gorepack which is sooooooo OP!! And we can still spam Heldrakes, and of course, every list ever throws Be'lakor in there to auto-cast Invis every single turn on our super cheesy Str.D Bloodthirster!

Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

Experiment 626 wrote:


Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

You do realize that a bunch of the Chapter Tactics in the Vanilla Codex are much worse than the others, right? I mean, Raven Guard or Black Templars aren't as bad as the worst stuff in the Chaos Codex, but if you're not playing as Ultramarines or White Scars you might as well go home, because those two are leagues ahead of everyone else.

I mean, you complain that Chaos is being unfairly treated (which I agree with, BTW) because you have to jump through hoops to get an army that's half-decent, only to turn around and pretend like every loyalist army is the same. There's some of us over here who aren't exactly pleased with the situation either, with the difference that any complaints are waved off with "but C:SM is GREAT!" instead of "lol just use allies".

I see it's that time of the day where CSM players bash the Loyalists. Fun times.

I find it quite funny to see KDK dismissed. Fielding CSM and Daemons is by no means a crutch. In fact it's super fluffy.

I agree it's fluffy and I don't begrunge any player who does it but if you need allies to make your codex viable than something is wrong with your codex.

I don't think so the way army design works now. We have to work with what we have.

@OP: You are completely right. Dreadclaws rock as transports. IA:13 is an excellent read and a fantastic supplement, as it gives you a new Codex (Lost and the Damned) as well as an entire CSM/ KDK supplement. A fantastic read for lore and for rules. Considering its equivalent in GW books would cost $150 CDN and I just paid $125 including shipping, I'd say I got a bargain.

People say Chaos has no delivery because they'd rather focus on why they can't make a list as powerful as the equivalent in Codex Adeptus Astartes. The reason is simple... This is not Codex Adeptus Astartes.

The debating and arguing is redundant. Those who hate Chaos will never be able to set aside their jealousy to focus on making an effective army with the tools they have, those who love Chaos will have to deal with the cross of being in the minority. That means being ignored and invalidated by logical fallacy.

Those who hate Chaos have three options: play a different army, proxy a different army as Chaos, learn to live with the Chaos codex as it stands.

We don't have the best delivery methods in the game. But we do have them. If you can't win with them, don't use them.

My first army was Eldar, I got up to 750 points and bought the box set (forgot the name, Dark Angels and Chaos) deciding to convert it all to chaos after reading more and more into their fluff. Stylistically, I ended up liking the Chaos Marines more, and after reading, I really liked the idea of a Chaos Space Marine. I continued to collect and play them in a casual environment and while I always felt like the underdog, it was a lot of fun because it was still new to me. Eventually, people started putting stronger units down and it went from fun to my army starting the game like an Ork who forgot how to believe.

Now recently I got the Lost and Damned book and its been awesome. Bunch of conversion work, baths of infantry and artillery rain, but I started not bringing marines. First list was about half of each, then a little less, a little less...

Now, I run a full R&H list, with an allied Crimson Slaughter detachment (Not even basic codex) to grab a buffed out Divination Sorcerer, a squad of CSM with a melta who don't do anything, and an Upgraded Plasma Chosen squad (with preferred enemy) to run deepstrike defense with my artillery.

Its a sad thing to see all those models on a shelf.

To the main arguments here, CSMs suck, plain and simple. Yeah there are other armies that barely have books and we should be grateful we have one, but its really pathetic. There is a clear bias with the armies and that's a real shame, because not only does Chaos suffer (and really, if anyone should be OP, realistically it should be chaos), but Tyranids, Guard, Sisters... the list goes on.

SirSweetroll wrote:
My first army was Eldar, I got up to 750 points and bought the box set (forgot the name, Dark Angels and Chaos) deciding to convert it all to chaos after reading more and more into their fluff. Stylistically, I ended up liking the Chaos Marines more, and after reading, I really liked the idea of a Chaos Space Marine. I continued to collect and play them in a casual environment and while I always felt like the underdog, it was a lot of fun because it was still new to me. Eventually, people started putting stronger units down and it went from fun to my army starting the game like an Ork who forgot how to believe.

Now recently I got the Lost and Damned book and its been awesome. Bunch of conversion work, baths of infantry and artillery rain, but I started not bringing marines. First list was about half of each, then a little less, a little less...

Now, I run a full R&H list, with an allied Crimson Slaughter detachment (Not even basic codex) to grab a buffed out Divination Sorcerer, a squad of CSM with a melta who don't do anything, and an Upgraded Plasma Chosen squad (with preferred enemy) to run deepstrike defense with my artillery.

Its a sad thing to see all those models on a shelf.

To the main arguments here, CSMs suck, plain and simple. Yeah there are other armies that barely have books and we should be grateful we have one, but its really pathetic. There is a clear bias with the armies and that's a real shame, because not only does Chaos suffer (and really, if anyone should be OP, realistically it should be chaos), but Tyranids, Guard, Sisters... the list goes on.

Its the result of a money-driven game system developing in a circular pattern. Space Marines are the starter army for the most part, because they are fairly good (thinking back to likes of late 4th Ed/5th Ed where I started), durable but not Necron level durable, decent stats, decent damage and an easy to play and build army. This results in them ebing the most populous and popular army. As a result sales shoot up and GW invest more time in their range and rules, so in the leap to 6th Ed codex they become even stronger (White Scar bikes, Iron Hand vehicles, Iron Hand Biker Burning Blade Shield Eternal Chapter Masters, etc) and then they become popular not just amongst newbies just starting but amongst veteran and competitive players. So GW upgrades them again and again and the cycle continues. The same thing can be seen in Eldar and Tau, who suddenly become uber-popular and uber-powerful, so sales shoot up and they become even more powerful. Necrons even moreso.

