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I wouldn't be getting my hopes up for a new codex that is reminiscent of the 4.5 codex... Look how some armies have changed from one edition to next like Grey Knights and Tyranids. GW had the opportunity to address CSM with two supplements and missed the mark both times.

Akiasura wrote:
Oh god, WE ARE GOING FULL MUTILATOR!
NEVER GO FULL MUTILATOR

Oh my Emperor!

nareik wrote:Nice Khorne marines! I suppose those are chosen with a chaos lord? edit: and cypher!?

Very good Dread Claw conversion too, did you have a guide to that conversion?

Thanks, those are World Eaters Chosen, and yes this is a Cypher count as, don't use it anymore.

Not really a guide just an idea that since the Dreadclaw is much wider and angular then a regular pod i needed a way to make it seem larger at the top, so the idea came to simply use the bottom part of a second pod, pin and glue the doors on it, then arrange the fins so that they have a more straigth angle, need some adjustements, but it works wonders.

ChazSexington wrote:
CC S 7 vs IC S 6 (IC's hitting at S10 anyway due to equipment)

Not wanna rain on your parade, but the Contemptor also as per default a dread CCW..., so i really don't see the point here, plus if he's dedicated to Khorne he gains Rage and Rampage, i know its more point sink in it, but still.

Also i think you dismiss really easely a 4++/6++ save, when Ironclads doesn't have one..., also you can give it a Chainfist, 3+2+D3 Str10+2D6 attacks is not something to sniff at

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Now don't get me wrong Dreadclaws arn't terribad like Warp talons or Muties are.

Muties are great. Warp talons are...better than possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your dreadclaw looks nice. I'd also put some looong sticks on it's sides.

Warp Talons are worse than Crimson Slaughter Possessed though so that's a wash.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Warp Talons are worse than Crimson Slaughter Possessed though so that's a wash.

That's still arguable.

Akiasura wrote:
Oh god, WE ARE GOING FULL MUTILATOR!
NEVER GO FULL MUTILATOR

Here I am sipping my tea and idly skimming this thread, and suddenly - all caps!

I'm now mopping second-hand tea up from my keyboard and monitor. Well played.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You are entitled to your opinions but I pretty much disagree with everything you said. It is great for SM players they have GSF formation and good for them - I really don't care tbh and don't let it get me down. Funny enough I love using Contemptors in Dreadclaws... different strokes for different folks. Don't take it personally that I am saying you are wrong. We just don't see eye to eye.

And you are entitled to yours It's what works for you, and I'm going at this from a game balance/tournament point of view, not what is fun necessarily. And no personal attack taken, I just wasn't seeing any non-pathos arguments, but we were arguing based on different criteria

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Lol.

I use Contemptors as heavy weapon platforms. They fulfill a different role in my army as opposed to the Ironclad - and yes the Ironclad is awesome in melee. Contemptors are a point sink but I enjoy using them.

And that's kinda of it. I've often taken a Mayhem pack because even though they never do anything (last time I used them, they got wiped by Necron gauss after missing all their multi-melta shots), but they occasionally can take down a Contemptor. Our Dreadnoughts are outdated and overpriced, but it can still be fun to watch your opponent's face as you Deep Strike 3 of them next to his glass cannons.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

ChazSexington wrote:
CC S 7 vs IC S 6 (IC's hitting at S10 anyway due to equipment)

Not wanna rain on your parade, but the Contemptor also as per default a dread CCW..., so i really don't see the point here, plus if he's dedicated to Khorne he gains Rage and Rampage, i know its more point sink in it, but still.

Also i think you dismiss really easely a 4++/6++ save, when Ironclads doesn't have one..., also you can give it a Chainfist, 3+2+D3 Str10+2D6 attacks is not something to sniff at

Aye, should've been (CC and IC's hitting at S10...

I didn't mean to dismiss the invuln; it is their best feature, but they have worse AV, so it's a trade off. However, getting a pen against AV10-13 isn't difficult, and then they're reduced to a Tzeentch's t-shirt save.

The rest you suggest drops loads of points into it, like you mention, which means you're up against 2 Ironclads. That's kinda the issue.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.

I love how so many of the "your codex is fine - just L2P" arguments inevitably always accuse us of simply wanting an OP, 'I-Win' button codex like smEldar...

Here's a shocking concept: not Everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing Nurgle all the time just to stand a chance at even having a close game with actual Chaos Space Marines!

I just want to be able to field a Tzeentch army that doesn't get laughed off the table by even unoptimised Guard or Blood Angels for once...
I want to have options for once that allow me to field my army based off of Tzeentch's affinity for burning everything in sight. (seriously, why no Heavy + Hand flamers for us?)
I'd love to have a reason to take my Possessed & Warptalons as part of an actual CSM army, instead of them only being viable when taken as rejects within a Codex: Daemons army.

Most of all, I just want to see Chaos for once be treated with the same love & attention that every other MEQ army gets, instead of us continuously being gakked on with our identity forever being 'Marines -10'.
If Loyalists can get Chapter Tactics, then why can't we have similar fluffy rules for our iconic Undivided Legions/infamous Renegades? Where are our new toys? Why do Loyalists keep getting significantly better versions of our unique units?

