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Well yes... but you're missing the part where the SoB or BA player yells "Allies don't count!" after people tell them to ally in grav.

And also the part where those aren't the same people making those 2 statements.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well yes... but you're missing the part where the SoB or BA player yells "Allies don't count!" after people tell them to ally in grav.

And also the part where those aren't the same people making those 2 statements.

I know, but it's funny.

BA can take grav.

As a loyalist marine player who likes the ally system because of what it allows for fluffy armies, I'm calling BS on all this Chaos is one big family.

I can play a marine army on it's own and do fairly well. I love ally in some guard, some ad mech, my cast of inquisitors. But no army should be so weak that ally it in is the only answer. This would be forgivable for Ad mech or Harlequins or Inquisition who are designed more to be the ally codex.

Chaos space marines arn't that. They are the great enemy, the force that took half the Emperors sons. I have no interest in chaos as player but to see such a major faction reduced to a joke is something that makes me sad.

No one is saying that. Sisters aren't a bad dex on their own without allies, probably mid tier. Certainly stronger than csm

Experiment 626 wrote:

Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

How about a new format?

- No bikes as troops, no generic mounts for HQs, no named characters, no GMC/SHV, no relics, no grav and no D weapons
- No formations, no uber-detachments
- 1-2x HQs, cannot exceed 180pts each (MC choices may exceed their core cost by +50pts)
- Psykers are unlocked as secondary HQs aside from justifiable exceptions (ie. chaos heralds, grey knights, inquisitors, marked tzeentch sorcs)
- Maximum of 3x ICs outside of mandatory HQ choices
- 4-6x troop choices as mandatory, 5x-30x models, the total cost in DTs cannot exceed 25% of the army
- 1x Elite, 1x FA, 1x HS choice are all mandatory
- 1x extra choice from Elite/FA/HS is allowed, which must differ from all mandatory choices
- An allied detachment is permissible but it must obey global force restrictions
- ICs cannot join allied units and allied transports cannot transport primary troops (and vice versa)
- Factions must roll on their own warlord tables, psykers must roll once on their own table if their faction has psychic powers
- Psychic focus is limited to faction-specific disciplines, and any psyker with focus may reroll failed warp dice
- Invis reduces BS to 1, Sanctic Daemonology restricted to Imperium, access to Malefic daemonology is restricted to Chaos
- Each player gets 3x sideboard choices (180pts each) and can choose one to enter reserves on T2

If you enjoy playing with ~1000pts of superheavies and ~1000 points in wombo-combo deathstars that's fine. To each their own. But if you prefer the iconic units and more old school 40k, that doesn't work. So there needs to be a classic format to balance out the Apocalypse/Formation madness. I mean, GW isn't going to have a problem with players buying the next shiny bauble in pursuit of victory. There's a reason each new broken codex update is tied to new model kits, right?

So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

I doubt anyone that's saying to Sisters Players to ally for Grav is also complaining that CSM have to ally. But I personally think the 3+ armies need more unique specials weapons to separate themselves. Let Marines keep grav and give Sisters some Flamer than causes Extra wounds per failed save based on the save that was failed( so termies would take extra wounds on a 2, whereas guard would take it on a 5+) or something better. There's a reason I don't write rules , And bring back the Kai gun for CSM!


But every army should be able to stand on it's own two feet without being told to ally. Patching holes with FW/Suppliments is fine, Because FW stuff/Suppliments are made with that army's Codex( or an older version of said codex) in mind. But there's a Reason CSM and Daemons and KDK are in three different full Fledged Books. They are three separate armies. And while allying the three of them together for a Khorne heavy Word Bearer list might be something cool to play with if that's your thing, that might not jive with the guy playing Night Lords or Alpha Legion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

To be fair, while all chaos should be in the same fething codex, it isn't. Each codex should be able to stand on its own without having to bring friends along. CSM as a codex have a tiny fraction of the delivery options (and indeed options in general) as their SM counterparts, and pay a premium for them too.

I love my CSM, I don't love how their already weak codex got ripped in two and then got dumped on from a great height too for good measure. I absolutely hate GW releasing multiple books and dataslates for armies so you need a bloody hand cart to carry them all with you just so you can play with what should have been in one book to start with...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
To be fair, while all chaos should be in the same fething codex, it isn't. Each codex should be able to stand on its own without having to bring friends along. CSM as a codex have a tiny fraction of the delivery options (and indeed options in general) as their SM counterparts, and pay a premium for them too.

As someone who did most of their Chaos gaming during "the glory days", I really enjoyed the summoning of the daemons from the main 'dex. I recall when they were removed from the main book it was because the main book wasn't offering enough room to give them the space they deserved. Fair enough too - so chop out some of the underperforming stuff in the CSM book. Make the "Space Marine" part of the Chaos army a smaller part, and put the daemons right back in there. I'd like to see "Lord" and "Lieutenant" entries as the only two "CSM" entries. Then allow both to be upgraded as appropriate - you can upgrade to be a Sorc OR a Dark Apostle OR a Warpsmith, and so on. Make Chosen into one unit entry with a per-model points upgrade for terminator armour, etc...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
My point is you can win with what you've got rather than lamenting on the state of the CSM codex.