Tyranids or Chaos, as examples, are less popular. Little 12 year olds start with "Good Guy Superhero Space MArines" and don't want to play bad guy villain CSM, because of the like of comic books and mainstream media. So it becomes less popular so the designers focus less on the models and rules, making them less appealing, so as people move on they buy Space Marines to convert instead, or run C:SM as C:CSM for competitiveness and better fluffiness, or just abandon them altogether. Seeing a drop in sales, they consider it less important to sell their unpopular stuff than try to sell new shiny to the people who already own 3 of every Space Marine unit because they are so popular and powerful. Tyranids similarly have suffered as 4th moved into 5th Ed (and Genestealers consolidate rolling through entire Guard parking lots disappeared), and so became less popular. Then the new codex wasn't so great and the most useful units were ones that most people already had (Gaunts) or converted out of existing kits (Carnifex-Tervigon) and so sales dipped. They Grey Knights with ID melee everywhere and psychic defence rolfstomp them and it got worse. Then they got even less powerful as the move into 6th Ed favoured shooting, sales and popularity dropped even more in favour of Tau and their Overwatch and Riptides, Eldar and their Wraithknights, WS Bikers, etc. Its a continuous circle. Sisters know even more of this, and compounded by high prices for a pair of metal models, so sales are so low they don't even have a codex now.
THe more powerful and popular army is, the more exponentially powerful they will become, resulting in a boost to popularity, then a boost to sales, thus another boost in power to boost popularity and boost sales again. Whereas if an army stops being popular it becomes weaker, thus less popular, less sales, and less powerful as a result. The only saving grace is that mid-point armies like Dark Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard, most Space Marine variants like BA, DA, SW and GK, Inquisition, Assassins, and I suppose latest armies like Skitarri, Stormtroopers and Mechanicus, will all stay roughly around the same tier for a long while. But expect Chaos, Tyranids and Sisters to get continually weaker, and Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons and Tau to get exponentially stronger over time.

I can say I enjoy playing Chaos which to me is a lot better option that B & M.

 Kraytirous wrote:
@OP: You are completely right. Dreadclaws rock as transports.

They have their uses. It's hard to say they "rock" however. They're something you might take one or two of in certain instances with specific units (that aren't universally useful, particularly when trying to stick close to the background fluff for the various factions). They don't however offer anything near the utility of normal drop pods or something like a Night Scythe.

People say Chaos has no delivery because they'd rather focus on why they can't make a list as powerful as the equivalent in Codex Adeptus Astartes. The reason is simple... This is not Codex Adeptus Astartes.

Or it's because the Chaos Codex just doesn't have anything near the same capabilities.

The debating and arguing is redundant. Those who hate Chaos will never be able to set aside their jealousy to focus on making an effective army with the tools they have

I think people have figured out what works, the problem is that even when you do that, it just doesn't match up to the capabilities of the competition and you're starting from a severely uneven point. It's not a jealousy thing, it's not a "they can't figure it out thing". The playerbase is simply too large for that to be a realistic thing. We have gobs of data points from event & tournament results that show that CSM armies, particularly those heavily built around actual CSM's, rarely perform well at all.

those who love Chaos will have to deal with the cross of being in the minority. That means being ignored and invalidated by logical fallacy.

Those who hate Chaos have three options: play a different army, proxy a different army as Chaos, learn to live with the Chaos codex as it stands.

Why would somebody who hates Chaos bother player them...?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

No, we cannot. We can monobuild with MoN Spawn, Obliterators, Bikers, and a winged DP with Black Mace. Our Heldrakes are good too. So we saddle up 2x10 Cultists at the back. Take a look at any tournament, and if CSMs appear in the top rankings at all, it'll almost always be as 10 Cultists and a winged MoN Daemon Prince with the Black Mace allied detachment to Daemons (or LatD).

Then notice how there's no normal CSMs being taken - only MoN bikers. There are no Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror.

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Best MSU spam? Seriously? No, we do not. Gladius Strike Forces and Eldar scatterspam/Warp Spiders are dominating.

IA 13 gives us Fire Raptors, which is a slightly beefier Heldrake, and Sicarans helped. It didn't give us what we needed in the current meta though, which is cheap, reliable delivery. Our rhinos are good though, and the dirge caster is good. Issue is there's nothing to put in them, and we don't get them for free - see the Gladius Strike Force and Filch below for details. I played a SM army with 500 points more than me at 1650 at a tournament last weekend due to those free transports - he had almost 1/3 more points than me.

 Filch wrote:
...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.

Wanting a codex to stand on its own two power-armoured feet isn't arbitrary.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

No, we cannot. We can monobuild with MoN Spawn, Obliterators, Bikers, and a winged DP with Black Mace. Our Heldrakes are good too. So we saddle up 2x10 Cultists at the back. Take a look at any tournament, and if CSMs appear in the top rankings at all, it'll almost always be as 10 Cultists and a winged MoN Daemon Prince with the Black Mace allied detachment to Daemons (or LatD).

Then notice how there's no normal CSMs being taken - only MoN bikers. There are no Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror.