But apparently, wanting to simply be treated as being equal to all the other Marine books automatically makes us a bunch of WaaC's TFG's.

To be fair, the current Eldar codex makes it possible to basically field whatever army you want and still have a pretty decent chance of holding your ground in most scenarios.

I can't do that with my Chaos Space Marines. I love to play Night Lords-alike lists with Raptors, Bikes, squads of CSM and Chosen in Rhinos, deep-striking terminators, CC-oriented dreadnoughts and no marks... and I know I won't stand a chance in a slightly competitive meta. In fact my local meta is a somewhat friendly but semi-competitive environment (having fun is the 1st priority, but some of the guys are tourney-type players and sometimes they want to try out some new lists, and who can blame them) and I lose way more games than I win.

And I don't really have a problem with that. I don't mind losing a 40k game if it allows me to have a nice morning/evening. But even if I wanted to win, with the current CSM codex in hand, my choices would be limited to a certain specific builds, and probably allying in some daemons which I don't want to (my fluff says I have a Malal warband, so no daemonettes or blood-things welcome).

I don't want nor need an Eldar-style "I-win" button. I just want a codex that allows me to field a reasonably fluffy army list that is not complete garbage. With the game in its 7th fething edition and the rulebooks&codices being ludicrously expensive, that's not too much to ask, right?

Just compare possessed to the new Wolfen units then lets continue this discussion.

 Konrax wrote:
Just compare possessed to the new Wolfen units then lets continue this discussion.

Nah, compare them to Warptalons who cost the exact same and then weep!

At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.

I love how so many of the "your codex is fine - just L2P" arguments inevitably always accuse us of simply wanting an OP, 'I-Win' button codex like smEldar...

Here's a shocking concept: not Everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing Nurgle all the time just to stand a chance at even having a close game with actual Chaos Space Marines!

I just want to be able to field a Tzeentch army that doesn't get laughed off the table by even unoptimised Guard or Blood Angels for once...
I want to have options for once that allow me to field my army based off of Tzeentch's affinity for burning everything in sight. (seriously, why no Heavy + Hand flamers for us?)
I'd love to have a reason to take my Possessed & Warptalons as part of an actual CSM army, instead of them only being viable when taken as rejects within a Codex: Daemons army.

Most of all, I just want to see Chaos for once be treated with the same love & attention that every other MEQ army gets, instead of us continuously being gakked on with our identity forever being 'Marines -10'.
If Loyalists can get Chapter Tactics, then why can't we have similar fluffy rules for our iconic Undivided Legions/infamous Renegades? Where are our new toys? Why do Loyalists keep getting significantly better versions of our unique units?

But apparently, wanting to simply be treated as being equal to all the other Marine books automatically makes us a bunch of WaaC's TFG's.

Wow so hostile. I think you took his reply the wrong way tbh. You might want to check out some of his Alpha Legion batreps to see where he is actually coming from.

If you like Tzeentch why not use the daemons - they are top notch imo .

The hostility probably came about due to his generalizations about people who disagree with him.

I think we can divide this into two views.

Those that feel that via allies and forgeworld that Chaos as an over all faction is fine.

and Those that are upset that Codex Chaos Space marine has become Codex Nurgle.

If your a thousand suns, undivided or Slanneesh player I feel so hard for you because your book doesn't work

Roknar wrote:
At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Also possessed are fearless and the talons are not, so they can run away due to dangerous terrain fails or being swept in combat with a bad ld roll

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Roknar wrote:
At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Also possessed are fearless and the talons are not, so they can run away due to dangerous terrain fails or being swept in combat with a bad ld roll

And they either get shred, ap3 or +1A/+1I, which may not be what we want but its included in the points. Makes me wonder what is going on in those GW heads about remkaing chaos...I'm sure somebody is thinking about it lol

Roknar wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Roknar wrote:
At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Also possessed are fearless and the talons are not, so they can run away due to dangerous terrain fails or being swept in combat with a bad ld roll

And they either get shred, ap3 or +1A/+1I, which may not be what we want but its included in the points. Makes me wonder what is going on in those GW heads about remkaing chaos...I'm sure somebody is thinking about it lol

Except, y'know Warp Talons, get Shred, AP3 and +1 attack for 2 Specialist Weapons, and Jump Packs, included in their price.

Basically as a CSM player, I ask for a level of parity. No, in a game like this there is no way to have perfect parity and I wouldn't want that anyway, but all of the codices should be able to at least compete on their own against other codices without having to add any other books. The CSM codex cannot stand on its own against a good portion of the other armies that are out there and that's the crux of the issue.

It's pretty old and could use an update. At least there is some new chaos in the upcoming wulfen book.

 Deadshot wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Roknar wrote:
At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Also possessed are fearless and the talons are not, so they can run away due to dangerous terrain fails or being swept in combat with a bad ld roll

And they either get shred, ap3 or +1A/+1I, which may not be what we want but its included in the points. Makes me wonder what is going on in those GW heads about remkaing chaos...I'm sure somebody is thinking about it lol

Except, y'know Warp Talons, get Shred, AP3 and +1 attack for 2 Specialist Weapons, and Jump Packs, included in their price.