Doesn't help if you're using a different bloody codex. You might as well use the SM codex and the CSM models at that point.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

No, they are not. We can take dear Drop Pods that cost 3x what a Loyalist Drop Pod costs, if they even cost anything seen as every single SM list I've played against in the past few months was a Gladius Strike Force. That is not "excellent delivery systems." At best, it's a high utility flyer, not a delivery system.

If you wanna go with Rhinos we are at the same impasse. Ours ain't free.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

IoM don't need to.

A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

It also has a chance of eating the embarked models, dreadnoughts included.

I'd have SM drop pods over the current dreadclaws any day of the week.

Never been sure why Khaos dont have the khaosy equivalent of a web way gate/ drop pod. Take D3 wounds per squad, when used. Call it a portal tax.
Lords, Sorcerers, maybe even Vet. squad leaders, ignore that, -1,-2 . Blessed by the Gods.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

WHat you don't seem to understand is that Imperial factions CAN ally, but they DON'T NEED them to work.

A guy can come up and play a pure SM list or a pure IG list and still win the day, they can of course take a bit of Admech or a bit on Inquisition sprinkled above it, but it depends on personal style/flavor,

CSM cannot be effective if it doesn't make ridiculous amount of efforts to ally stuff.

A good Codex as all the options you need in it, and the codex can be self-sufficient and doesn't need anything from outside, you can then choose the options of Allies and IA related units, to go outside of what the book propose to you in the scope of army building.

CSM( and i emphasis on CSM only, not KDK), doesn't have a choice, they are litteraly forced to take either allies or IA related materials.

You told us that yes the faction is self sufficient, then you show us a list with 1 CSM entry and units coming from 6 different sources, so you are litteraly giving us the proof we needed in this argument, you win, because you don't play a CSM army, you play a Chaos army, but not a CSM one.

I don't think pure ig can win all day tbh. At the least they want an inquisitor.
But that's just picking you apart. Most of the imperial armies don't need allies like csm and de do to work.

Everything else said I agree with

Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

I played CSM with a strong Nurgle theme and allied daemons in 6th and start of 7th. It was a strong army but I never achieved the success I really wanted and finally gave up. I am really excited about the new KDK and have found it to be stronger.

It is okay to want a codex at the top tier level... Dark eldar are in same boat. The thing is imo you can have a strong army which is a lot more fun than wishing for something who knows if ever will come to pass again. There only three codices that can stand alone as top tier and tbh I don't really see Necrons winning any major events this year. 7th edition is all about mixing it up now. If one person reads this and is inspired that is really worth it to me.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Except that a goodly number of people want to play Chaos SPACE MARINES.
And right now you can play anything but, simply because we've been left to rot with 3rd edition models & options at overcosted 4th edition pricing, while trying to still play basic Rhino Rush like it's 5th edition!

Mark of Nurgle on a handful of units makes them decent, though still behind the power curve of most other equivalents. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Chaos Marine players don't want to play Nurgle Super Friends.

But apparently as long as YOU are happy, that's perfectly fine and the rest of us just need to grow up and apparently L2P/Git Gud...
Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

no other army has to deal with this kind of BS

But we all know that Chaos don't deserve nice things.

Blood Angels are the Imperial CSM. Except that unlike CSM, BA have literally NOTHING to offer other Imperial lists except a formation to spam drop pods. So BA is properly Crop Pod

BA and DE are taxi cab services.

At least Blood Angels offer Dante, Priests, and Death Company. What are Daemons really wanting to take out of the CSM codex? Belakor, which they can already get anyway?

What's your point? Both sides are correct to complain. Meanwhile if sisters got a daemonkin dex (I.e. witch hunters) I would buy that in a second. Sadly I hate Khorne in 40k so I'm waiting for any other god codex

Well the thing is there might not be another DK codex or at least for awhile. I really feel like Khorne needed it the most.

All of them do, minus Nurgle xD sadly Nurgle will get the next one if they ever do another. At this point I may just make my own codex for tzeentch

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's funny that people are like "Man, imperials have the tools for everything!"

"SOB don't get grav!"

"OH, shut up, just ally grav!"

[MEANWHILE]

"Man, chaos doesn't have the tools for anything."

"Daemons do, just ally daemons."

"I WANT TO PLAY MONO-DEX!"

I don't think you will find anyone arguing that SoB are in a good spot.

Some try to, which is depressing in that CSM are somehow worse then sisters

SoB probably have the worst diversity in the game but their monobuild is actually pretty okay.

So CSM are indeed even worse, which is sad.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A dreadclaw is a flyer so of course it costs more points. It's a lot better than a drop pod such as you can assault out of it.

Exactly. Loyalists get delivery methods for free, while I pay 95 for points for a flyer to do the same thing. However, I want a delivery method, not a flyer.

The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

The point is though, using a minimalist Gladius Strike force you can get an extra 350 points of Drop Pods for free. 9x 5 man squads (6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 dev) plus a 10 man squad of any, a base chaplain and base captain, costs 950pts, so in a 1500pt list and after you get your mandatory extra formation (which is great anyway), in a 1500pt list you could have still another 300pts to spend on special weapons and upgrades. THEN you get 10 drop pods for free, so you're running an 1850 drop pod list against a 1500pt list