And such a sad, sad truth this is... Loyalist players still whine endlessly that their Tacticals are the game's worst Troops choice. As a Chaos player who absolutely hates Nurgle, I seriously wish I had a Troops choice like Tacticals for my Tzeentch Marines!

Chaos Marines themselves are easily the single worst models currently in the game. They bring nothing to the table, except making it easier for your opponent to thrash you senseless.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Best MSU spam? Seriously? No, we do not. Gladius Strike Forces and Eldar scatterspam/Warp Spiders are dominating.

IA 13 gives us Fire Raptors, which is a slightly beefier Heldrake, and Sicarans helped. It didn't give us what we needed in the current meta though, which is cheap, reliable delivery. Our rhinos are good though, and the dirge caster is good. Issue is there's nothing to put in them, and we don't get them for free - see the Gladius Strike Force and Filch below for details. I played a SM army with 500 points more than me at 1650 at a tournament last weekend due to those free transports - he had almost 1/3 more points than me.

Obvious Troll is bloody obvious!

Chaos Marines on their own are only 'the best' at being everyone else's favourite punching bag;
- Our MSU is terrible.
- Our unique Chaos psychic lores are the game's outright worst by a mile. (and they're barely half a lore to boot!)
- Our shooting phase is better than only Chaos Daemons, which is saying something!
- Our assault units have no viable delivery method within our own codex.
- The only mark of relevance that exists is Nurgle, and occasionally MoK on a Jugger Lord for the AoBF option.

Even in non-competitive games, it's just badly obvious just how far behind the curve Chaos Marines are. We're playing 5th edition's Rhino Rush with units & wargear that's still paying 3rd/4th edition pricing!
Only an would ever accuse Chaos Marines built from just the codex itself as being "good", let alone competitive or (despite Loyalist claims) OP!

 ChazSexington wrote:
Wanting a codex to stand on its own two power-armoured feet isn't arbitrary.

Well, according to Loyalists, it's simply not allowed for Chaos, because... "reasons".

We've been stuck eating the same crusty old poop sandwich since 2007, but apparently all we really need to do is buy Heldrakes + FW and "git gud/L2Plolz!"

To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

Combat Squads makes their Special + Heavy weapon loadouts function though, as the 5 dudes w/Special + matching Combi-weapon can race about in their free Razorback while the 5 grunts w/Heavy weapon sit in the backfield and camp an objective with Obsec.
Plus they get the added bonuses of 'And They Shall Know No Fairness', Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics, etc... for a whopping 1pt more than a basic Chaos Marine! You starting actually putting any upgrades beyond a single Plasma + Combi-Plasma onto those Chaos Marines, (let alone the fact that those Loyalist dogs can now spam the godly Grav options!), and it's outright laughable how bad they are in comparison.

Sure Tacticals are about as average as average can be, but they're not actual garbage. Not when Chaos Marines exist!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

You can just take 2 5 man Tactical Squads instead for better MSU spam and 2 Specials for the exact same price. And, if you are playing Salamanders you get an extra Master Crafted weapon because you have an extra Sergeant, who can also get a Combi-weapon. So you ccould actually get 2 specials and 2 combis instead of 1 special, one combi and 1 heavy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

That's because 30k has a pricing system that makes 2 half-sized squads cost more than a full sized squad by about 50 points before upgrades.

For CSMs you pay the same points for the last 10 guys as you do for the middle 5, and those last 10 don't even unlock an option (special/heavy weapons) like the 5 do!

nareik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

Please tell me weren't not about to head down the road of claiming that Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's... For the love of all that's unholy, let's not open this can of worms!

Experiment 626 wrote:

nareik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

Please tell me weren't not about to head down the road of claiming that Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's... For the love of all that's unholy, let's not open this can of worms!

Not at all! My apologies for giving this impression, no matter how unintended it was! I was just jumping on the tangent of changes to tac marines, as it frustrates me they are fluffed/modelled as having combat knives but they don't get the benefit of them in game. Being forced into imagining them punching things with a bolt pistol having forgotten all their scout training for combat knife melee really Fractures the Narrative.

Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's.

OH GOD HE'S CRAZY

Tactical squads are pretty much garbage unless you are running the demi-company formation. I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

Seriously? There's a difference between choosing to play an army that is Forgeworld exclusive, therefore you go in knowing that everything you buy is going t be at the price of platinum bling, and choosing to play one of the base armies - and one of the foundation armies of the game, no less - and then finding out that you have to buy a bunch of ultra-expensive stuff just to make a solid army, not to mention that to play some of your base units you have to shell out so much extra money that people playing other armies don't have to. Especially when, as noted multiple times here, so many of the other base armies get everything they need right in their main book and as regular kits to boot. Forgeworld should be a nice boost or extra bump for the army you choose to play, not the only way to get something necessary to play your army. This is one of the reasons I haven't touched my models in months; when I started playing I made the mistake of playing armies that looked cool and bought Nids and CSM . Now to play those armies with any chance of not just getting blown off the table I either have to have multiple books and premium model kits or ask my opponent to intentionally nerf his or her lists. Whether or not I can afford it, I refuse to play into GW's stupidity on this and buy their ultra-premium toys just to have moderately competitive armies.

I'm really glad to have FW available to draw from for my Chaos armies. It's a huge boost for CSM.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm really glad to have FW available to draw from for my Chaos armies. It's a huge boost for CSM.

I'm sorry that you missed my point. If only it were just a nice boost or bump I'd have no issue, but it's not; it's a necessary option for them to be relatively playable and that's not acceptable. not to mention the options still aren't as good as what shows up in other regular codices.