And basic Wulfen will easily rip Warptalons to bloody mince meat with almost 0 effort.

Warptalons are garbage pure and simple. You literally *must* ally them into a proper Codex: Daemons army to get any levels of support & synergies out of them, and outside of Tzeentch or Nurgle, the rest of the Khornate & Slaanesh options vastly out preform the Talons at their dedicated role.
I'll admit to having fun using Talons in my mono-Tzeentch Daemons, but I don't really pretend that they're worth 30pts a pop... The only reason they even shine at times, is simply because outside of the Boomstick LoC and/or tooled up Screamerstar, Tzeentch has no melee options. (the one thing that Warptalons & Possessed can readily provide, thus, they can be more useful than in any other themed Daemons list)

You then see what 30pts buys you in a Wulfen, and it's hard to keep your sides from splitting in fits of laughter at how abysmally outclassed & pathetic Warptalons are in comparison;
Sure, we get a pair of Lightning claws, a 5++ & Jump packs. But with only a basic Marine statline with which to make use of that gear.
Wulfen get S5/W2/A3, FnP, Run + Charge in the same turn, Fleet, Counter-Attack, give additional bonuses to nearby SW units, AND can strike again when they get killed, even if they've already made their initial attacks!


Warptalons at this point should literally cost maybe 23pts a pop at most, especially considering that they still have to buy a Mark of Chaos (if they want one), and/or an Icon (which can be sniped out), and have exactly 0 force multipliers or supports within their own damn book. (not to mention, they can't even properly use their own deployment gimmick, since CSM's lack any form of reliable Deep Strike mitigation! )

 Deadshot wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Roknar wrote:
At least possessed are cheaper and have 5 strength, comapre them to warp talons who also cost 30 and weep lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit* beat me to it lol

Also possessed are fearless and the talons are not, so they can run away due to dangerous terrain fails or being swept in combat with a bad ld roll

And they either get shred, ap3 or +1A/+1I, which may not be what we want but its included in the points. Makes me wonder what is going on in those GW heads about remkaing chaos...I'm sure somebody is thinking about it lol

Except, y'know Warp Talons, get Shred, AP3 and +1 attack for 2 Specialist Weapons, and Jump Packs, included in their price.

Mmh, but I did't want to start an earnest comparison. Both units are abysmal in comparison to wulfen while being similar in fluff terms.

Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.

I love how so many of the "your codex is fine - just L2P" arguments inevitably always accuse us of simply wanting an OP, 'I-Win' button codex like smEldar...

Here's a shocking concept: not Everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing Nurgle all the time just to stand a chance at even having a close game with actual Chaos Space Marines!

I just want to be able to field a Tzeentch army that doesn't get laughed off the table by even unoptimised Guard or Blood Angels for once...
I want to have options for once that allow me to field my army based off of Tzeentch's affinity for burning everything in sight. (seriously, why no Heavy + Hand flamers for us?)
I'd love to have a reason to take my Possessed & Warptalons as part of an actual CSM army, instead of them only being viable when taken as rejects within a Codex: Daemons army.

Most of all, I just want to see Chaos for once be treated with the same love & attention that every other MEQ army gets, instead of us continuously being gakked on with our identity forever being 'Marines -10'.
If Loyalists can get Chapter Tactics, then why can't we have similar fluffy rules for our iconic Undivided Legions/infamous Renegades? Where are our new toys? Why do Loyalists keep getting significantly better versions of our unique units?

But apparently, wanting to simply be treated as being equal to all the other Marine books automatically makes us a bunch of WaaC's TFG's.

You do realize that not all Marine players think that you shouldn't get your own Legion/Renegade Chapter tactics? Shocking I know, some Loyalist players actually do want you to have nice things. I really hate all the Loyalist bashing I keep seeing every time one of these threads pops up

except melee this edition defiantly drew the short straw.

And I don't view this topic as hating forge world, but rather people being annoyed that they need multiple books and data slates to fight against books that need one. I love forge world and allies but I would be bummed if Codex space Marine was so weak that it becomes codex super friends.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Oh my sweet summer child....

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Okay...so we want to do it easier, better, cheaper, pick two. You know like all the loyalists do, without crutches like FW or allies.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

At this point I assume you're either trolling or you really don't understand the conversation; on the off chance that it's the latter, I'm going to clarify: What CHAOS has across what, like 5 books is NOT the issue here, the issue here is that we basically NEED all of those books to compete with other armies using one book. Coming on here and continuously telling us that Chaos has options because of FW, IA, and whatever other extras are needed for those ignores the main issue of the conversation.

People keep mentioning icons. Warp Talons can't take icons. So no FNP escort for Slaanesh jump lords (Bikes do this better anyway cos majority T5).

They can take up to 5 extra dudes, marks, votlw and the champion can roll up to two gifts of mutation. At least they don't pay full price for a marine + 30 points for lightning claw pair like chosen do .