It is acceptable for me... plus I have always loved Forge World.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

This is either 10/10 trolling or this guy is a real dummy.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

This is not true at all. Just look at a kit like the IK .

yea these days forge world and GW arn't that different in price for many things. The main extra cost for FW is shipping.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

This is not true at all. Just look at a kit like the IK .

Uh the imperial knight is a prime example of how i'm right. I will prove that now.

Imperial knight is $140 full retail...I will get an 20% discount so that will come down to $112.......I will not have to pay any taxes and shipping will be 5 bucks. cool. $117.


Let's see how much one of the lower tier knights from forgeworld will cost me. lets go with the QUESTORIS KNIGHT MAGAERA, the cheapest one they have. It's $164 after exchange. I will get no discount. I actually logged into forgeworld so that I could see the tax and shipping fees: $39.71. Pretty insane honestly.


So lets review....

GW: $117
Forgeworld: $203.71


that's a 74% mark up. Honestly, that's probably a higher mark up than the difference between a Toyota Camry and a IS-250, lol.

So basically, you are wrong.

To be fair your paying getting a 20 percent discount out of no wear.

Even without the 20% discount, it's a ~45% markup.

That's still a sizable amount.

GW really should start allowing stores to get FW units directly. If you factored out shipping costs it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Isn't there like a 20% VAT tax included in the FW price? I had heard you can actually get that refunded by customs or whatever if you travel there and buy it in person. But if you buy it through the webstore even though you're paying the tax markup they aren't actually required to collect tax on the pirchase so they just pocket the difference. It's basically a negative 20% discount. And that's on top of shipping.

The FW Knight is vastly superior in terms of the model. The nice thing about the plastic kit is it's easy to magnetize for different builds.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

Stop talking sense man! We've got the Gorepack which is sooooooo OP!! And we can still spam Heldrakes, and of course, every list ever throws Be'lakor in there to auto-cast Invis every single turn on our super cheesy Str.D Bloodthirster!

Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

And thats coming from a guy that plays Eldar bikespam and knights and 8 Drop pods Salamenders list.

Each time i've got commentaries like " of course, i knew it would go down like this" when i killed 2 guys in CC or succeded on a FnP roll...

In his opinion Hounds are waaaay OP and we CSM players should stop complain about that we don't have Legion rules, when we can simply use HH lists..., this resulted in a Headache driven argument for a good half-hour, this guy is so dense that he could sink a submarine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:


Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.
.

Dunno if you're trolling or not...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

And yet his list sounded like it was the staple competitive cookie-cutter that pretty much every KDK list is; D-Thirster + min Slaughter Cult + Grinder + as many Gore Packs as pts allow.
The only big, glaring no-show was no Be'lakor for guaranteed Invis to really OP the 'Thirster.

Yes the Daemonkin book is fun, but the only real reason it holds up competitively is because the Gorepack formation made an already undercosted unit (Flesh Hounds) even better, and the D-Thirster & Soul Grinder are among the top units from the Daemon codex itself that get to trade Daemonic Instability for the Fearless. (which is an outright massive buff for those specific units!)
You dial back on the Gorepack(s), and take an HQ other than the D-Thirster, and suddenly the power level of the book vastly decreases.

It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

So one guy had a mix of tactical genius and luck on his rolls in some of the most important games, and suddenly the Codex is fething OP and anybody can do the same?...

He placed 5th, congrats, it really warms my Khorne Worshipper heart, but that doesn't proof or disproof that the codex is not addresing CSM glaring issues.

KDK shouldn't be the answer all and get all answer or solution, because personnaly i'm sick of hearing guys telling me" stop complaining you guys have KDK", yeah because thats mighty relevant when a guy still waits for rules to play Alpha Legion or Word Bearers...

Experiment 626 wrote:
It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

No argument there, but to play devil's advocate many tournament players will simply spam their "top level filth" no matter what the codex is. Min-maxed lists are usually a race to the bottom as far as diversity goes.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
So one guy had a mix of tactical genius and luck on his rolls in some of the most important games, and suddenly the Codex is fething OP and anybody can do the same?...

Obviously not.

How about for 5 points more compared to a juggernaught you can get a thunderwolves with an additional +1 strength, and the complete lack of 2+ saves for lords aside from terminator armour (which then kills mobility completely) both of which are available in the space wolves codex, oh and a 3+ invuln on a storm shield... So for around the same points as a wolf lord on thunder wolf we get -1 strength, -1 save, -1 invuln... Yeah sounds about right for Chaos.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

No argument there, but to play devil's advocate many tournament players will simply spam their "top level filth" no matter what the codex is. Min-maxed lists are usually a race to the bottom as far as diversity goes.

Great. So what about all of us lowly plebs who don't care for, or want anything to do with hyper-competitive Tournament play?

Even Daemons are becoming rather gimped when not running our filthiest filth.

I am 2-0 today with my Chaos army just taking down an invisible WolfStar in the second round.

I'm curious what your list is and what mission it was. Congrats on the win, but many of the so called Chaos Space marine lists i've seen win are Belakor, two units of cultists and heavy on allies.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm curious what your list is and what mission it was. Congrats on the win, but many of the so called Chaos Space marine lists i've seen win are Belakor, two units of cultists and heavy on allies.

Eh. Nurgle Bikers, Spawn & Oblits with the minimum Troops tax on Cultists (if needed) or MSU Plagumarines in Rhinos, and led by either a flying Nurgle Mace Prince or MoN Bike Lord w/PF+L.claw or the rarer AoBF Jugger Lord still does decently in Maelstrom based events.

Really, we should just re-name our codex to "Codex: Nurgle + Friends", because there's nothing that's remotely actual Chaos Marines that's even playable outside of MoN... Tzeentch is about as terrible as it gets nowadays in 40k!

Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

Having a single actual Codex: CSM model is the point people are trying to make about why CSM's suck so badly... Literally *any* other Chaos list is leagues better than any option you'll find within the actual codex!

Shockingly, most Chaos fans just want to be able to play their favourite Legion/theme from within mostly the CSM codex itself. Unfortunately, unless you like a handful of Nurgle options, there's no point in ever taking anything bar Sorcerers from our actual codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

You've been telling that CSM doesn't have a problem and that they can win using their codex, and the list you show us as units from 6 differents sources...

So you're just giving proof that people are right, you cannot win by taking a Pure CSM army only from the CSM codex...

Whatever I work with what's available. But go ahead and keep complaining when there's actually lots of great units to choose from when designing a list. IoM does it all the time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Whatever I work with what's available. But go ahead and keep complaining when there's actually lots of great units to choose from when designing a list. IoM does it all the time.

You prove yourself wrong and then use a lame copout

Claims the current CSM codex is good enough -> plays with unbound list with one single unit from the CSM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

This isn't a chaos space marine list. YOu have one HQ unit from the codex. This is the point were trying to make, that all the so called lists that are winning are either chaos super friends or codex nurgle

My point is you can win with what you've got rather than lamenting on the state of the CSM codex.

You can't just grab a Sorcerer and then make that statement. Everything else is either Daemonkin or Daemons (Belakor can just be easily said to have been pulled from Daemons). If anything you could substitute the Sorcerer with Heralds and have the same exact outcome. Nobody is buying your argument.

It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Except I can get the same results, and arguably better, since a Herald could grab a Grimoire.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Yes Chaos demons and KDK can be mixed and matched to make a strong list. What this thread is about and what I truly feel bad for is chaos marine players who actually want to play actual chaos space marines, IE actual power armor/ terminator armor guys. Right now that is a tough list to field effectively and that is a dam shame.

With this logic why not just go Unbound space marines and deep strike daemons on the other side of the board? It's space marines right? Never mind the question specifies CSM in name

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Except that a goodly number of people want to play Chaos SPACE MARINES.
And right now you can play anything but, simply because we've been left to rot with 3rd edition models & options at overcosted 4th edition pricing, while trying to still play basic Rhino Rush like it's 5th edition!

Mark of Nurgle on a handful of units makes them decent, though still behind the power curve of most other equivalents. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Chaos Marine players don't want to play Nurgle Super Friends.

But apparently as long as YOU are happy, that's perfectly fine and the rest of us just need to grow up and apparently L2P/Git Gud...
Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

no other army has to deal with this kind of BS

But we all know that Chaos don't deserve nice things.

To be fair, Nurgle is cooler and Tzeentch is his enemy SOOOOOOO...

In plain English, people want to play vanilla chaos and be able to stand up to elderp, noobcrons and spesh mureens, and of course the fish cows, not much to ask is it.

Well. This thread does serve to make me feel bad for playing Eldar and Marines.

 War Kitten wrote:
Well. This thread does serve to make me feel bad for playing Eldar and Marines.

Our new post-heresy tactics are to guilt our opponents into conceding right before they make the killing blow, because we guilt them to death. I'm big on an unmarked havoc squad with four guilt-cannons, although the Termicide combi-guilt squad gets some mileage in my army too.

Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

It's funny that people are like "Man, imperials have the tools for everything!"

"SOB don't get grav!"

"OH, shut up, just ally grav!"

[MEANWHILE]

"Man, chaos doesn't have the tools for anything."

"Daemons do, just ally daemons."

"I WANT TO PLAY MONO-DEX!"

Well yes... but you're missing the part where the SoB or BA player yells "Allies don't count!" after people tell them to ally in grav.

And also the part where those aren't the same people making those 2 statements.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well yes... but you're missing the part where the SoB or BA player yells "Allies don't count!" after people tell them to ally in grav.

And also the part where those aren't the same people making those 2 statements.

I know, but it's funny.

BA can take grav.

As a loyalist marine player who likes the ally system because of what it allows for fluffy armies, I'm calling BS on all this Chaos is one big family.

I can play a marine army on it's own and do fairly well. I love ally in some guard, some ad mech, my cast of inquisitors. But no army should be so weak that ally it in is the only answer. This would be forgivable for Ad mech or Harlequins or Inquisition who are designed more to be the ally codex.

Chaos space marines arn't that. They are the great enemy, the force that took half the Emperors sons. I have no interest in chaos as player but to see such a major faction reduced to a joke is something that makes me sad.

No one is saying that. Sisters aren't a bad dex on their own without allies, probably mid tier. Certainly stronger than csm

Experiment 626 wrote:

Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

How about a new format?

- No bikes as troops, no generic mounts for HQs, no named characters, no GMC/SHV, no relics, no grav and no D weapons
- No formations, no uber-detachments
- 1-2x HQs, cannot exceed 180pts each (MC choices may exceed their core cost by +50pts)
- Psykers are unlocked as secondary HQs aside from justifiable exceptions (ie. chaos heralds, grey knights, inquisitors, marked tzeentch sorcs)
- Maximum of 3x ICs outside of mandatory HQ choices
- 4-6x troop choices as mandatory, 5x-30x models, the total cost in DTs cannot exceed 25% of the army
- 1x Elite, 1x FA, 1x HS choice are all mandatory
- 1x extra choice from Elite/FA/HS is allowed, which must differ from all mandatory choices
- An allied detachment is permissible but it must obey global force restrictions
- ICs cannot join allied units and allied transports cannot transport primary troops (and vice versa)
- Factions must roll on their own warlord tables, psykers must roll once on their own table if their faction has psychic powers
- Psychic focus is limited to faction-specific disciplines, and any psyker with focus may reroll failed warp dice
- Invis reduces BS to 1, Sanctic Daemonology restricted to Imperium, access to Malefic daemonology is restricted to Chaos
- Each player gets 3x sideboard choices (180pts each) and can choose one to enter reserves on T2

If you enjoy playing with ~1000pts of superheavies and ~1000 points in wombo-combo deathstars that's fine. To each their own. But if you prefer the iconic units and more old school 40k, that doesn't work. So there needs to be a classic format to balance out the Apocalypse/Formation madness. I mean, GW isn't going to have a problem with players buying the next shiny bauble in pursuit of victory. There's a reason each new broken codex update is tied to new model kits, right?

So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

I doubt anyone that's saying to Sisters Players to ally for Grav is also complaining that CSM have to ally. But I personally think the 3+ armies need more unique specials weapons to separate themselves. Let Marines keep grav and give Sisters some Flamer than causes Extra wounds per failed save based on the save that was failed( so termies would take extra wounds on a 2, whereas guard would take it on a 5+) or something better. There's a reason I don't write rules , And bring back the Kai gun for CSM!


But every army should be able to stand on it's own two feet without being told to ally. Patching holes with FW/Suppliments is fine, Because FW stuff/Suppliments are made with that army's Codex( or an older version of said codex) in mind. But there's a Reason CSM and Daemons and KDK are in three different full Fledged Books. They are three separate armies. And while allying the three of them together for a Khorne heavy Word Bearer list might be something cool to play with if that's your thing, that might not jive with the guy playing Night Lords or Alpha Legion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

To be fair, while all chaos should be in the same fething codex, it isn't. Each codex should be able to stand on its own without having to bring friends along. CSM as a codex have a tiny fraction of the delivery options (and indeed options in general) as their SM counterparts, and pay a premium for them too.

I love my CSM, I don't love how their already weak codex got ripped in two and then got dumped on from a great height too for good measure. I absolutely hate GW releasing multiple books and dataslates for armies so you need a bloody hand cart to carry them all with you just so you can play with what should have been in one book to start with...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
To be fair, while all chaos should be in the same fething codex, it isn't. Each codex should be able to stand on its own without having to bring friends along. CSM as a codex have a tiny fraction of the delivery options (and indeed options in general) as their SM counterparts, and pay a premium for them too.

As someone who did most of their Chaos gaming during "the glory days", I really enjoyed the summoning of the daemons from the main 'dex. I recall when they were removed from the main book it was because the main book wasn't offering enough room to give them the space they deserved. Fair enough too - so chop out some of the underperforming stuff in the CSM book. Make the "Space Marine" part of the Chaos army a smaller part, and put the daemons right back in there. I'd like to see "Lord" and "Lieutenant" entries as the only two "CSM" entries. Then allow both to be upgraded as appropriate - you can upgrade to be a Sorc OR a Dark Apostle OR a Warpsmith, and so on. Make Chosen into one unit entry with a per-model points upgrade for terminator armour, etc...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
My point is you can win with what you've got rather than lamenting on the state of the CSM codex.

Doesn't help if you're using a different bloody codex. You might as well use the SM codex and the CSM models at that point.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

No, they are not. We can take dear Drop Pods that cost 3x what a Loyalist Drop Pod costs, if they even cost anything seen as every single SM list I've played against in the past few months was a Gladius Strike Force. That is not "excellent delivery systems." At best, it's a high utility flyer, not a delivery system.

If you wanna go with Rhinos we are at the same impasse. Ours ain't free.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

IoM don't need to.

A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

It also has a chance of eating the embarked models, dreadnoughts included.

I'd have SM drop pods over the current dreadclaws any day of the week.

Never been sure why Khaos dont have the khaosy equivalent of a web way gate/ drop pod. Take D3 wounds per squad, when used. Call it a portal tax.
Lords, Sorcerers, maybe even Vet. squad leaders, ignore that, -1,-2 . Blessed by the Gods.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

WHat you don't seem to understand is that Imperial factions CAN ally, but they DON'T NEED them to work.

A guy can come up and play a pure SM list or a pure IG list and still win the day, they can of course take a bit of Admech or a bit on Inquisition sprinkled above it, but it depends on personal style/flavor,

CSM cannot be effective if it doesn't make ridiculous amount of efforts to ally stuff.

A good Codex as all the options you need in it, and the codex can be self-sufficient and doesn't need anything from outside, you can then choose the options of Allies and IA related units, to go outside of what the book propose to you in the scope of army building.

CSM( and i emphasis on CSM only, not KDK), doesn't have a choice, they are litteraly forced to take either allies or IA related materials.

You told us that yes the faction is self sufficient, then you show us a list with 1 CSM entry and units coming from 6 different sources, so you are litteraly giving us the proof we needed in this argument, you win, because you don't play a CSM army, you play a Chaos army, but not a CSM one.

I don't think pure ig can win all day tbh. At the least they want an inquisitor.
But that's just picking you apart. Most of the imperial armies don't need allies like csm and de do to work.

Everything else said I agree with

Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

I played CSM with a strong Nurgle theme and allied daemons in 6th and start of 7th. It was a strong army but I never achieved the success I really wanted and finally gave up. I am really excited about the new KDK and have found it to be stronger.

It is okay to want a codex at the top tier level... Dark eldar are in same boat. The thing is imo you can have a strong army which is a lot more fun than wishing for something who knows if ever will come to pass again. There only three codices that can stand alone as top tier and tbh I don't really see Necrons winning any major events this year. 7th edition is all about mixing it up now. If one person reads this and is inspired that is really worth it to me.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Except that a goodly number of people want to play Chaos SPACE MARINES.
And right now you can play anything but, simply because we've been left to rot with 3rd edition models & options at overcosted 4th edition pricing, while trying to still play basic Rhino Rush like it's 5th edition!

Mark of Nurgle on a handful of units makes them decent, though still behind the power curve of most other equivalents. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Chaos Marine players don't want to play Nurgle Super Friends.

But apparently as long as YOU are happy, that's perfectly fine and the rest of us just need to grow up and apparently L2P/Git Gud...
Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

no other army has to deal with this kind of BS

But we all know that Chaos don't deserve nice things.

Blood Angels are the Imperial CSM. Except that unlike CSM, BA have literally NOTHING to offer other Imperial lists except a formation to spam drop pods. So BA is properly Crop Pod

BA and DE are taxi cab services.

At least Blood Angels offer Dante, Priests, and Death Company. What are Daemons really wanting to take out of the CSM codex? Belakor, which they can already get anyway?

What's your point? Both sides are correct to complain. Meanwhile if sisters got a daemonkin dex (I.e. witch hunters) I would buy that in a second. Sadly I hate Khorne in 40k so I'm waiting for any other god codex

Well the thing is there might not be another DK codex or at least for awhile. I really feel like Khorne needed it the most.

All of them do, minus Nurgle xD sadly Nurgle will get the next one if they ever do another. At this point I may just make my own codex for tzeentch

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's funny that people are like "Man, imperials have the tools for everything!"

"SOB don't get grav!"

"OH, shut up, just ally grav!"

[MEANWHILE]

"Man, chaos doesn't have the tools for anything."

"Daemons do, just ally daemons."

"I WANT TO PLAY MONO-DEX!"

I don't think you will find anyone arguing that SoB are in a good spot.

Some try to, which is depressing in that CSM are somehow worse then sisters

SoB probably have the worst diversity in the game but their monobuild is actually pretty okay.

So CSM are indeed even worse, which is sad.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

Exactly. Loyalists get delivery methods for free, while I pay 95 for points for a flyer to do the same thing. However, I want a delivery method, not a flyer.

The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

The point is though, using a minimalist Gladius Strike force you can get an extra 350 points of Drop Pods for free. 9x 5 man squads (6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 dev) plus a 10 man squad of any, a base chaplain and base captain, costs 950pts, so in a 1500pt list and after you get your mandatory extra formation (which is great anyway), in a 1500pt list you could have still another 300pts to spend on special weapons and upgrades. THEN you get 10 drop pods for free, so you're running an 1850 drop pod list against a 1500pt list

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

A guy can come up and play a pure IG list and still win the day.

You lost a lot of plausibility when you said this. Given that the IG army is at, if maybe ever so slightly above, the level of Chaos Marines then by your standards a pure CSM list should be able to take all comers and win, which it cant.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

FREE drop pod you mean

 Formosa wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

FREE drop pod you mean

Free/35pts, basically the same thing in comparison to the dreadclaw

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

A guy can come up and play a pure IG list and still win the day.

You lost a lot of plausibility when you said this. Given that the IG army is at, if maybe ever so slightly above, the level of Chaos Marines then by your standards a pure CSM list should be able to take all comers and win, which it cant.

Yeah dunno why i said IG honestly..., at the time it cam up my mind.

I just work with what I have available. I enjoy playing Chaos too which I think is really the main thing.

I think it depends on what you like about chaos. Some people see chaos demons as a natural part of the chaos space marines, while others see them as entirely separate factions. A lot of us is due to legions...obviously if you play a cult or word bearers you are probably more open to demons than a iron warriors or alpha legion player.

Really, a legion dex would be best if it was stand alone with an option to ally in the demons book. It would probably make the largest percent of chaos players happy.

Demons don't make a lot for about half the the traitor legions. Alpha and Iron warriors arn't the biggest fan and Nightlords don't have much love for them either. Thats not to say they would never, but thematically it makes sense that they would prefer to be pure marine.

Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.


Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.


Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

Not the first time i've heard this, and while i do like the traitement FW gave fotr Legions, they are SPACE MARINES LEGIONS rules and lists, not CHAOS SPACE MARINES LEGIONS.

We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

3.5 dex delivered this and we where happy, so its not impossible to do, just that the Studio lacks any guy that is a CSM fan, because lets be honest here, each codex is made by guys that play, or like the said army/race to begin with, the latest guys who where CSM players at GW studio did leave the boat a decade ago.

That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

But again that's 30k, not codex CSM.

Don't get me wrong I love 30k, I love all the idea of all the additional things (from dataslate to Black Legion supplement and allies etc [ not a fan of the implementation, but that's another topic]).

But it would be nice to just use things from codex CSM, like how Eldar can practically use any unit, or have something akin to chapter tactics like marines have that makes things variable. Rather than 2 nurgle marked units and daemons + IA3 units + KDK. Which is just the CSM label slapped on the top of a box where the original label is crossed out.

Word Bearers are knowed for their use of Deamons, but its not the only thing they did/do, they are much more then that.

Just like Nightlords are not only about Raptors.

Maybe i always look at the dark sides of things, but you sure focus on the one or two good things of things( even though the other 65 things are bad).

Now to be clear, You have fun and think its okay how you use your list and how CSM are, wich is perfectly your right.

But for the others like us who played 3.5dex and are jaded, things as they are now, are not good and they look rather bleak.

I'm actively using deepstrike of solo daemon models like obliterators and mutilators.

Ally in a squad of daemons with a banner.
Deep strike our own daemon units and they only scatter d6 when within 6" of the banner.

I take daemonettes for this role. They also bring in masque to lock down strong melee and weaken shooty units but that's another story.

Tried using dimensional key but it generally activates only on the 2-d turn. Difterrain within 12 is quite cool though.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

But again that's 30k, not codex CSM.

Don't get me wrong I love 30k, I love all the idea of all the additional things (from dataslate to Black Legion supplement and allies etc [ not a fan of the implementation, but that's another topic]).

But it would be nice to just use things from codex CSM, like how Eldar can practically use any unit, or have something akin to chapter tactics like marines have that makes things variable. Rather than 2 nurgle marked units and daemons + IA3 units + KDK. Which is just the CSM label slapped on the top of a box where the original label is crossed out.

Put this in your signature so you can stop repeating yourself.

Maybe one day it will happen but then again maybe not any time soon. I used to lament over BA but eventually learnt to move along.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Word Bearers are knowed for their use of Deamons, but its not the only thing they did/do, they are much more then that.

Just like Nightlords are not only about Raptors.

Maybe i always look at the dark sides of things, but you sure focus on the one or two good things of things( even though the other 65 things are bad).

Now to be clear, You have fun and think its okay how you use your list and how CSM are, wich is perfectly your right.

But for the others like us who played 3.5dex and are jaded, things as they are now, are not good and they look rather bleak.

I played CSM when they were a power house as well as BA. Like I said above I eventually found other things.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

No, we do not have an excellent delivery system, as shown by loads of Gladius Strike Forces at tournaments, but I've never heard of a CSM drop pod list.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

The CSM dex is supposed to represent the legions as they currently are. And if it doesn't have no fear - GW will happily change all the fluff to make it so!

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

You forgot something important in pros: it is objective secured if taken by csm or sometimes also chosen. That can be huge in maelstrom games. It has won me games.
Also, being a flyer and not a drop pod, we can keep our guys hidden inside rather than being forced to disembark, should we so choose.
And as for the cons: yes the fast attack slot is crowded, but the fire raptor and heldrake are completely different units. Nobody in their right mind would take a dreadclaw with the express intent of causing damage. Comparing to a storm eagle would be more fair and that isn't in the same slot. Not saying your wrong or anything though. I'd only ever take it as a dedicated myself.

Still, overall I agree. I like the claw but I would prefer if it had guidance (read: it really needs guidance). I mean...it' sentient enough to eat your guys, why not sentient enough to crash into enemy units and eat those? I could live with the claw instead of drop pods if we got some shenanigans of our own. Its a cool idea but it needs refining. As it is currently, it can't hope to compete with drop pods. That said though, if you treat it as a drop pod it sucks. Treat it as as an assault vehicle valkyrie and it fares much better. I enjoy it and it has done good things for me. Just...don't you dare stick a dread in there.

Same goes for the kharybdis really. It's really cool and I want to love it, but it just doesn't live up to the fluff at all. Wayy wayyyy too expensive. But really satisfying to use when it goes right lol.
By itself though the Dreadclaw works ok. It needs some further tuning but yea, comparing it the formation buffs loyalists get isn't quite fair. On it own its comparable. If it had guidance and costed more like 80ish points it would be good...different...but still good. The fact that these don't become paperweight can make a huge difference and the pseudo flamer is heaps better than the droppod bolter.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

No, we do not have an excellent delivery system, as shown by loads of Gladius Strike Forces at tournaments, but I've never heard of a CSM drop pod list.

So what transport can you assault out of the first turn besides the Khybardis ?

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

The Fire Raptor is really good but the Heldrake anymore... do you really need three Fire Raptors ?

CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor.

"CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor" ...if you like playing with fire that is lol. For infantry units the whole eating thing isn't a deal breaker, you lose 1 guy out of ten..maybe. But with a dread, you lose everything. You roll that 1 and you lose 200 some points right there and then.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

You can't assault out of a Dreadclaw or Khyribdis (outside of the formation) the turn they arrive either because you just came from reserves.

I believe it was in response to Chaz:
"Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway"

 kronk wrote:
Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

He started playing wargames from 1971

 loki old fart wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

He started playing wargames from 1971

Well he got lost in time

I may not agree with him, but personal insults do nothing to benefit your argument.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

You can't assault out of a Dreadclaw or Khyribdis (outside of the formation) the turn they arrive either because you just came from reserves.

You can never assault out of a drop pod.

That's because everyone is forced to disembark from a Drop Pod now.

If they weren't they'd be able to because it's Open Topped (which is what BT players could do before the 6th Ed SM 'dex).